Full Time Recruiting

I_Am_Alpha's picture
Rank: Chimp | 13

I will be interning at a mega fund's credit arm this summer, and was curious about full time recruiting in case I don't end up working their full time for whatever reason. How difficult will it be securing a full time position at a BB compared to converting a full time through an internship? I plan on beginning my networking efforts soon, and will benefit from being in NYC this summer. Any insights on FT recruiting in general would be appreciated.

Comments (346)

May 9, 2016

BB FT will be very difficult this year as the economy is slowing down and recession is on the horizon. The difficult part is to get you into an interview. So network intensively now and make effort to establish genuine relationship. Keep in mind that FT BB is difficult, but not impossible. My friends went from BO to FO at many BBs

    • 1
May 9, 2016

This is stupid. If he/she interns at a mega fund then he/she probably has a solid or top tier profile. The MF internship with a return offer and some solid networking should yield interviews at any IB.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

How would you go about networking with the people on the sellside, if you're going to do a buyside internship. I always thought it was weird to be asking about information for a role that is, for lack of a better word, desirable.

Array

May 9, 2016

bump, interested as well. I was given the advice to network with BB/EB's during the weeks of my summer internship so that they would have me in my mind when they give return offers to their SA class. Networking before I've completed my SA seems premature as if it would send a bad message that I don't like what i'm doing before I've even tried it. Would like some insight.

May 9, 2016

The most important thing to focus on is getting the return offer. That way, the worse case scenario that can happen to you is that you have a job in IB post-graduation. Also, if you don't end up getting the return offer, then it will be much more difficult to get an offer from another bank especially ones that are "better" than the one you are working at. From those banks' perspective: Why would they want to hire someone who couldn't even cut it at a "worse" bank?

As a side note to getting the return offer, don't tell ANYONE at your bank, even your fellow interns, that you want to lateral to another bank. Even if you tell one person, word will spread quickly that you aren't interested in the bank and there is a big chance that the people making your return offer decision will come to know and even though you might be the top performing analyst, they might not give you an offer because they know you'll just jump ship given the opportunity.

Even though the summer analyst recruiting keeps moving up earlier, I think the FT analyst recruiting will stay about the same in that a few banks (especially the EBs) will do FT accelerated recruiting in late July/August for the few spots that may need to be filled. BBs and other banks will do FT recruiting in August/September and spots may open up in late September and October or even after that based on when the return offer deadline for SAs is.

I believe there are also some opportunities available in the first half of the year (January-April) depending on the bank. For example, if a bank anticipates more deal flow or an analyst is leaving the bank all of a sudden, then the bank will do limited recruiting for one to two spots.

The majority of banks will have filled their analyst class up with SAs, but you have to be networking and in the loop with most banks because when a spot does open up, the bank will have an extremely accelerated recruiting timeline with the entire interview process lasting about a week (first round on a Monday or Tuesday, superday on a Friday, and then offer given out on Friday or the following Monday). However, there are a lot of banks that will just post an FT analyst position on their careers website and have a longer recruiting timeline (about a month or so).

In the end though, take time to be grateful for what you accomplished. I know a ton of people who would love to be an IB SA like you.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

So some advice anecdotally, I lateralled from a turnaround/restructuring consultancy role into a Rx role at an EB. I echo a lot of the advice above. I think my process was:

  • May: Reach our to people you connected with over the summer recruiting process and let me know where you're heading. Don't mention recruiting. Start prepping technicals. Also while you're starting your job keep a notebook of all your responsibilities in as much detail as possible.

-June: start having informal coffee/phone chats with FT analysts. If you have any friends at a firm you're targeting, ask them who to reach out to. At the end of the call mention that you're interested in any possible FTR processes. Update your resume/story and if you have any deal experience on your resume, start memorizing every detail.

  • July: Early July was filled with phone screens and then first rounds towards the end of the month. Things moved fast. For example, I had a first round phone interview on a Friday and my super was the following Monday.

-August: Superdays in the first two weeks, decisions anywhere from 6-48 hours afterwards.

Feel free to PM. Also really don't tell anybody you're recruiting.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

Was your interview from on-campus recruiting?

May 9, 2016

no, just cold-networking

May 9, 2016

it really depends. i'd follow up since it's been a full week.

May 9, 2016

anyone also just get an email that Barclays completed its full time recruiting?

May 9, 2016

That's weird. I did not.

May 9, 2016

Yes, also received the email

May 9, 2016

I believe that CS also completed their full-time recruiting as well

May 9, 2016

Sorry but honestly you're fucked. Everyone is either done (by early September) or never did interviews because they over-hired this year. Try to get boutiques right now before they close up too. I mean the bulges have already started interviewing for SAs.

May 9, 2016

There is a hiring this freeze this year. You are probably SOL at BB's

I don't care who your dad is

May 9, 2016

BBs have already started, and even in some cases finished, SA recruiting so that should answer your question regarding FT

May 9, 2016

5th year seems like a poor decision - usually a 5th year only makes sense in a worst case scenario where someone is unable to land IB SA Junior year for reasons that could easily be fixed if they recruited the following year (got interested too late, poor interviewing skills). In your case, I think the marginal benefit of a 5th year would be minimal and you would have a hard time selling your "story" to NY banks.

A better option in my opinion would be to focus on killing your IB internship this summer and then seeing after a yearish on the job if you could transfer to the NY office ... YMMV depending on the shop, but should be doable especially considering for most canadian banks their US department is less prestigious so if you're doing well they shouldn't be hesitant to transfer you. Could be 100% wrong about this but my gut instinct.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

Which EBs are hiring? Can you provide some names? (did not get an IB internship this summer).

May 9, 2016

Know Greenhill just hired somebody for FT that interned at another bank. Doubt they'd look at somebody w/ no banking exp before though.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

??C'mon, I know some of you people have info

May 9, 2016

Can confirm 100% JPM in NY hired back their SA's. My cousin is a managing director there.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

Thanks for the info, so you mean that they ONLY hired back SAs for their FT?

May 9, 2016

Most of the BBs are only considering BB/EB summers with return offers for full time slots, from what I understand

May 9, 2016

Grad level:

BAML: Hiring, sounds like only one or two MBA slots.

Wells Fargo: No Full Time Associate Hiring.

Credit Suisse: No Full Time Associate Hiring.

Houlihan Lokey: No Full Time Associate Hiring (impending layoffs for juniors).

Miller Buckfire: Yes, currrently doing accelerated ANL/ASS hiring (deadline just passed), will do regular schedule hiring in the fall.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

This is my understanding for undergrad. Pretty much all the BBs will have spots in most groups available, assuming they did not give out 100% return offers and they have sub-100% yield. Certain groups have extremely high yield and there will likely not be spots for these select few. That being said, most groups will have small amounts of availability - like 5 or 6 spots in an analyst class of 90.

The problem with this for people not already at a bank is that internal candidates are given right of way in these very small number of spots. Typically there's enough hiring so that 1 or 2 internal and maybe 1 or 2 external scrape their way into larger groups, but I think this year it will pretty much be just internal for most, since usually there's a lot of people invested in getting into IB internally from capital markets or other similar roles. Basically this means looking internally makes a lot more sense than externally this year.

May 9, 2016

I have a couple of friends in BBs and spoke with a few of them recently. They filled all their spots with summer analysts. Doubt there will be much FT recruiting for BBs this year except for a few open spots which will be filled by candidates that did their SA at another BB. However, nothing is impossible. Best of luck.

May 9, 2016

Stifel just had their accelerated superday today...

It ain't what you know, it's who you know

May 9, 2016

Do you know when you'll hear back or if they'll do another?

Array

May 9, 2016

did you hear back yet?

May 9, 2016

Well first, where are you going to be interning this summer? Most FT laterals did IB, and so a typical switch could be MM -> BB or BB -> EB or BB -> BB, etc. In general, FT recruiting is much tougher than SA recruiting due to the limited amount of spots and tougher interviews. I would say the timetable is generally late July - late August. I would also think you have a better shot at BBs, as most do some form of FT recruiting, whereas some EBs don't even participate if their return rates are high enough.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

EBs have extremely small analyst sizes and they typically have higher return rate than BBs. As above post mentions, people lateral FT to a better bank (MM -> BB or BB -> EB), but that's not to say you cannot go from MM -> EB. You need to build a strong network within these firms and be on their radar for accelerated FT recruiting process that happens July/August during summer.

May 9, 2016
May 9, 2016

I wouldn't view SA recruiting and FT recruiting as two separate entities. What I mean by that is, personally, the connections I have made during SA recruiting have helped me tremendously for FT positions when the time came. I believe it's all about building and maintaining relationships with those you have the opportunity to interact with. So even when you have your SA gig locked up (and congrats if you do), don't put the brakes on networking. Keep cold emailing and speak with those who are willing. There is always something that can be learned from every phone call and there is truly no cons to continuously growing your network. Hope that helps.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

In the past few weeks, there have been many threads about this exact topic. They all have really really good information and I think that once you have read them all, all of your questions would be answered.

May 9, 2016
  1. June but you really should never stop networking
  2. No. Comes off like an asshole who thinks he's too good for the job in front of him.
May 9, 2016

It's too early to tell whether or not we'll be doing FT recruiting outside of SA. If things continue to pick up, there's a chance we'll hire a few... but your odds are slim-to-none, and you can pretty much guarantee that you'll need an MD to pass on your resume in order to even be considered.

Don't get your hopes up.. pursue other careers (I'd still apply for FT, but don't put all your eggs in one basket)

May 9, 2016

Unless the financial industry starts a sustained improvement don't count on much FT recruiting. Just like this past Fall, many companies will fill out their FT class with SAs and call it a day. Even if some banks do recruit, you will be competing against SAs that did not receive offers.

I wouldn't give up but you need to be realistic and have a backup plan. IB isn't as great as it used to be.

May 9, 2016

In good times are FT positions easier to land than SA

May 9, 2016

I heard BBs are focusing most of its analyst class on SAs,too. Under this environment, I doubt that people who get offers from SA will actually decline.

However, how about the MM shops or boutiques?

May 9, 2016

not good to hear :/
are there any other opinions out there, or is it the consensus that FT chances with BB's are slim-to-none if I do not have IB SA?

May 9, 2016

come on with copper and oil rising and the dow on the way back up you should be good.

honestly if the market comes back you'll have a chance otherwise even those with sas are screwed

May 9, 2016

Why is everyone considering working for BB/elite boutiques only? Stop being so spoiled and start considering MM/regional boutiques.

May 9, 2016

Honestly, one of the reasons that I really wanted to do IB was for its exit opps and its networking opportunities. They are just not the same at a non-brand-name shop.

I will of course seriously consider lowering my aims, though, given that my chances with BB/elite boutiques are diminishing.

Correct me if I am wrong of course. I have not worked as an investment banker for one day in my life, so I accept any corrections to my views.

May 9, 2016

exit opps are one the most important things when looking for places to work. but honestly, some of these "brand names" dont do anything for their departing analysts.

i know plenty of analysts from bb's (not gs and ms) that couldnt get pe positions, and instead went to industry. on the other hand, i know plenty of analysts from mm banks (blair, jefferies, hw, hlhz) that got nothing but PE offers. it's all about your experience and honestly working for the above mentioned firms gets you the right experience that pe shops are looking for.

May 9, 2016

If you really want exit ops, Analyst at MM/regional for 2 years, then Analyst at BB/elite for 2 years. But then again, it's easy for me to say it because I am very interested in ibanking (and consider exit ops as perks, I'd like to work up to associates level)

May 9, 2016

thanks for the feedback. i will definitely give the issue some thought.

May 9, 2016

Wall Street isn't that big. If you're a MS Tech SA and reach out to someone in GS TMT, there's a decent enough chance that news will get back to MS and you'll jeopardize getting an offer at either. Wait until your internship is over before you reach out, or reach out before the internship begins (if you've spoken with these people before) just to keep in contact.

May 9, 2016

You can reach out, just as long as you are discrete about it before the internship, and ask general questions; nothing serious, simply establish rapport. Tell them where you will be for the summer. Then once you get the offer, and only then, do you probe for "accelerated interviews" and if they have them. Then you will get a call or email for an interview rather quickly so just be ready. Good luck.

May 9, 2016

It's a small world.

@GS: If you ever leave GS IBD, you will never be hired again unless you making it fucking rain.

May 9, 2016

I'm almost in the same situation as you. My advice is to start reaching out to your target firms and know which ones you will apply to, so that by the time the Fall gets here (September) you have a head start by already identifying where you'd like to work and probably even applied online (or whatever means). If the place you are currently interning at offers you a full time offer, you don't have too much time to start looking elsewhere so avoid declining one job in the hopes to find a 'better'.
to cut a long story short, start searching now and by September you're going ham on those interviews!
Recruiting begins as early as Sept. and I know a couple of friends who secured full time jobs by early October

    • 1
May 9, 2016
miss254:

Recruiting begins as early as Sept. and I know a couple of friends who secured full time jobs by early October

If you operate on this timeline, you'll sadly realize that nearly every position has been filled by that point.

It's a simple process. In August, they extend offers to as many qualified interns as possible. Then they juxtapose the number of extended offers with the number of full-time positions they want to fill. If there is a gap, they go out and hire to fill that gap. That hiring process includes kids who interviewed at that bank but were waitlisted and ended up never receiving an offer, kids who received an offer there but chose to go somewhere else yet remained in touch, kids who have relatives/friends/connections who can get them the interview, and kids who networked aggressively over the summer with that firm.

It's called the 'accelerated process' for a reason; it happens quickly. Nearly every offer is made before September; they don't want to go back to campus, they try to catch kids before they leave the city after their internship. All the stories you hear about someone getting a full-time position in October, December, March, or even May are simply instances where a summer analyst who received a return offer strung the bank along without accepting or declining the offer (probably because they themselves were interviewing everywhere) and finally said 'no,' forcing the bank to make an external hire to fill that slot (or where someone accepted the offer and then eventually reneged; this is how people get hired in May for a July start).

    • 1
May 9, 2016

Best advice is and always will be to network

May 9, 2016

I know plenty of people from Stern. If you network correctly, anything can happen. I actually mean it.

Sit down this summer and make a list of places you are interested in, and track down people at these firms. Find them on LinkedIn (especially those that went to your school), send them cold e-mails, meet people for coffee, ask good questions, and show them your interest. You are lucky to be in NYC and that you can actually meet these people in person - make the most of it!

The industry is a tough place, but you can definitely set yourself apart with an aggressive networking strategy. Start now.

May 9, 2016

thanks for the comments I'm definitely doing the Linkedin cold-calling and I've had some success so I'll keep going.

Any advice on the whole major issue? Would it hurt me if I wanted to go into financial services but had a different area of business as a concentration (i.e. information systems, stats, accounting, etc)

May 9, 2016

Out of curiosity, how were you able to get those internships with that GPA?

My posts will be fraught with grammatical errors since I post from my phone. I will try my best not to post an incoherent babble.

May 9, 2016

Not sure about full time recruiting, but schools won't care about your econ vs. engineering grade breakdown. Your overall GPA will be the only thing that matters, and that takes a backseat to your work experience. Also, the GMAT is the third big component.

May 9, 2016

Warren Buffett has a BA from the University of Nebraska.

If you can get in the door, it is all up to you.

May 9, 2016

He also went to Wharton for three years before transferring.

May 9, 2016

thanks for the responses, but maybe more directly to my question pls?

May 9, 2016

If I were you, I'd take the offer from the BB if you receive it. Having just gone through FT recruiting last fall, I can you it is tough as nails. I don't think the benefit of working for a major U.S. bank in the U.S. outweigh the benefit of working for a major U.S. bank in Hong Kong enough to risk coming out with nothing. After two years of banking experience, someone will take you.

May 9, 2016

as a FT at a BB in HK, (damn that sentence doesn't sound like english...) you will get a ~30k housing allowance in addition to your base salary, so even as a first year you will be clocking a much bigger bank account than your NY buddies....

May 9, 2016

but its going to be rougher than sex with the Thing.

The world has changed. And we must change with it.

I'm making it up as I go along.

May 9, 2016

yeah, it will be tough however not impossible to get a FT IBD position without a brand name SA position. Most firms will probably hire a good amount from their SA class for full-time and have a few positions open to fill. Non-IBD related FT will also be difficult to get in but still very possible, it's too early to tell exactly what it will be like.

I would try and branch out to other industries like accounting or consulting at this point for an internship as the job market for IB is incredibly tight. Anything to make yourself continually competitive will definitely help out during the FT recruiting cycle. As long as your other stats are pretty solid, you won't be completely screwed. I know people without brand name experiences in 08 getting FT interviews.

Personally, I've stepped out of the banking and finance game even though I have a solid finance and accounting background, and moved to consulting. I don't even know if I want to go through the pain of FT recruiting again, even though IB was my dream among dreams.

May 9, 2016

i bet that firms won't be hiring much out of their SA pools. why should they given the market? lots of not-so qualified graduates had been hired in the past...they are all gone the banks won't be hiring those who didn't get a brand-name legitimate summer job.

Best,
SoulSearching

Best,
SoulSearching

May 9, 2016
soulsearching:

lots of not-so qualified graduates had been hired in the past...they are all gone the banks won't be hiring those who didn't get a brand-name legitimate summer job.

I bet you secured yourself SA position and now try to make yourself feel better while shitting on everyone else.

I think non-targets hiring rate didn't go bananas during 2004 - 2007 boom at elite level. BB & Elite Boutiques were just hiring much more students from Ivy Leagues who had brand names all over their resumes.

Remember, not-so qualified graduates != non-targets or no brand-names.

May 9, 2016

I think we'll see one of three things:

  1. The market stays shitty but doesn't get worse. In this case it'll be hard to get in, but not impossible.
  2. The market goes toward the abyss and we are all screwed.
  3. The market gets better and firms will have vastly under-hired for SAs and you'll be just fine.
May 9, 2016

I like how you use the !=...LOL

May 9, 2016

for what it's worth, there is life outside banking... read the dealbreaker comments section to see what working in finance a few years does to you.

May 9, 2016

hmm..i am seriously considering somewhere outside banking. However, do you guys know any position that are semi-quant? I am not one of those hardcore quant but I would also use my quantitative ability from my major.

May 9, 2016

I know a kid who chose not to do his junior year SA. i think he went on to do some volunteering work. Still got hired as a FT at a reputable boutique. he's from a target business school though.

just do something that's meaningful...it doesn't always have to be in finance or consulting or whatever or even volunteer abroad.

i am sure you will get something. i suggest you keep looking.

May 9, 2016

Think tanks are a good way to go. You'll find plenty of them everywhere and they would most certainly utilize some quant skills. The pay is not great though.

May 9, 2016

Cold call, network, consider MM and boutique. Attend on campus recruiting events. Your case isn't particularly unusual. Your GPA is not ridiculously low especially when you consider the major. Are you a US citizen though?

May 9, 2016
futurectdoc:

Cold call, network, consider MM and boutique. Attend on campus recruiting events. Your case isn't particularly unusual. Your GPA is not ridiculously low especially when you consider the major. Are you a US citizen though?

Naah i'm not a US citizen so it kinda limits me to companies that offer H1B.

May 9, 2016

I think you're better off becoming a professional referee as FIFA needs that rather desperately if events in SA are anything to go by (Howard Webb was atrocious in the final). More importantly, you're better paid on a per hour basis... ;)

On a more serious note, I think your background sets you up for S&T roles nicely (assuming you go to a decent college) given your rather technical background. As advised by someone above, networking may be your best bet.

However, if things don't work out for you fresh out of undergrad, there's always the option of b-school if you're hell bent on IB (this may actually be more beneficial if you haven't got much exposure to finance; or rather more specifically, the concepts relevant to IB's)...

May 9, 2016

Someone please ban this idiot.

May 9, 2016

Block out more stuff bro

May 9, 2016

You look good; you'll have ib experience. Hopefully you will actually get some deal experience to talk about this summer.

Provided the school you go to has some decent OCR, you should get plenty of interviews. Of course, the usual advice about networking holds.

May 9, 2016

Only advice I would have would be to blot out more information, it would be very easy to piece together who you are given how much you've left visible.

May 9, 2016

Blacked out some more information, thanks for the advice.

I go to a non-target state school so I don't have any OCR unfortunately, my internships have all been through networking. Would the online resume drops for BBs get me any feedback whatsoever?

May 9, 2016

If you network beforehand, and have a connection push your resume, you'd definitely have a good shot at a BB. Just dropping resumes online is hit and miss; you'll have a good background, but so will a lot of candidates.

May 9, 2016

Why'd you black out Wedbush? Tons of people already saw your previous two threads. That said, with PWM and IBD internships and a decent GPA you should be a solid candidate. Given you didn't have OCR I'm assuming you know a little about networking, so just push the borders of said network and get some informationals/contacts at the BBs you choose to target.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to become the means by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of other men. Blood, whips and guns or dollars."

May 9, 2016
Independent Gestion:

Why'd you black out Wedbush? Tons of people already saw your previous two threads.

I wanted to make it more difficult for those identity thiefs/potential online stalkers too lazy to use a search function.

Also, thanks for the positive feedback - I know someone at Merrill willing to push my resume and someone at JP Morgan that rejected me for summer recruitment, so hopefully that works out well.

I will be posting my resume again late July for a more thorough critique, just thought I would get some advice and guidance beforehand.

May 9, 2016

double post

May 9, 2016
Raptor.45:

I'm sure I'm not the only person on this site who's not currently a SA and is going after FT recruiting (rising senior at a target originally didn't want to do banking interning at a great buy side firm but reconsidering my career trajectory here). We all know last year banks barely hired anyone outside of their SA classes because of the dismal economic outlook coming out of summer '11. Things aren't as bad now as they were then as shown by equity markets trading only ~5% off cyclical highs. Can anyone in the industry shed some light on this question?

What's the hiring scene most likely going to look like for FT analysts this fall? I heard the current SA class is pretty small ->is it possible the banks have under-hired SAs and may need to fill a gap with FT recruiting or is it going to be as bad as last year? How is M&A/other deal flow currently and any optimism for a near term pickup?

Any advice on the process?

Advice? Network and be able to crush interviews. It's a difficult environment out there - I haven't heard that they underhired... economic outlook in Jan/Feb was much better than it is now. Granted that things remain this gloomy, I wouldn't expect a particularly robust fall hiring season.

May 9, 2016

I think you're going to have to wait on the election. Whoever wins, it will at least map out the playing field for the next four years (and probably well beyond that as Obama will get at least one more Supreme Court nomination). Once companies have a better idea of the business and regulatory landscape, things should pick up.

How much they pick up is probably dependent on who wins, but that's a whole other discussion.....

May 9, 2016
FormerHornetDriver:

I think you're going to have to wait on the election. Whoever wins, it will at least map out the playing field for the next four years (and probably well beyond that as Obama will get at least one more Supreme Court nomination). Once companies have a better idea of the business and regulatory landscape, things should pick up.

How much they pick up is probably dependent on who wins, but that's a whole other discussion.....

Too bad full-time recruiting is largely done in September and October...

May 9, 2016

I'm also very interested.

May 9, 2016

Can you elaborate on your background? What's making you reconsider?

May 9, 2016
Raptor.45:

I'm sure I'm not the only person on this site who's not currently a SA and is going after FT recruiting (rising senior at a target originally didn't want to do banking interning at a great buy side firm but reconsidering my career trajectory here). We all know last year banks barely hired anyone outside of their SA classes because of the dismal economic outlook coming out of summer '11. Things aren't as bad now as they were then as shown by equity markets trading only ~5% off cyclical highs. Can anyone in the industry shed some light on this question?

What's the hiring scene most likely going to look like for FT analysts this fall? I heard the current SA class is pretty small ->is it possible the banks have under-hired SAs and may need to fill a gap with FT recruiting or is it going to be as bad as last year? How is M&A/other deal flow currently and any optimism for a near term pickup?

Any advice on the process?

Stock market performance generally isn't a solid indicator of the economic hiring scene, especially when it is driven by central bank quantitative easing and the real-adjusted returns for the past few years are negative.

As somebody who will be participating in FT recruiting, I am actually pretty pessimistic about the hiring scene as I think we are going to enter another recession or come awfully close to it (negative GDP growth for 2 consecutive quarters).

I'm a pretty cynical person but shit looks bleak right now.

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.

May 9, 2016

May I ask what you are doing this summer?

May 9, 2016

As a smart man once said: hope for the best, and expect the worst.

Expect they are going to hire 1 FT analyst out of 5,000 applications
Hope that the banks are forecasting that by July 2013 business will pick up and will hire 2 FT analysts ;)

Prepare for a fight

May 9, 2016

For what it's worth, while there are indeed fewer fulltime slots, there's a good deal of shuffling around as kids juggle offers and move between banks or industries. It's certainly difficult to get an offer, but it's not like it wasn't just as difficult to get an SA offer either, so just make sure to do your best to network and get into as many recruiting pipelines as you can.

Just a single data point, but out of the analysts in my office, maybe 60-70% were returning SA's, and then the rest were split between those who had done banking the past summer and those who had done something else that was still business-related (like TAS or consulting.)

May 9, 2016

also interested--will there even be any time to network once the internship starts? I imagine it would be very hard to sneak out of the office at 2-3 pm to go off towards another bank for coffee?

May 9, 2016
asianbro:

also interested--will there even be any time to network once the internship starts? I imagine it would be very hard to sneak out of the office at 2-3 pm to go off towards another bank for coffee?

You would imagine wrong. You're an intern, not a fully-functioning analyst. It is very easy to slip out for an hour or so during the day (even for FT analysts) to network with other firms. Just do it around lunch time and people will assume you just walked out to grab some food.

As far as etiquette, there really isn't any. No one in this industry expects you to be stalwartly loyal to your firm during your first few years. To the contrary, everyone expects you to be leaving within 2 years. Don't walk around shouting, "Hey guysssssssss... guess who I'm interviewing with??!?? NOT YOUUUUU!!" and you'll be fine.

Offer deadlines vary based on your school's rules. Some of the schools with more "bargaining power" like HYPWS force banks to give interns until December. For other schools, you'll have about 3-4 weeks. Never heard of anyone having any shorter than 3 weeks, so you have plenty of time to participate in expedited interview processes.

May 9, 2016

You can network during lunch breaks!

May 9, 2016

1. Your top priority should be getting an offer from the firm you intern at.
2. It's possible to network, but do keep it on the down low.
3. Why can't you start networking right now? You can frame it as, "I just want to get a better feel for the job before I get started"

May 9, 2016

Also interested.

May 9, 2016

Also interested. I heard that you should keep it on the DL as it may jeopardize the offer?

May 9, 2016
MinneBanker:

Also interested. I heard that you should keep it on the DL as it may jeopardize the offer?

Don't walk around shouting, "Hey guysssssssss... guess who I'm interviewing with??!?? NOT YOUUUUU!!" and you'll be fine.

May 9, 2016

Probably on your knees right in front of the recruiters/MDs.

"The way to make money is to buy when blood is running in the streets."

-John D. Rockefeller

    • 3
May 9, 2016
carlfox:

Probably on your knees right in front of the recruiters/MDs.

This was not funny

OP, I don't think you need to do much more than what you stated. Learn as much as possible from your internship (try and get 'hands on experience'), network, and present yourself as best as possible. Make sure you aggressively network early and often even if you don't think someone 'can get you something', it's always good to make a relationship and hear someone's story or advice. Be prepared for the mental battle of being shot down, ignored, etc. during the networking process, but don't get gun shy. Just execute your plan.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

    • 1
May 9, 2016
carlfox:

Probably on your knees right in front of the recruiters/MDs.

Don't listen to the fun sponges above, I laughed and I've been told I have an excellent sense of humour, so there we go.

"#1: I want a Times New Roman in the streets but a Wingdings in the sheets."

May 9, 2016

.

May 9, 2016

This is a great post. It begins and ends with attitude and mind set. If you're coming in with a positive attitude and are aiming to work hard and do everything given to you, however small, extremely well you can go far. I witnessed this kind of thing before and it's usually those that smile, work hard, never complain and realize the importance of every task, however menial, that ultimately succeed in proving them selves and build reputations that provide solid platforms from which they establish their careers.

    • 1
    • 1
May 9, 2016
CNB90:

This is a great post. It begins and ends with attitude and mind set. If you're coming in with a positive attitude and are aiming to work hard and do everything given to you, however small, extremely well you can go far. I witnessed this kind of thing before and it's usually those that smile, work hard, never complain and realize the importance of every task, however menial, that ultimately succeed in proving them selves and build reputations that provide solid platforms from which they establish their careers.

This is very true but you(I) have to like what you(I) do or else I am the slacker.

interest = aptitude

May 9, 2016

Great story, but I feel like all of them have decent exits - the girls will have awesome refs, while the guy will have a better understanding of the process and where he wants to be in a few years. All relative.

But yes, I would say that you should definitely give it your all in your current job.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

I'd throw you an SB if I had one.

''You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you need to concentrate on.'' -- President George W. Bush
0.5 bb

    • 1
    • 1
May 9, 2016

good advice, sb'd + homepage at 1pm

WSO's COO (Chief Operating Orangutan) | My Linkedin

May 9, 2016

Excellent advice Ovey. I had to learn what you're advising about the hard way.

Do what's in front of / the simple things first and foremost and the exit options will come to you.

    • 1
May 9, 2016

This is great advice for people starting in BO/MO with ambitions to move to FO as well. Focus on the job at hand, master that job first before looking to move on/

May 9, 2016

In the slacker's case, what is he gonna put on his CV or tell about his IB experience if no one is delegating him tasks? He'll get caught up soon enough that he didn't achieve jackshit during his time there, no?

May 9, 2016

As with anything, I think there is an appropriate balance. Though this post is a much-needed sanity check for many IB analysts that are just waiting to head out the door, the truth is that people who have tunnel vision on their current job are doing themselves just as much harm. I know people that I work with who were so focused on high performance as an analyst that they didn't prepare for the recruiting process and missed out on buyside opportunities. Don't shirk your responsibilities, but don't lose sight of your own career objectives.

May 9, 2016
NorthSider:

As with anything, I think there is an appropriate balance. Though this post is a much-needed sanity check for many IB analysts that are just waiting to head out the door, the truth is that people who have tunnel vision on their current job are doing themselves just as much harm. I know people that I work with who were so focused on high performance as an analyst that they didn't prepare for the recruiting process and missed out on buyside opportunities. Don't shirk your responsibilities, but don't lose sight of your own career objectives.

Good advice

May 9, 2016
NorthSider:

As with anything, I think there is an appropriate balance. Though this post is a much-needed sanity check for many IB analysts that are just waiting to head out the door, the truth is that people who have tunnel vision on their current job are doing themselves just as much harm. I know people that I work with who were so focused on high performance as an analyst that they didn't prepare for the recruiting process and missed out on buyside opportunities. Don't shirk your responsibilities, but don't lose sight of your own career objectives.

This is the key ... just like when you are student and balancing classes/getting good grades with clubs, organizations, networking, OCR, interview prep, etc.

May 9, 2016

good advice. I think the problem is this new guy hasn't set proper goals. Your primary goal at a new job should be to impress your colleagues with your work. Looking too far beyond is a mistake (at least at first).

It's also highly likely, his chosen career path is just not for him.

making a one eight zero.

May 9, 2016

One was enough...

May 9, 2016

Awesome post. I think the other point here is how prepared you will be for HF / PE. Sure a lot of the stuff is only tangentially related, but if you don't focus and apply yourself in IB you will be behind in the learning curve. Even if you manage to land an "exit opp", you will be less prepared to ramp up and likely less successful in your next job.

Basically, I've seen crappy analysts get good jobs after IB, but they are quickly exposed at their next firm.

May 9, 2016

Id add a bit of disclaimer to OP's post.

Always focus on the end-goal, getting stuck in the nitty gritty of things and losing sight of what you actually want to do / where you want to go is very very bad.

Whilst in banking just do things to the standard that are needed, but create as much freetime as possible to practice modelling/work on your investments etc... Going the extra mile in banking is a complete waste of time (except as so far to ensure you get decent deal exposure initially). Being prepared for buyside recruiting is a million times more important than aligning the slide marginally better. Speaking from a hf hiring perspective I rather wouldn't hire the guy that went the extra mile in banking because it shows he likes banking and I don't need people that like banking (i.e. are very good at sucking dick, and can just work hard and follow orders but have no independent thought).

It's like university all over, you have the guys nerding it up in the library that get a marginally better grade and then graduate jobless.

    • 2
May 9, 2016
leveredarb:

Id add a bit of disclaimer to OP's post.

Always focus on the end-goal, getting stuck in the nitty gritty of things and losing sight of what you actually want to do / where you want to go is very very bad.

Whilst in banking just do things to the standard that are needed, but create as much freetime as possible to practice modelling/work on your investments etc... Going the extra mile in banking is a complete waste of time (except as so far to ensure you get decent deal exposure initially). Being prepared for buyside recruiting is a million times more important than aligning the slide marginally better. Speaking from a hf hiring perspective I rather wouldn't hire the guy that went the extra mile in banking because it shows he likes banking and I don't need people that like banking (i.e. are very good at sucking dick, and can just work hard and follow orders but have no independent thought).

It's like university all over, you have the guys nerding it up in the library that get a marginally better grade and then graduate jobless.

Reminds me of the following from LSO:

Study shows upwards of 80% of hedge fund employees never actually knew what the word "hedge" meant
Chicago, IL

--A recent study conducted by the Gallop Group showed that of 5,000 hedge fund employees surveyed during 2006-2007, 83% of respondents were unable to correctly define the word "hedge."

"It's just like, you know, part of the title" said one trader confidently. "Another way of saying 'badass' fund or 'rockstar' fund." "My Range Rover is hedge," he insisted, as if to corroborate. Other responses were equally absurd, ranging from "a Greek word" to "some Jewish dude's last name."

When told that hedging involved systematically eliminating risk, most subjects just stared ahead blankly. Others checked the time. Several respondents were able to eventually grasp the concept, but they found it quite novel. "Ohhh...you mean that..." said the portfolio manager of a $500M fund, as if a light bulb had gone off inside his head. He then added: "Yeah, we didn't do that shit at all."

    • 2
May 9, 2016
leveredarb:

Id add a bit of disclaimer to OP's post.

Always focus on the end-goal, getting stuck in the nitty gritty of things and losing sight of what you actually want to do / where you want to go is very very bad.

Whilst in banking just do things to the standard that are needed, but create as much freetime as possible to practice modelling/work on your investments etc... Going the extra mile in banking is a complete waste of time (except as so far to ensure you get decent deal exposure initially). Being prepared for buyside recruiting is a million times more important than aligning the slide marginally better. Speaking from a hf hiring perspective I rather wouldn't hire the guy that went the extra mile in banking because it shows he likes banking and I don't need people that like banking (i.e. are very good at sucking dick, and can just work hard and follow orders but have no independent thought).

It's like university all over, you have the guys nerding it up in the library that get a marginally better grade and then graduate jobless.

Very insightful!

I would give all my Silver Bananas to you!

"I do not think that there is any other quality so essential to success of any kind as the quality of perseverance. It overcomes almost everything, even nature."

May 9, 2016

You just got Trolled its lso...

May 9, 2016
leveredarb:

You just got Trolled its lso...

That's what I get for not reading...

May 9, 2016

Lol. This thread is now hedge

May 9, 2016

One of my favorite posts from LSO... "yeah, we didn't do that shit at all".. haha

May 9, 2016

like everything in like, balance is key. dont be too ahead of yourself and look at buyside if its hurting your performance substantially or work ethic but dnt be a drone either that just looks at his/her work and has no clue to where they want to be 6 mnths, 1 year, 2 years and 5 years from now...

May 9, 2016

Thanks for the post.
More importantly, I think this post really highlights that living in the moment and not getting ahead of yourself is key to success.
Speaking of which, I have somewhere to be...

I'm not concerned with the very poor
-Mitt Romney

May 9, 2016

Great post, I will follow the advice you give when I graduate grad school :).

My finance blog: AdviceAboutFinance.com

Twitter @samleefinance

May 9, 2016

Great post! Thanks for sharing man.

May 9, 2016

great post and story! it seems obvious but i think many people forget to use common sense.

"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks."
--Benjamin Graham

B.K.

May 9, 2016

feeling inspired..:)

May 9, 2016

I just quit my 6 month ER job to accept a PE job. The ER job is in a very small company though, Im divided on both fundamentals and technicals, in which I wan to focus in fundamentals only.

But reading this post, I feel scared.

May 9, 2016

I think that's why it is absolutely critical to land in a sector/industry where you will be willing to do the 'grunt' work.

I wonder if the guy just is not into banking/finance. Or he's a "markets" guy that's on a "deals" team. I.E. if he'd excel and do the 'small stuff' on a econ-research/macro-research position, FICC, etc.

May 9, 2016

FIRST THINGS FIRST

May 9, 2016

...unable to correctly define the word "hedge."

"It's just like, you know, part of the title" said one trader confidently. "Another way of saying 'badass' fund or 'rockstar' fund." "My Range Rover is hedge," he insisted, as if to corroborate. Other responses were equally absurd, ranging from "a Greek word" to "some Jewish dude's last name."

This story may be a joke, but the "Greek word" response isn't too far off. "Hedge" is the first syllable in the Greek-derived word "hegemon", which is pretty close to being the "Master of the Universe" that we all aspire to be.

Absurd? Nah; guy just knows his etymology!

May 9, 2016
Joralemon:

...unable to correctly define the word "hedge."

"It's just like, you know, part of the title" said one trader confidently. "Another way of saying 'badass' fund or 'rockstar' fund." "My Range Rover is hedge," he insisted, as if to corroborate. Other responses were equally absurd, ranging from "a Greek word" to "some Jewish dude's last name."

This story may be a joke, but the "Greek word" response isn't too far off. "Hedge" is the first syllable in the Greek-derived word "hegemon", which is pretty close to being the "Master of the Universe" that we all aspire to be.

Absurd? Nah; guy just knows his etymology!

Kick it, bro. I enjoy being woefully uninformed.

May 9, 2016

I wrote a comment, copied it, left it to read something else, copied from there, then tried to paste it again but obviously the wrong thing came up. Surely by now there should be a system on computers or pads that give users the option of pasting both the former and latter things copied?

Moving on swiftly - great post! But I agree with northsider as there must be a balance; can't be myopic sighted and can't afford not see every situation and person as a moment to sell yourself.

May 9, 2016

Very concise and meaningful post! Thank you!

May 9, 2016

Thanks, it is a reminder for me. I was quite like the guy and focus on future dreams with more time than I had to spend . Partly because I wanted to escape from facing the challenge and problems.

May 9, 2016

i happen to think an analyst being unconcerned about exit opps and clueless about david einhorn is more of a red flag than a positive signal.

May 9, 2016

The tasks are mundane though. Very little of what I am doing as an IBD analyst is helping me become a better investor, given that I already know how to model. My work is so modeling heavy that it does not require any real critical thinking nor gives me any insight into analyzing companies. The girls in the OP sound like they aren't going to get great exit opps, nor do they deserve to, IMO. (actually, if they don't have jobs already, they kinda missed the PE boat, probably because they were too busy kissing ass).

May 9, 2016
goldman in da house:

The tasks are mundane though. Very little of what I am doing as an IBD analyst is helping me become a better investor, given that I already know how to model. My work is so modeling heavy that it does not require any real critical thinking nor gives me any insight into analyzing companies. The girls in the OP sound like they aren't going to get great exit opps, nor do they deserve to, IMO. (actually, if they don't have jobs already, they kinda missed the PE boat, probably because they were too busy kissing ass).

Would tend to agree. I don't know, I mean I will probably always be more like that guy than those girls, so I'm biased, but if he's genuinely trying to better himself and learn on his own in addition to doing his work, I think he's the smarter guy. Anybody can follow orders and be a drone. Very few have the ambition to not only want to be somewhere in a certain period of time (MD at an HF for example) but also do the learning required to help them get there. Now, if he's doing shitty work, that's not good. You have to at least get done what you need to get done. Otherwise, YOU will be done. But I'm in the (probably small) group that's always looking ahead, always trying to be better, always wanting more. Because I know this much...chasing your dream and trying to at least get to where you want, or die trying, is a lot more rewarding than spending your whole life trying to be the good little employee with blinders on. Everyone should try to do good work...and it sounds like he needs to work on that aspect. But as great as those girls might be at their job, it doesn't sound like they actually know (or care to know) very much about anything else besides it. And that, to me, is a negative. But for now, yes, they are definitely the better employees.

"When you stop striving for perfection, you might as well be dead."

    • 1
May 9, 2016

Thanks for the thread, got some really good nuggets of wisdom. Would it be fair for me to summarise the learnings as such?

1. When you start as an FT, work hard so that you actually know what you are doing.
2. Establish yourself as a person that gets stuff done and work on creating a very solid reputation as a highly capable individual.
3. Once your reputation is established, do the minimum work necessary to maintain that reputation.
4. With the spare time you have, start preparing yourself for the buyside recruitment?

This process reminds me of Harvey Specter (suits) talking about the importance of dominating and starting in front of the 8-ball so that no one questions your ability and you can start to do what you want.

May 9, 2016

something that I learnt earlier in my career was that as a minion in the company, I was given tasks to do. Being the go-getter I was, I tend to be focus on completing the tasks I was given and doing it well. For example, if I was given a tasks to analyse 5 companies and present them on a bubble chart in the ppt, my conversation would revolve around what variables should i use, where can i get the data from. Basicalyl all my questions would revolve aroud the bubble chart. However i realised that i should develop the mentality of senior management which is to think larger than the bubble chart. How will this bubble chart fit in the ppt, how else can i present it and to even larger questions can i improve the ppt in any way? with this type of mentality, you would help your boss tremendously.
I would encourage the girls to go further in their tasks! I am not too impress by the guy though. To me work attitude trumps all/most.

May 9, 2016

great post and great advice

May 9, 2016

That's the thing, if you're humble, hard working, amiable, and intelligent, you can outperform a lot of those egotistic people.

May 9, 2016

Get them on the phone for an "informational interview" and make a MEANINGFUL CONNECTION that they can remember you by. They'll likely forward your resume to HR, but the key is to have them have your back when it comes to picking out candidates to interview. I don't believe emailing is enough, you have to get them on the phone and sell yourself as to why they should help you out and how you fit well with the group.

About your GPA, there is really nothing you can do at this point because recruitment is during the early stages of your first semester back, so spin it in a way that doesn't make it sound so shitty. ex "you were doing a bunch of extra curricula's / had a FT job during school, etc"

May 9, 2016

It's all about how many people you will network with this summer.

May 9, 2016

I took a written exam for Morgan Stanley quant strats yesterday. I learned I have some brushing up to do. Other than that, throwing out a bunch of resumes to BBs and prop shops that are doing on campus recruiting, but haven't heard back from them yet.

May 9, 2016
GoCard:

I took a written exam for Morgan Stanley quant strats yesterday. I learned I have some brushing up to do. Other than that, throwing out a bunch of resumes to BBs and prop shops that are doing on campus recruiting, but haven't heard back from them yet.

What topics did they test you on? Anything you recommend to go over? I'll be taking the quantitative exam held by CS in a few weeks

May 9, 2016

It's really tough this year. Most of the BB representatives I've spoken with at our campus career fair said they already got all of their full-time hires from their SA class. My question is, if that's the case, why do they even come?

May 9, 2016

Just to keep up appearances. I applied to a BB IBD regional office via campus recruiting. Emailed a contact in that office about recruiting and he said they were done recruiting already...

Array

May 9, 2016

This has been my experience as well thus far. Many MM and boutiques had many of their SAs stay on as well, very few spots open, not much ocr for my semi-target, so the cold emailing has begun for me

May 9, 2016

Had 3-4 superdays at some of my top choices, but it didn't work out. I think I'm going to take my return offer from a good boutique right below the LAZ/EVR/GH level.

May 9, 2016

Start early and get the junior year internship because FT recruiting is hell.

Though FT has gone better than I thought it would so far, it's still a crapshoot. You're going to get interviews at places you didn't think you would (both awesome and average places) and you're going to get rejected at places you think you were a shoe-in because of your contacts or because it was an average bank (and how could they reject an applicant as great as you?).

May 9, 2016

Contacted my network of alumni and friends which resulted in bunch of 1st rounds. Through these 1st rounds I got couple invites for superdays. Much better than last year recruiting for SA. I still have some 1st rounds to go through and waiting for some connections to refer me at smaller banks.

May 9, 2016

I didn't do as well as I hoped to for SA recruiting, but still ended up at a solid place. Then I leveraged the return offer to get several offers including my top choice for FT so I'm really happy.

I noticed that people are a lot more receptive to you if they know you have an offer from another bank. With FT, It's all about how much effort you're willing to put into getting those interviews and converting them into offers. And doing it fast.

May 9, 2016

What kind of place is your top choice? More like BB or a solid MM/prestigious boutiques? Is it in an industry group or a generalist analyst FT?

May 9, 2016

I was at a solid mm for the summer and leveraged my offer into my first choice BB bank and group. Definitely helped that I had networked extensively over the past 2 years.

I agree with Knicks. Once you have an offer you are a hot commodity, but that isn't really anything new.

Another tip to younger people reading this, for SA I got my offer really really early and it exploded early too. So I talked to my BB contacts and explained the situation and that I wanted to be at that firm full time. They understood my situation and agreed with me. I stayed in touch, and when I got my FT offer I went straight to them and was able to skip a lot of the red tape, interviewed within days of finishing my internship, and landed my offer.

May 9, 2016

Terrible no takers, just a bunch of " you have great experience and resume, BUT were not hiring FT/interns/ anything so go the fuck away"

I hope this is better than the last batch of shit you gave me. Produced more wood than Ron Jeremy. I don't want you to yell, "Reco!" anymore. Know what you should yell? "Timber!" Yeah, Mr. Fuckin' wood.

May 9, 2016

.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

May 9, 2016

Just got an offer from a BB for IBD FT. Non-target and no IB experience. Sold them on fit

May 9, 2016
Comment
  • Financial Rep in Consulting
May 9, 2016
May 9, 2016
May 9, 2016
May 9, 2016