Columbia Value Investing Program Placement
I know this has been covered previously, just thought I would bring it back up since I'm considering this program. How is this program viewed from perspective employers? Without prior buy-side or equity research experience would this program be a good launching pad to the buy-side?
It's a good launching pad although it would be hard for you to get in as you don't have any prior experience.
Not true.
Go research gamco investors. Most of the company went to columbia. Could graduate columbia, go their as a buy side analyst, then make pm at some point.
One guy went from big 4 audit to columbia to gamco research analyst, to pm.
http://www.gabelli.com/
No I don't work there
Gabelli went to columbia, so this isn't surprising. It truly is amazing what a top business school can do for you. It allows you to go from auditing to asset management, for example. This alone is worth several hundred thousand dollars at least.
Columbia value investing has amazing placement. Most of the faculty is adjunct lecturers who are portfolio managers at top value funds, so if you impress a prof, it's not at all unrealistic that you can get a job at one of those funds. In addition, top hedge funds and IM firms regularly recruit at columbia.
Thanks for the responses. Can anybody attest to how difficult it is to enter the program without prior experience? I see on the application that it says it is open to career changers, which I would be.
So you apply for an MBA and from there you try to get into the program? Is that correct? I understand that one can also take some courses during the MBA without applying but assuming one would aim higher than Columbia if there was no value invest program this seems risky.
Yes, it's very competitive to get into and you won't know if you are in until after start the MBA program. If you don't get in, you can still take a number of the classes through the program. If you are a career switcher and don't get into the program, you fall-back would be do internships with NY hedge funds during your semesters.
No you can't take any of these courses as undergrads. The supply of spots isn't even enough to satisfy the demand from MBA/EMBA students. Besides, you won't understand the topics covered without having working in the industry before.
From what I understand CBS students can take a few of the classes in the Value Investing Program without being admitted, but there are certain classes which are only available to those accepted to the program.
Any more color on the process once you're admitted into CBS? Interviews, competitive bidding, etc etc?
Anyone?
interested as well
I'm a second year in the program now. Prior posters have it right. After you are accepted into CBS, you apply for the Value Investing (VI) program at the end of your first year. For this year, about 120 applied and 40 got in.
Experience plays a role in getting in but the application is key. The people that I know that are genuinely passionate about equity investing, understand the value style, and worked their butt off on the application were accepted. The app involves essays and, more importantly, a stock pitch. There's also an interview with the head of the program.
When you're into the program, you're guaranteed spots in 5 classes all relating to the value investing discipline. All the courses are highly regarded and you have the benefit of taking them with really sharp people (since it's all VI people in the classes, everybody knows their stuff). You get an alum mentor who works in the field. There are some events just for the VI students and some intern/job opportunities are routed through the VI program.
One thing I should point out: the program is absolutely not necessary to pursue hfs, mutual funds or equity research from Columbia. A lot of people from outside the program go into positions in the field. And while the VI program certainly helps people get into good buyside shops (or the independent ER firms that I think are worth their salt), it doesn't make anything a piece of cake.
If you have questions, please let me know. I'm happy to answer to the best of my ability.
Thank you bluerlion for clarification of the program. Good to know you don't need to be specifically in the program. If you were in the columbia MBA program is there a way to still network with professionals at VI firms?
Acelion, yes. The VI program has certainly put me in touch with some good people but I've met more via fellow students at CBS, speakers at events, recruiters, or just reaching out to people. Also, being in NY really helps. So many in the HF world are either here, Conn. or visiting NY every few months.
My philosophy on networking for anybody who's curious: I think networking successfully really depends on a couple things. The first is knowing your stuff. If you get in front of a bunch of managers, but just sound like an idiot all the time, you're not helping yourself and you're wasting the manger's time. (Not to say that you won't sound like an idiot sometimes, the trick is to only do it a couple times and then get better.)
The second is to politely hustle. It's key to reach out to people and get yourself out there. At the same time, doing this respectfully I think is really important. I've watched more than a couple people that are smart and have hustle hurt themselves because of the way they come across.
bluerlion, aside from major mutual funds, how has HF recruiting been like at columbia? Do a lot of hedge funds come to campus, or is it mostly done through individual networking?
Go through the Graham and Doddsville archives, look up the students mentioned on Linkedin. HF recruiting is alive and well in the program. They are great reads too.
http://www.grahamanddoddsville.net/?page_id=689
So first of all, what Grayfox said. If you're interested in the program or value investing at all, those newsletters are simply amazing. Really some great interviews. Between that and Linkedin you can also start to get an idea of where people went after school.
I'll try to break down how recruiting/getting a job or summer internship works in the buy-side equities space in my experience at business school. Obviously could be very different for other people.
On-Campus Recruiting - The bigger firms do this. They come on campus very early in the school year (Sept/Oct). Interview a bunch of people at once and then start whittling it down. In terms of the buyside, this is generally the big asset managers, mutual funds, larger long-only or long concentrated funds, and insurance investment groups.
Job Postings - There's job postings separate from the on-campus recruiting. Most hedge funds don't do the on-campus process because they post on an as-needed basis. Usually, they post later in the year because they're not planning their hiring needs six months to a year out like the companies doing on-campus. At this point in the year they post a lot of part-time internships, which are helpful and do sometimes turn into jobs for people.
Networking - Obviously, there's a lot of that and a lot of openings can be word of mouth so this definitely leads to stuff.
Resume Books - I know the Value Investing program has a resume book that gets distributed. There are other ones too associated with various clubs and groups on campus. The right person reading the right resume does lead to phone calls and opportunities.
Thanks for this. Very informative and helpful.
Aside from the long-equity shops, do any multistrategy hedge funds (in particular macro/fx/rates) recruit at columbia? If I'm not mistaken, soros, sac, citadel, viking, all do company presentations at columbia.
Yes multi-strategies do but generally a bit later though. I know Citadel and Viking didn't come til January last year. No idea how much posting or recruiting Soros does. If you're really curious, I would reach out to the CBS alums at those firms to get an idea of how they ended up there.
Testing reply on mobile app
Thanks for the write-up. For career switchers what is a common summer internship path? As you stated the big firms seem to come pretty early in the year so as a career switching person you won't know if you are going to get into the VI program or not. You also won't have previous experience to fall back on. Is it more common to try to land an internship with the larger banks and then your second year leverage the VI program and contacts for a full-time offer in HF or AM?
Hey Mappleby, I think it depends whether the career switcher is coming from a non-finance or finance background.
If you're coming from investment banking, equity research or private equity, you have a better shot at landing a HF or AM internship and eventual job.
If you're coming from non-finance, the switch can be more complicated. A lot of non-finance to finance career switchers go after I-banking for this reason. They know they're going to a place that is going to train them well and set them up for opportunities down the line.
Most HFs don't want to hire people that need a lot of time to get up to speed. Some of the bigger asset managers, mutual funds and long-onlys are different though. They're more willing to hire based on potential.
So to answer your questions directly, I think that most people set on HF or AM at school try to get internships during the summer in that field. However, most of them aren't switching from a completely unrelated field.
If you want, PM me your background and I'll try to give you more tailored info.
This is an incredible useful thread. Im yet to apply to CBS - but VI program is the reason Im applying. Had a few queries. Are any CBS VI Program guys still tuned in on this thread?
Have you seen applicants with PE background who start in J term get HF jobs? I'm considering applying for J term and want to understand my odds of landing a full time spot at a HF. I know that J termers can't join VI. Thanks in advance
This is wrong. J-termers can definitely join VI. A good buddy of mine was recently accepted as a J-Termer.
Thanks - this is helpful. Do you have a sense if it is more difficult to get in as a j termer or is the bar the same?
Also has anyone seen guys with PE backgrounds who work hard land a HF spot without getting into the VI program? Thanks in advance
To my surprise, I still get messages about this thread in my inbox from people curious about the Value Investing Program. If there's more questions posted here, I'll do my best to answer them. I can't promise any special wisdom, but I did do the program and work in the industry.
This is a great thread. Thanks for contributing bluerlion. I have a couple of questions about the program.
(1) This question is kind of the opposite of the OP's question, but does it make sense for people who are already at a hedge fund to go to CBS and do the Value Investing Program (BTW, I am in banking right now recruiting for hedge funds)? I would think so since you are exposed to the way a lot of different successful investors think, and you get to interact with a bunch of other sharp students that are interested in investing and will likely end up at several different funds. This would be opposed to staying at the same hedge fund and continuing to learn more about how people at one fund think.
(2) Do you know people who worked at smaller hedge funds previously that used the program to get to a larger and, perhaps, better fund?
(3) Do you know what the application process is like for the "Other Application Based Value Investing Courses" (Mental Models, etc.)? http://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/valueinvesting/sites/valueinvesting/files/… (pg. 12)
3 is easy, they use the same application as your VI program application. You just check the box that you are interested in those classes and the professor for each class reviews your VI application independently. The classes tend to be about 50/50 people in the program and people who didn't get in the program. I took one of them but still couldn't tell you how the application was judged.
Your first question is more difficult. I would lean towards no personally. Some people do it but it is rare. I speak very highly of the VI program and the placement statistics are strong each year. However getting a job is still challenging, there are no guarantees and no matter how well the program is regarded real job experience is held in higher regard. If you're a banking analyst and going to a hedge fund you already have a decent network. If you don't like your fund then it will be much easier to use that network and get hired into a new fund while working than from an MBA, even from the Value Investing Program. Most people who leave a HF to go back to school either were at a quant fund and wanted a more fundamental role or felt very pigeonholed in their current position and wanted to expand their potential. From a knowledge standpoint you can certainly learn a lot and you are correct that you would be exposed to a number of successful investors with different approaches. But from a career risk/reward standpoint (not to mention the cost + lost wages) I'm not convinced it makes sense for most people.
In regards, to 1) and 2) there are a few people in the program taking that route. I can think of one person off the top of my head that was already in the industry, did the program and landed at a very smart place.
If you're already at a hedge fund, believe in the strategy, and respect your colleagues, there's probably not a point. But if you are a place you want to move on from, I think the program (and business school) does offer you exposure to prospective employers.
I would try your existing network and look at your current opportunities first. Then poke around on LinkedIn a bit and see where CBS graduates ended up. That might give you a sense of how the two paths would affect career outcomes.
Obviously, it's not just about the career outcome. There's the learning, the fun parts of school, and the financial and opportunity costs. So keep that in mind too. Hope that's somewhat helpful.
Thanks for the responses, bluerlion and MilitarytoFinance.
I'm an analyst at a large long-only manager and want to have a crack at long/short equities. I understand the whole "grass is greener" argument, but how useful/worthwhile would the program be for someone such as myself? The irony is that I'm pretty rational - or would like to think so, at least professionally - so an MBA is not exactly rational when you consider the full opportunity cost.
Would it aid the transition? Probably. But if you can make the transition on your own and the non-career aspects of business school are less a priority, you're right. You're paying a lot of tuition and opportunity cost for something that you might not need.
I had fun at business school, learned a lot, met interesting people and was pleased with my opportunities coming out. But business school doesn't make equal sense for all. I would try to talk with people in a similar situation already at school or that have already transitioned.
Thanks bluerlion/militarytofinance/mbavsmfin for providing these insights. Will CFA level II (in addition to great stock pitch etc..) help with getting into the VI program for someone who does not have a banking/buyside background? I'm trying to use multiple in-school internships and the summer internship and the VI program to set myself up for a post-mba HF role. Wondering whether this is even feasible
Thanks for your response.
The (likely) problem is that I'm not a local so that could be an issue. It's hard to make the transition without the face to face contact. But where I am - Australia - there really isn't a big HF scene, making it difficult to make the transition locally. So that's why I'm considering the MBA as a springboard; I'm already a CFA charterholder.
Again, I really appreciate your feedback - much appreciated.
Thought I'd answer a few of these questions based on what I saw in school a few years back
Those with good PE backgrounds placed at solid hedge funds without working all that hard, whether they did VI program. However, they generally took a few VI classes out of interest even if they weren't in the program.
For those that go into the VI program without a solid HF background, some do a few years in mutual fund/equity research/etc. before moving on.
1- Some people did leave good funds, including tiger cub funds, to do the VI program. Obviously given the opportunity cost it makes the most sense for people who want to build out a skill set or transition in some way.
2-people definitely moved from smaller funds to bigger funds, as well as from PE to bigger funds, but only those with relevant experience. People in the VI program without prior investing/equity research/mutual fund/pe/etc. experience were unlikely to move to a huge, renowned fund.
3- I am pretty sure classes such as Mental Models are only open to VI students. I misunderstood that, ultimately decided not to do the program and was disappointed I couldn't take 4-5 of the best ones. I did take a few VI classes that were phenomenal though, and they were a mix of VI and non-VI students. Just FYI.
There were not that many internationals in the program, but the ones I can think of went to good asset managers and got visas. I don't know of any off the top of my head that got visas at HFs, but I do have foreign friends who were being recruited recently for HFs in NY, and visas were not an issue. It's not going to be easy unless you are very competitive.
Oh and for jterm - this answer is a bit late but for anyone who reads this in the future:
There are many spots (18 i think) in the VI program left open to J-termers and they placed super well my year.
Every single one I can think of went to a medium/solid to large/excellent hedge fund. Most of them had solid experience prior to school, but they each moved up a level, so to speak. Also had several j-term friends who didn't do the program who went from PE to HF, or credit HF to equity HF (hard to do). Most interviewed for a month or two and found something they were happy with.
J-term placement is excellent, so anyone considering applying should not let that factor into the decision. If you do the VI program, you'll be working on pitches and with investors which will prepare you to interview well. If you don't do the VI program, you can intern during the semester at a fund if you feel you need the experience.
Thanks for the feedback on internationals. It sounds as though entry into the VI program is mighty tough if you can't prove your chops.
On pre-MBA work experience and how it is assessed by HFs, is much of a distinction made between, say, those who came from hedge funds and mutual funds? Or is it a case of time on the buy-side is better than none at all.
For entry into the program, demonstrated interest is important, whether you have worked in an investing capacity or gained the foundational knowledge through reading and developing pitches on your own. The program head will give you credit if you show deep interest in value investing and there are people that have gotten in from a military background with no experience. But there are some strong backgrounds in the program, for sure.
As for prior experience, distinctions are made based on the fund's reputation and the person's responsibilities, etc. Some mutual funds are better than certain hedge funds, so it is more nuanced than a black and white mutual fund/ hf distinction. It sounds like your background is pretty solid if your asset manager is well known. I would talk to some graduates. Maybe the VI office would put you in touch with some alumni with a similar background.
Hi everyone, my apologies as I know this thread is slightly dated, but I am starting to narrow down my graduate study options and Columbia is high on my list. I was curious to know, for those that have experience with the Value Investing program, do you know of any JD/MBA candidates (3 year track) that have been admitted to the VI program. I am trying to make the most of my time at Columbia and would love to have the opportunity to participate in both, but would default to just the VI program
Post MBA Goal: land a gig at a long/short, long-only, or merger arbitrage HF
A little background on me: I am currently in Corp Dev (M&A and CVC focused deals) at a publicly traded company. In addition, I have passed both CFA 1&2.
merger arb is totally different different from the other two strategies... even long / short at most HF's at tremendously different in terms of their holding periods / what they're looking for in investments vs. long-only's.
Columbia Value Investing (Originally Posted: 05/06/2011)
Sup fellas, I will be applying to Business School this year and I wanted to get an idea of how the Columbia Value Investing MBA translates into the HF world in NYC. If I pursued my degree there, will I have a high likely-hood of landing a position with a HF in NY, compared to other typical MBA Finance programs?
Curious about this program as well, regarding hiring opportunities and entrance requirements.
VERY tough to get into, and some of the best value investors teach there as adjunct faculty. A lot of the top HF recruit at columbia, such as SAC, Citadel, viking, soros, highbridge, and many more. Finance recruiting at top b-schools has picked up a lot this year and will only get better.
I thought the Value Investing was just one course in the MBA program and not its own program?
Seems redundant if you already work at a HF. Just look up the LinkedIn profiles of the CIMA officers and competition winners to see where the best people in the program are going. Joel Greenblatt said in a GuruFocus interview that you could learn everything in the program from just practicing and reading.
blue ridge recruits from the program pretty extensively and offers internship positions throughout the year.
it's pretty difficult to get into the program, but even if you're not admitted you can take 4 or 5 of the same courses with students who are in the program. There are probably 3 or 4 that you won't be able to take.
Thanks, that's the kind of info I'm interested to hear. I'm not really crazy about doing business school and if I did, I'd want to do something along those lines.
I had no idea this program existed. Columbia just jumped way up on my personal MBA preference list. Is this program really that popular? I would have thought CBS would have more appeal to the banking/PE crowd.
+1
From what I know it's a very rewarding program that gets you in touch with the actual value investor community out there, but that said I've also had people telling me that a lot of investing has to be self-taught, so how much one gets out of it all depends on how much one puts in...
As to recruiting if i'm not mistaken it's far from being a one stop & shop thing....a friend who's graduating this year told me that half of the class have no HF offers yet....all depends on the individual
So half the value investing students have HF offers? That's pretty impressive since HF and IM are VERY tough to get.
Haha, only on WSO would a kid born in 91 advise a 3rd year HF analyst on HF recruiting from b-school.
Back on point, I've always heard the program is hard to get into, but does anybody know what the selection criteria are? Is it previous work experience in investing, or undergrad academics, or CBS GPA, or doing an investment write-up, or just kissing professor's ass?
Not 'advising' but just simply TRYING to bounce back an idea.
I think people apply for the value investing program towards the end of their first year of core business classes. Don't think CBS still uses a grading/ranking system but I'm not sure. As a criterion I'm pretty certain they at least ask what investment classics have you read, Graham, Klarman, Greenwald etc. I've seen an application form online before so there's definitely a way to find out. Can't see why prior investing experience would be required, but certainly that of finance?
This is an application form from a few years ago.
• In applying to Applied Value Investing you can either rank your instructor preference or indicate you are interested in all four sections equally (Mark Cooper, Mike Blitzer, Brian Gaines, or Artie Williams) • By completing this application, you are ALSO applying to Value & Special Situations Investing with Joel Greenblatt, for Fall 2009 (if you do not wish to take this course, please indicate this in the space provided). • You must sign-up for and attend a mandatory interview with the Heilbrunn Center staff before your application can be considered COMPLETE. The interview slots have been scheduled prior to the application due date to better correspond with travel/summer job considerations. There will be interview slots on the following days: April 21st, 22nd, 29th, 30th, and May 5th. Starting on Monday, April 6th you can sign up for an interview slot on the sign-up sheets outside Uris Hall Room 325C. Time slots will be filled on a first come, first served basis. Be sure to sign up by April 13th. • Your full application should consist of the following: 1. Completed interview. 15 minute interviews will be scheduled with Heilbrunn staff. 2. Completed “Applicant Information” form. Including relevant contact information for notification in June (see 2-pages below) 3. Resume. Including your summer position 4. Cover Letter or One-page Essay. Explain why you want to take these classes (including, but not limited to, why you came to Columbia, why you are interested in value investing, what you hope to do once you graduate and, how this class will help you meet those goals) 5. Investment Write-Up. Choose a company that you believe is a compelling short or long investment idea and write a two-page memo analyzing your idea, including: 1. How you found the idea, your search strategy, etc. (this is critical) 2. What value do you assign to the company and why 3. What makes this idea compelling 4. Competitive situation of the company (industry or peers) 5. Please limit the text and financial analysis (charts, tables, etc) to two pages (single-sided) Application Review Process:
• Consideration will be given to interest level, preparation (books read, knowledge of industry, value techniques, etc.), and demonstrated commitment to investing courses. Career switchers who have a strong interest in pursuing investing after graduation are encouraged to apply.
• Each application will be reviewed by all Applied Value Investing professors and at least one member of the Heilbrunn Center staff. • At the professor's discretion, phone interviews may also be scheduled. • The review/selection process is conducted with our best efforts to match instructor/student preferences. • By submitting this application, you agree to the process and will accept the final decisions of the professors reviewing the applications. • By submitting this application, you agree to have 1,000 bid points deducted for Applied Value Investing and Special Situations. For additional classes offered to you in the spring, you will have approximately 2,000 bid points deducted per class that you chose to enroll in. (This number may be adjusted). • The capacity for each Applied Value Investing section is approximately 10 students.
Columbia - Value Investing (Originally Posted: 04/09/2015)
Gents
Have come across older threads - anyone doing the value investing classes right now or has recently done so?
Wonder about translation rate to HFs coming out of the programme, in particular, for foreign students (Visa ...).
Thanks
I haven't personally done it, but I know several who have and moved on to brand name hedge funds - seems to be quite well regarded.
No idea about foreign students/ visas.
Curious if this program allows for a transition to HF without HF experience pre-mba.
Getting a Visa will be very difficult. The unfortunately reality is not a lot of buyside shops sponsor visas for international students to come work after school.
BlueWing, yes you can transition to a HF without prior experience via the program. There are a handful of people in the program each year who don't have prior finance experience.
Thanks for the info. Gives me some hope for in a few years.
Are you able to flesh out the Visa sponsorship? As in, when would/wouldn't buy-side shops sponsor visas?
The feedback I've been receiving on this issue is somewhat mixed, but I'd like to think there's a way of breaking into the US market as an international with a few years as an analyst at a reasonable long-only shop.
Any info I have is hearsay since I don't need a Visa but that I know of Fidelty, T. Rowe and Capital Group have all sponsored people for a Visa. With hedge funds you might be able to get some to do it but with the limited HR function that will probably take some significant negotiating.
Thanks for the feedback - it's much appreciated.
I can imagine the large managers being more open to Visa sponsorship than HFs. I know of someone who went to Kynikos from CBS and probably required a sponsorship so the hurdle's not insurmountable (from the outset).
Thanks again
I've heard that it is still like the MBA program... You still need the relevant pre-mba experience to go to HFs. Basically the kids that have the experience and go to those funds likely could have gone to the same places if they didnt do the value program.
Despite that, if I were to MBA Id still put Columbia on the list and would do the program. Just dont expect it to be the gareway to a HF if you dont have the experience.
This isn't entirely true. Obviously relevant experience is always better than not but it isn't a requirement. People already at L/S equity funds don't need an MBA so they won't be in the program. The only people with previous HF experience that go back to school seem to be either people at quant funds who want to do fundamental work or people at places like Bridgewater where they weren't really analysts despite their job titles. Neither of those are actually relevant experience to a value or special sits or distressed shop. The closest you get are the guys coming from PE wanting to switch to HF.
The rest of the class are people who did banking, equity research or other non-finance jobs who want to switch to investment management. These people still land jobs at good funds that they most likely would not have had access to outside of Columbia and the Value Investing program. I'm not saying it's a golden ticket to an awesome buyside job but I think people on WSO tend to be overly narrow in their view of what is possible.
We have considered hiring an intern who is in this program, but have communicated very clearly there is 0% for a full time offer. Long/short concentrated fund and we still prefer those with prior relevant financial experience (PE or HF).
You can still make it without prior experience, but adding the need for a Visa makes it even harder.
Curious to hear if your fund was looking specifically at students in this program. From what I gathered doing an MBA is not directly helpful for getting into hedge funds. It can be beneficial (indirectly) by giving you more time to find an opportunity (versus recruiting as a banker, for example).
No, we don't look at that program in particular, in fact we (and most long/shorts) do not like MBAs at all and prefer those who are already working.
60% of our interviewees were from other hedge funds and another 20% from PE firms, and the rest from Ibanking/MBAs.
You're correct, if you're already in IBD/PE/HF, there is 0 value add from an MBA. If you're a banker you can simply stay within banking for a 3rd year.
Disagree that there is 0 value add. Maybe a lot of the finance classes will be repetitive, but depending on the school and what you make out of it, tons of my classmates who did traditional IBD/PE/HF got a lot out of school.
Thank you!
VI at CBS accepts 40 out of 120, but don't let the acceptance rate fool you. It's a highly self-selective and motivated pool of applicants. There are multiple interviews, stock pitch, and an application. The classes are an insane amount of work, so don't even think about it unless you're 100% committed to VI and working in that space after school.
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