CIB Credit Risk J.P. Morgan

dob1114's picture
Rank: Senior Chimp | 26

So the threads about CIB (Credit & Market) Risk are very dismal and are basically arguing about FO vs. MO, but I wanted someone to shed light on the program itself. Because of my school and connections I can get not the CIB Risk Program, but it will be my Junior Year so I want to turn it into a FT offer and want to have a better idea before I apply, shadow analyst, etc.

So basic questions:
- What are the hours (in comparison to pure IB)? How much better? Is it worth it?
- Bonuses? Compared to IB?
- Exit Opportunities? Same as IB or slightly less (I'm thinking HF more than PE).
-Interview Questions for SA? Any technicals? Or is it basic things like "when did you take a risk?"
- Major Differences between Credit and Market. (Hours/pay wise)

Lastly, I have opportunities in Treasury Servies and S&T, but really like the CIB Risk Program, because it is very unique at JPM as compared to other BB's.

If I don't go JPM, I will most likely take a Treasury Services role because of the hours and decent pay. Any recommendations on this?

I have a Series 6 and Series 63 License, which will make it easier for S&T, but those licenses are kind of useless for many S&T roles. I honestly like the eat what you kill mentality, because I have experience in the field.

Credit Risk Group at JPM Explained

User @oLookAbear, a corporate finance analyst, shared a detailed post about their experience in the group:

oLookAbear - Corporate Finance Analyst:

Hours for Credit Risk

Depends on group - Corporate Groups (TMT, CHR especially) usually work the most, FIG Groups more relaxed (Asset managers/hedge funds work the most). Hours can vary depending on deal flow/staffing issues, but usually around 8/9am-9/11 pm for moderate groups and later for the busier groups. Most corporate analysts usually come in on the weekends and some FIG analysts do as well (if you are on a deal, usually you come in from what I've seen). It really depends on the group/deal flow/staffing. Hours are better than JPM IB most of the time unless you are on some megadeal.

Exit Opps from JPM Risk

Less than IB, but people do well. I know a lot of people that went to M7 and other top business schools. You get some exposure to modeling, but usually only the credit POV/DCF. Some people internally lateral, some go to credit funds, some go to corporate development/executive training programs/portfolio risk, some get promoted, etc. Others do manage to get into PE/HF, buts it's not super common. Best way to check is just to do a Linkedin search.

Bonus Pay for Credit Risk vs. Banking

Base/relocation same, bonus is at a slight discount ($5000 from what I hear) to IB for analyst years. Obviously as you go up the totem pole the disparity grows especially post-associate years. Much better hourly pay in my opinion.

What is a Credit Risk Interview Like with JP Morgan?

Interview: Analyzing/valuing a company, financial statements, behavioral, credit issues, your resume, etc... Prepare like an IB interview and you should be fine. There are some IB risk interviews in the WSO database.

I guess I can't post links, but if you Google "focus on the downside, WSO" you should get the forum thread. That was helpful in getting a basic overview of credit and what you might be doing.

What is Working in the Group Like?

Credit/Market: In IB risk you basically work as the credit analyst with a senior credit banker on the deals in which JPM uses its balance sheet to contribute to a facility (ex. acquisition financing, revolving credit facilities, term loans) and perform annual reviews on the portfolio of companies you have assigned to you within your group. If you are the FIG side, you might monitor some of the trading facilities that your companies also have. It has many of the functions that corporate banking at other banks have (you do talk with clients), which is a good experience considering JPM gets invited to a lot of deals/facilities.

JPM Group Culture

Other: All the people I met were very nice and the culture is great (at least in my group and most other summer's I talked to felt the same way). JPM is a great brand for whatever you do end up doing. Your training is the same as Banking.

Read more about JP Morgan Chase on the Wall Street Oasis Company Database.

Read More About JPM on Wall Street Oasis

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Comments (72)

Best Response
Aug 14, 2014

This is as a first year analyst about to start:

Hours: Depends on group - Corporate Groups (TMT, CHR especially) usually work the most, FIG Groups more relaxed (Asset managers/hedge funds work the most). Hours can vary depending on deal flow/staffing issues, but usually around 8/9am-9/11 pm for moderate groups and later for the busier groups. Most corporates analysts usually come in on the weekends and some FIG analysts do as well (if you are on a deal, usually you come in from what I've seen). It really depends on the group/deal flow/staffing. Hours are better than JPM IB most of the time unless you are on some megadeal.

Exit Opps: Less than IB, but people do well. I know a lot of people that went to M7 and other top business schools. You get some exposure to modeling, but usually only the credit POV/DCF. Some people internally lateral, some go to credit funds, some go to corporate development/executive training programs/portfolio risk, some get promoted, etc. Others do manage to get into PE/HF, buts its not super common. Best way to check is just to do a Linkedin search.

Bonus: Base/relocation same, bonus is at a slight discount ($5000 from what I hear) to IB for analyst years. Obviously as you go up the totem pole the disparity grows especially post-associate years. Much better hourly pay in my opinion.

Interview: Analyzing/valuing a company, financial statements, behavioral, credit issues, your resume, etc... Prepare like an ib interview and you should be fine. There are some IB risk interviews in the WSO database.

I guess I can't post links, but if you Google "focus on the downside, WSO" you should get the forum thread. That was helpful in getting a basic overview of credit and what you might be doing.

Credit/Market: In IB risk you basically work as the credit analyst with a senior credit banker on the deals in which JPM uses its balance sheet to contribute to a facility (ex. acquisition financing, revolving credit facilities, term loans) and perform annual reviews on the portfolio of companies you have assigned to you within your group. If you are the FIG side, you might monitor some of the trading facilities that your companies also have. It has many of the functions that corporate banking at other banks have (you do talk with clients), which is a good experience considering JPM gets invited to a lot of deals/facilities.

Market- Market hours?, higher pay I assume the further you go up. Harder to get a return offer as a summer analyst that's for sure.

Other: All the people I met were very nice and the culture is great (at least in my group and most other summer's I talked to felt the same way). JPM is a great brand for whatever you do end up doing. Your training is the same as Banking.

PM me if you have any questions! I hope I was unbiased.

    • 5
Aug 20, 2014

"JPM uses its balance sheet to contribute to a facility" could you elaborate on this more. Or point me in the right direction as to where I can learn about it myself. Thanks for your post! Very helpful.

Nov 18, 2014

Hello. I found this post very useful. I have an assessment centre coming up for the London CIB position in a couple of days. I too, like [email protected], would like to know more about how JPM uses its balance sheet to facilitate an acquisition. Thanks!

Nov 21, 2014

Hey I can give a little perspective; I did an internship in credit risk. When people say that they are using the bank's balance sheet to facilitate an acquisition, they are referring to the different types of lending capabilities the bank can provide. For example, a bank can provide revolving credit facilities, term loans, or bridge loans. These type of credit instruments can help increase leverage and therefore returns. In the case of an acquisition, a bridge loan can be used as a form of financing to give the borrowers time to raise money through the public market. For example, lets say Walmart wants to buy Target. Walmart will finance the acquisition partially with debt and will have to go to a bank with a large balance sheet to lend them cash.

    • 2
Aug 14, 2014

Also, the title of this thread is very misleading lol.

Aug 14, 2014

Yeah, but your post was insightful. +1!

Aug 14, 2014

Also, I thought you were talking about a markets job like sales or trading, not market risk. As for that, I have no idea about pay/return rates.

Nov 28, 2014

thanks for @"oLookAbear" and @"packmate" you guys answer really helped me a lot.

Nov 28, 2014

Jesus christ man, thats already really awesome. A BB brand name will definitely help for next summer if you're aiming for BB IBD. And you can probably go through the mobility process or just network your ass off for a spot with the IBD summer class next year. Congratz!

Nov 28, 2014
Dreamgazing:

Jesus christ man, thats already really awesome. A BB brand name will definitely help for next summer if you're aiming for BB IBD. And you can probably go through the mobility process or just network your ass off for a spot with the IBD summer class next year. Congratz!

I'm not sure if Dreamgazing is being sarcastic, but working in risk does not improve your chances significantly of breaking into investment banking. If this is your sophomore summer, then you will have plenty of time to build on your experience. If you want to work in IBD, you should be getting IB experience, i.e. aimming for boutiques first. With that said, it certainly won't hurt you either.

Also, internal laterals are not very easy to pull off, especially coming from a middle office position. I don't have any insight into JPMorgan's specific policies with internal laterals but I doubt it's very mobile.

Nov 28, 2014
Dreamgazing:

Jesus christ man, thats already really awesome. A BB brand name will definitely help for next summer if you're aiming for BB IBD. And you can probably go through the mobility process or just network your ass off for a spot with the IBD summer class next year. Congratz!

Dreamgazing:

I would recommend doing no-name IB. Because like as you said, if you can get interviews regardless of brand name (which I think rarely does anything unless its FO BB - ER / S&T / IBD before Junior SA), the experience at IB would help you better answer questions in interviews and give you a better reason to why you want to do IBD now that you have experience.

So yeah.. this really confuses me as to whether or not you're being sarcastic

Nov 28, 2014

Yeah, I apologize for the confusion. I think it differs based on the difference in situation. OP here is barely 2 months into school and has an offer from JPM for next summer. He can add on experience for IB at any boutique during the school year (if hes interning near or in a city), and will still be able to add BB brand name this upcoming summer. Hes in a great position. I'm guessing OPs offer is a official summer program offer, which adds even more weight considering that firms would want to retain talent if they perform well. Internal laterals for summers are a lot more easy as a sophomore. They are evaluating the intern based on performance and if he/she manages to get an MD to vouch for him/her, then ibd interviews are definitely attainable. This isn't as hard as a full time commitment (assuming a later after junior year summer SA), since they are essentially just signing him on for another summer.

But the other thread's situation was an unofficial unstructured internship (but brand name) from what I remember and the OP didn't have IB experience. He was a few months away from the summer and was talking about a school year internship in the Fall. He had a strong GPA and strong experience, so the brand name would not be of as much help. In that case, solidifying IB experience and why IB would be more valuable in my opinion.

Nov 28, 2014

Are you 2nd year?

Nov 28, 2014

I graduate in 2015 but will most likely do a masters degree straight after graduation. Currently doing a placement year at a BB in a MO-role as there are no FO-roles available at any banks for placement year students in the UK. Advice?

Nov 28, 2014

was this ur top choice?

Nov 28, 2014

you'll be able to see a lot of confidential information and will have excellent exposure to the inner workings of the different elements at JP. Risk management at JP is an interesting experience.

hehehehe, VAR, basel II, KMV, creditmetrics, here you come....

Nov 28, 2014

it is within the IB Summer analyst program though, and it was not even close to my top choice

Nov 28, 2014

hahaha, i love BB. You probably don't know squat about risk management either, I take it?

Nov 28, 2014

How bad is this compared to like an industry group?

Nov 28, 2014

So is this not even I banking?

Nov 28, 2014

So is this not even I banking?

Nov 28, 2014

geez, you don't know anything about investment banking....AND you got hired...

risk management is middle office. M&A advisory and corp fin. is mostly the traditional "glory" roles in front office.

Nov 28, 2014

Are you sure this is a typical Risk Management deal?

I am in the Corp Fin summer analyst program...

I guess I should be pissed off?

Nov 28, 2014

"I guess I should be pissed off?"

Since you're obviously in it for the money, maybe?

This entity, you know, called the "investment bank" has a myraid different positions and roles within departments. M&A advisory, corp fin, capital markets, syndicate, Sales/trading/research, blah blah blah.

Of course, there's the dreaded back office operations too. Perhaps you should be happy you didn't land there?

Or perhaps you'll grow like the term, "Value at Risk?"

Nov 28, 2014

CCM is in the investment bank; it's not really middle office - from my understanding, its closer to corporate banking in a lot of ways. the people in it are quite nice, and i've been told the hours are generally better than other groups (again, similar to corp banking)...

Nov 28, 2014

the question remains... is this going to affect my long run future carreer prospects?

Nov 28, 2014

How does the pay in credit compare to IB?

Nov 28, 2014

Client Credit Management is not considered front office as it is distinctly middle office. If you are looking at PE/HF as exit options, CCM would not be the place to be in. You would be better off doing traditional banking like M&A, or other product/industry group coverage which gets you the real banking knowledge/experience.

Nov 28, 2014

beachbum..did you talk to anyone or "reach out" to anybody in the groups you wanted to be in? If not, you just got put somewhere where noone else wanted to be.

Nov 28, 2014

um...what pick was it? How is lev fin at JP, heard good things..

Nov 28, 2014

If its part of the GCRM group then you could equate it to front office , at least the pay and bonus. (GCRM is global credit risk management)

And if that is teh group you are in well you are in luck. It's more difficult to get into that then m&a thats for sure.

Nov 28, 2014

when I was SA at DCM there was this LBO that involved CCRM and DCM. basically CCRM looks at the balance sheet of JPM and evaluates the risks of the deal and makes decision how much of the bank's own money will be put down for the deal. so strictly speaking it's separate to banking - in fact there was chinese wall between IB and the CCRM part of the floor.

Nov 28, 2014

friend worked there as SA, it is not LIKE, it IS corporate banking. And the hours are great, you get out around 7-8 and you can easily leverage it to get into IB when FT recruiting season comes along. Actually the friend in CCRM transferred into IB at JPM

Nov 28, 2014

transfer into IB? GCRM is already part of the IB franchise...the only difference is that they are involved one on one with a lot of coverage groups in JPM...and the last time I checked, it was a really prestigious group

Nov 28, 2014

Is there any chance for a lateral to sales and trading?

Nov 28, 2014

If its gcrm then yes. If you were a full time though you'd obviously have to hang around for a while first.

Nov 28, 2014

There is no GCRM in the states, it is grouped into the Corp. Fin dept, with the rest of the classical banking groups.

Does anyone no how the analyst and long term salary (allin) would compare to banking... im assuming its less than banking.

Nov 28, 2014

pardon my language beachbum, but you are coming across to me (and perhaps even some other iboasisers) as a paranoid lunatic.

Few points:

  1. GCRM or Credit Risk Management is IB-At JPM NY, it is called IB CRM
  2. CRM would give you the most exposure to a broad range of industries more than most groups at JPM which are highly specialized
  3. If you hate your group as much as you sound, perhaps you should talk to HR about it so you don't have to worry about lateraling to S&T or earning below those in groups like SLF (even though as several have said, this never was and never will be a problem- you'll earn the same as the rest of your counterparts in Corp. Fin)

My best advice for you is to ask for a group change-
You obviously don't appreciate CRM as you keep coming up with paranoid propositions~

Nov 28, 2014

The first half is a good summary of what they do at CRM- If you absolutely hate it, again on Monday, ask HR for a group change

http://usibcareers.jpmorgan.com/content/profile_29...

Nov 28, 2014

How is this group viewed from the outside. Are the exit opps coming from an analyst stint completely different from traditional groups?

Nov 28, 2014

once in, you can never leave it again.. everybody outside banking will regard you as the moron of your class..no exit opp for you mate...

you are the one who couldn't get a decent sector or product team in IBD and therefore got GCRM , the moron of the class 2007!

you are doomed!!!

Nov 28, 2014

are you serious or just being a dick

Nov 28, 2014

could someone give me an honest answer.

Nov 28, 2014

yea you're basically fucked... sorry! the path leads to operations and then commerical banking

Nov 28, 2014

how do you know this?? and why would it be in corp fin?

Nov 28, 2014

if you are really this worried, call up someone that you met in the group and ask them some more questions about the roles/responsibilities. if you really want to, ask where most analysts end up after 2 years in CCRM. i honestly don't know. i have to imagine though that someone you met along the way in the interview process can enlighten you a little more than some of the sarcastic posters around here.

Nov 28, 2014

credit risk management is essential to every bank that puts its balance sheet on the line...my team deals w/ credit every time we underwrite a deal...u obviously can't have your bankers going out and winning mandates with no one to answer to..they'll promise the clients anything to get the deal...clearly bankers don't always have the most unbiased perspective...credit risk management is supposed to supply that perspective...i'm no expert, but they quantify the risk in every proposed opportunity in terms of the firm's own risk ratings and decide whether it's acceptable or not...they make sure that the bank does not concentrate too much risk in certain areas..but risk management is an intergral part of the execution process and they work in step w/ the bankers...the credit execs are definitely very important in the company...and they get treated well by the bankers, cuz they need them...
keep in mind this is only applicable in situations where the bank is putting its B/S on the line aka underwriting as opposed to advising...
at the end of the day, banking isn't just about jetsetting around meeting w/ clients all the time..then again if that's what you want to do, so be it...but this is not a crappy job and u will learn plenty that will be applicable for when u're actually looking for a permanent job...

Nov 28, 2014

Right, as you may of guessed I'm from europe and familiar with credit management at JP as GCRM.

The salary scale in GCRM (Lets just call it that) its 200k for a mid level associote from what I'm told (I used to work at JP and know a few guys in it}. No idea about bonus.

Don't worry your pretty little head about exit opp's you can move around in JP very easily once in the group (that said you can do it from every other group as well)

Ultimitley if its not the group you want to go into then dont.

As far as people saying its a dead end career path they haven't a clue.

Nov 28, 2014

200K GBP as an associate? that's impossible...even including bonus...

Nov 28, 2014

Nope, these guys run projects where the global head of various desks call them down to thank them for the work well done.

I'm just going on second hand knowledge here when talking about roles - but from my understanding some guys within GCRM are highly thought of, when they run various projects about the banks exposure and so forth they are invited down to the floor by the head of that product.

I used to live with one of these guys. He worked insane hours but had so many opportunities. But he loved risk and thats where he wanted to stay.

Nov 28, 2014

Compare it to the likes of Deutche Banks credit group which has under 100 people globally. These areas are not as mainstream dn easy to get into such as trading, sales banking etc.

Once you get some experience its very hard to replace you.

Nov 28, 2014

you might be right, risk might be very challenging and the rewards might be excellent...

however when we are talking about vp level and md level... GCRM is not revenue generating I assume the total salary package will never be at the same level as a vp or md in IBD ,not even 50% because GCRM is not revenue generating...

Nov 28, 2014

So is there a rationale that anyone would want placement into this group over coverage/product groups, other than if someone particularly wants to work with credit?

Nov 28, 2014

less menial work more challenging work better work life balance..

Nov 28, 2014

you will get a small exposure to many of the different product & coverage groups (aka you kind of get to shop around for what you really like working in).

Nov 28, 2014

http://www.ibankingoasis.com/node/1222
More info can be found on the thread above. The topic has been discussed before and unlike what student22 has said, CCM is revenue generating and not a cost centre. CCM comprises of corporate bankers who structure syndicated loans, mezzanine financing, bridging loans, LBO/acquisition financing etc etc.

In fact CCM used to be called Corporate Banking until Aug last year when some smartass MD decided that Client Credit Management sounded better. How I knew all these? I was in JPM Corporate Banking last summer.

Nov 28, 2014

Was your internship within corporate finance?

Also, where are you full time?

Nov 28, 2014

GCRM has been around for a long long time in EU.

Student22 gcrm is not standard market risk. You deal with clients and approve various undertakings against the banks bs

Nov 28, 2014

market risk = middle office
GCRM = front office

?

Nov 28, 2014

I actually work in this group so let me clear this up. Market risk is more quantitative e.g. risk coverage for traders, considered MO. Credit risk is client coverage e.g. has hybrid roles debt rating, company valuations, etc. Credit risk works on same deals with m&a ppl and get same bonus and salary. Market risk is MO and Credit Risk is FO.

Nov 28, 2014

I actually work in this group so let me clear this up. Market risk is more quantitative e.g. risk coverage for traders, considered MO. Credit risk is client coverage e.g. has hybrid roles debt rating, company valuations, etc. Credit risk works on same deals with m&a ppl and get same bonus and salary. Market risk is MO and Credit Risk is FO.

Nov 28, 2014
arnoldyu:

I actually work in this group so let me clear this up. Market risk is more quantitative e.g. risk coverage for traders, considered MO. Credit risk is client coverage e.g. has hybrid roles debt rating, company valuations, etc. Credit risk works on same deals with m&a ppl and get same bonus and salary. Market risk is MO and Credit Risk is FO.

This is Yu
http://www.linkedin.com/in/arnoldyu

Nov 28, 2014

how do you know this??

Resume Writing

Jan 23, 2019

Based on the dated responses above, I believe there is a lot of misconception surrounding the JPM credit risk role. It's a unique program. It's changed a lot recently. And I believe it's important for future candidates to get the full picture.

Short summary: If you go into this role with the goal of moving to investment banking, you are better off taking an actual banking job at a lower-ranked firm. Pay is insulting and exit opps meagre; but if you really value culture and work/life balance, it could make sense for you. Recently there have been tons of changes that signal the bank caring less about the role (aligning it away from investment banking and more towards risk management - associate 1 pay cut from 125k to 105k with NO SABBATICAL; pushing for 'automation' projects where company financials are imported directly from CapIQ/scrubbed by a team in India, having automatic systems generate charts and information for credit approval memorandums - projects that everyone detests because they are extremely inefficient and buggy, and basically says to the juniors "you are no needed"); while you will have great exposure to the debt side of things (working a lot with lev fin, DCM) and the amount of learning is really a function of how much you want to put into it (you can dig through the dataroom, volunteer to work on the model, help out with preparing committee materials, putting together decks, sharing your analysis directly with other IB groups), the nature of the role is not client-facing and not revenue generating (with the exception of going to bank meetings, negotiating credit documentations, and the rare opportunity of meeting with the company when they are hosted by coverage or corporate banking); you will have a dearth of resources (credit risk uses CapIQ while the entire investment bank uses FactSet - this is really fucking ridiculous; a whole team is going to share one account... being in credit, you likely won't even have your own Moodys or S&P Rating accounts. You are not going to have access to resources like Debtwire / Xtract); mainly due to a combination of the factors mentioned above and below, talent pool is diluted - you likely won't see people from target schools; this year's recruiting efforts have significantly lower budget; the group won't be travelling to campuses and everything will be done online; the common candidates are laterals from the commercial bank risk and kids from 2nd tier schools.

Facts & opinions:

-Same summer and full-time training program as the investment banking analysts, with an additional 3-day (summer) / 1-week credit-specific training

-2.5 year program

-Same base salary at the analyst level as investment banking: currently 85k 1st year, 90k 2nd year, 95k 3rd year; because of the 2.5 year program, for full-time, your first 6 months will be at 85k, and you move to 90k for the next 12 months; associate pay is shit - 1st year associate has 105k base, with NO SABBATICAL - this is a recent change to the program and EVERYONE IS PISSED OFF ABOUT IT

*Info below pertains to the corporate floor (one floor is all FIG, one floor is corporates - corporates are divided into industry groups, real estate, diversified industries, consumer healthcare retail, TMT, natural resources, power & utilities)

-Bonus is significantly lower than investment banking. You will get a trivial stub bonus for your first 6 months of $10k (that's $20k pro-rated); your first 'full' bonus will be paid out in January, about 1.5 years into the role. The criteria for determining bonus is different from that in investment banking. Analysts are judged on three criteria as opposed to a letter-grade rating system. The three criteria are basically business results, teamwork/leadership, and communication. 1st year bonus tops out at 55k but the average performer/median/mode gets only 30k. But be aware that you will be looking at a 1.5-year all-in bonus of only 40k if you are middle of the pack.

-Out of the most recent class of 3rd analysts, probably only 1 or 2 are staying for associate. Everyone else has left. This is never a good signal. Another negative signal is that MBA associates is simply not a thing for credit risk.

-Exit opps are there but very limited. If you want to pursue internal transfer, you have to network very hard. You will take at least a year back if you transfer to investment banking. Pretty much no one goes into PE; no direct HF exits; common paths are moving to investment banking or, more recently, going to direct lenders.

-Culture and hours are generally good: few assholes on the floor; hours wise, if you are efficient, you shouldn't be leaving after 10, 11pm on a weekday unless there is a very fast turnaround. You can expect maybe a half-day of work over the weekend on average.

-So what do you actually do? "Credit risk at JPM is different" - this is emphasized a lot and I believe it is true. There are essentially three parts to the role: 1. On transactions where JPM has a role on a revolver/TLB/bond/bridge financing, you will be conducting due diligence through the whole process and forming an internal, unbiased view on the company or transaction. These transactions could be either private equity or corporate deals.

Will slowly add more information through comments

    • 5
Mar 5, 2019
Oct 13, 2019

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Oct 21, 2019
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