Systemic Oppression of Non-Target Students

There is systemic oppression of students from non-target schools in banking jobs. Here's the facts:

-Much easier to break into ib from a target. (Target School privilege)

-there are probably 10x more target/semi-target students in ib jobs compared to non target students, even though there are many more non-target students.

-You basically have to major in finance to get a top job from a non-target, but you can major in basically anything at a top-target.

-Many non-target resumes are thrown away.

Comments (198)

Most Helpful
Jul 6, 2020

I wonder how the liberal target-school bankers will reply to this. They think it's stupid, but it exposes their ideology.

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Controversial
  • Intern in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

LAC target here. If you're referring to the "can get in with any major" part, it's b/c the whole appeal of liberal arts is being taught how to think. In reality, your major doesn't matter all that much. Obviously an Econ/Math/Comp Sci/ whatever STEM major might be favored, but none of them are taking finance courses.

I think the reality is you can learn finance needed for IB somewhat easily, especially if you're coming from a top LAC. Most alums I speak with talk about the learning curve being steeper at first for LAC kids, but in the long run they surpass finance and trade-school type majors b/c the ability to think critically, write well (a very undervalued skill in IB from what I hear), etc.

Also I think people too often overlook the fact that if you go to a top school, you're probably really hard working and very smart. Feel like there is this attitude towards target school kids that all of them got in as legacies or b/c daddy's money, and that non-target kids didn't get in b/c they couldn't afford it or were somehow cheated in the process. Maybe sometimes this is true, but c'mon.

Also I'm still in college so plz don't shit on me if this is wrong

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  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

I personally went to a non target private school on a full ride over an Ivy that would have cost $300k all in. I could not justify those type of loans.

Edit: I also did not know I wanted to pursue finance.

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Jul 6, 2020

Incoming junior bankers expect to be knee deep in Excel all day only to realize that the majority of comment turns relate to "rewording" and "repositioning" companies in a CIM. Quality writing skills are underappreciated during the recruiting process.

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Jul 6, 2020

how well you think = sounding/being smart but not getting anything done

Or maybe my distaste to these types of comments is because being able to articulate yourself well is something I view as important but struggle with.

Jul 7, 2020

Harvard is 14% legacy

20% athletics

That's at most 34%, and maybe as little as 20% (Still a fuckton).
Add in the systematic discrimination against whites and asians and the huge preference for private schools, and you end up with a student body that is oftentimes really not that much smarter than anywhere else.

For reference, see the deloitte girl who nobody could possibly stand to be in a room with and has a room temp IQ

Array

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Jul 7, 2020

Worked with a kid who was had a LA major from a target. The dude worked 100 hour weeks until he had mastered IB from a junior level standpoint. It did not come easily for him and there were a lot of mistakes made during his first six months. He worked hard to teach me (an Accounting major) and I still remember the level of effort he put in to mentor me as an intern. He was the most thorough and technical analyst, and was a top modeler despite no experience in finance leading up to his first year as an Analyst. Yes this is anecdotal, but OP is correct in my experience. Being taught how to think and learn quickly is the primary purpose of education until you are a post graduate student.

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Jul 10, 2020

Why in the hell are you offering your moronic opinion if you're still in college?...

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  • Analyst 1 in Other
Jul 7, 2020

You're not born with non target status dipshit

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Jul 6, 2020

What's a non-target.Sorry if it's dumb question I just got this account.

Funniest
  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Jul 7, 2020

Someone who goes to IU Kelley

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Jul 7, 2020

You must feel bad the Kelley kids make more than you and are not crippled with student debt.

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Jul 6, 2020

I am so happy I secured my offer when I did. Things are looking really bad for me right now from a social and a trading standpoint because I haven't been with a girl in months and this virus only worsened things, but dear Christ am I happy that I signed my offer when I did (May) because if everything bad was hitting me all at once PLUS my career thing, I'd be coping with a post like this and probably even worse. Thank you Lord for securing me a job so early on in the cycle because if I didn't get it, idk how bad I'd be. I wish you the best of luck, there is no systemic oppression (practically there IS one) it is all in your mind, the real enemy is within. You have to want this more than anything else in your life. I applied to over 200 workplaces and got rejected consistently, and when it came time for 2021 IB recruitment I got aggressive and started HAMing LinkedIn and all my old (very few) accumulated connections. The truth is that no professional cares about you and no one feels pity for you, corporations are all more or less the same in how they hire and who they hire. What I suggest you do is grind harder and harder, stop sleeping, learn MORE, do WHATEVER it takes. My friends cringed at me for my emailing and LinkedIn tactics, but guess what, I got an offer months ago and they are STILL trying to get a first round interview. I go to a non-target and I got into a upper tier BB, it IS possible, but you HAVE TO WORK. I promise you, if you have enough passion for finance it will not even feel like work. I love finance with a flaming passion, more so than any spoonfed Ivy kid could. I come from poverty, but trust me, no one cares about that, for that reason, I let my ABILITIES and DRIVE speak for me. If you put your soul into it, like really into it, I promise you the opportunity will come up, you just have to make sure you grab it.

I am sure many people see IB as just 'another job' or some career, but to me I see it as the gateway out of my current lifestyle and irrelevance. I love the opportunity I've been given and treasure it more than anyone could ever imagine. I thank God every single night for it; some may see it as 'cringey' or as me overthinking it, but when you love something, it truly does NOT feel like work, this is a cliche that I embody deeply. I wish you the best of luck.

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Jul 6, 2020

thanks Richard.1

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  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020
:

I haven't been with a girl in months

Try "years"

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Jul 6, 2020

Patience friend, we'll get through it.

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

interesting

Jul 6, 2020

Are you related to Richard.3?

Array

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Jul 6, 2020

yea, that's literally the definition for target/non target school

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Jul 6, 2020

Probably a troll but whatever, I'll bite. What would be fair to you? Target schools are harder to get into and have a stronger pool of students.

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Jul 6, 2020

no one is saying there's anything wrong with target school kids, the point is that non target school kids are not inherently not -as-smart target school kids

Jul 6, 2020

On average they are smarter and there's a guaranteed minimum at target vs non-target.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Jul 6, 2020

I've always been curious how much of target school recruiting is correlation vs causation.

Is it just the case that, at a top target like Harvard, the kids are generally smarter and more hardworking than a non target state school, and thus they place better in recruiting? They likely have better standardized test scores (and will thus perform better in pre-interview IQ test type things), write better cover letters, and are more knowledgeable during interviews.

Or is it just that banks prefer targets, kids at targets get more opportunities, and are thus able to place better?

Curious how much of it is the actual caliber of candidates vs banks just preferring target kids.

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

I mean it makes no sense for banks to make an equal effort to recruit Bama kids as they do for H/W kids. They have a preference for a reason, and students at top schools have already been "pre-screened" to an extent. There's already have a surplus of qualified candidates at top schools, where they also have strong connections to keep feeding in top talent from

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Jul 7, 2020

just want to clarify one thing. you use the phrase "non - target state school" does your usage here refer to state schools that are non-target or do you mean to imply that all state schools aren't target. if it is the latter do you honestly consider UCBerkeley, UCLA and UMichigan to be "non target"?

Array

Jul 8, 2020

Great question, if I say I like "orange bananas" do you think I mean to say all bananas are orange?

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Jul 10, 2020

mich is different they recruit rly well. berkeley isnt a target tho

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Jul 6, 2020

Fucking hilarious. Banana rewarded.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

This is honestly a funny topic being posed. I chuckled a little. Although, systemic oppression hardly applies to school name. The name of where you go to school is hardly an identity trait. Further, there is no historical treatment that disfavors kids from generally getting jobs just because of nontarget status. Additionally, the most basic characterization in the target vs nontarget distinction is merit.

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Jul 6, 2020

If you want to get an even bigger kick out if this, see OP's thread yesterday about systemic oppression (wrt to race/ ethnicity) not existing.

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Jul 6, 2020

But we're not talking about groups of people, we're talking about individual candidates

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  • Analyst 2 in HF - EquityHedge
Jul 7, 2020

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/ups...
but for the fact that "target schools" are highly correlated with parental wealth?
if the concept of systemic oppression = inter-generational wealth caused by historical racism, I couldn't think of a better example of systemic racism than US colleges

I don't care for this ideology, but if institutions are going to care, then stop allowing target schools to hoard opportunity and propagate inequality. That would be more meaningful than this silly 15% pledge.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Jul 8, 2020
Analyst 2 in HF - EquityHedge:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/ups...
but for the fact that "target schools" are highly correlated with parental wealth?
if the concept of systemic oppression = inter-generational wealth caused by historical racism, I couldn't think of a better example of systemic racism than US colleges

I don't care for this ideology, but if institutions are going to care, then stop allowing target schools to hoard opportunity and propagate inequality. That would be more meaningful than this silly 15% pledge.

I agree systemic oppression is a wealth deficit in black communities, but I'd think AA goes a long way toward attacking the issue in regards to earning more through education. The opportunity at target schools may only exist, and may be justified by the hierarchical organization that target school designation represents.

The target designation implies preferred treatment. But that preference is essentially hurting them in a lot of ways, right? Don't you think they're missing out on talent and not the other way around? Realistically, an easier way to destroy that privilege of Wall Street, Tech, and Consulting is to force them to pay market rates.

The only reason a kid in his 2nd/3rd year at Rutgers wants to work on Wall St when some of his friends are happy to make manager at Duane Read, is because of the high pay offered by those finance firms.

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Jul 10, 2020

Income is highly correlated with iq. iq is largely genetic. Therefore, smart people on average make more money, and their kids are smarter. The targets take them cause they're smart, not cause they have money. This is a clear case of correlation =/ causation. The causation iq, not wealth.

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Jul 6, 2020

I can't tell if you're trying to be funny or if you're just plain stupid

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  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

Yea I chose to slack off during high school and couldnt get into a top school because of that, but I still want equal treatment!

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

I didn't read all the other stuff above, but to be fair, there are other reasons why someone might not be at a target/ivy. Some kids get into many "targets" but cannot afford them, and in turn go to their instate flagship school. Many of these kids haven't even heard of IB at that point and therefore the opportunity cost of 100k+ debt doesn't seem worth it. It's one thing if they're from East Carolina State, but you can't just write someone off when they come from a school such as UF, UW Madison, etc.

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  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

I know. Was more of an exaggeration/poking fun at the obvious joke post. But it's pretty clear why banks arent going to try just as hard to recruit from nontarget schools as for their target schools. I mean, that's a big reason people even want to go to top schools. Of course there are smart kids at every school, but that's why nontarget students who grind can still land a top role. For example, at UF they have an MSF program that a lot of the serious, hardworking finance students pursue, and several of them even land roles at Evercore every year

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Jul 6, 2020

How was your time at UF or UW Madison?

Array

Jul 7, 2020

As someone who did slack off and is going to a semi-target, this isn't really always true. Coming from a state ranked extremely high for public schools and a middle class highschool year class size of just over 300. I'd say there were at least 40 students in my year dedicated to going to a top college (think 32+ACT, top 10%, clubs etc). I believe we sent 1 non-athlete to an ivy school and maybe 4? to actual high target schools. These kids aced all of their classes, had 98 or 99% standardized testing scores and were usually in a variety of extra-curriculars. However, top targets aren't really a meritocracy.
Now, how many of these 40ish kids were truly ivy tier? I don't know, maybe 5 or 10?
If they were legacies, the top kids would have gotten into ivies

If they were athletes, they would have gotten into ivies

If they went to an elite prep school with a 50-60k tuition where they would have certainly succeeded, they would have gotten into ivies

If they were black women, they probably would have gotten into ivies. Anecdotally, the one kid we sent is a black guy going to Harvard but I don't think he was even in the top 15 of the class.

Stick any one of the top kids at a non-shit inner city public school into the boots of a rich kid going to Deerfield or getting extensive college application advice and he would turn out the same. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, as I hope that I can send my kid to an elite prep school and have his life be as easy as possible. But lets not pretend that everyone who isn't at a top school just slacked off or was dumb in HS. Most top kids from my school just went to the state flagship.

EDIT: For reference: Class size of under 250 sending over 40 kids to ivies alone. Obviously, its fair to say that the entire class was more dedicated than the average public highschool student which is weighed down by the "failures" in school. However, I don't think its unfair to say that the top 30-50ish at any public highschool would have placed just the same if they went to the private school instead.

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Jul 10, 2020

Dude this is spot on. Have thought this for a while now but seems difficult for many to grasp. High school kids no matter how ambitious or intelligent rarely know about IB let alone the concept of a target school UNLESS they a) go to a prep / target feeder type school or b) have family members and/or friends in finance/business. As someone who was content going to flagship state school in non target market (this is also important), I didn't find out about IB until sophomore year and by then it was too late (non target kids have to work extra hard, i.e. great internship sophomore year, near perfect grades, etc). I still worked my ass off and spent a lot of time on this board trying to make it happen and had a couple regional MM / boutique interviews but no luck (they hired the kid with a 3.9 with top top internship iirc and girl who was captain of the D1 soccer team - that's just how it seems to go a lot of times) and ended up going to law school rather than settle (this was always the plan and not just a last minute thing bc I struck out of IB). Things ended up working out and I'm at a big law firm now where there are many Fairfield county --> prep school --> target types who think the same way many of the ones on this board do - that non target kids weren't as ambitious as them or didn't work as hard. I understand why banks focus so much on targets bc there is a floor as far as intelligence but I also think it's wrong to write off the highly motivated kids at a UF or other flagship state school just bc they decided to attend their flagship state school bc they weren't aware of the concept of a target / didn't grow up in Connecticut or have parents in finance.

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

UCLA resumes get thrown away too

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  • Prospect in IB - Ind
Jul 6, 2020

really? wouldnt have thought so with it being such a reputable school

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

Yeah, they get thrown out when sent to NYC firms, and on the West Coast, EBs and top BB groups usually throw them out in replacement for Ivy kids who want to be on the West Coast

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Jul 6, 2020

Does this mean that UCLA< Kelly?

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

Kelley places more than twice the amount of kids UCLA sends into IB lol

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Jul 6, 2020

UCLA isn't a target, that's the point of this thread

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Jul 7, 2020

It is incredible. I work at a west coast BB and the lack of UCLA people at my firm and others is shocking- surprisingly Id say at least 1/3 of kids come from top east coast schools. (Wharton, Princeton, Duke, etc... just kids who grew up in the area and went away for college). Maybe then another third from Berkeley, USC, Stanford, Pomona, CMC, then the other 1/3 of a mix of people. I think UCLA only sends like 25 kids in finance a year through this one program- which is small for its size and academic prestige.

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Jul 7, 2020

They need an undergrad business degree program like Michigan and Berkeley. And don't bring up some certificate thing.

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Jul 6, 2020

Duh huh. Who would have thought that working hard to get into a target school would help you find a better job?

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Jul 6, 2020

Duh Huh. Who would have though that daddy's money would get you into a better school?

Here's the data just in case you don't believe me.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/ups...

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Jul 7, 2020

Daddy's money will probably also get you the job so at this point it doesn't really matter which school you go to.

On a serious note, the data shows the US system is proper fucked up. Speaking from the UK (where fees are capped at PS10K per year and admission decisions are based solely on results and no extracurricular bs) hard work plays a much greater role than daddy's money.

  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
Jul 6, 2020

God if anything you sound insecure af judging from your post history

Also, you aren't a 2nd year associate so change it prospect

Jul 6, 2020

Using the words "systemic oppression" to describe non-target recruiting has to be one of the greatest over-exaggerations I've ever heard. First, Ivy League kids are definitely more privileged than others in the IB recruiting process, but they're deserving of it. I'd guess that at least 60-80% of Ivy league students are neither legacies nor athletes, so it makes sense that they would have a relatively easier chance getting the top jobs since they have already distinguished themselves as the cream of the crop in high school. Second, most opportunities in Finance are still available to students from non-target backgrounds. If you have good grades (3.5 Minimum, preferably 3.7+), relevant experience, and network your tail off, you can get the interviews, and from there school doesn't matter nearly as much. Sure, you probably can't work at some boutiques (think M Klein, Liontree, Raine) or go to a Megafund out of undergrad if you're not at a target school, but as someone from a small non-target, I've seen kids get Middle Market, Bulge Bracket, and even Elite Boutique offers.

Array

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Jul 6, 2020

I agree with you second point. Hard work will get you into the industry and quite frankly this is the way that most of us are going to have to break into the industry. Also we act like that Ivy league kids are jsut handed offers at GS. they still grind and "break in" like the rest of us.

For your first point though, Ivies don't really recruit fairly. Over 10% of students at Ives come from the top 1% of income producing households. As apposed to the bottom 40% of households make up less than 10% of ivy admissions. I think there are a lot of factors that play a part in this. You could argue the 1% has a different mindset the bestow to their children, or they are afforded extra opportunities (private schools) by the wealth they are born into. Would I use the words deserving no. am I going to complain no. The top 1% definitely stacks the deck in their favor, but its not impossible to win, no.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

Lol the number of normal admits (non-legacy/athlete/development) is drastically lower than you think it is

Jul 6, 2020

there are so many out of touch buffoons on this website who spew nonsense like "if you're poor just go to an ivy that gives good financial aid" as if going to harvard or yale, schools with <5% acceptance rates, can just be someone's backup plan

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Jul 6, 2020

Yeah it's not a backup plan just like going into IB isn't a backup plan

  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

And you think IB roles have much higher acceptance rates? These schools and careers arent for the majority of people

Jul 7, 2020

This industry is elitist for the sake of being elitist.

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  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
Jul 6, 2020

You are retarded
Or perhaps that is why you are taking this position

Jul 6, 2020

I know I'm going to get Ms for this, but I went to a public semi target and then transferred to H/W/C super target and most people at the semi target were really fucking stupid

I didn't try in high school(spent most of my time drinking and drugging) and still got good grades at a top high school in my city

If you can't get good enough grades in high school to get into a semi target/target then you're probably stupid or going through a serious crisis. Obviously this is a red flag for banks so they delegate the limited amount of spots available to people who displayed a decent baseline intelligence in high school

Also I don't want to hear the woe is me stories about how an ivy was too expensive. You have to spend money to make money. I'm from a middle class family and I totally understand college is expensive. However when it comes to education you get what you pay for...

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  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Jul 6, 2020

Wtf is C. Is columbia/cornell a "super target"

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 6, 2020

As a student at one of those C schools... there's no super target beginning with C lmao.

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Jul 7, 2020

h / w / c = harvard / wharton / chico state ?

WSO's COO (Chief Operating Orangutan) | My Linkedin

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  • Prospect in HF - Macro
Jul 6, 2020

Found the Cornell kid

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Jul 7, 2020

I think Columbia counts as a super target

Really Cornell places well too but whatever

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Jul 10, 2020

.

Jul 10, 2020

.

Jul 6, 2020

Someone is jealous they couldn't get into a target

Array

Jul 6, 2020

Calling it systemic oppression is a bit much...

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Jul 6, 2020

"Systemic Oppression" - LMAO. Not even sure if this is serious. It's not a great system, but it works. Also don't see how it's terribly different from an SAT or GPA filter, since schools have rankings that pretty much stay within 1 standard deviation every year.

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Jul 7, 2020

@chadtucket

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 7, 2020

More like systemic oppression again Asian and White males LOL

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  • Associate 1 in IB-M&A
Jul 7, 2020

Unrelated but what I hate most is when someone says they didn't go to an Ivy League/Target because it was too expensive. Outside of some rare cases, anyone that can't afford to go to a school will get 100% need-based aid and if they don't qualify, they would be rich enough to afford it. My parents made 150K+ and I got a 90% financial aid grant back at my Ivy League school. It's so obvious when someone didn't actually get in and is just bullshitting because there's no way someone can fact check. Even in scenarios where someone has 6 siblings and is living in NYC, financial aid offices at each school take into account your financial situation and adjust accordingly, and if they don't, you can easily appeal it.

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  • Associate 1 in IB-M&A
Jul 7, 2020

Continuing from above, maybe I'm too old to care about this, but nothing irks me more when every non-target kid who asks me for a networking call (and me obliging because I'm nice and enjoy helping others) tells me they got into Wharton/Cornell/Vanderbilt/whatever but didn't go because of the money. I guarantee you, going to an Ivy League would be cheaper than paying 30-40K a year for a state school. Also, why do people always bring up that unprompted? I don't need to know you "got accepted" into those schools, it won't impress me.

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Jul 7, 2020

Most kids at non-targets didn't get into targets but as someone who turned down a target for a low semi-target and have a few friends who did the same, I respectfully disagree. Most kids going into IB are from upper middle class backgrounds. I got 0 financial aid. I could have desperately asked my parents to spend 300k for my undergrad but it didn't feel right when I had a good school for almost free, they earned that money, and have siblings who could use that money. I also didn't know what IB actually was or that target schools were such a big deal back then, so I thought my school was good enough and didn't justify spending 300k for an upgrade.

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Jul 7, 2020

This isn't 100% true. I know someone who was a Quest ridge Scholar (look it up) and still couldn't afford to go to the incredibly selective schools she was accepted to and had to go to a state school that gave her a full ride instead.

People in this industry and on this forum especially are incredibly sheltered to the realities of the price of going to college.

Array
Jul 7, 2020

NO NO NO we are not all sheltered, many of us grew up in middle class families and grasp tuition costs a lot. Not all elite colleges have as large an endowment as the ivys do so there are some top colleges where the price tag of tuition might still be high. However, it will almost always be cheaper to go to the ivies compared to state school. So if you want to claim you went to state school because it was cheap you're lying. You went there because you didn't get into an even better school. Now some people may get a large scholarship at an ivy and a full ride at another school and choose the other school. But they didn't go because they couldn't afford it they went because they didn't want any student loans. But realistically even 50k in loans isn't very much money and can be paid off quickly assuming you get a decent job out of undergrad.

Caveat there are occasional circumstances where this doesn't apply. There are outliers in everything.

But the main point is ivies are usually the cheapest option, or at the very least they are so heavily discounted that they are affordable.

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  • Associate 1 in PE - Other
Jul 8, 2020

Perhaps that's true. But anecdotally, I went to school with a guy who had athletic scholarships from many Ivies as well as state schools. He chose the state school because the scholarship money was more, succeeded on the field and classroom, and graduated from the business school in 4.5 years.

Where is he now? 2018, NFL draft pick, starting for his respective team on the OL

  • Associate 1 in IB-M&A
Jul 8, 2020

I mean, good for him, but this is a finance forum.

  • Intern in IB - Ind
Jul 7, 2020

lmfao who cares guy just get in however which way you can. You really think I care that I go to a lower ranked college? Still ended up in the same room as the ivy kids. Just get into the stupid bank and be happy you did bro.

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Jul 7, 2020

Jesus Christ, You guys focus way to much on this Non-Target vs Target bullshit granted i went to a target. Its easy if your went to a Non-Target learn to hustle and you'll be fine.

Array

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Jul 8, 2020

The shortest answer would be, "git gud." If getting into a target school is so necessary to landing the role you want, then do it. The obvious problem is that admission is exclusive. This exclusivity signals to employers that graduates can perform to a certain baseline level 95% of the time. If employers are willing to devote hundreds of thousands of dollars to getting top talent, then their biggest concern is avoiding a misallocation of resources. It seems like the signaling problem would explain why employers are acting rationally when they require more from non-targets if and only if going to a target school does equate to better performance, which people seem to think it does (some schools require anyone doing economics to be proficient at calculus and some don't).

The issue isn't that employers are wrong to give extra weight to a diploma that's harder to get. The real issue is that those diplomas are going to a specific subset of the population. Target students are more likely to have parents who can afford to send their children to prep schools, hire SAT/ACT tutors, and when that fails they can pay to get in good with the athletics department. Even if their progeny are complete piles of hot garbage, they're still better connected and positioned relative to their peers. Target parents, or so I'll call them, can tell their kid in the fall of their sophomore year to get insight weeks in the UK or how to leverage their boutique experience from their freshman summer in the US. It seems unjust that these 'golden tickets' aren't distributed equally among those who deserve to be there.

Again, however, going back to the bottom line, if firms are seeking to maximize shareholder value, and not promote some greater gud, then they should still prioritize targets if AND ONLY IF the numbers don't lie. I think, as always, it comes down to a difference of morals, priorities, and world views. There's also something to be said on the utilitarian front that the utility of the non-target kid might be higher because a target kid surrounded by people with good offers may have some entitlement represented by a higher reference point for their potential earnings.

Personally, I don't find it particularly useful to stew about because it doesn't make the path I'm on any easier. I'm running my own race, trying to be better than I was the day before, and it's working so far.

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  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
Jul 8, 2020

Don't let the SJW cancel culture take over target schools. You're not BORN as a non-target, what college you go to is entirely in your control. There are systems in place where it's significantly easier for minorities and people with underprivileged backgrounds to make top colleges. There are many exceptions but for the most case, if you're in a non target that just means you didn't work hard enough in HS, didn't challenge yourself to do more things outside of school, etc.

Is it that hard to understand that IB (which is a prestige driven industry) would primarily hire from top schools? It would be ridiculous for Goldman TMT to recruit at LSU or Bama for the sake of "fairness."

I sincerely hope OP is just trolling

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  • Prospect in IB - Ind
Jul 8, 2020

Fucking right! Meanwhile target students are getting questions like "What is WC?" in interviews - what a joke. One day they will realize that the non-target kids are much hungrier than their counterparts in target schools. This equals to long-term trust and loyalty. Imagine giving a non-target international kid a shot? His/hers loyalty to you is forever. It's almost like picking up a homeless kid off the street and bringing him/her in - he/she is forever grateful.

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  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
Jul 8, 2020

You're delusional if you think that's what target school recruiting is like. If you're actually hungry for success, you would have worked harder in HS and went to a target.

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  • Prospect in IB - Ind
Jul 8, 2020

False. You do realize that many students at the age of attending HS are not materially aware of what target schools are, excluding Harvard type of names? Let alone not being aware what capital markets or investment banking is? When I was in high school, I was fucking around so much. When I got into Cegep (Grade 12 in the US), I fucked around even more. When I got accepted to my non-target University, I pulled straight A+ to A- every year so far while working part-time 30h/week and I have completed two IB/PE internships. You know how? I did that once someone showed me what was out there. A kid with the strongest ambition and work ethic cannot achieve what he/she doesn't even know what's out there to achieve. Keep that in mind bud. Put me in your target school now and i'll perform just as well or better than my counterparts.

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Jul 8, 2020

this is true, non-target kids are asked more technical questions. have heard stories from the horse's mouth of people with family / MD connections bombing their techicals and still getting the role.

Array
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Jul 8, 2020

I think I need some Pepto-Bismol to digest all of this.

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Jul 8, 2020

People who go to targets will defend the recruiting process and say they've worked hard to get to their target, and people who go to non-targets want more respect because they've probably had to network harder and work harder to get their jobs than target kids.

All this thread has shown is that this forum is overwhelmingly filled with non-targets, which is suprising

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Jul 8, 2020

I don't think that it is all that surprising that a non target would use WSO more than a target student.

  1. If banks don't come to you (OCR), and you want to do IB then you will need to find a way to hustle, thus WSO is a big help to non targets. WSO provides email formats, networking tips, and guidance through interviews.
  2. every week there seems to be a few posts from non targets, the forum is full of relatable stories creating more community for non-targets.
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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Jul 8, 2020

As it turns out, "I played golf with my dad's friends from the yacht club" doesn't make a very good Q&A story

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Jul 8, 2020

OOF. I would not use the phrase "systemic oppression", a phrase usually applied to hundreds of years of unjust governmental institutions involved in racism, to describe how some kids at state schools have trouble getting Wall Street jobs... You're coming across as incredibly tone-deaf, and I'm sure every non-target on this forum is face-palming going "why does this dude have to represent us"

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Jul 8, 2020

I actually think it's an apt analogy. I don't think OP is saying that it actually IS systematic oppressed.

Array
  • Consultant in Consulting
Jul 8, 2020

People with low IQs are also systemically oppressed then.

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Jul 8, 2020

why do we all say there is affirmative action and diversity hiring? In my intern classes, I only see like 3-5 "diversity" kids out of 100 or so.

Experience at BBs

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Jul 8, 2020

That's straight cap. Only 3-5 out of 100 interns are black/hispanic/women/LGBT at ur BB?

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Jul 8, 2020

Most of the LGBTQ kids are blond white.

3-10 noticeable black and hispanics

Jul 11, 2020

^^^^lowkey true. The higher you go, the fewer black/ Hispanics you see. My analyst class was severely lacking.

  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
Jul 9, 2020

So the actual diversity is more like 10-25, since
1) Most of the LGBT will be unnoticeable, unless Mike Pence's gay-dar has been publicly released
2) ~Half of Hispanics might appear to be 'white' at first glance

I still have a hard time believing it (especially with women given they make up well over 1/3 of most classes nowadays), but if true your firm doesn't do a good job at all with diversity hiring

Jul 9, 2020

"Yo Tay Kieth, fuck these n*n-targets up"

    • 1
Jul 10, 2020

Get the fuck outta here. Private companies have no mandate to hire everyone who wants to get in to IB. Supply and demand. Did you even go to college?

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 10, 2020

claiming you're systemically oppressed is bullshit. you arent born with it, you can go to grad schools, and anyone can go to a target or semi target with the a good work ethic. success is earned. being surprised that top schools recruit well at top firms is idiotic. banks want people who know how to think and know how the world works. i understand plenty of it is just idiots who's dad is at the bank, but theres a massive amount of people in the industry who worked very hard and earned what they got. as an asian myself, there were plenty of obstacles to getting to a target. excuses are plentiful and easy to make. buckle up. goldman sachs recruits from the too because the top doesnt make idiotic posts like this. we blame our failures on ourselves the same way we take credit for our success. and to describe it as oppression is as stupid as saying blue lives fucking matter. youre a dick. welcome to the world of competition.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 10, 2020

claiming you're systemically oppressed is bullshit. you arent born with it, you can go to grad schools, and anyone can go to a target or semi target with the a good work ethic. success is earned. being surprised that top schools recruit well at top firms is idiotic. banks want people who know how to think and know how the world works. i understand plenty of it is just idiots who's dad is at the bank, but theres a massive amount of people in the industry who worked very hard and earned what they got. as an asian myself, there were plenty of obstacles to getting to a target. excuses are plentiful and easy to make. buckle up. goldman sachs recruits from the too because the top doesnt make idiotic posts like this. we blame our failures on ourselves the same way we take credit for our success. and to describe it as oppression is as stupid as saying blue lives fucking matter. youre a dick. welcome to the world of competition.

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 10, 2020

claiming you're systemically oppressed is bullshit. you arent born with it, you can go to grad schools, and anyone can go to a target or semi target with the a good work ethic. success is earned. being surprised that top schools recruit well at top firms is idiotic. banks want people who know how to think and know how the world works. i understand plenty of it is just idiots who's dad is at the bank, but theres a massive amount of people in the industry who worked very hard and earned what they got. as an asian myself, there were plenty of obstacles to getting to a target. excuses are plentiful and easy to make. buckle up. goldman sachs recruits from the too because the top doesnt make idiotic posts like this. we blame our failures on ourselves the same way we take credit for our success. and to describe it as oppression is as stupid as saying blue lives fucking matter. youre a dick. welcome to the world of competition.

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 10, 2020

claiming you're systemically oppressed is bullshit. you arent born with it, you can go to grad schools, and anyone can go to a target or semi target with the a good work ethic. success is earned. being surprised that top schools recruit well at top firms is idiotic. banks want people who know how to think and know how the world works. i understand plenty of it is just idiots who's dad is at the bank, but theres a massive amount of people in the industry who worked very hard and earned what they got. as an asian myself, there were plenty of obstacles to getting to a target. excuses are plentiful and easy to make. buckle up. goldman sachs recruits from the too because the top doesnt make idiotic posts like this. we blame our failures on ourselves the same way we take credit for our success. and to describe it as oppression is as stupid as saying blue lives fucking matter. youre a dick. welcome to the world of competition.

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 10, 2020

claiming you're systemically oppressed is bullshit. you arent born with it, you can go to grad schools, and anyone can go to a target or semi target with the a good work ethic. success is earned. being surprised that top schools recruit well at top firms is idiotic. banks want people who know how to think and know how the world works. i understand plenty of it is just idiots who's dad is at the bank, but theres a massive amount of people in the industry who worked very hard and earned what they got. as an asian myself, there were plenty of obstacles to getting to a target. excuses are plentiful and easy to make. buckle up. goldman sachs recruits from the too because the top doesnt make idiotic posts like this. we blame our failures on ourselves the same way we take credit for our success. and to describe it as oppression is as stupid as saying blue lives fucking matter. youre a dick. welcome to the world of competition.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 10, 2020

claiming you're systemically oppressed is bullshit. you arent born with it, you can go to grad schools, and anyone can go to a target or semi target with the a good work ethic. success is earned. being surprised that top schools recruit well at top firms is idiotic. banks want people who know how to think and know how the world works. i understand plenty of it is just idiots who's dad is at the bank, but theres a massive amount of people in the industry who worked very hard and earned what they got. as an asian myself, there were plenty of obstacles to getting to a target. excuses are plentiful and easy to make. buckle up. goldman sachs recruits from the too because the top doesnt make idiotic posts like this. we blame our failures on ourselves the same way we take credit for our success. and to describe it as oppression is as stupid as saying blue lives fucking matter. youre a dick. welcome to the world of competition.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 10, 2020

claiming you're systemically oppressed is bullshit. you arent born with it, you can go to grad schools, and anyone can go to a target or semi target with the a good work ethic. success is earned. being surprised that top schools recruit well at top firms is idiotic. banks want people who know how to think and know how the world works. i understand plenty of it is just idiots who's dad is at the bank, but theres a massive amount of people in the industry who worked very hard and earned what they got. as an asian myself, there were plenty of obstacles to getting to a target. excuses are plentiful and easy to make. buckle up. goldman sachs recruits from the too because the top doesnt make idiotic posts like this. we blame our failures on ourselves the same way we take credit for our success. and to describe it as oppression is as stupid as saying blue lives fucking matter. youre a dick. welcome to the world of competition.

Jul 10, 2020

I transfered from a non target school to a target school for this very reason. The main problem that I realized at my non target school was that the teachers and administrators had no interest in promoting investment banking and getting students into the industry. Their main goal was bumping out Fintech and CFA kids. Additionally the kids that did attempt to go IB were not the best representation of the school and it made it very difficult for anyone like me to break in. Transfering to a target school I could tell the difficulty and intensity of the schoolwork was dramatically harder than my non target school. I can completely understand why this bias exists, but the blame partially lies on the non target schools for not helping their students gain the knowledge and connections needed to get into IB.

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Jul 10, 2020

Oppression:
"prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority"

Not getting the same opportunities does not equal oppression.

Jul 10, 2020

You wanna know the big secret? It's a services business that sells trust in their employees to their clients.

Investment bankers are salesmen that know their industries well, but really what they offer is their network. When it comes to things like valuation and the technical side of things, there is no right or wrong answer given the hypothetical nature inherent in these processes.

On the public side with portfolio managers and other buy-side entities it's even worse. The efficient market hypothesis is held near and dear for a reason, it's true. Other than Steve Cohen is dodged the biggest insider trading suite ever, these guys aren't beating the market. It's all about the name associated with them.

This is why target kids get preferential treatment. My team of analysts include 3 Harvard grads and my vp has an MBA from Wharton, sounds much better than "Dave went to Southern Miss". Dave could be way better than the dude with the Wharton MBA, but those just looking at the cover won't recognize that. This is why the advice, "get the CFA" is always going to be practical and yield results. Instead, they could say "3 of my analysts went to Harvard and one holds the CFA charter".

Anecdotally, the comments about safer odds with recruiting are also correct. If you show up to Stanford, you'll at least find a few high potential candidates, but if you show up to Salisbury State, you might come up dry.

That being said, I've met some target school early professionals who make absolute fools of themselves because they're so entitled and elitist. I saw one kid on r/financialcareers have a meltdown because some kid from an unranked state school got better reviews than he did. I also know one guy who tried to audit my model and gave me an incorrect formula for trailing twelve month figures. He also gave me a wrong formula for WACC and for CAPM. I shit you not, this kid has a masters from a top tier school with a 3.8 GPA, and I was too embarrassed for him to tell him he was wrong.

I do think it's a major problem in the industry, but all you can do is try to overcome the odds and change things when you're in.

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Jul 19, 2020
EBITDA-Positive:

You wanna know the big secret? It's a services business that sells trust in their employees to their clients.

Investment bankers are salesmen that know their industries well, but really what they offer is their network. When it comes to things like valuation and the technical side of things, there is no right or wrong answer given the hypothetical nature inherent in these processes.

On the public side with portfolio managers and other buy-side entities it's even worse. The efficient market hypothesis is held near and dear for a reason, it's true. Other than Steve Cohen is dodged the biggest insider trading suite ever, these guys aren't beating the market. It's all about the name associated with them.

This is why target kids get preferential treatment. My team of analysts include 3 Harvard grads and my vp has an MBA from Wharton, sounds much better than "Dave went to Southern Miss". Dave could be way better than the dude with the Wharton MBA, but those just looking at the cover won't recognize that. This is why the advice, "get the CFA" is always going to be practical and yield results. Instead, they could say "3 of my analysts went to Harvard and one holds the CFA charter".

Anecdotally, the comments about safer odds with recruiting are also correct. If you show up to Stanford, you'll at least find a few high potential candidates, but if you show up to Salisbury State, you might come up dry.

That being said, I've met some target school early professionals who make absolute fools of themselves because they're so entitled and elitist. I saw one kid on r/financialcareers have a meltdown because some kid from an unranked state school got better reviews than he did. I also know one guy who tried to audit my model and gave me an incorrect formula for trailing twelve month figures. He also gave me a wrong formula for WACC and for CAPM. I shit you not, this kid has a masters from a top tier school with a 3.8 GPA, and I was too embarrassed for him to tell him he was wrong.

I do think it's a major problem in the industry, but all you can do is try to overcome the odds and change things when you're in.

But... that has been changing. We're seeing some momentum towards direct listings.

My hunch has always been that there will be some investment bank or PE shop in 15-20 years that runs a lot like Palantir, and kicks butt and takes names. But as a QR in the < 1 month equity holding period space, I just don't know enough about the 10 year space to make that call.

What I am seeing where I sit is stats and tech slowly inching its way down the holding period and general management chain. Whether it will ever get to the years scale is another question. In order to get 20 iid samples in the daily space, you need a month worth of data (business days). In order to do the same quarterly, you need five years. In order to build a model of yearly performance/returns, you need two decades of data. And if you start trying to build a model with a three year projection based on some regression... how do you measure search engine traffic and ad sales back in 1960?

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Jul 10, 2020

To be honest, as a non-target state schooler myself I noticed that it's a little bit of both sides. A lot of non-target kids aren't lazy at all, they actually work just as hard as the target kids (I say this because I spent a fair amount of time working with target kids as well) however their lack exposure and opportunity hamstrings their development and they end up settling for sub-par jobs. However on the flip side, and this is true of all universities, there are a fair amount of loafers. Some kids are there because they never tried hard enough and see no reason to apply any effort. I had to fight tooth and nail to get into a BB IB role from my school, but I also had to ditch the majority of my schools "professional development" events and avoid drinking the bs my university was selling about the "possible" jobs I could get. However my friends at Ross are trying semester after semester to break into just one of the clubs on campus and avoiding severe depression. TL:DR both sides have their own issues. It's hard to stand out at a target and it's hard to get out of a non target, but people who are bitching about not getting a job from a non target should be on LinkedIn, networking their way out and not here.

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Jul 11, 2020

Fuck you. I grinded hard in school to get into a good program at a target (and no my parents aren't rich). The only resource that steered me to IB was my own research that I conducted before choosing what major to apply for.

This is capitalism. I worked smart, got into a target, got in an IB role and now I am still grinding just like everyone else in the industry.

If you want to promote a false sense of equality among schools, this isn't the industry for you.

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Jul 19, 2020
DRFT65:

Fuck you. I grinded hard in school to get into a good program at a target (and no my parents aren't rich). The only resource that steered me to IB was my own research that I conducted before choosing what major to apply for.

This is capitalism. I worked smart, got into a target, got in an IB role and now I am still grinding just like everyone else in the industry.

If you want to promote a false sense of equality among schools, this isn't the industry for you.

Okay, but the state school kids at your bank are outgrinding you now. We're held to a higher standard, which quite frankly, is a compliment to us. It's why-- at least in S&T and hedge funds, you see so many state school kids move over to the buyside so much more easily.

Again, I think the kids from state schools who make it into banking-- or who make it into trading-- are generally happier, better adjusted, and have better lives and careers over the long run. We often have orthogonal perspectives on things. We force people to think about things.

You can have your own opinion of this; that's fine. But from what I've seen, while it's harder to break into the front office at JP Morgan from a state school, the kids who do often wind up in better shape 10 years out than the kids who break in from Wharton.

Finally, guys like you sound a bit angry. Most of us state schoolers come off as happy. We're happy to be doing this. We're happy to be here. Positive attitudes tend to attract more positivity. It's just one of the rules of business.

You're right. This IS capitalism. And the cream rises to the top. But what you haven't realized yet is that at 22; at 25, you're not cream yet. You're not cream a decade later, either. We're all working on it.

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Jul 19, 2020

I was talking about this with someone - people from nontarget schools seem to actually care about the work of banking and enjoy it more than people from target schools who did it just bc it was the thing to do

Array
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  • Intern in HF - Other
Jul 11, 2020

I don't even go to a target school, but what incentive do investment banks have to recruit from non-target schools? I can't really think of any. Now, I go to a top LAC that has similar SAT/ACT scores to Ivy's, and it's extremely difficult to get into IB. It's frustrating, but how can you blame a firm for recruiting mostly from Harvard instead of my LAC? Even though on average kids are probably pretty close in IQ/smarts, the Harvard kids have a track record at the firm and the only thing the firm cares about is making a profit. 0 incentive to recruit from a small LAC when there are only a few at alums at the firm.

Jul 19, 2020
Comment
    • 4
  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Jul 19, 2020
  • Associate 1 in IB-M&A
Jul 19, 2020
  • Prospect in IB - Ind
Jul 19, 2020
  • Prospect in RE - Other
Jul 21, 2020
Jul 27, 2020
Jul 27, 2020