Hi all, Despite being of the minority in that I am not from the US, I have been using this site for over a year and have taken great interest in others experiences, particularly those from the states. I thought I'd have a crack at a Q&A for current Analysts and/or undergraduates in hope that I can contribute something in the same way those before me have, as it really has been helpful. #### A bit about me: I went to what Australians would consider a "non-target" school (the Australian equivalent of targets are called Group of Eight). For my first year out of HS, I studied Architecture in what I have described to a million HR recruiters as a panic move; I had no idea what I wanted to do career-wise at 17 years old (other than playing professional sports). After a year of hating every minute of this, I made the switch to Economics and Finance. Whilst at Uni, I represented my State in one of the biggest sports here. I would probably compare this to D1 sports at a major college in the US. I also played elite level (the level below pros) in another large sport. I missed out on being drafted in the first sport after tearing my rotator cuff playing the second mentioned sport, which was quite a low point in my life. If I were to convert my WAM to GPA, I'd be about a 3.75, discounting my horrendous marks from Architecture. Due to the tradeoff I'd made between sport and studying, I had not paid much attention to a career at the end of my degree (aka being a complete idiot). I missed the boat on internship recruiting and thus hit the panic button - I'd figured I wanted to work in IB but had no idea how to get there. After thousands of emails to different companies, I was lucky enough to intern in Corporate Banking at one of Australia's largest banks, which resulted in a graduate offer that I subsequently took. Corporate Banking was good, however personally, it wasn't for me. I knew where my heart lied, so I read anything and everything to learn more about IB. This is where the beauty of sports comes in to play... Through one of the sports that I played, I'd become very good friends with an Associate who was a few years older than me at a BB. After picking his brain on anything and everything - from recruiting questions to excel shortcuts to what stocks he held in his own portfolio, he offered to put my CV in front of one of his MDs. After a few pretty gruelling interviews where I was questioned on everything I'd ever encountered, from what I hated about Architecture to what part of my rotator cuff I had operated on, I was lucky enough to land a role as a first-year in a Generalist group at the Australian equivalent of a BB (Macquarie/UBS/JPM/GS). I should probably mention as well that my Mum was a VP at 28 in M&A, at a large European IB and my Dad traded Commodities for the same Bank. Both have been out of the industry for >20yrs and didn't make any phone calls to help me because, as they've put it, there are no gimmes in life. At times I wish they'd helped just a little bit, but they got to where they are by themselves, and I am grateful that they made me do the same. Happy to answer any question from any audience at all - from what I've gathered Australian IB seems very different from American IB in hundreds of different facets - from deal sizes to hours to pay, and I'd love to enlighten anyone who is curious on what the industry is like here.
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Hey!
I'm in a similar situation as you were - I interned and have recently accepted an exploding return offer for insto in one of the aus big 4 banks.
I enjoy the culture of the bank and frankly wouldn't mind staying here for life but I'm concerned about long term comp / exit ops given that writing credit reports and annual reviews isn't a particularly rigorous or transferable skill set.
I've got a few questions here if you don't mind:
I know that the comp in big 4 insto is substantially lower than bb/boutique ibd - do you have any idea what all-in comp is at an associate director / director level in insto? Does this differ across product groups (for eg, does the comp differ between levfin and syndications)?
Is there any difference between the work done in the levfin / dcm / project finance teams at the big 4 and similarly named teams in BB? Does the levfin team do any LBO analysis or do they just underwrite debt?
Hypothetically, if I'm looking to transition to M&A when do you reckon is too late to leave, for eg. is it possible to go from assoc director in PF (which is quite modelling heavy as I understand) -> associate in Infrastructure and Energy M&A or would it be too late at that point?
What are your current hours like compared to your hours at big 4 insto?
Great to see some australian representation on here - you've done well and cheers for doing this!
Damn I replied to this and my comment never uploaded. Take 2:
Thanks for the questions mate and congrats on your offer. Completely understand your perspective with the report writing...
At my bank from AD level up comp was negotiated. Run of the mill was generally 150-160, however bonuses weren't paid last year due to the bank being slapped with a big fine. There was an AD who was headhunted by a BB, and in order to keep her it was public knowledge that the bank upped her pay to north of 200k. Not too sure about the Director level, but as you've stated I assume the ceiling in insto is much lower than IB.
LevFin and DCM at the Big 4 are essentially the exact same. The Big 4 get a shit load of the work in this area as well. DCM is pretty vanilla - debt underwriting/arrangement, refinancing etc, whereas LevFin is sexier, higher yield stuff. LBOs are used quite frequently in LevFin (I can only speak for the bank I was at), and I know a few people who have jumped from Big 4 LevFin to PE shops.
I'd say the sweet spot would be 2-3 years, which is generally what they ask for Analysts. It's very unlikely a BB will take you on as an Associate with no experience unless you are entering via the postgrad stream. Having said that, nothing is impossible.
Big 4 hours were very very good. Never later than 7pm, work drinks on Friday, never working weekends. IB is longer as you'd expect, however I gather it is on par with hours of say a regional in the USA. I'd say 60-70 would be run of the mill, 80+ when the foot is to the floor, with both scenarios accounting for a couple of hours on Saturdays and Sundays. In summer if it's hot enough I'd duck out for a swim at the beach in the evening before heading back in for the night shift too.
Hoping this is of aid, if you have any more questions please get in contact!
How's the work life balance? Considering doing a year in Australian offices for a year as part of mobility programs.
Work-life balance is far better than what I've read in parts of the US. Personally I have so much respect for those guys slugging it out week in and week out.
I'd say standard week would look like 60-70 hours, 80+ when busy (both scenarios including a few hours each day on weekends). The beauty of Australia is that I can duck out of the office in the evening, go for a swim at the beach, and head back in at night. Would strongly advise against this in your first week but...
I couldn't recommend a stint in Australia enough. A lot of the seniors at my bank are Americans who did exactly what you are considering and never left.
Also interested - how is dealflow and hours generally?
Hey mate, I've answered the question re. hours above. Hopefully that provides some insight.
Dealflow wise, unless you're at a top bank you won't be touching $1bn. The elite boutiques do very well too - Moelis, Lazard, Luminis (Australian Evercore), Flagstaff, Gresham, etc. There's more than enough to make the wheels turn. I have been lucky in the sense that M&A and ECM in Australia has really taken off over the last 12 months, so there's been plenty to do.
Thanks mate! Really want to make it over to Sydney someday, looks like a better version of SF.
Cheers for doing this mate! A few questions:
1) Do you think you would have the ability to work internationally at some point in your career? I.e. intrabank transfer?
2) What are some of the stories you have heard about summer intern/graduate recruiting? How do your peers shortlist applicants?
3) Best hangouts for bankers in the city that you work? (guessing Melbourne or Sydney?)
4) Are the low-tier BB's in the US (e.g. DB/CS/Barclays etc) also generally regarded as low-tiers in Australia?
5) As an Australian analyst, what is your bank's training program like? Do you get to go to New York or Singapore etc. as a 1st year analyst?
Thanks!!
Not OP, but thought I will provide my $0.02 - hope you don't mind.
1) It's somewhat common. GS encourage travel upon the A2A promote - I've seen guys transfer to the NY and London offices, though they can stay in Australia if they really want. I'd imagine the opportunity is there at most banks, if you're a decent performer.
2) I'd imagine this varies from bank to bank, but assuming an applicant meets the minimum and automated culling criteria (based on WAM and sometimes even ATAR) the resume is printed and ready to be screened. I haven't sat on the other side of the recruiting table, but have been told resumes are printed and categorised in accordance with your school. Then an analyst from your alma mater will look through resumes from that school and sort into a yes/no pile for interviewing.
The approach to recruiting is less standard when you leave the meatier end of the market and look at middle-market and elite boutiques. Some hold networking nights and source interviewees strictly from that, others don't formally advertise and are only interested in students who reach out to them (have heard this is the case with Moelis, but unconfirmed).
4) Not really. CS is relatively strong here and has historically had decent exits into PE. UBS and Macquarie tend to dominate Australian league tables, despite being looked at as second-tier (or lower) in the US. GS as per expectation, still ranks highly in Australia.
5) Varies from bank to bank. Some banks do send all Australian recruits to NY for training (GS did this last year) and it varies for other banks.
Good information here. Can confirm.
Thanks @John Tuld for the input. Definitely factor in his two cents.
International moves are very common. GS do encourage it as stated, and from what I've seen there seems to be a good community of Aussies in the states. I went skiing in Switzerland over the Christmas break and fell in love with Zurich. If only I could speak German and there were beaches there!
To land an internship job, either know somebody in the office or have immaculate grades it seems. The same rings true for grad positions, however a vast majority of these positions are filled by interns who are good. In my opinion the X factor would be to have something on your CV which is worth talking about, however this is subjective to whoever is interviewing you and I guess somewhat requires an essence of luck (some people talk about sport all day, some like music, debating, etc).
Wherever has good beer on tap and the footy near your bank will always suffice on a Friday evening.
DB has previously been quite strong but appear to be sliding slowly. CS are quite strong as well. It's hard to digest that in the USA Macquarie is a mere afterthought to some, considering how prominent they are here. I also forgot to mention MS, who are very, very strong as well across Australasia.
As John Fuld said it varies bank to bank. JPM send new Analysts to NY for a month for training as well as GS.
Hoping this helps you mate, and thanks for the questions.
Thanks for doing this thread. Since I'm currently studying in Australia, have some questions:
1) How hard it is to land FT offer without previously interning at the bank?
2) Is lateral move from a local boutique to a MM or even BB/EB viable? Have you seen anyone pulled this?
3) How much international student status will hurt my chance when it comes to recruiting? I know most banks just explicitly state that PR/Citizenship is required, but have you known anyone break into Aus IBD with international student status?
Looking forward to your response!
Thanks for the questions:
If you have IB experience then it definitely helps. Eg. if you interned at MS and applied at GS, you'd be held in good stead, as long as you have a story for why you didn't take that FT job.
Yep. Be the perfect combination of brains, experience, work ethic and technical skill, and it will definitely pan out in your favour when the opportunity presents.
I've never seen an Analyst be sponsored upon recruitment. It is quite prevalent at higher levels where travel is often encouraged, but not at Analyst level.
If that firm is Macquarie, I think I have a pretty good idea as to which former athlete you're referencing. Thanks for the write-up, good to see a fellow Aussie on here.
Your input is appreciated mate. Fly the flag
Love this thread, great to see some Aussie exposure in a very americancentric forum. Though I did come from a GO8, I respect those that work their hardest and this post encapsulates that sort of environment you'll be surrounded by, with people that are as driven and focused as you. To all IBD hopefuls out there, if I could offer one piece of advice, I would say that cultural fit is really important!
Well put mate, people always seem to underestimate how crucial cultural fit is (especially in Australia, where a large BB summer class is maybe 10 kids).
+1 to this ... as someone doing interviews/networking chats/HR etc. This is the one thing that always comes up. Can teach all the technical skills but can't teach that
Great post - also a non Go8 pleb here haha! One question for you.. I've mostly been interested in markets as a career path but I am wondering what your thoughts/knowledge are on the opportunities for analysts at BB S and T are to move into IB intra/inter bank.. More for my curiosity more than anything! Cheers
Good to hear mate, own that background.
I haven't seen anyone move from S & T to IB in my own experiences, however wouldn't ever call it impossible if you are the right fit. Being within the bank could only improve your chances as well as it gives you the chance to build a relationship with those that you need as well - I dare you to ask one of them to grab a coffee when they're free. If you cover equities on the floor as well, a move to equity research would also make a lot of sense.
Good luck, and let me know how your coffee goes.
Thanks for the AMA, always nice to see some locals!
1) Have you worked with any ex-Big 4 (Acc’g) since you’ve transferred to IB? If yes, what is your view in terms of their strengths and weaknesses?
2) Could you talk about modeling skill set expectations as an Analyst 2 in a bigger bank. How was your modeling test in terms of difficulty, and is it generally something that’s not too difficult to pick up once you land the role? In my current role I’m getting great overall M&A exposure but we rarely ever model which scares me quite often.
3) Is there any client interaction whatsoever at your level? Or is this something that one may hope to look forward to when they hit Associate at a bigger bank?
Thanks mate, appreciate your response!
Thanks for the questions mate.
1. I personally haven't worked with anybody from Big 4 accounting backgrounds, but assuming you are talking about TAS/Deals/Corporate Finance work I'd very safely assume there are transferrable skills. Big 4 TAS to IB is definitely a feasible move. In terms of strengths, I think being familiar and an expert within a specific product (M&A, Modelling, DD) definitely works to an advantage, as well as being a disadvantage. I can also see how a strong accounting base would be of use, particularly within valuation and modelling components. As previously touched on, my biggest concern would be the silo that you are put in within a TAS team at one of those firms, as well as live deal experience - I met somebody through a friend who worked at one of the Big 4 in the west, and he eventually left because he was working IB hour weeks for a fraction of the salary, was constantly pitching for deals, and his firm could never close a deal.
2. Modelling is very important. My modelling test was a bit funky in that I was asked to draw and talk through a model on how I'd value an early stage tech company - I'd imagine tests at superdays are different. If you have a legitimate interest in modelling, there are hundreds of databases on the internet which can get you up to speed with best practices and common techniques.
3. Generally speaking, there's a bit of client interaction; enough to keep you happy as an Analyst. I've been along to my fair share of pitches and meetings maybe a little more frequently than some (not all) of my colleagues, which is always a promising sign. I think I'm lucky in that talking comes quite naturally, I get along with my MD and seniors, and they've trusted me enough to take me along for some of the rides. Associates definitely get more interaction on average though - it's a big bonus if you get to go to meetings as an Analyst I hear.
Any more questions please let me know!
Appreciate the reply back and the detailed responses - thanks a lot!
One more question that came to mind: -I’m currently evaluating my options as to where I should apply and after hearing some thoughts from people I got almost turned away from applying for roles within the UBS/MQ/GS-type banks at the top of the leaderboards as I’ve seen a trend of MDs/VPs not really caring too much about their Analysts in the long-haul and just squeezing every last drop out of them as opposed to keeping progression of the individual in mind. Given I do want to stay within a bank for the longer term, I’ve been mostly directing my search towards boutiques as I feel generally they don’t throw Analysts under the bus as much. Given your experience, what are your thoughts?
Just a follow up response of sorts, apologies for the wall of text!
I’m currently within one of the lead M&A advisory divisions so in essence a ‘boutique’ bank of sorts, only that we mostly work on very LMM deals in most cases. The issue with that is that due to the low fees, modeling in our division is generally considered a loss-making activity and we just usually end up evaluating inbound offers on a multiples / comps basis to see if they are somewhat reasonable. In most cases we work with individuals who have found their business and just want to get out, as such, even if offers are low, the chances of them not accepting them are also extremely low.
With that being said, considering my future career moves I’m extremely happy with my deal experience thus far, exposure to preparing/attending pitches, drafting materials and general financial analysis but straight forward 3-way modeling is something that definitely scares me come interviews. I’ve been practicing BIWS on and off, but seems like I really need to make the time to try and get some really solid time in which due to the hours is unfortunately a little difficult.
Additionally, appreciate your insight regarding client interaction, I have heard some horror stories of having to be locked in the dungeon just monkey-ing away in a BB which is definitely a scary thought given we get quite a bit of freedom/exposure in the Big 4 due to the teams being pretty small. Great to hear this isn’t generally true!
Again thanks for the AMA and the very detailed responses. Don’t even know if we’ve had an Australian AMA on here in the past couple of years, as such this is indeed very valuable!
Hey, thanks for doing this. Due to my SO, I'm considering a career switch further down the line that would land me in Sydney/Melbourne (preferably Melbourne as that's where her family is from. I'd be at least a VP in NYC when the move happens.
How difficult would it be to leverage my role in NYC into a job in banking in Australia as a, say, VP in ECM? What about a VP in S&T?
What do you think is the hottest market/desk market in Australia right now? I've only been in finance a few years so I could definitely tailor/modify my career path in NYC prior to searching for a job in Australia in ~5 years.
How are Americans typically viewed in finance jobs in Australia? I understand they are relatively common in the field.
Much appreciated!
Oh man, I love being able to interact with you New Yorkers and I'm glad my post has reached you.
I think it would definitely be possible, as well as a great opportunity, so long as you have local knowledge of your product. The New York brand would also definitely help you here.
I'm definitely not the right person to cover hot desk jobs, so if anyone else has a bit more expertise in this then please contribute! Having said that, people hear chinese whispers about FX traders making big money, especially with the volatility in the global markets. From my own experience (and I don't know how similar this is to the states), most s&t in Australia is done on flow orders.
You're going to be the first person I confess this to, but I, as well as others I'm sure, am a sucker for an Ivy League background. Working in NY definitely demands a great level of respect down under, but at the end of the day you need to also be able to meet the expectations that are there - definitely a favourable position if you ask me.
Thanks for reaching out, and start brushing up on the market here. Grab that opportunity by the nuts when it comes.
Thanks for all of the valuable insight man. Regarding #1, how would you suggest I go about obtaining the "local knowledge" on a product prior to landing and working a job there? I was more of the opinion that if I learn the product well in NYC, I'd be able to kind of put in my time once I land a job in Australia and learn the local nuances over there. Do you think it's necessary for me to learn how the products work in Australia over here in NYC first? Appreciate it.
Can give some insight to 2. Securitisation market is Australia is huge, lots of players in the market-big 4 banks, and IBs-DB, jpm and UBS.
Most other trading is fairly vanilla and flow based in Aus. Depending on your bank, trading wise you could be purely a price taker and just backing out all your risk.
Other than that not a whole lot of more exotic products, closest you will get to structured credit would be some xva function.
Thanks for the scoop. So I'm guessing no real big market in terms of equity structuring/solutions? I'm not really in vanilla/flow trading, it definitely sounds like Aus is more about securitization as you've said and has a bigger banking presence in general than S&T.
Hey mate, firstly thanks for doing an Australian AMA! Got a few questions i'd like to ask you:
Thanks for the questions brother, I'll give them a crack:
Analyst positions at BBs generally ask for 1-2 years of previous IB experience. You are absolutely spot on in that MMIB here is quite unclear - Corporate Finance teams such as the Big 4 and smaller advisory shops get a fair bit of m&a work. My best advice would be if you're wanting to break into m&a, get relevant deal experience wherever you can, whether it be a boutique or a Big 4 team, so that come interview time you're able to walk through the process from start to finish and leverage off your own experiences. BBs have taken people from both backgrounds before which definitely helps. Same goes for say ECM - a lot of broker shops such as Bell Potter get large quantities of raisings and IPOs.
Analyst level starts at 114k. Top bonus is circa 80%. Associates start at about 180k with 100% bonus. My knowledge into VP and above is more unclear, but hours-wise there's an inverse relationship between pay and hours worked as always. Associates stay to about midnight when it's busy, and anywhere between then and 10pm normally/when it's less quiet.
ER is a very touchy topic. Personally I love it, that's where my passion for IB stems from - when I was at Uni I'd model company projections to calculate a target price and see how close I could get. I think there's always going to be a place for ER on the buy-side, however on the sell-side and from a brokers perspective I believe it's getting harder as everyday investors can now invest using online platforms and their own research. A crazy amount of research reports aren't even used as well, which sucks and is a waste of resources really. If you know your coverage industry and are outperforming historically, I think there's always going to be a place for ER however.
Downsides would definitely be pay and deal exposure. I wouldn't have anywhere near as large deals as NYIB teams would have on their CVs. Pay-wise, if you adjust the AUD to the USD, and standardise costs of living etc, we are still somewhat behind NY. You could argue exit ops too, but most IB analysts don't leave to PE after 2 years, people stay.
Hope this helps you, sorry for the delay as well it's been a fkn long day haha.
Hey dude,
What is the comp like at each level in Australia? Seems very hard to get decent info on this so would be great to get insight. Thanks.
Hey brother,
I just answered this above. At VP and above I'm not 100% sure, but I'd expect that VPs would be in the ballpark of 250-300k before bonus.
Associated getting $360k all in? Balls mate.
How much do you pay for avocado toast?
Hate to admit it but I'm an acai man. Had to cut out loose carbs when I began sitting down all day... my metabolism fucking sucks all of a sudden
it’s what happens once work life begins, age and belly will get to ya
Hey really appreciate you taking the time for this. Have heard some conflicting opinion so wanted to get your viewpoint as well. Where would you place MS in the rankings for Investment Banking in Australia? Are certain groups at the top?
Also, any idea on the process for lateraling from a MS/JPM type firm to GS if I want to work in Australia? (If MS is not that competitive in the region)
Hey mate, thanks for the question.
MS were the 4th largest IB here by deal volume last year ($32bn). I would still consider them a top BB. They also seem to place an abnormal number of their staff in to PE as well here, considering IB is generally a longer career here than in say the USA. They seem to be most prominent in infrastructure and TMT, however also are advising on a pretty good M&M deal at the moment.
I can't see any issues with switching firms here too - it seems to be quite common. MS are always one of the top ranked IBs in the APAC region, so I'd definitely think long and hard before switching.
Hope this answers your question.
Awesome thank you for the insight! Very helpful!
Thanks for doing this. Real simple question: I keep reading about 'insto' in other people's questions and your responses. What does it mean?
Institutional Banking within one of the Big 4 banks in Australia (CBA, NAB, Westpac and ANZ)
Hey,
I'm interested in working in IB in Australia (I'm also Australian.) I go to a UK uni so couldn't apply for summer internships as they're in Nov- Feb (I believe) and I had uni during that time.
Many thanks!
How large is the size of your team? Also, if you were to give a rough estimate of the average size of deal you would work on from a M&A perspective, what would it be? From a career standpoint, do you see yourself in IBD long term?
Thanks for the AMA!
Hey mate,
I'm currently in a Big 4 Bank's Institutional Graduate Program - which teams would be the best to go full time into, and for how long would it be reasonable to stay at a domestic bank before people start questioning whether its too late to move across into IB? I know past grads have left within 3-4 years (if not sooner) but would it be a disadvantage to stick around longer than that if I wanted to break into IB eventually?
I also would love to know this. I assume corporate finance, levfin and project finance would be the best teams but could OP confirm?
deleted
Yes PE space is small, littered with no brand shops
Hey mate, Just bumping a previous question that you haven't replied to: What would be the best groups within big4 insto to transfer into IB in Aus?
Thanks for the AMA from Downunder
project finance for infra, utilities & resources team
lev fin, coverage teams for IB M&A and lev fin
Hey Modelguru61
I’m from Adelaide and in a similar situation to yourself, just graduated a bachelors degree in entrepreneurship and while I was studying I didn’t worry about career pathways, doing internships etc (silly) as I was working on a startup and thought that would take off.
I’d love to connect and pick your brain on breaking into IB in Australia if you’ve got some free time for a call in the next couple of weeks.
Just wanted to comment that I fucking love Australians and look forward to meeting more of you guys on my next vacation!!!!
What is the minimum WAM required to enter IB as a commerce student from UniMelb?
anyone know the work life balance on BB vs EB/Boutiques in Aus?
Bump
From what I've seen BB work life balance is better, but I've heard horror stories from both and it depends on the individual bank.
Care to share any details on specific BB horror stories?
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