Hi There!
I was wondering if it is better to join a larger institution such as the big4 for valuations or rather a boutique investment bank coming out of top undergrad business school in respect to top 10 MBA grad schools down the line, exit opportunities, skill development, career advancement etc.
As usual, greatly appreciate the input!
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it depends. if its just some run of the mill boutique, id probably go with the big4. deloitte corporate finance for example is a decent MM shop. however, if its a name brand boutique, id go there to build skill/get exposed to deal flow. big4 will be good for mba admissions, know plenty of big4 alumni who went to top b schools (and yes, they all did not work at deloitte).
Boutique. You'll work hard in both, but name brand and pay better at the boutique.
Def cuz no one knows Big4 but everyone knows no-name boutique
1 deal you can discuss in depth on your resume is worth more than 3 years of DCF and public comparable analysis.
The big 4 position is in valuations, so I will not have any M&A exposure. Also, I would like to have exit ops into bulge bracket firms. Isn't any I-banking position better for that as opposed to valuing intangible assets, audit reviews, purchase price allocation etc. ? I know the big4 name is huge but does it not matter what you do there? I have not heard auditors get into top 10 MBA programs.
If your eventual target is BB IBD, you're better off with a boutique IB. Skill set is far more relevant, and you will stand a better chance of making a better move. There are a couple of exceptions - some boutiques like Greenhill hire from Big 4 accounting on a regular basis into 3rd year analyst positions (this is in London).
My Boutique is significantly smaller than lazard, greenhill etc. There are about 12 people with 1-3 analysts. Yes, my long-term goal is I-banking, BB, and eventually top 10 MBA to make an associate in BB. I am not sure but I believe the big 4 has a better reputation and prestige in Europe than in the States.
I guess my question is: Does taking the boutique offer over the big4 harm me in any way in respect to my career? Or is the worse outcome that I end up being in the same position after all with "bad" exit ops because of the unknown name, lack of dealflow etc.? btw. they close about 4-6 deals a year. is that much or nothing?
In terms of deals - depends how lean their deal teams are. If you manage to be on 2-3 completed deals a year, that is decent experience as you will probably be more heavily involved in the deals relative to BB analysts.
Would it not be more direct to do big4 -> MBA -> BB associate, or is that not feasible in the US?
The teams are lean and I would be involved on almost all the deals if not all. As far as I know, it is difficult to get from the big four into the top 10 MBA schools but it might also be difficult from an unknown boutique bank. That is the answer I was hoping to receive here :) secondly, I believe it is going to be very hard to become an associate at BB without any prior direct I-banking experience, especially when most of the candidates do come from an I banking background are more like to get associate roles. During the MBA years, they wont teach u banking but rather give u a chance to recruit again so your background is important. its like a vicious cycle...
Former Big 4 auditor here currently at top MBA program (H/S/W). I would shy away from audit and pursue the boutique opportunity. In my opinion, working for a firm with lean operations will result in a significantly higher level of responsibility earlier on in your career, which in turn leads to enhanced opportunity to gain experience and knowledge. This practical experience will prove beneficial as you look to either leverage said work experience into your second job or eventually look at MBA application essays and ultimately have to speak to your experiences during the interview process (such requiring you to distinguish yourself from the thousands of other qualified applicants). Without a doubt, you should place an emphasis on gaining relevant work experience that will serve as a foundation for your career and will enable you to be a high performer in the industry for which you are passionate. As you are young and just starting out, you should place the highest value on your time as this is your most valuable asset – this time should be dedicated to developing your skills at a firm and in an environment that meet your professional needs.
As you mention exit opps, I assume you simply want to leverage your first job into something that aligns more with your long-term goals, in which case the Big 4 name will carry limited, if any, “brand power”. Speaking from personal experience, I see absolutely no brand power of Big 4 within the realms of high finance or prestigious MBA programs, and I am well aware that most others have similar sentiments. Moreover, depending upon your ultimate career goals, Big 4 could prove detrimental as exit opps are limited and there are various preconceived notions of people coming from Big 4 in the marketplace.
Succinctly, I am one of the very, very few coming from a Big 4 firm that I know at my MBA program, whereas I’ve met countless classmates that have started in the boutique space and either (i) went to a bulge bracket, or (ii) parlayed their experience into a buy side gig.
Lastly – I adamantly disagree with your statement “I believe it is going to be very hard to become an associate at BB without any prior direct I-banking experience, especially when most of the candidates do come from an I banking background are more like to get associate roles. During the MBA years, they wont teach u banking but rather give u a chance to recruit again so your background is important.”
(1) Nobody goes to a top MBA school to learn banking – if this is your intent I would seriously rethink your decision to attend (2) People that only have banking experience are in the minority as most people have transitioned from banking to PE/HF/other industries – nonetheless, these people will be looking to make the jump to the buy side and will only end up in banking if they are unsuccessful. Accordingly, your statement about being at a competitive disadvantage is false. (3) It is more common to see people with both banking and buy side experience at top MBA programs (see above) - these people will not and do not go back to banking and thus your statement about you being at a competitive disadvantage, once again, is false. Overall, your competition for associate banking jobs out of b-school will primarily not be with people who have prior banking experience – the recruiting scene will be much different than you think and allude to in your post.
All the best in your endeavors.
Levered_M7 thank you so much for your thorough response. Very helpful! Just to clarify, I was always told that an MBA will enable you to make the jump from an analyst to an associate at BB and then eventually into PE or hedge fund. Of course there are exceptions. I know that an MBA wont teach you banking. Moreover, my job at the big 4 is in valuations and not audit directly, however, it is perceived in the industry as more of an accounting job than finance. As you correctly mentioned, my long-term goals are BB banking, PE, top MBA and I am not quite sure whether the "big 4 name" and the fact that it is an larger institution will help me more just because of the name or whether an unknown I-banking boutique will help me more because of the direct exposure to the industry, work, experience etc.
That's given that you want to become associate. I don't think you realize how much your career goals change after being in banking/working for a few years. I wanted to become an associate/rainmaker MD, but that quickly changed once I realized how BS the industry is.
What are some name brand botiques to you guys?
Well, this is quite possible and I am not saying I will do that for ever. You experienced it for yourself and realized that, maybe that is something I need to do as well or else I will ask myself for the rest of my life what could have been IF...
To reiterate, and perhaps clarify further, I realize you are evaluating an offer in the valuations group and read that in your original post. Unfortunately, to be blunt, it doesn’t matter; your resume will be branded with a Big 4 firm name and thus you will as well. I have plenty of friends from my accounting days that went from valuations groups, TAS groups, capital markets advisory groups, etc. to buy side firms, however, not in the types of roles I presume you seek.
There are certainly benefits of a large firm vs. small firm given you are referring to companies within the same industry, but you are not. Therefore, I don’t see the potential upside of a large accounting firm (I stress accounting firm) other than surrounding yourself with accountant types and building a network within, well…um…accounting.
You say you want to do banking eventually at some point and you have a banking offer. If you want to do banking then do banking. The answer to your post seems self-evident if you ask me.
Lastly, given you go to a top undergraduate program, utilize this resource. Reach out to alumni who are doing what you want to do and get their perspectives and insights – I think you’ll find there are a good number of people out there who will be receptive and willing to help. As a suggestion, however, I would prepare for these conversations so that you can speak intelligently about your career aspirations and goals, and ask thought provoking questions that indicate you’ve done you’re research…when you do this it makes you show well and potentially opens doors; when you do not, there is obvious downside.
That is exactly what I was anticipating. Going to the big 4 means being perceived as an accountant, no matter what group you join. Yes, I just graduated and have already spoken to Professors and Grad students, however, I wanted to hear more and different opinions, since it is a very crucial decision for me to make. My ideal outcome is to be an analyst for 1-2 years and make the jump to a BB analyst position and continue to MBA afterwards.
I would do the boutique investment bank, just to work in investment banking in the first place.
As for Big 4 Valuations - maybe you can move from that to a BB at least in some FO office role if it's not IBD. Then maybe you can go from the FO non IBD role (i.e. Equity Research) into Banking - not saying that is a common or easy path though, just giving you some ideas.
The route you mentioned is exactly what I am afraid of and actually trying to prevent. I do not want to wonder around not knowing what I am doing and hoping for a miracle to happen.
Define your "long-term goal" as being in banking. Do you mean you eventually want to make it into a brand name bank, work for a couple of years and move on? Or you want to eventually be an MD?
If you want to work a couple and move on, take the boutique offer. You can always look to lateral to a larger bank after 1 or 2 years as an analyst if you want a better name on your resume, and even then you'll have a good chance at moving up the ranks to associate, forgoing b-school if you lateral to the right bank.
If you want to be a career banker, it might make sense to best position yourself for a top MBA (no clue what that is as I've never worked in Big 4 and haven't looked at acceptance rates for MBA from various industries), become a brand name bank associate and head up the ladder.
I'd caution you though, it sounds like you've never had any banking (or accounting) experience, and you won't know if you genuinely want to be a career banker until you're a few years in. So to throw away a boutique offer because you think Big 4 sets you up better for a top MBA, which would hopefully lead to an associate gig, which leads to a career banker path etc is in my opinion throwing way too many variables and unknowns into the mix.
Go be an analyst, if you love it, you'll bust your ass and your reputation and work product should reflect that. Then your bank will be likely to want to keep you around, promote you, and you're good to go. If you go in and hate it, bust your ass, get good deals and experience on your resume and move on after a couple of years.
Honestly, I don't think I am qualified to specifically say what I want to do down the road due to the lack of work experience. Nonetheless, I know that I want to be an analyst at a BB or at least a very good MM Bank such as lazard for instance. 1. This will enable me to have a fair chance for top MBA 2. I will get to know the dynamics of the Banking industry and hopefully know whether I want to be there for the long-run (all the way to MD) or not. Since Grad school is further away, my primary "concern" is really about my marketability for a BB analyst role in 1-2 years.
Start FT at a boutique or Big 4 Valuation grp? (Originally Posted: 01/28/2008)
I'm graduating in May and have 2 offers for FT. The only problem is that neither is with a BB, which is where I wanted to start. I had an internship with a BB last summer in S&T, but wanted to do banking and not trading.
Can you please advise as to whether I would be better off starting with a boutique(it is not well known) or at the Big 4 Valuation group? I think training and brand name would lead me towards the latter, but I would like to hear what you think. Thanks
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