2006 Bulge Bracket - as seen by Goldman Sachs
The latest unofficial bulge-bracket list (as compiled by partners at Goldman)
2006 Bulge Bracket:
GS, MS, ML, Citigroup, Credit Suisse, UBS, Lehman.
Tier 1:
JPM (should be BB though - in my opinion), Rothschild, Lazard, Barcap, Bear Stearns & Deutsche.
Tier 2:
ABN, Dresdner, HSBC, BNPParibas, SocGen, Bank of America, Wachovia.
Tier 3:
Rabobank, HVB, Commerzbank, Jefferies, CIBC, Piper Jaffray, Cowen, Nomura, RBC and practically all the others.
Niche:
HLHZ, Greenhill, Gleacher, Lexicon, Allen, Evercore.
Not really much of a surprise (apart from JPM)...
I'm not a huge BofA supporter but they are much better than everyone else in their "tier." I'd argue they are better than Barcap in alot of areas, as well.
Agree with JPM in the BB though.
wow i never thought HSBC would be a tier 2 bank. figured it would be higher end tier 3.
Bank of America was ranked 7th in 2nd quarter league tables. Rothschild and Lazard were no where close. Wachovia is 20th. Bank of America is also EXTREMELY close to top competitors.
Bank of America is the 2nd biggest bank in the world now and close to beating out Citi for the #1 spot. They are only 1% below Citi is market share. But that's the great part of being an underdog...lots of time you can beat out the top without them even expecting it. Just read the WSJ article or look at the stock.
Credit Suisse is BB?!?
JPM isn't a BB?? I find it hard to believe this was compiled by Goldman partners.
This list was compiled as an unofficial guide for GS partners and senior MD's going in to pitch for mandates, who to be wary of, who not to give a shit about etc...its purely their OWN perception of who their main competitors are - NOT a general guide.
Credit Suisse is considered BB, they may be having a rough time now and again, but are fundamentally a top investment bank
I agree with your comments on JPM
I can't see where you get BofA from - they are not considered a top investment bank by anyone's criteria - league table positions don't mean shit - its all about PRESTIGE, REPUTATION (over a number of years) and WHAT CLIENTS THINK...
CS (formerly CSFB) has long been a member of "bulge bracket"
Typical newbs would just look at league tables and determine everything. Bank of America still lacks Ibanking prestige. It is very fair to put them at tier 2.
JPM IB is relatively new and it is very fair to put them at tier 1B with Deutsche Bank. UBS should be there too.
I agree with all BB minus UBS.
You can't go by league tables alone. Lazard and Rothschild are much smaller shops than BofA so obviously deals announced and closed are going to be smaller. The fact that they are even in the 10-13 range in the league tables speaks to the amount of revenue they generate on a per banker basis.
BofA is definitely not BB, they still have a long way to go. Credit Suisse and UBS are definitely pulling away from Deutsche in the Americas, so I can buy that they are borderline BB.
JPM is definetly BB. It's a dawg eat dawg world.
HSBC is tier 2 - in the same prestige/class as ABN, Dresdner etc...its definately much better than Rabo and HVB...
there was just 4 posts on this thread within 10 seconds! this is obviously stuff people care about
I guess you are right...but I prefer to be associated with a firm that generates top revenue and pays top of the street. BofA might not have been around long, but that's the beauty of it. They went from being unknown to top of league tables in 5 years. I think that says a lot.
The only time the phrase "bulge bracket" should matter to you is when you're looking at job postings that don't mention the firm name, so you can get a grasp of what banks you're dealing with. Just an FYI, but from a recruiter standpoint BB means "top ten bank (JPM, MS, GS, ML, Leh, CS, DB, etc.)."
If they want to represent the top 3-5 banks they say "top tier" or "top tier BB." So the discussion about what BB is not really relevant, unless you're trying to impress some B&T chick.
I think we're getting a bit mixed up - this is NOT a general list to be used to classify various investment banks - rather its ONE bank's view on who their main competitors are and how they grade the INTENSITY of that competition.
I'm quite sure that other banks may carry similar lists and they would differ quite markedly beyond the usual suspects (GS, MS, ML, Citi, Leh, UBS)
love B&T chicks...Jersey girls are hot.
Tier 3 should merely read "everyone else", because none of those banks would compete with GS to any relevelant degree. Maybe unless its 2002 again and GS bankers are trolling in the MM.
I wonder why GS don't see JPM in the same competitive bracket as Citigroup - I guess it must be the latter's aggressive use of its balance sheet to win deals...
What side of the Atlantic are we talking? In Europe, BoA is precisely nowhere, and merits the position. Equally, JPM in Europe I would consider top tier. But then again so is Deutsche. And BarCap is only relevant on the debt side (and derivs / commods) where they beat the crap out of almost everybody in Europe (except Deutsche and Citi)...
So it's an interesting perspective, but not something to get your knickers in a twist over.
I agree, it looks European. Regardless, who cares about this.
this also depends on the industry/product don't forget. No one cares about "overall" rankings becuase they don't make sense in pitches.
I think this list perhaps takes a view on the 'average' of the rankings of banks across product areas and geographies...
Typically for an M&A mandate, there's financing involved, so all the products are actually interrelated...hence it makes sense for someone like GS to take a view on its competition in that sense.
Surely Jefferies and Cowen are better than Rabobank and HVB??
Wachovia as a tier 2? No way - more like tier 5 or 6...
Would you rather work at HLHZ over any of the Tier 3 and maybe some of Tier 2?
The MDs at GS must be screwing too much analyst chicks to know who their closest competitors are. The way JPM and Citi use their BS to win deal mandates is something which the other BBs can't replicate.
HSBC is also Tier 1 I think - their M&A division is the next biggest thing
shouldn't we wait until it actually become the "biggest thing" as opposed to terminally being the "next"...?
Bear is awesome. They gave me an offer after one round.
i agree- Citi is definitely one of the best on the street and is very well positioned. It competes directly with GS and is probably beating MS at the moment. lots of momentum and definitely has more room to grow this year. Won't be surprised if it beats GS this year in IBD.
ofcourse that is your assessment, CITIBANKER
this is the best thread by far on this forum.
btw, Lazard is the shiat
You just can't look at last year's Thomson league table. Rankings have prestige build ins too. Brown is a better name better overall school than Michigan but Michigan possible sends plenty of top candidates into wall street.
I agree with JPM in this tier 1. Although I like to call BB tier 1A and the tier 1 here tier 1B. BofA will get to tier 1B soon. But right now grouping them at tier 2 is still fare. I do NOT agrees with putting UBS at tier 1A (BB). They should be ranked along the lines of Deutsche Bank.
I disagree with the comment of "practically the rest others." Jefferies, CIBS, and Piper (solid MM) are way better than "everyone else" this third tier list is fare but the rest of others should go into a tier 4 or unranked category. BB&T, Keybank, SunTrust should be amongst members of this 4th tier.
why did you say the exact same thing in two different posts?
probably replied to 2 different posts without looking at what I just wrote.
Looking back its crazy how much perception has changed.
Piper Jaffray was still 3rd tier.
PLEASE READ THIS
banker88, I do not work for piper jaffray, first of all
Second of all I really suggest that you and others stop going through so damn much trouble to point out piper, jefferies and other banks are so horrible when in fact they are not
i could diss on all the banks with some true facts if i wanted to but most of you and others keep on keeping on for no apparent reason highlighting banks you want to diss
why are you wasting everyone's time, as we have limited time to surf around and I am goign to keep calling you and others like fembota and fordhamaster and 1styearbanker and others and i will comtinue to defecate on you and those who can't just be cool and have fun
kids have to put these firms on their resumes and anyone that gets a job at any of these firms is doing well for themselves and i can tell you many stories of flunkies who worked at goldman sachs and great bankers at jefferies and piper jaffary
so, not trying to waste anyone's time whatsoever, quite the contrary, so let's all do what we can and even those that will be normal human beings and stop using this board to try so damned intentionally to unnecessarily and inaccurately bash other firms
if you work at goldman sachs, then what good does it do to try to denigrate other firms (see their business principals) and if you're denigrating other firms, you're just proving that you don't belong at arguably the best firm in the world
http://www2.goldmansachs.com/careers/our-firm/basics/index.html Our business is highly competitive, and we aggressively seek to expand our client relationships. However, we must always be fair competitors and must never denigrate other firms.
also, i suggest that you and anyone else reading this post also go over to this thread and see what the owners of the site and some of us more experienced gorillas are saying about people like I've mentioned in this post
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/signing-out
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