Why guaranteed full-time offers make sense

Analyst 1 in Other

My comment on another post was getting some positive reactions, so I figured I'd share it more widely in its own post:

Using a virtual program to decide who does or does not get offers would always be referred to as an unfair system. And honestly, that would be rightly so. IB and consulting already offer an inherent advantage to rich kids -- so putting forth a system where kids in homes with slow/inconsistent/no internet, perhaps dysfunctional and fighting families, or parents who need them to also help out around the house -- makes it a very unlevel playing field. You can say "that's life" but that's not reflective of how they would perform on the job. The only level way to gauge the competency of interns is if they're all actually on the job.

Most reactions I've read regarding the decision made to guarantee full-time offers by Citi, Moelis, LEK, Strategy&, PwC, KPMG, Deloitte, and Oliver Wyman have all been quite positive, but there seemed to be a vocal, disgruntled minority. The truth is though that there is no meaningfully fair alternative to this.

Comments (175)

  • Prospect in Other
Apr 14, 2020

exactly!! thank you!

  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

Spot on!

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

Agree with this!

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

Thoughts on the conditonal on completing the virtual internship component?

Should FT offers still be extended to those who cannot complete the internship for some reason beyond their control.

    • 1
Apr 14, 2020

I think the virtual component is still necessary as (1) so that the intern understands the job and decides whether to take the offer or not and (2) so that firms can get to know the interns.

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

Thanks! I fully agree with you.

  • Investment Manager in AM - Equities
Apr 14, 2020

You can work anywhere with wifi, don't need to be at home.

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

Wow obviously you need to work at home for majority of your time now thanks to COVID-19 unless you live in North Korea. And even if you can go out to work. I don't think Starbucks or state library WiFi is equivalent to office one, let alone compliance issues.

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  • Investment Manager in AM - Equities
Apr 14, 2020

By the time the internship starts I'd imagine those places will be open...

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Funniest
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

Swing and a miss, take a lap champ

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    • 1
Apr 14, 2020

Ugh....considering that the summer Olympics was postponed and the fact that many summer classes are now going to be online, I think your prediction is unlikely.

Array

    • 1
Apr 14, 2020

The economy will be open like never before!

Array

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  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Apr 14, 2020

Also lots of times the library WiFi is also usually timed, I know at my public library at my hometown you got 45 minutes without reservation and up to 2 hours total if you reserved it anyways. College campus libraries are different, but also with COVID I doubt they'd even be open.

Apr 17, 2020

starbucks aren't even open these days

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  • Intern in S&T - FI
Apr 14, 2020

riiiiiight because state-imposed social distancing laws don't exist.....

literally hundreds of thousands of medical professionals telling everybody to stay at home and you're here saying "just go outside"

also if the pandemic sustains most likely places like starbucks or libraries will close early or won't even open - where else to go?

I'm fortunate enough to live in a decently affluent neighborhood, and the wifi still sucks, can't imagine how bad it can get for those less fortunate.

    • 2
Apr 16, 2020

Accessing files on my company's secure server over public wifi would be the fastest way out the door.

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  • Investment Manager in AM - Equities
Apr 16, 2020

You must not understand how VPN works

Apr 14, 2020

I'm actually dreading the thought of doing my internship virtually (thankfully its not confirmed yet). I have the opportunity to stay in a hostel in London for really cheap but the wifi is one of the most inconsistent shit in the world. Will 100% disconnect me plenty of times throughout the day. Tons of super noisy people too if I try and go downstairs. Literally fuuuuck.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

hopefully the banks are aware of this and adjust accordingly... ;)

Apr 14, 2020

How's that work for 15 hours a day?

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  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

Another thing not to forget is the timezone difference. Candidates from US and Asia that intern in Hong Kong virtually will have significant unfair playing ground. Students in US have to start work at 9pm and end around 1pm on following day for entire duration. This definitely put them as disadvantage. I'm happy that banks have put in thoughts and efforts for students and did something unprecedented. To all students that received auto-FT offers, please still do your best to make your school proud and also give the banks more confidence that this action works so as to benefits future similar events. For the ones that didn't get it, please be kind. I know some feel unfair, but let's be civilised and create a harmony environment for all. Thanks everyone. My sincere wish for everyone in this volatile environment.

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

Also, the travel restriction is a big problem. Some interns in US offices might still be quarantined in Europe and Asia. In Hong Kong office, some interns are still staying in the US or UK and couldn't come back because of the travel ban. Besides, even though they could come back to the office, different countries have different policy about self-quarantine, usually around 14 days. These factors make onsite internship very difficult and full time selection extremely unfair.

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  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

At the end of the day, none of you really care about the poor students or the international students. You just want a guaranteed return offer

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Controversial
  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

Why can't it be both? I'm a disadvantaged ORM and I might be 100% screwed if our internships are from home. My internet connection sucks and I have a disruptive home environment and I know for a fact I'd completely nail my internship since I have a 4.0 at an ivy and I can literally outwork anyone. Virtual internships don't level the playing field and I very much need a guaranteed offer.

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Apr 14, 2020

man dont worry, some are just salty cos they ain't got a summer internship

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

say it louder for the ones in the back

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Most Helpful
  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

If you think anyone at your firm cares about your 4.0 or how you can "outwork" anyone, you're in for a treat. Internships are about getting people to like you. Nobody likes a hardo

    • 44
Apr 14, 2020

It can be both, but don't pretend that you vocalize the smaller piece of you that wants (not "needs") a guaranteed return offer as frequently as you do the plight for the disadvantaged. Props to you for acknowledging it, but you don't preface your thoughts with the honest/balanced POV - You revert to, "I am a disadvantaged ORM"

Your comment reflects a serious disconnect. One second you "literally outwork anyone" and the next sentence you "need" a free offer that requires no work? I know you did a lot of work to get the offer, but my logic still holds true. You maintained a 4.0 at an Ivy, admirable accomplishment. If I remember correctly, there were a few distractions floating around my days in college... All of a sudden it is too much work to devise a plan to minimize distractions? I call BS and so did the other poster.

Chill on the "woah is me" narrative. Huge eye roll. You lose a lot of credibility when you start playing that game. The rat race controls you, not the other way around. Strap in for the ride, you chose it.

You clearly have the right head on your shoulders and work ethic based on the A+ decisions you have made thus far in the game of life. Let that carry you and define your credibility, not some false narrative.

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Apr 14, 2020

You seem like you're fun at parties

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

What the heck is an ORM

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

I agreed with the first part, until I read about your GPA and "outworking" skills. Can't tell if this is a troll, but the point of internships is to weed out kids like you lol. I see why you don't want your co-workers to meet you in person before deciding on an offer for you.

    • 1
Apr 14, 2020

they are paying you. pay for better internet or rent a room elsewhere.

Apr 18, 2020

Upgrade your internet connection then

  • Intern in S&T - FI
Apr 14, 2020

And what's wrong with that? especially now that its not as impossible as people once thought it'd be after Moelis and Citi did it. Is it wrong for us kids to want a guaranteed offer?

but also re: "I very much need a guaranteed offer" - my guy u need to check yourself...

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  • Analyst 1 in Other
Apr 14, 2020

Major thing to wonder about is where the top consulting firms, McKinsey, Bain, and BCG are during all of this. Consulting is supposed to be the "politically correct" industry where all the companies claim to "deeply card" about their employees. Their interns have not heard a thing about what their summers will involve or if they get guaranteed offers.

Positive sign for banking that firms like Moelis and Citi stepped up first. Not a good look for consulting.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

banking has always > consulting anyway...

but side note - perhaps it's due to the fact that banking provides tangible products to the client as compared to consulting

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  • Incoming Analyst in Consulting
Apr 14, 2020

Nah, banks have worse reputations when it comes to this, that's why they need a statement.

I wouldn't worry about MBB not honoring offers.

    • 3
Apr 14, 2020

I got an email saying my consulting internship has moved to virtual for the summer

  • Analyst 1 in Other
Apr 14, 2020

What firm? MBB, T2, Big 4, or boutique?

  • Analyst 3+ in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

The BB I work at has pushed back the start date but still debating this.

My understanding is that we typically give out 80-90% FT offers to interns and it has been brought up that automatic FT offers is a possibility. However, there is significant push back against giving out automatic FT offers because many people feel that it was not "earned". It seems that virtual internship is still the preferred method. People have also brought up the idea of FT interviews offered to interns as well.

I think we would need to see another major BB do the same thing as Citi did, before the automatic FT offers can gain more traction.

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  • Prospect in Other
Apr 14, 2020

Thanks for the colour. What exactly are they considering regarding FT interviews? As in FT interviews at the end of internship?

  • Intern in S&T - FI
Apr 14, 2020

thank you for the valuable insight. it's refreshing to see actual professionals weigh in instead of college kids telling each other yah yah dw man we're defo getting FT offers or no bro the whole bank will collapse if they convert everyone

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  • Analyst 1 in Other
Apr 14, 2020

What would be the point of FT interviews for interns? Nothing has changed since their internship interview, so wouldn't it just be a waste of everyone's time?

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  • Prospect in Other
Apr 14, 2020

I agreee. and the interns that got offers were already the very best performers/the top kids during the superdays. so what would they base FT offers on if they interviewed everyone again? "well he had a slightly better story to my 'tell me a time when...' question than her, so let's give him the offer instead" or "he shook my hand a little better than her so let's give him the offer". the offers would just be decided over arbitrary differences

    • 3
Apr 16, 2020

because full time interviews expect you to know more. especially in this particular example of having just done a summer internship (albeit online). It will not be at the same level as a summer internship interview...

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

what could be gained through an FT interview that they don't already know from working with the interns for that period?

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  • Intern in CorpFin
Apr 14, 2020

Completely agree with this, thank you for the solid post!

Apr 14, 2020

They really were right when they said that capitalists become socialists during economic crises.

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  • Investment Manager in AM - Equities
Apr 14, 2020

Who?

Apr 14, 2020

Nobody lmao

Array

Apr 15, 2020

The saying is backwards though, socialists become capitalists during economic crises

Gun rights activist
  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

Agree! I live in an apartment with my family and my uncle's family. My uncle has 1,2, and 7 years old. My bank is doing virtual internship. The playing field will not be the same because I have to share a room with my 2 siblings and my cousins are fighting every single minutes. So there goes my return offer...

    • 2
Apr 14, 2020

Give bankers the benefit of the doubt. I would explain the nature of your circumstances once you meet the full-time analyst with which you are paired at the onset of the program. They understand that these are unique times.

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

Thanks. I am really gonna try my best. But how do I explain them without sounding petty? I don't want to tell them that I am poor as shit and explain my condition. People judge u when u r from low-income background. They automatically believe that you are doing IB JUST for money. I have had someone say that before.

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  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Apr 14, 2020

People will understand, if you got the offer to intern just energetic, have a good attitude, and be communicative about the situation- anyone having an issue that you're not in the ideal place to work seems inconsiderate - it's not like you asked for this.

You should be fine if you put the right foot forward, and have a good attitude - and if anyone counts your home situation against you well remember these internships are a two way street.

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  • Works at Jefferies & Company
Apr 14, 2020
Intern in IB - Gen:

Agree! I live in an apartment with my family and my uncle's family. My uncle has 1,2, and 7 years old. My bank is doing virtual internship. The playing field will not be the same because I have to share a room with my 2 siblings and my cousins are fighting every single minutes. So there goes my return offer...

Aren't you getting paid 10 weeks for doing 5 weeks of work? You can easily afford your own apartment for a month..... Amazing how people still expect things to be handed to them even while the world goes to shit.

  • Prospect in Other
Apr 14, 2020

Actually no. My bank is not paying interns for all 10 weeks, only for the duration of the online internship. I am fine with this, because I understand the circumstances that the bank/the economy is in. I am thankful to still have this position and am not complaining. But no, all interns are not receiving 10 weeks pay that they can just easily put towards housing for the summer in their home cities.

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

Let me break it down to you
1) I am doing 10 weeks virtual internship
2) I live in NYC
3) My parents work at a fast food chain and a restaurant
4) Stimulus check that my parents received will not be enough to pay for months rent
5) I am on financial aid and work all year long to support myself. I work during school year and my school is giving me my paycheck even though I am not working. I buy groceries with that money because my parents literally don't have money.
6) We don't have enough money to go out and rent an apartment
7) There is someone else from my school who will be interning with me. She's from California. She just signed a lease and will be staying in NYC because of the 3 hours time difference. She doesn't want the time difference to impact her internship.

I'll try to get better internet and try my best. Nothing has been handed to me and I don't expect my bank to hand me an internship. Thanks for your comment.

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Apr 14, 2020

If you live in the suburbs it may be difficult / impossible to find a place to just "rent for a month" When the fuck have you ever seen places like that that aren't random craigslist / sketchy offers. Why would you want to move in with / near random people during a PANDEMIC and Quarantine? If you live in a major city and assume you can even find a place willing to rent for 1-2 months, how is a low-income person going to afford 1st, last, security, fees?

What about people whose parents can afford to buy them a solid computer / double monitors vs. the kid working off a corner of his kitchen table with a 13 inch laptop screen?

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

you know you are getting paid still right? just rent a place or airbnb or something to get out of the house..

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Apr 14, 2020

Then rent a room like you would in NY. You would have had to anyway.

Apr 14, 2020

You're still getting paid right? Call your ISP and get some better internet for the time being. If you can't focus at home, sublet an apartment in your hometown. You can do this by taking necessary precautions and staying safe with the virus wandering around. This will probably be cheaper than the previous plan of renting out in NYC or other major cities. Don't see this as a disadvantage and if you were from a disadvantaged background you'd have enough hustle and drive to work through it. You've come far, adapt and keep trucking through.

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Apr 14, 2020

In a perfect world, yes, people would be able to do these things but obviously this wont work. Almost all college campuses understand the uneven playing field that has been created by sending thousands of their students home and haven't forced their students to get better internet or be met with an "oh well it is what it is"

Array

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  • Analyst 1 in Other
Apr 14, 2020

The same kids who need their internship earnings for college are now supposed to sublet an apartment at last moment's notice? And how would you even do that given that most of the population is under stay at home orders? Living alone and cooking/cleaning/doing groceries all by yourself right now is a stupid choice.

And then you say "Don't see this as a disadvantage and if you were from a disadvantaged background you'd have enough hustle and drive to work through it."

This kind of shit makes me so mad. How wise did you feel when you typed this? You clearly know nothing about what it's like to be disadvantaged. Just because you CAN hustle through this shit doesn't mean you don't have every right to be furious if you're being put at a clear disadvantage. Your answer is that kids who are disadvantaged have always had a tough time...so let that continue. Seriously?

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  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

damn bro sounds like you ready to throw down over a comment on an online forum

agree w you tho

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

I live in NYC and my area has one of the higest case in New York. I can't really go anywhere.

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

.

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Apr 14, 2020

Hustle and drive here doesn't totally apply here..you can't hustle and drive your way through a pandemic that's basically frozen America in place. Sometimes things are just out of one's hands.

WFH for plenty of people full time is already significantly less than ideal.

What interns can do is make the most out of it, keep communicating with HR & when they find out their groups / mentors completely communicate their home life situation.

There are way too many variables in place right now to consider any gauge of work load from interns fairly.

    • 1
Apr 14, 2020

You obviously grew up with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Array

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

and you with a cock in your mouth

    • 1
Apr 14, 2020

If the internship wasn't cancelled and everyone still went to NY, they'd be responsible for rent, lunch, transportation, and all the other miscellaneous costs. If it were virtual and people were getting paid the full amount, and they lived in an unsuitable environment for work, they can fix that with that money. Rather than paying NY rent for the 10 weeks, worst case, they can rent an apt where they're from for the time which would be significantly cheaper. But I think most people would be adversely affected by things like internet speed. So they'd live at home, not pay rent, and they can pay for better internet speed for the duration of the internship. Rather than spending 4k for NYU dorms, they spent $240 for 3 months of internet access. And at least with the virtual internships we'd still be getting paid, we'd earn our FT offers, and we'd develop relationships with our colleagues who we'll be working with for the next few years.

Array

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  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

This is 100% spot on- people all of the sudden are forgetting that there are real costs to having the internship in NYC- costs that far outweigh 99% of different living situations around the country. If this internship means so much to these students- they should be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to get it done- noisy family?- get an apartment. Slow internet?- buy faster internet. All of these solutions are a fraction of the cost that it takes to live in NYC during the summer...

These posts are starting to look a hell of a lot more like entitlement than anything else- precisely the reason why there should be a selection process to weed out kids who are not willing to put in the effort to succeed in their internships.

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

You might have had a point on the internet assuming they could fix that without bringing a guy from their ISP or whatever to their house to set up the new router. But even besides that unlikelihood, good luck renting out an apartment during a global pandemic. You think someone's sitting in the leasing office ready to give a tours and go through paperwork with everyone? lmao cmon

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Apr 14, 2020

It's not that simple, you know. You don't know how 90 percent of the world lives.

Array

Apr 14, 2020

Great point. But unfortunately, there will be some free-riding slackers.

Array

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

Current 1st year analyst here. To those complaining about having to compete for a FT offer during virtual training, I analyzed a few arguments I've seen. Most I've seen are entitled (other banks did this so mine should too), but some have some solid reasoning:

I'll start with the most credible argument I've seen:

1)I understand the dysfunctional family/unsafe space to work worry. That is valid. But does that outweight everything else? I mean, you had to do it in high school and you got into college. If this is really an issue, do a short-term rental closer to home. You were going to pay for rent in (I assume) NYC anyway, this will be cheaper. Sucks, but could be a possible work-around. Remember, assuming pro-rated standard $85k, you'll be taking home around $12,500 after taxes for the summer. Short term rentals will be like $1k per month if this is really an issue. But again, this point is very unfortunate and is the argument I have the most respect for. Still don't think it carries enough weight for most large investment banks to decide to give every intern an offer before they actually intern (the weeding out process), absolutely 100% guarenteed. But again, this is the most solid argument I've seen.

2) If this was a full-time job, you'd NEED a good WiFi connection anyway. During your internship, you are paid pro-rated the same salary as full-time, so might as well invest in good WiFi now. Standard BB/EB/MM internships will pay you $2,500+ every other week after tax. That is enough to buy a good router and system. Firm will supply laptops and monitors (assumption).

3) You need to understand that some banks give 90%+ of their interns offers, while other banks plan to give out return offers to 50-60% of their interns. You want them to increase their class size by 50% so everyone can fit to give everyone a "fair" chance? C'mon.

4) I understand that its tough to guage someone's capabilities during WFH, but WFH is part of the job in this current environment. If you can't adapt to these new conditions during this internship to prove yourself useful during these weird times, you should not be in this industry. It's all about your ability to adapt through tough times and adversity. This argument doesn't seem valid.

My 2 cents. Feel free to challenge or add different catalysts/mitigants that I didn't address.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

One add on - these are unique times and I think everyone understands that. I assume full-time return offer rates will be very high anyway, since it is hard to guage who's really "good" as an intern. I guess the most important thing will be to try to form relationships over phone/WebEx with your "mentor" or group analysts to explain the situation.

I think people are overreacting to this, and even if guarenteed offers are NOT given out beforehand, I don't think most will have a tough time landing an offer, as long as they have a good attidude and keep their team members in the loop.

  • Analyst 1 in S&T - Other
Apr 14, 2020

I'm on the same page as you for the majority of this, I think the WFH thing though is an argument better suited for those who are full time. I can't imagine the pain in the ass it would be to try and help an intern maneuver through lots of the systems and shit that a huge bank has via remote discussion.

I work at a BB and I'm currently WFH, I agree you need to adapt and make best efforts in these times, but that's for those already trying to push value to the bank. I can't imagine trying to explain to an intern via Skype or zoom how to use Bloomberg effectively, or how to help them navigate through more bank specific programs / software is worth the hassle and even then it's not totally fair to judge them on it if they don't get it right away. It's not a organic environment for them to totally learn how to work at an investment bank.

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  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

Random question, but is it actually true they would supply laptops or monitors to everyone?? That would be pretty huge about 1k right there or is that only for top BB/EB?

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

I mean, during normal internships interns receive laptops (every MM/BB/EB I know of). Banks don't want you doing confidential deal information on a personal computer. I could see them giving you a stipend for a WFH setup. A lot of banks already do that during normal times.

Apr 14, 2020

This is exactly what I'm thinking. SB

Array

  • Summer Associate in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

Most of the points above are valid but i think honestly, the bigger case is if someone gets coronavirus during what is now a super short 5 week internship, they could be completely fucked AND the PR nightmare for the banks not giving a ft offer to someone getting sick during a global pandemic would be insane (or they give preferential treatment to someone who is sick and then everyone bitches). i know we're pretending like this is some quasi vacation work from home situation but hundreds of thousands of people are getting sick and the odds that one of the interns getting sick are decently high.

that being said, on the flip side, if the banks only planned to hire 70% of their class, what are they gonna do? Overhire into what already seems like a very soft M&A market. the ones with lower historical return rates or who are hurting financially are in a pretty fucked spot here and i think that's where the "wait and see" comes from.

Cases on both sides here but also debating this from the outside is pretty pointless (though i realize im now joining in). i am certain these conversations are being had at most/all of the top banks. just gotta acknowledge this is a tough spot for the banks and for you and try to figure out what you can do to be as prepared as humanly possible for the summer

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

I think people are overestimating the difficulty of getting a return offer during a virtual internship. They know that it is weird. They know it is not normal. They know that there are some kids (who are future star analysts) that may not know anyone at the firm yet and have a difficult time meeting everyone. I wouldn't worry too much about receiving a return offer, as long as you do what you would do during a normal internship: work hard, positive attitude, try to help in whatever way you can, show genuine curiosity.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 16, 2020

Honestly yeah banks would just give an offer if you got sick as long as you were a decent performer.

But also no one would really give a fuck if a bank didn't give an offer to some kid that got sick. Bank could just claim "headcount", they would never say it was bc of the sickness. No PR issue there.

Walmart's literally been firing people for getting sick and missing work days. Dozens of grocery workers have died. Now that's a PR issue...

Apr 14, 2020

Check out Stanford's lecture on "Future Ethics." It talks a bit about how machines are inherently biased and will make decisions solely based on the data it's given.

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 15, 2020

What?

  • Associate 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

Horse may have left the barn already on this thread, but here are my 2 cents, since no one asked: I think that whether they offer them now or later, most of Wall Street will make offers to ALL summers. It gets rid of the PR nightmare based on the very valid points made about disparate working environments at home.

HOWEVER. What goes up must come down. My (completely speculative) thought is that the banks will make up for this potential overhiring during fulltime training. The logical move is to cut more people during fulltime training, as many banks do for those who score below X% on the tests they administer during training. This basically allows the banks to keep the same analyst class size as always, avoid a PR nightmare and wait out the COVID storm until next year -all for the cheap price of a few extra signing bonuses.

I hope the best for everyone, but that's how I'd handle it if I was told my senior management to navigate this situation.

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  • Prospect in IB - DCM
Apr 14, 2020

Normally, what % of people are cut by banks during full time training?

  • Intern in IB - Ind
Apr 14, 2020

I don't disagree with anything you said but since when did banks cut people during training in the past when things were normal? Someone has a FT offer for like 9+ months and then gets cut after the first few weeks on the desk? I'm pretty sure would have heard about this from people because you are essentially screwed in that case. I defientely think for the current situation this is possible it just makes no sense how that would have happened in the past.

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  • Associate 1 in IB-M&A
Apr 14, 2020

In North America, I think the practice had declined since the GFC, and banks really only cut those who can't pass the SIE, Series 7, 63, etc. The American offices have gotten really good at projecting their staffing needs and tend to shy away from the practice.

However, if you ask anyone with a bit of seniority (Lefevre talks about Citi doing this in NYC pre 2008 in Straight to Hell ), they will tell stories about people getting a BBM while in a auditorium listening to a training presentation to "come see me" and getting axed on the spot. You can also find threads about junior bankers getting axed after only weeks on the desk in London and HK as well (JPM being a particular offender as recently as last year)

Again, I am completely speculating here, but that seems like the best way to get through this crazy situation while not overhiring and maintaining a reason for cutting people that still puts everyone on an equal playing field.

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  • Incoming Analyst in IB - Gen
Apr 14, 2020

This doesn't happen- have never heard of this practice at any bank, although I've seen posts from pre 2008 but it seemed rare then as well and only because the finance industry was melting down during that time

Apr 14, 2020

Hot take: WFH will be a net positive for good interns because you're solely judged based on quality of work and ability to communicate over the phone, not your personality nor looks. Nerdy kid who can crush an LBO but is a social idiot gains handsomely from this situation IMO.

Totally understand everyone comes from different backgrounds and everyone's circumstances are different, but unfortunately life is not fair.

Apr 14, 2020

I understand where you're coming from but isn't the ability to be personable and hold a conversation a vital part of banking and finance in general? Not to mention most people don't want to sit next to "a social idiot" for 80+ hours a week.

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Apr 15, 2020
Irishfox13:

I understand where you're coming from but isn't the ability to be personable and hold a conversation a vital part of banking and finance in general? Not to mention most people don't want to sit next to "a social idiot" for 80+ hours a week.

I didn't say it was good for me, it's good for the kids who are normally socially inept to have a fighting chance.

Apr 14, 2020

I have no intel - but if there is a significant excess headcount, I'd watch banks (especially BBs) try to move people to other functions (middle office / ops) or offer a delayed start (like next year - if I recall consulting firms did that 08/09)

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  • Intern in Research - FI
Apr 14, 2020

At the risk of sounding selfish do you guys think this will hurt chances for SA 2021 offers (both internship and return offers)? With so many securing full time offers I'm sure banks will have fewer spots to fill. Combined with a potentially reeling job market it worries me what the landscape is going to look like. Would love to hear what someone with more experience thinks!

Apr 15, 2020

Thank you OP! I've been saying this for a while. Something else that must be considered is students and/or their family/roommates getting corona. Sure these banks can be cold blooded, but will they really cut a kid whose dad gets hospitalized and/or dies mid-internship? That will obviously affect his/her performance. What about if the intern gets sick themself and is out two weeks. Two weeks is almost half the internship now that they're shortened. Too many potential PR nightmares. Banks will follow Citi's steps here.

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  • VP in PE - LBOs
Apr 15, 2020

I think this is the right move for many of the aforementioned reasons.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the auto-offer classes early on during their full time stints. When I was in banking, it was considered a huge deal to layoff an analyst - would need to be for something egregious. My guess is part of the reason full time analyst retention is so high is people that should not be there - can't handle the hours, the politics, have attitude issues etc. - get weeded out during the internship. Curious to see if banks start having interim check ins with analysts - make the 2 year program more of a "one and one".

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  • Prospect in IB - DCM
Apr 16, 2020

Several banks have already come out and sent program updates, without mentioning FT offers. Hope I'm wrong, but it's beginning to look like Citi/Moelis are anomalies in this situation. What do you think are the chances most banks will eventually guarantee offers sometime down the line?

  • Prospect in 
Apr 16, 2020

No chance

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  • Intern in Other
Apr 15, 2020

How do you think virtual sales and trading internships will look in comparison to virtual ibanking internships? Why type of virtual "tasks" do you think will be given to sales and trading interns?

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  • Prospect in 
Apr 16, 2020

Ordering food

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Apr 16, 2020

its not about fair or not, its about getting cheap labor before they fire the expensive ones

Apr 17, 2020

Absolutely agree with you!

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 17, 2020

That's even covering only a few of the potential issues. Whether we like it or not judging candidates from a virtual internship is just shooting in the air, no meaningful way to differentiate them and highly unfair for many

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Apr 18, 2020

This makes no sense at all. Slow internet? Buy faster internet then. Internet doesn't cost that much money and last time I checked, internships are paid...so not having money is not an excuse. Have to help out around the house? Again, makes no sense. If the kid were to actually do an internship in person, will the household collapse because they couldn't help out around the house? wtf?

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  • Intern in S&T - Equities
Apr 19, 2020

Congrats for living in an area where fast and reliable internet exists. Not everyone does.

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Apr 20, 2020

the vast majority of the interns do lol, you are making up an issue that doesn't exist. Of an intern class size of 100, maybe 1 or 2 people live in an area with slow and unreliable internet. You want banks to give out full time offers to everyone because of 1 or 2 kids? I'm sure there is another solution to this that doesn't require banks to over hire by 50%

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  • Associate 1 in IB - Gen
Apr 19, 2020

Reasons to extend full time offers to all interns: 1000 thoughtful and detailed arguments.

Reasons to not extend full-time offers to everyone: we are currently living / about to live through the worst economy of our, our parents, and some of our grandparents lifetime. US unemployment will hit 30% by the end of April. The Fed increased its balance sheet by ~$2 trillion in the past 3 weeks and will double if the shutdown continues into the summer. Non-bank lenders & housing market is teetering on collapse. Doesn't make sense for banks, or any company, to over-hire in the first inning of a global recession / depression.

Which argument do you think will win out in the real world (not the message boards)?

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Apr 19, 2020

But this year's intern class is supposedly the pipeline for 2021+, at that point the economy may be headed towards/in the midst of a recovery. Based on that wouldn't it be in the banks interest to be forward looking and hire as such?

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  • Associate 1 in IB - Gen
Apr 20, 2020

Maybe I'm missing something but why does the need for a pipeline equate to a need to hire 100% of a class whose size was based on the strongest economy of recent memory, but will in fact be the weakest ever seen?

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  • Prospect in Other
Apr 19, 2020

agree with ^^. if this was in another industry, such as corp. finance, where positions are relatively equal and aren't as distinctive as 1st year analyst, 2nd year analyst, 1st year associate, etc. in a few years, banks are going to need to have 2nd year associates or 2nd year analysts, when the economy will likely be recovered. so wouldn't banks want to go ahead and hire to prepare for that time?

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  • Intern in S&T - Equities
Apr 20, 2020

Citi disagrees

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Apr 20, 2020

I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people commenting here have never met a poor person, ya'll are fucking idiots.

For those giving me SB, I hope you realize I am talking about the idiots on here trying to portray poor people as completely useless. If a person was able to survive high school AND get into college, they'll be able to a complete one virtual summer internship, calm the fuck down.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Apr 20, 2020
Comment
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Apr 22, 2020
Apr 22, 2020
  • Intern in HF - EquityHedge
Apr 22, 2020
  • Prospect in S&T - Equities
Apr 22, 2020
Apr 22, 2020