The worth of an Ivy League (Penn in particular) over other schools

Calpheon's picture
Rank: Monkey | 34

As a high school senior, I was wondering about the difference was between an undergraduate education at Penn (Economics in CAS, not Wharton), and the McIntire School of Commerce at UVA. Would the prestiege from Penn be pivotal in finding jobs / interns during and after my stay at the college? I've been thinking about the connections I would form at each school, the GPA I would recieve at each respective college (likely higher in UVA due to it being less competitive), and the career opportunities each university could lead to (in Wall Street).

Since I live in VA, UVA would cost 35k per year as opposed to Penn's 70k. I don't want to put the extra burden on my parents if unnecessary, but if going to Penn would truly open more doors and new opportunities - if its really worth it - then I would be happy to go there.

Thanks for the help in advance!

Comments (118)

Sep 29, 2017

I can't talk to non wharton penn (although I assume if you kill it you'll have similar range of OCR for IB/Consulting as the wharton guys), but UVA's business school has been rising in prominence the last few years-

With regards to UVA, it is very competitive when it comes to banking (if you're not in one of the student investment funds, placement might be rough)

In addition, you need to apply to be in the McIntire school after your first 2 years- so having as close to a perfect gpa your first 2 years is important.

However, if you're willing to grind i've seen a huge range at UVA from Moelis to GS to Bain to McKinsey.

if you want to succeed as bad as you want to breathe, then you'll be successful

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Sep 29, 2017

Thanks for the input!

Im fairly certain that I'll be able to make McIntire - if I go to UVA and dont, shit lol.

If I head to UVA, I've been thinking that I would be able to shine there, wheras in oenn, I would be in the middle of the pack. As in, a 3.9-4.0(?) at UVA in comparison to a 3.6-3.7(?).

What exactly do you mean in that I may have trouble if Im not in a student investment fund? Based on my quick search just now, it seems like just another student run organization at these schools.

Thanks for the help!

Oct 2, 2017
mike ross:

I can't talk to non wharton penn (although I assume if you kill it you'll have similar range of OCR for IB/Consulting as the wharton guys), but UVA's business school has been rising in prominence the last few years-

With regards to UVA, it is very competitive when it comes to banking (if you're not in one of the student investment funds, placement might be rough)

In addition, you need to apply to be in the McIntire school after your first 2 years- so having as close to a perfect gpa your first 2 years is important.

However, if you're willing to grind i've seen a huge range at UVA from Moelis to GS to Bain to McKinsey.

Totally agreeing with this

Sep 29, 2017

I don't personally think that Penn is worth $140K more than UVA from an "outcomes" perspective; UVA is reputable enough and the McIntire school highly regarded enough that you won't miss out on much. If we were talking about Wharton it might be different. Have you gotten all of your aid info yet? Grants? Scholarships? I find it insane that anyone could pay 70K per year for undergrad, or even 35K, for that matter. But I graduated 10 years ago.

Sep 29, 2017

Yeah - our family makes enough so that we arent eligible for financial aid, but not enough for comfort. Also, Penn doesnt have any merit scholarships...

Thanks for the input! Do you think Wharton would be worth it then?

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Sep 29, 2017

Wharton might be worth it, but only if you're super set on finance and are able to get a top buyside job. I would imagine UVA is still a better choice.

Sep 29, 2017

There are only 5 or 6 "brands" for which I'd overpay just because of the added value I'd get from the networks and penetration into harder to reach fields.

If i'm dead set on a career in finance, Wharton is one of them. Even then that price tag takes me past my comfort level, but I'd probably still go for it knowing that the worst outcome would still be pretty good for the most part (barring complete unemployment).

But as it stands, hang on to your $140K. UVA grads aren't exactly struggling:

https://www.commerce.virginia.edu/sites/default/fi...

Oct 2, 2017

As someone who went to Penn non-Wharton, you should definitely take UVA and the $$. Penn non-Wharton has great access to recruiters (essentially all job postings are open to non-Wharton students) but it's probably not markedly different than UVA McIntyre in the terms of which banks come to campus. At Penn you'll also be competing with the Wharton students, which means you have to really stand out in CAS. If it were $70k for both, I'd say take Penn, but the $35k price difference makes it an easy choice.

Oct 2, 2017
Masterz57:

As someone who went to Penn non-Wharton, you should definitely take UVA and the $$. Penn non-Wharton has great access to recruiters (essentially all job postings are open to non-Wharton students) but it's probably not markedly different than UVA McIntyre in the terms of which banks come to campus. At Penn you'll also be competing with the Wharton students, which means you have to really stand out in CAS. If it were $70k for both, I'd say take Penn, but the $35k price difference makes it an easy choice.

Are people not allowed to get into Wharton after starting at Penn?

It looks like if he started at UVA, he could still try to transfer to Wharton after 1 year:

http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/apply/transfer-adm...

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Oct 3, 2017

They are, but it is very, very hard.

Yes, he could also transfer from UVA.

Oct 2, 2017

I'll give a different perspective. I was in your exact same shoes a year and a half ago -- choosing between Penn CAS and UVA (prob McIntire) as a VA resident. I chose Penn and I'm not regretting it one bit. There have been infinitely better resources available to me here from a career standpoint: several dinners with MBB/JPM/GS/MS/tech companies, coffee chats for different companies every week, panels every week, etc. not just the once-a-year info sessions. Also, the student-run clubs and orgs are much better. Obviously, more Penn/Wharton students go into IB/consulting, making networking much easier. Our student groups also have case prep, modeling practice, resume reviews, and those sorts of things every week. On top of that, Penn is a comfortable target for every company, and with some strong networking + grades, every single company is a possibility. As a liberal arts major, I've gotten BB superdays and MBB first rounds (OCR is still kinda early).

And then obviously, you can go over the non-professional aspects yourself -- social scene, location, money, fit, etc. When I considered schools, Penn was the clear winner. Feel free to PM me. Also, screenshot this because I'm likely deleting in the near future.

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Oct 2, 2017
Calpheon:

As a high school senior, I was wondering about the difference was between an undergraduate education at Penn (Economics in CAS, not Wharton), and the McIntire School of Commerce at UVA. Would the prestiege from Penn be pivotal in finding jobs / interns during and after my stay at the college? I've been thinking about the connections I would form at each school, the GPA I would recieve at each respective college (likely higher in UVA due to it being less competitive), and the career opportunities each university could lead to (in Wall Street).

Since I live in VA, UVA would cost 35k per year as opposed to Penn's 70k. I don't want to put the extra burden on my parents if unnecessary, but if going to Penn would truly open more doors and new opportunities - if its really worth it - then I would be happy to go there.

Thanks for the help in advance!

In your position I would choose UVA McIntire all day long. In part because I am competitive and would want to be working with the best at my school, which won't be your case at Penn (I have no idea if transferring into Wharton is possible).

UVA is absolutely a target/great brand, and it's a way better deal.

If you got into Wharton, I'd say take that, but I'd go to McIntire over non-Wharton Penn.

Oct 2, 2017

I think the problem with seductive brand names is that students naturally assume that they will make them successful. Problem is, it's gonna take years to get successful. So the tuition really bites you in the bum, depleting your lifestyle for first 3-4 years on the job (crummy apartments, really tight finances, etc.). Not the glamour you envision after top school. So tuition consideration should be super important, just as important as job exit opps, etc.

Personally not a Whartonite myself, but seen analysts pass through my division feeling sunk by Ivy debt, calling it a rip-off despite landing IB placements at BBs. I know others that weren't even as fortunate despite carrying the brand name. Bottom line, paying a heavy price tag for a famous name doesn't guarantee a top job (or any job in some cases).

UVA is definitely solid choice. Worked with a several directors from UVA (MBAs) most of whom were heavy recruiters for of the school.

If all else fails, the lower tuition will also give you a lot more breathing room in terms of waiting out for a better gig rather than taking sub-par jobs just so not to get tanked by the tuition payment. Trust me, been there, done that.

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Oct 2, 2017

I SB'd. 10 years ago I would have been all for paying more for the better school, but the state of tuition these days for UNDERGRAD has gotten ridiculous. Under no circumstances should you ever consider dropping a mortgage on an undergrad education.

There's no way to justify paying $150K MORE for a slightly more reputable school when it will constrain you in the ways you just described-or worse (recession, paying for grad school down the line, family planning, etc.)

Oct 3, 2017
TheGrind:

I SB'd. 10 years ago I would have been all for paying more for the better school, but the state of tuition these days for UNDERGRAD has gotten ridiculous.

Are you saying it has increased much faster than inflation?

US education has always been expensive.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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Oct 3, 2017
catthegreat:

I think the problem with seductive brand names is that students naturally assume that they will make them successful. Problem is, it's gonna take years to get successful. So the tuition really bites you in the bum, depleting your lifestyle for first 3-4 years on the job (crummy apartments, really tight finances, etc.).

Hit the nail on the head. Great post.

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Oct 2, 2017

Well, they are both good programs, so you can't really make a bad decision here.

I would pick Penn.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Oct 2, 2017

Why would you want to go some place where you're already pretty sure you'll be near the best. Being challenged is the best way to grow and push yourself to achieve more

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Oct 4, 2017

dudes, OP hasn't even gotten into either yet...

definitely get accepted before thinking like this. getting yourself in this kind of mindset isn't gonna look good if it doesn't work out (~95% people get turned down). I was a senior a few years ago.

also a 3.9-4.0 at any top 30 school is very ambitious.

if money is a serious concern, don't ED penn. if you think you can work it out, ED the school.

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Oct 5, 2017
Flurite:

dudes, OP hasn't even gotten into either yet...

oh, for some reason I thought he got into these schools already

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Best Response
Oct 4, 2017

The problem with threads like this is that people assume that life will continue as they expect - there won't be issues with grades, extracurriculars, recruiting. Given the amount of money at risk here, and the burden that this will have, I would carefully examine bad and worst case scenarios before committing to either option.

I've listed some questions below that I would consider in your shoes - some might sound far-fetched or petty, but these have all impacted the post-graduation outcomes of people I know.

What if your family's main breadwinner is killed in a freak accident?
What if you decide that you want to pursue an academic career, rather than a life on Wall Street?
What if you get diagnosed with cancer? Or schizophrenia?
What if you end up in a course you thought you'd ace, and end up with a C-?
What if you go to Penn and you're average? What if you go to UVA and you're average? Or below average?
What happens if you want to change majors, but have to do some summer courses instead of a sophomore internship?
What if you grow to hate finance and want a career in journalism or marketing?
What happens if you unknowingly take on too many classes and extra-curriculars at once?
What happens when your friends on campus, who have become a family to you, fall apart or cause drama?
What happens if you have a terrible breakup? Or a terrible relationship?
What happens if you have to take on more hours at work because you dropped your phone and can't afford a new one?
What happens if you have great grades and extracurriculars, but somehow you only get two first round interviews for IB, and you don't click with any of those interviewers?

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Oct 13, 2017

Yes, yes, and yes! It's so easy to have pie in sky expectations at the start of any major life experience. Especially if you're still young and haven't experienced a lot of adversity. Those things can def throw you off course, and it's even tougher if you're emotionally fragile. As an accounting and finance grad who's faced some of those challenges you listed, this hits home for me. Spot on post!

Oct 4, 2017

I graduated from Penn. Couple of years out of school now and here are my thoughts:

  1. You may not even want to do finance 4 years from now. The Penn brand will open great opportunities in other fields.
  2. Social network. Seriously, Penn has an insane alumni base/network. You will be classmates and friends with the children of some of the richest families on the earth. You may fall in love with a girl who's father presents you with an opportunity to run his multibillion dollar business or manage his investment portfolio. Or you might partner with a wealthy friend from your polisci class to start a business. It's more common than you think.

Think beyond the narrow path thats emphasized on this forum. The penn brand goes a long way. It definitely changed my life. You live once. Why turn down a lifetime opportunity? Think like an investor and take a risk.

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Oct 4, 2017

+1. This is good advice

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Oct 14, 2017

Good post. But UVA is no slouch. Lots of filthy rich old money kids target UVA for the preppy/frat/srat scenes.

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Oct 4, 2017

Some of the advice given here is absolutely ludicrous. My story and background is only one anecdotal account, but I came from very humble beginnings as an eastern European immigrant who arrived here with immigrant parents. My parents knew I would be privy to the best opportunities in the world simply by being in this country. Obtaining the best education was always the uncompromisable end-goal. This meant getting into the best school possible regardless of debt. I attended a very good school that opened doors for me which, having gone elsewhere, would have simply remained shut, irrespective of how much networking I would do or how hard I would try to pry them open. I ended up breaking into high-finance from a very under-represented segment of the population, as I am not your standard blue-blooded prep school "wasp".

The unfortunate and sad truth of the matter is, American culture and American institutions are built on brand. Whether we're talking about professional careers, academic institutions, or consumerist corporations, brand is synonymous with credibility and desirability. If you desire a very supply-constricted (IB, PE) or competitive professional career with significant barriers to entry (law, medicine), in this country you will be severely handicapping your probability for success by compromising on brand and assuming you can compensate in other categories. Some of these points made here are so juvenile - if you live life in a vacuum, the brand of your school will never get you a job in-and-of itself. That's not how life works. But if you have the fortitude, perseverance and determination to succeed, and you believe in yourself, going to the very best school you can should not ever even be a question.

P.S. The above only addresses the tangible, "door-opening" effects of going to a top school. The intangibles are priceless, such as developing as an individual and being shaped by an outstanding peer group that will challenge you. Pushing your academic comfort level and academic boundaries. Being challenged to keep pace with peers inside and outside of the classroom, and exploring new ideas among a diverse student body. These may seem like abstract and laughable elements to you now, but all change is steady in course. You will graduate one day, after four lightening-quick years, and realize the monumental impact your experiences have had on you as an individual.

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Oct 4, 2017

He's not deciding between Penn and the University of Phoenix, for Pete's sake.

Oct 4, 2017

To be clear, I think there is meaningful difference between UVA and any ivy league institution. This is what I was trying to articulate in my discussion on branding above.

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Oct 5, 2017
TheGrind:

He's not deciding between Penn and the University of Phoenix, for Pete's sake.

haha yeah seriously - that would be a way easier decision to make ... U of Phoenix all the way!

I mean wearing the red socks will get you in almost any door.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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Oct 5, 2017
TheGrind:

He's not deciding between Penn and the University of Phoenix, for Pete's sake.

True. He's "deciding" between an ivy league school and a state school

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Oct 5, 2017

Absolutely 100% agreed.

Oct 6, 2017

+1 SB fellow Slav, this has been my experience too with my parents. They've managed to do pretty well and end up having a much better life here than back in the old country, and I'm trying to do something like that for myself too. From what I've seen, this is an accurate description of American higher education and its position in the workforce.

Oct 29, 2017

SB, this post is spot on

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Oct 5, 2017

Hey, chiming in with my random 2 cents as a H/Y/P kid.

I faced a relatively similar situation as you (100% full ride to UNC Chapel Hill (out of state), 75% full ride to William & Mary (out of state), as well as another small but well known liberal art school). It's tough, I completely commiserate with how you feel. I chose H/Y/P because I didn't want to look back with any "what if" sentiment, and I don't regret it. In the moment $140K or whatnot may feel like a lot, but if you're going into banking and higher finance, the degree really pays for itself.

Best of luck!

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Oct 5, 2017

OP are you guaranteed admission into the biz school @ UVA? to my knowledge you apply as a soph for junior entry and entry not guaranteed. also... if we're talking uPenn (not penn state) v UVA i go with uPenn all day. and yes, as shallow as it may seem the ivy leauge name carries prestige.

Oct 13, 2017

From my understanding, UVA is basically a public IVY. Unless you think Wharton will 2x your salary over the course of your life, choose UVA. I chose a T-20 Finance UG > T5 because one was free and one was 50k/year. Plus, if you have the creds to get into Wharton, but go to UVA instead, you likely have the ability to be a top of the class performer at UVA.

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Oct 13, 2017

I have degrees from both schools. Student bodies are meaningfully different. Pick the environment that fits you best.

Oct 13, 2017

I went to an ivy, but I got close to a full-ride because of of the generous financial aid (I grew up poor). IF I didn't get financial aid, there would be no way in hell I would be paying for an Ivy, and I would've just went to my flagship state school. Reason is because I wouldn't feel confident having that much debt knowing my post-grad job would be the only thing that could pay that off. What if the economy went into a recession and I was $150k in debt as a poor first-generation student after college? That scenario is suicidal to me.

You need to assess your situation. You only know yourself and need to decide accordingly

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Oct 14, 2017

Penn is a great school and will provide ample opportunity, as others have said you could transfer into Wharton from Penn. However, you better know damn sure you want to do finance if you go that route. You will need the ROI that finance provides coming out of UG in order to overcome that variance. UVA has plenty of people on the street. They even place a couple of people directly into mid market buyside firms out of UG every year, I would tip the advantage to UVA mainly because it gives you more options going out of UG due to debt loads.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Oct 14, 2017

Penn all the way. Companies care about name. UVA is ok but Penn is the next level up. One of the largest differences between Penn and UVA is the number of opportunities offered through on campus recruiting. Of course, just by going to Penn doesn't guarantee you'll snag a great job, but at least you won't have to win case competitions or network 24/7 to win interviews (as is the case with most public schools since there are so many students). There are also more spots for Penn students than UVA kids since Penn tends to have more alums in banking and consulting. In my intern class of ~120 ppl at a top BB (investment banking), there were 10 UPenn kids and 1 UVA kid. You also have more opportunities to build up your resume during underclassmen years since it tends to be easier to land internships with the Penn name rather than UVA. If you want to go into consulting, MBB usually only recruits from the top Ivys or other top private institutions like Stanford, MIT, etc. My friend who worked at ones of the MBBs this summer said her office had 6 Harvard, 4 Princeton, 1 Yale, and 2 Penn. Of course this again varies by office and year, but just to add some perspective. And please don't take this the wrong way - I'm sure there are also incredibly smart and successful people at UVA who land great IB and consulting roles. It might just be harder given the fewer # of spots and greater amount of students.

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Oct 14, 2017

a lot of people on this thread are implying that wharton is the only school with brand name. it certainly is the best undergraduate finance program, but mcintire is considered a solid target by pretty much all sources... it's not like brand name vs. no brand name here. regardless, getting a job in high finance shouldn't be seen as easy regardless of where you go.

this is kind of over exaggerated. each mcintire class has about 345 students and each class has at most 70% of students majoring in finance. Out of those 240 finance students, each class sends ~45 to BB/EB (only considered Evercore/PJT/Moelis/Lazard/Greenhill) and about ~40 to other MM/less elite boutiques. This figure also doesn't include the fact that a lot of students go to consulting (~15 MBB each year and a lot to Oliver Wyman/Booz/Accenture/Big4 etc).

of course this only represents respondents to the survey as well and not every finance major is interested in banking/consulting

data from: https://www.commerce.virginia.edu/sites/default/fi...

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Oct 14, 2017

Have to agree here. Look, it'll be difficult wherever you go. Penn in some ways can make it harder to score big - having dealt with some on campus recruiting from the hiring side, it seems that there is just a multitude of really high qualified kids interested in management and finance (more so than most ivies). Then again at UVA you may have to network more, and you will probably have a little chip on your shoulder for a very long time (apologies, don't mean to offend anyone).

I'd suggest HYPS, but even then there are some extreme kids that you STILL need to top. Bottom line, no choice is easy. Do what suits you.

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Oct 17, 2017

you guys know there is some research out there which shows people who had the opportunity to go to Ivy league schools and chose to attend non-ivy league universities (even those who were rejected), did JUST as well as those who did.

the things that made you who you are today won't go away because you are not going to Harvard and what not.
@mbamfinquestions post is excellent. OP seem to me like a teenager eager to go to college, but shit happens and all the plans you had for yourself are through the windows.
OP will probably go to upenn, OP is a bit pretentious, potential a** hole, would fit at an Ivy.

Make your parents life easier and go to UVA, don't be a burden for your family, you will do very well in this life.

Oct 28, 2017

Penn pros:
Penn will open more doors for recruiting and professional opportunities. Don't think that employers, especially in business, perceive UVa and Penn or other ivies as equivalents, they dont. Penn is probably the most targeted ivy after Harvard. Eve as a CAS student you have access to all the resources, classes and clubs that wharton kids have so you can really bolster your resume.
Also at Penn you will get a higher-quality and more well-rounded education if that matters to you.

UVa pros:
UVa is no Penn but you will have good opportunities at UVA too provided you work hard. Many Uva grads land top jobs. If the extra cost of Penn is too much for your family then it is probably worth choosing UVA.

Oct 29, 2017

Penn brand has been massively hurt by Sandusky scandal.

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Oct 29, 2017

Thats Penn State, not Penn

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Oct 29, 2017
Isaiah_53_5:

Thats Penn State, not Penn

JokeHead

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Oct 29, 2017
Isaiah_53_5:

Thats Penn State, not Penn

It is ok, the average person is not sophisticated enough to know the distinction between the two so I guess that gives him a pass ;)

Oct 29, 2017

Rather old and tired joke i think.

Oct 29, 2017

I myself go to a state school, and was fortunate enough to secure a BB SA position in IB for the upcoming summer, so I don't have a huge amount of perspective on this, but I will share with you what my experiences have been.
1. Not completely sure how the alumni base is/what recruiting is like at UVA, but at my state school, BB recruiting is virtually nonexistent. Penn has a huge alumni base and you will get tons of exposure to all sorts of finance positions.
2. An intangible quality that you may want to consider is the atmosphere of the schools. I know this is probably not top priority, but after actually coming to school, it is important. If you are at all interested in the party scene/social life, every state school I have been to is amazing. There is truly nothing like tailgate season at a huge university.
3. You've probably heard it before, but its more about the candidate them self rather than where they come from. If you are passionate about finance and work hard, you'll be alright. Penn might get you in the door quicker, but the rest is up to the candidate.
4. I myself got wait listed at Penn, and was in a similar situation as yourself. If I had gotten into Penn regular decision would I have gone? Fuck yeah. Penn is one of the best business schools in the country, and if you go there you'll already have a leg up over kids like myself who go to state schools.
Best of luck.

Oct 29, 2017

he hasn't gotten into either

Oct 29, 2017

Well, since he has a twin sister, FAO will definately take into consideration that there will be 2 children in college. He'll probably get more FA than $10,000 at the top schools. If he's lucky, it'll be more like $20-30K X 4 yrs X 2 kids. So, he probably should apply to the top schools just to see how much they'll offer him, then weigh whether or not to go to UMD.

  •  Oct 29, 2017

that you listed that have undergrad business (with the exception of Wharton and NYU) require that you apply after your soph yr... so it might not be worth it if he's not confident and driven enough to get in

it is definitely worth it because you're fighting a pretty tough battle from UMD. schools that are more reputable in the south like Duke, Emory, UNC-Chap Hill might be even better choices if staying close to home is important...

  •  Oct 29, 2017

It sounds like he is loosely thinking about "business" rather than totally gung ho about investment banking and willing to do whatever it takes.

If he's not totally set on I-banking, he should definitely consider a full scholarship at Maryland over a likely $100K in debt from the others.

Find the list of what employers recruit at Maryland - their career center website would probably have it - it may well include regional investment banks, the big-5 consulting firms, commercial banks, and respected Fortune 500 and tech companies.

If he does really well in Maryland and goes to one of those employers, and gets a good gmat score, he can go to one of the best business schools, and then go anywhere from there.

And it's not like everyone at NYU or Cornell or Michigan automatically gets into Goldman or McKinsey.

OTOH, he has to understand that at Maryland he will need to really stand out, and will need to really work hard both in his job search and classes. At an elite college he could be in the middle of the class and still do fine.

Oct 29, 2017

I don't think he's a stand out kid but he'll end up in the upper 25% everywhere he goes.

UMD is extremely weak when it comes to top Consulting or I-banking. It only stands well with the government and a few local companies - i.e. Black and Decker, Lockheed Martin, IBM, Accenture, Booz Allen...

My friend (who did UMich-Ross for undergrad) posted where everbody headed after college in her business school... the placements were astonishing. Looks like if you fall into the upper half of the Michigan Business School you would be set for a top 10 Consulting or top 15 I-banking job. But again she had to work her ass off again in college to get into the business school.

I also like the good point on the "twin sister" comment. How I think about it, I think my cousins should get some more financial aid for the double burden they caused my aunt and uncle.

Oct 29, 2017

"UVA-Darden"

That's the grad school...University of Virginia's Darden Graduate School of Business Administration.

University of Virginia-McIntire School of Commerce is the undergraduate division.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

Oct 29, 2017

It makes it easier to get a job in IB, but I did it out of a state school. You just have to be much more proactive.

Oct 29, 2017

"I did it out of a state school. You just have to be much more proactive."

Fuck that, man. What if the market turns sour and they start hiring even fewer analysts than they do now? You really want to risk that? It'll take years to get into and graduate from a top MBA program, and by then your friends will already be in PE and you won't be too excited about 100-hr weeks.

Not worth it.

Oct 29, 2017

"another cousin did 2 years at a top 10 bank and ended up in PE with $300k + bonus" So the $300K was base. Sounds pretty good. By the way, your cousin is a liar...

Oct 29, 2017

2210 can get rejected at places like Harvard and Yale, but is a walk-on at Wharton. Remember: it's an undergraduate business school, not an academic college.

It's much easier to get a job in IB from an Ivy than from a state school. First of all, HR people at top banks respond to the cachet. Second, getting an analyst job is about preparation more than anything else-- you don't need superb intelligence or social skills, but you need to know the process and how to make it work for you-- and Ivy kids know how to prepare; they start learning from each other early on.

If he's not set on IB, it's probably better for him to go to the state school. Outside of IB, it won't really limit his options very much, and if he wants IB so bad, he can go to business school and move in as an associate.

Oct 29, 2017

A 2210 is not a walk on at Wharton...nobody is a "walk on" at Wharton

Oct 29, 2017

unless your last name is trump

Oct 29, 2017

There's been a ton already posted on this, check out this page and the relevant discussions included https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/faq/what-are-a-tar...
Basically the difference in recruitment comes from a lack of alumni representation and need to network more heavily

Oct 29, 2017

Not all Ivy League schools are equal, and it depends on the region. For Wall Street firms, the top 15 or 20 schools, in USNews, shouldn't be too bad for recruitment.

Oct 29, 2017

Eh, i'm sure others will pick apart this argument easily so I'm not going to make an effort. Clearly, this guy has no idea how recruiting is done at these banks (even though he has done 'research').

To be frank, the biggest reason why certain schools are considered 'second tier' or aren't looked at, is because they don't have a strong alum presence at that particular bank. That's pretty much it. Even in the recent years, when alums have dwindled, certain banks have dropped schools from its recruiting roster.

Oct 29, 2017
HerSerendipity:

Eh, i'm sure others will pick apart this argument easily so I'm not going to make an effort. Clearly, this guy has no idea how recruiting is done at these banks (even though he has done 'research').

To be frank, the biggest reason why certain schools are considered 'second tier' or aren't looked at, is because they don't have a strong alum presence at that particular bank. That's pretty much it. Even in the recent years, when alums have dwindled, certain banks have dropped schools from its recruiting roster.

Agree with this and with happy. Ridiculous premise posed by the author. Firms typically focus their efforts where they know they have found reliable talent because there is less risk in taking someone from a program with a fairly proven track record. If there is a strong alumni presence at a given firm they are going to fight to get kids from their school to get a shot at their firm. As numbers dwindle or if numbers were never strong, firms will drop or choose not to give a school target status. All that being said, everyone knows you can break in from anywhere if you are persistent and sharp enough. Others can have fun with bashing the author.

Oct 29, 2017

I agree with HerSerendipity, this is just too easy to argue against for it to be worth my (or anyone else's) time.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

Oct 29, 2017

Agreed all the way. I did my undergrad at a non-target public school. A good friend of mine who co-founded our school's investment club is now doing front-office S&T at Goldman in NY. She was the biggest brown-noser I ever knew (I say this endearingly), and her outcome was not typical for people at my school. But if she could do it, I can't imagine it being very difficult coming from MIT or Brown (assuming you have the drive and perseverence).

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

Oct 29, 2017

Having attended one of these schools, the elitism was unbearable for me. It doesn't end at the admissions office though. Unless you are accepted for Ivy or Porcellian, there are yet more people looking down their noses at you.

Oct 29, 2017

I agree that going to a better school will improve your chances

But the "don't show up with a degree from MIT" was hilarious. This guy has zero idea what he's talking about.

Oct 29, 2017

Bullshit. Especially after 2008.

Oct 29, 2017

sadly the author is spot on

Oct 29, 2017

I'm pretty sure for some people even going yo HYP will not be enough unless you are in some sort of a ultra-elite club or something.

Makes me sick!

Oct 29, 2017

hahaha...

some of you guys will make great cogs in the machine

The first rule of fight club is, you do not talk about fight club

The author is more than spot on, Wall Street was a meritocracy of hunger and determination for a century plus. Today, its about who you know or who you blow. Being an HYP kid is an advantage so large, huge does not even begin to describe it.

The fact that outliers who put everything into getting in, do...doesn't say or do anything to refute the premise of the article. Wall Street has become like the government...in fact if you look at it without the rose colored glasses... Wall Street is the government.

Oct 29, 2017

I will argue that Who You Know and Who You Blow have been out there for centuries. Yes, there are great examples of entrepreneurial spirits who fought their way in (today and 100 years ago), but you can't seriously be telling me that it's less of an equal playing field than it was in 1900.

I agree with the premise that great schools give you better chances. I just disagree with the hyperbole that there are only 3 great schools. I understand he didn't mean it literally, but seriously WTF is the point of the article then when you can take a quick step back and say "oh, I just exaggerated to prove a point." There's no need for the exaggeration. It's a simple premise - connections help and always have, and pure hard work might make you end up at Berkeley and not be enough for Harvard, sure. But you can still succeed from Berkeley as all major banks and "consultancy firms" still hire from Berkeley.

Oct 29, 2017

the source the author quotes, to be frank, sounds like a complete fucking tool and isn't someone I would ever want to work for.

of course pedigree matters, but the tone of the article is overdone. i don't think the author understands the "process" either. why are hypsw better represented than the other ivies and especially state schools? because more top students choose to attend hypsw over state schools, etc. (i think there are numbers back this) the name on the degree matters, but it's still a meritocracy. i doubt a 3.8 from michigan that has "really awesome" extracurriculars like winning an olympic medal is going to be passed over by banks for a harvard grad with similar qualifications - they'll both be given a chance. one just doesn't see many 3.8 olympians from michigan, which is why the rutgers guy ends up in a black hole.

Oct 29, 2017

I think HWP would be more appropriate for IB.

Oh, and calling out MIT is ridiculous.

Oct 29, 2017

What confuses me is the lack of specifics in this article. Exaclty which firms recruit at HYP and not other elite schools such as MIT, Columbia, Cornell or Chicago?

An old friend of mine studied engineering at a semi-target public school. He then went on to one of these "second tier" Ivy League schools for an MS in Engineering. He got an interview at McKinsey, but didn't put "everything into getting in", and in fact hadn't heard of McKinsey before applying for the position. It wasn't until after the interview that he found out that McKinsey was such a big deal. On another note, most of my buddies studying econ at Cal seem to get interviews at BB and MBB.

Could this article be referring to getting into a megafund right out of undergrad?

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

Oct 29, 2017

HYP? Since when was Yale "elite"?? I'm only half joking.

Oct 29, 2017
seamlessftw:

HYP? Since when was Yale "elite"?? I'm only half joking.

I have a feeling that it lost relevance, but is still used in the acronym because it reads "hip". HPC or HCP (assuming C is Columbia or Cornell or whatever) doesn't sound as good.

Oct 29, 2017

I go to Cornell. I don't really care if someone goes to Harvard or Yale or Community College. I don't care if some schmuck at Harvard thinks Cornell isn't a real Ivy. It is. End of story.

Oct 29, 2017

Only the holy trinity matters.

Oct 29, 2017

Huge advantage, but there are kids from every ivy league school at the major investment banks. Any investment bank that only recruits at HYP would have to be so small as to be irrelevant.

Oct 29, 2017

I wish this makes me feel better about recruiting... but fine, firms come to our campus to recruit, yes, we have shittons of alum at every bulge bracket, but that also means EVERYONE applies to every single ibanking opportunity. It's easier to get to the door handle, but still not easy to get your foot in

Oct 29, 2017

If you've done nothing to distinguish yourself in your career, and you only have the Ivy name on which to fall back, then the state school and LAC kids will lap you. Ivies are good for getting your foot in the door for elite jobs and getting you slightly longer looks for anything else, but 10 yrs in? Your work will be speaking for itself.

If, however, you're a talented Ivy grad with good technical skills and high EQ, you will thrive. But that goes for anybody. Study was done that showed that people good enough to get into Ivies who ended up choosing other schools showed no difference in earnings or income over time. The Ivy degrees probably offer you a networking advantage-but not much else after 5-10 yrs. That much time in and you'd better already have a solid reputation, numerous accomplishments, and a sizable rolodex-those will be what matter.

Oct 29, 2017

I'm not an Ivy student and therefore I was hoping and believed the answer would be similar to what you stated. That's the way it should be, it's only logical. The reason I asked though, is because from what I'm learning some things just aren't logical in the world. Always need to be sure.

Thanks!

**Edit** anyone have input on the mentorship question?

Oct 29, 2017

Yes, mentorships, I'm guessing you mean an older alumnus who is already in the field you want to be in could help as they can connect you with jobs and give good career advice. Also, I second an earlier post. Ivy over time won't matter.

Oct 29, 2017

Thank you for the input regarding mentorship.

Oct 29, 2017

Really depends on what you end up doing. All else equal though, I think that having an Ivy degree will be still be beneficial to you down the road. Primary benefit being that it lends to your "pedigree", and finance is very much in love with pedigree.

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Oct 29, 2017

I'm nearly 20 years into my career and didn't go Ivy. School rarely if ever comes up and I can't remember the last time it did unless it's social.

Oct 29, 2017

Well I want to be in the position that your profile states you are one day, so I'm happy to hear that! :)

Oct 29, 2017

Ivy doesn't come up unless it's social. Unfortunately much of business is social

Oct 29, 2017

Bosses (executives) know when you are a walking and talking bag of horse sh%t. Some of them are farm boys. There are agricultural farms in Massachusetts, just the same as there are Ag. farms in Texas. They all produce two types of products, those which are usable and the other which is equine, bovine, and swine manure. I am willing to bet that there is a statistical study, out in the academic universe that shows that the determined student, whom takes their field of study and profession seriously, and is then tenacious about their studies, tends to excel beyond those students who dump turd investment schemes and vacuous corporate achievements that are flatulent propagations of themselves based entirely upon their undergraduate institution. Just look at the thesis of the CDO, many of the designers were non-Ivy.

Oct 29, 2017

Well I hope you're right. I would assume after awhile (like people have been mentioning), school wouldn't even come into conversation. Good way to step in the door and that's fair enough, but after 5-10 years? I would assume you'd have better things to talk about (i.e. work related accomplishments) and for what reason would someone have to ask a ~30+ year old experienced assosciate/VP/MD what school they went to? Even if they did I'd figure at that point they should merit enough respect (through their position/work accomplished) that it shouldn't matter if they went to an unknown university or Harvard.

Oct 29, 2017

All else equal of course. In fact all else equal everything matters what kind of question is this?

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