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Comments (87)

Aug 18, 2021 - 6:45pm

EVR/PJT/PWP/Any EB besides Greenhill/Gugg all DAY every day. Higher salary, higher analyst responsibility, better exposure to seniors, WAY better culture (incoming Moelis analysts…). The only downside to an EB is your non-finance friends and girls you talk too won't know where you work. But at that point it doesn't matter because you are making it rain anyway. I got rejected from every EB but work at a lower tier BB and it's so big it sucks! My friends at EVR/PJT/PWP/CVP really like the people there. 

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Aug 18, 2021 - 6:47pm

Does it really matter if your friends or the general public know where you work? I've got friends working at all sorts of places, and ultimately dgaf what they do lol. It's not super relevant.

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Aug 18, 2021 - 10:29pm

What's the point of banking if people don't know you do it? 

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Aug 18, 2021 - 6:45pm

Why PWP and not, say, LAZ/CVP/MOE/etc.? I'm honestly just curious and not trying to be all, "he works at PWP look at this guy!" It just seems like the "big 3" of EBs changes with every thread and it's totally unclear to me what the criteria are. Was it just an arbitrary choice?

Aug 18, 2021 - 6:57pm

Every EB is basically the same with the exception of GH/Gug imo. Personally though from what I've heard, EVR/PJT/PWP are just the best mix of overall culture, comp, and prestige. CVP could easily be in this as well but given the 3 year analyst program and slight discouragement of PE recruiting, it's probably a very marginal notch below. But this is all stupid, any EB is a fantastic option and should make anyone proud!

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Aug 18, 2021 - 10:15pm

I mean, to be fair, Evercore does have a three year analyst program too... if you want to stay on, you have to be a 3rd year analyst (senior analyst) before being promoted to associate...
 

Granted the caveat is probably still valid given CVP's clawbacks or whatnot

  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
Aug 19, 2021 - 10:23am

I'd say because PWP is slightly harder to get a job at due to size/ prestige. They're also growing very rapidly and performing as a better traditional advisory firm, whereas Laz is like a small BB trying to be an EB.

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 20, 2021 - 3:38pm

lol dude they're all good. at this level, the difference between each firm is how much you'd "enjoy" working there.

  • Intern in PE - LBOs
Aug 18, 2021 - 7:25pm

Just curious, is PWP regarded at the same level as PJT/EVR? I thought it was always PJT/EVR/CVP then MOE then everyone else. Sorry to turn this into a rankings thread. Really just curious about what people think of PWP.

  • Associate 1 in IB - Gen
Aug 21, 2021 - 12:34pm

No lol. It's PJT/EVR/CVP then MOE/LAZ/PWP. PWP had a great year so people here have been overrating them. Which is funny because a few years ago people shit on them. 

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Aug 18, 2021 - 9:19pm

Just last year people were saying pwp was on a stagnant trend. Even considering it only above gh in the eb circle. Why have people suddenly exploded making it a top eb among PJT, EVR, CVP.

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Aug 18, 2021 - 9:29pm

They've been killing it in revenue, league tables, and exits. Last year's threads were also nonsense (by people who likely got rejected from the firm). For instance, someone said PWP hadn't been on any large rx deals when they'd been tapped by the treasury for the airline restructuring like a week before. 

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Aug 18, 2021 - 9:51pm

Second this, last year's threads were ridiculous. For context about why they're being hyped now, PWP had a larger combined m&a volume (by value) than PJT and MOE combined in the first half of this year and had higher Q2 revenue than PJT, despite having fewer employees

Most Helpful
  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Aug 19, 2021 - 12:57am

I would take GS/MS over an EB any day. The PE exits are comparable, but the exits to any role outside of PE are far superior. Big part of the pitch for EBs used to be that there is no group selection, but this is no longer the case for a few of them. Also, you quickly realize that group has almost no bearing on PE recruiting (far less important than bank, undergrad school, and GPA). It is impossible to know what you want to do coming out of college, and I believe having the GS/MS name on your resume is invaluable in case you decide to pivot. My life has taken turns that I couldn't have imagined as a senior in college, and the GS/MS name has been instrumental in allowing me to land my dream role. I don't believe my transition would have been nearly as easy if I decided to go with an EB. I almost went with an EB in college but decided against it after receiving advice from an experienced professional, and looking back, I am incredibly happy I listened to the advice. The substantial discount in pay was worth every penny. Rather than taking a pay cut versus an EB, I viewed it as I was buying options on my career. After some unforeseen events, I used that option and landed my dream job. 
Might get crap for this, but I would probably give it more thought if offer was JPM. A lot of friends went there and the exits seem materially worse. The groups are also huge (analyst class is basically size of GS/MS combined). On an absolute basis, GS/MS place better, and on a relative basis they place far better. 

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Aug 19, 2021 - 2:52pm

Moved to a niche part of finance and also moved cities. I interviewed for a broad set of roles though and the GS/MS name carried a lot of weight in all of them. People see the name and immediately understand the training provided, what the analyst program entails, the skills you develop, and how competitive it is to get a role there. 

  • Prospect in IB - Restr
Aug 19, 2021 - 12:24pm

Rather than taking a pay cut versus an EB, I viewed it as I was buying options on my career. 

That's a very interesting way of looking at it, thanks for the insight.

Aug 19, 2021 - 2:43pm

Agree completely with this. And to be honest, I think the only ones who say EB > GS/MS are the ones who didn't get a GS/MS offer and went to an EB

edit - or because EB's recruited earlier. Bird in the hand worth two in the bush. 

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Aug 19, 2021 - 3:08pm

This is entirely untrue. Must EBs recruit before MS/GS start

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Aug 19, 2021 - 3:58pm

I received offers from every BB except Barc, UBS, and DB. Picked PJT/EVR. Most of my friends and intern class did as well. The only ones I know that turned down PJT/EVR were for MFPE internships. I only know 2 people that turned down PJT/EVR and that was for GS TMT. PJT/EVR SA are now the largest feeder into MFPE analyst programs. EBs recruit before BBs and they typically get their choice of the best talent. I likely would've recruited for MFPE, but my offer would've exploded and it was way to early for them to accelerate.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
Aug 20, 2021 - 2:50pm

Analyst 2 in IB - Ind

I would take GS/MS over an EB any day. The PE exits are comparable, but the exits to any role outside of PE are far superior. Big part of the pitch for EBs used to be that there is no group selection, but this is no longer the case for a few of them. Also, you quickly realize that group has almost no bearing on PE recruiting (far less important than bank, undergrad school, and GPA). It is impossible to know what you want to do coming out of college, and I believe having the GS/MS name on your resume is invaluable in case you decide to pivot. My life has taken turns that I couldn't have imagined as a senior in college, and the GS/MS name has been instrumental in allowing me to land my dream role. I don't believe my transition would have been nearly as easy if I decided to go with an EB. I almost went with an EB in college but decided against it after receiving advice from an experienced professional, and looking back, I am incredibly happy I listened to the advice. The substantial discount in pay was worth every penny. Rather than taking a pay cut versus an EB, I viewed it as I was buying options on my career. After some unforeseen events, I used that option and landed my dream job. 

Might get crap for this, but I would probably give it more thought if offer was JPM. A lot of friends went there and the exits seem materially worse. The groups are also huge (analyst class is basically size of GS/MS combined). On an absolute basis, GS/MS place better, and on a relative basis they place far better. 

Couldn't agree more with the options framework. I think the GS discount factors in universal brand name recognition and that goodwill affords you a quicker pivot to non-high finance exits that are just as lucrative and increasingly popular. This is especially true outside of the US. Lots of grads go into banking and realize they want to do something else shortly after, strategy/consulting/BD/partnerships/whatever, and from my own experience compared to peers at EB's, I feel like the brand helped me stand out. That being said, there's not the slightest chance that it's what took me through the finish line, and any of the firms being discussed here are exceptional launch pads for a career.

tldr; Pepsi makes 2x the revenue that Coke does, but it's still Pepsi and it will never be Coca Cola.

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 20, 2021 - 9:44pm

Thanks for the insight. I appreciate you are putting "GS / MS" together since in IB they are above JPM but I would have assumed JPM has a bigger name outside IB than MS, no? (Also not sure if you were at GS or MS). Not trying to say you're wrong, just curious

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 20, 2021 - 9:44pm

Thanks for the insight. I appreciate you are putting "GS / MS" together since in IB they are above JPM but I would have assumed JPM has a bigger name outside IB than MS, no? (Also not sure if you were at GS or MS). Not trying to say you're wrong, just curious

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Aug 20, 2021 - 9:45pm

Thanks for the insight. I appreciate you are putting "GS / MS" together since in IB they are above JPM but I would have assumed JPM has a bigger name outside IB than MS, no? (Also not sure if you were at GS or MS). Not trying to say you're wrong, just curious

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Aug 21, 2021 - 4:22pm

I did, so maybe biased. They all have pretty equal name recognition for IB imo. JPM is definitely a bigger name, but that's because you can get a credit card and a loan from them. 
 

I only included MS/GS because their exits are on par with the EBs, so you're not missing out on PE placement while still getting more career optionality. MS/GS are also less balance sheet driven than JPM, so experience is closer to EB, although still definitely worse. I know a lot of people who went to JPM and their placement is just okay. Someone recently posted a thread with MF exits from different BBs (based on LinkedIn). On an absolute basis, both MS and GS send a fair amount more people to top "top" PE shops. JPMs IBD class is also basically twice the size of GS/MS, so relative to class size, it's not even close. 

  • Intern in IB - Restr
Aug 19, 2021 - 2:55pm

prob like 4/5 top wharton kids would choose eb over bb. would honestly almost say 9/10 but being conservative

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Aug 19, 2021 - 4:05pm

Would not say that at all. Had multiple top Wharton kids in our group (top group at BB) and their friends to who took offers over GS / MS top groups went to buyside, not to EVR / CVP type firms.

To be balanced, however, EBs definitely get smarter, more well-prepared candidates compared to BBs, which is what creates the illusion that the top students take EB over BBs. In reality, it's less a function of them choosing to go there over a BB (ie cross offer between EVR / GS) and more a function of recruiting timeline (EBs generally much earlier) / structure (much greater emphasis on technicals at EBs). FWIW - I went to a target and we had 5+ cross-offers for this summer between EBs and top BBs, and and all of them took the top BB. Associate recruiting has a different set of considerations, but think most college students value the long-term optionality and brand recognition of BBs

Aug 19, 2021 - 5:21pm

I'm an MBA associate at GS/MS, and there is a perception that MBA's care less about brand value and more about money. This is very largely untrue.

MBA programs in the US tend to have young average ages 25-28 ish , we are only a few years into our career. And most of us (80% ish) won't stay on until MD. It's the reason GS/MS is still the most attractive. 

  • Intern in IB - Restr
Aug 20, 2021 - 12:33am

I mean I can only speak for my actual experience man but that's what I overwhelmingly see, at least for this past recruiting cycle.

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Aug 21, 2021 - 4:29pm

Didn't find this to be true at the Ivy I attended. EBs may have attracted better finance students, but not "smarter" people. Typical person going to EB joined an investment banking club first week of freshman year, started networking freshman year, and believes their life will be over if they don't get MF PE. People going to BBs were more of the liberal arts type who had good grades and knew thank IB was a great platform, but weren't entirely set on what they wanted to do with their life.  

  • Intern in IB - Cov
Aug 22, 2021 - 7:47pm

For Ny it's great, but still below the other EBs as they do not focus on trying to land mega deals as much. They focus on rapid fire smaller M&A which is why they still place highly on the overall league table without having mega deals. 

People there I've spoken with say that it does kinda suck that they don't do mega deals but that it also means there is much less pitching since they have so many smaller ones. 

Aug 21, 2021 - 11:28am

Generally I think the EB model is a better experience for analysts and associates to learn how to be good bankers. There are a lot of nuances to each program to consider. Especially because you normally start out as a generalist (think Lazard is the exception but they let you specialize in 2 coverage groups as a junior). MS is also a generalist program to begin fwiw.

I would also add a tier for tmt boutiques like Q, LionTree, Allen which I think you can also make a case for taking over an eb or bb based on your goals

  • Incoming Analyst in IB-M&A
Aug 21, 2021 - 12:11pm

IMO what EB you go to says little to nothing about the quality of your candidacy. EBs fall in and out of Vogue based on movements of rockstar MDs (ex. GHL, P&U from Barc -> Gugg etc). Equating your self worth with that seems ludicrous. The guys shitting on GHL today would have creamed their pants over that offer three years ago. 
 

FWIW: At the target I went to, the best talent exclusively went to EBs - even the likes of PWP/GUGG/GHL over GS/MS/JPM/PJT M&A (ik PJT M&A is not a BB but similar timeline) simply bc of how late they recruit. And most guys would be crazy to turn down a $200k paycheck for the chance to chase clout tokens at Goldman. Most kids who do go to BBs are usually diverse (so timeline doesn't matter) or mediocre/unlucky prospects who did not receive EB offers and are therefore still recruiting in August.

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Aug 22, 2021 - 11:08am

Agree best talent went to EBs, but I think there is a lot more nuance to this situation. On the pay differences, given new pay bumps / recent GS bonuses, pay is less of a difference (ie, 1 / 2 year ANL at GS are now at $110k / $125k, and top bucket bonuses for first and second years respectively have been $115k and $145k). That said, this year is the first year that it's happened so not sure if it will continue into the future (though senior management has indicated to junior IBD folks that it will). All in, a top bucket first year could hit $235k at GS (110 base + 115 bonus + 10 sign on), and a top bucket second year could hit $270k. FWIW - PJT had the same middle bucket bonus payouts as GS this year. 

Agree on the diversity point. 50-60%+ of GS classes seem to be diversity hires or partners referrals, and in conjunction with the lower bar for technicals, creates a class that is less technically strong than the average EB class, which cares much more about pure intellect / competence in finance. I think this is a big reason as to why PJT / EVR objectively have greater MF / top HF exits per capita compared to GS.

On the other hand, I think the alumni network for GS / MS, given the historical reputations for firms like these (with many decades), is strong (ie how GS was pretty frequently referred to as "Government Sachs" in the early 2000s / early 2010s given where the alumni have placed in politics). The heritage for GS / MS in history is substantially stronger, given they have been around for a longer time. I know a friend who left Citi / BofA to go to an EB (CVP / EVR), and multiple MDs were confused by the jump (ie "Totally understand if you are leaving to go to GS, but why would you go to "X" EB?). Obviously, there are clear reasons to make that jump (greater pay, better culture, etc.), but realized that even within investment banking at the BB level, there is a degree of conservatism and valuing heritage / historical track record. Watch Bill Ackman's interviews about who he like to hire, and he frequently says something to the effect of "We hire people from Goldman Sachs / Blackstone's M&A group (ie PJT)". Interestingly enough, many senior folks I know still refer to PJT as "Blackstone's M&A team", despite the spin off. Maybe I'm over-reading, but definitely seems to highlight the value of history / track record. 

Never understood the idea of "more responsibility"; yes - you are working purely on M&A which is more intellectually stimulating, but trust me, at a strong group at GS / MS, I don't think anyone there is looking for more responsibility than they already have given how lean the teams already run (ie one analyst on most deals, and each analyst being staffed on 3-6 deals, 50%+ more being live). Working across products at BBs and having large analysts classes also give you pretty good broad exposure, though the large analyst class benefit is reduced in the COVID situation. Hours depend more on which staffings you are on (which are affected greatly by the team you are on), so hard to generalize across firms. After the bad PR from GS-13, there's been a pretty strict policy on protected Saturdays (ie Friday 9PM to Sunday 9AM). Certainly biased as a GS analyst, but wanted to share at least how I thought about it. 

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Aug 22, 2021 - 12:01pm

OP here. Agree with everything here. Very well put. The whole "more responsibility" thing seems like bullshit when everyone's plate is already full to the brink - only exception being maybe for someone who cares for a generalist/RX experience set. 
 

Also agree that pay will be a non-factor moving forward and that there are many upsides to a classic BB investment banking experience. In fact, I think caring about 50k as an AN1 is kind of short sighted unless you have immediate financial concerns to worry about so was not considering the pay gap as a factor to begin with.

The greater emphasis for me is on timing. Even with the possibility of an all-in comp at GS of 235k and with the brand benefits, if someone has an offer with PWP/Gugg/GHL with the possibility of all-in comp of 210k (just an example - idk what they make just pulling something out of my ass/sorry if inaccurate) - how can they justify punting that offer just to wait 2 months to APPLY to GS given that they don't accelerate unless your last name in mantled on a building in Times Square? Unless diversity, people rarely find themselves in the position to compare EB vs BB unless the BB in question is Citi/RBC/BMO and the EB in question is PJT M&A.

On the point of exit opps, I know people who might be willing to make the gamble for a higher probability of breaking into BX PE or Apollo HVF. But it's the shit show everywhere and from anywhere. Remember how hard it was to break into IB from undergrad and how random the process was. Going to the buyside is the same.
 

If DB can send even one guy to BX, that tells me it's more about the candidate than the group they come from. Especially with things like diversity processes making it harder to pin point 1 or 2 groups as having the best of the best candidates. There is no "Top Gun" for juniors on the street IMO. I know plenty of people who couldn't break into a BB/EB/MFPE career out of undergrad who were sharper than well-connected or diverse candidates who did. HHs know that and so do the buy side shops.
 

Another point on this. Have been meditating on this for the while bc thinking of exits rn as well. So what if we end up at a MF? Sure the LinkedIn will look absolutely fire for a few years, but then what? How long would I want to stay there/work for someone else at all? Sure, any MF is a fantastic career opportunity, but IMO the only BX employee history will care about is Stephen Schwarzman. I'll let you decide whether that matters to you haha. 
 

I think given this, anyone considering IB offers and about to write a ABC vs XYZ post should just focus on going where they like the work and people the most. If you're in the position of comparing IB offers, congratulations - I think you're already on the top of the world. 

Aug 21, 2021 - 1:12pm

In my opinion, there is little-to-no justification for taking GS/MS/JPM over EVR/CV/PJT, at the analyst level, these days. Pay is miles better. Hours are better. Better experience (or at least more responsibility). As-good-or-better exits - due to the experience and a bit more free time to prep. GS might be a (marginally) better platform for career bankers, but guess where you'd have no problem lateraling after a half-decade at any EB? The contention that 'industry doesn't know who XYZ EB is' is laughable as well - Google has heard of Moelis. Sure, some industrial services client in Des Moines might not be familiar, but if that's where you're lateraling as a third-year VP that's being pushed out, you're way better off at that point with an extra $1mm in the bank than you are with "Goldman Sachs" on your resume.

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Aug 21, 2021 - 2:22pm

How would you view this in European (London) context? Still would you choose EVR/PJT/PWP (what majority of comments seems to do) vs GS/MS/JPM?

  • Associate 2 in IB - Gen
Aug 21, 2021 - 8:13pm

EBs in Europe aren't as strong as they are in the US, but the logic still largely applies. Know many Oxbridgel/LSE kids choosing Evercore/PJT over the top BBs in London

  • Investment Analyst in HF - EquityHedge
Aug 21, 2021 - 6:43pm

the WSO obsession with Perella is bordering on so incorrect that I am almost convinced someone started it as an elaborate joke lol

  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
Aug 22, 2021 - 6:51pm

To be fair PWP is killing it this year in 1H 2021, doing better than Moelis Lazard and PJT. I'm at a BB but still gotta respect when one EB is doing well, props to them

  • Associate 1 in IB-M&A
Aug 23, 2021 - 11:02am

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Aug 23, 2021 - 1:58pm

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Aug 24, 2021 - 3:23pm

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