4/30/08

Both schools cost the same for undergrad, but Williams is offering me a scholarship that will pay most of the cost for any graduate/professional school including MBA.
If i plan on going to ibanking or consulting.
Will the possible advantage in recruitment from Dartmouth be worth giving up the scholarship for a possible future MBA?

Comments (40)

4/30/08

I would go with Williams. Dartmouth may have an 'edge' with recruiting, but you also have to factor in the difference in applicant pools from both schools, and where you fit (and that's something you'll have to figure out on your own). Just throwing that out there.

Judging by the great scholarship you've earned, I feel like there realistically won't be a significant difference in terms of where you end up after undergrad -- the only difference is by going to Williams you'll come out debt free, and on top of that go back to school without worrying for the cost.

It's a no brainer.

Financial Modeling

4/30/08
untitled:

Williams is offering me a scholarship that will pay most of the cost for any graduate/professional school including MBA.

Williams is offering to pay for your MBA? Wtf?

4/30/08

http://www.williams.edu/admission/finaid_faq.php?i...

Yes, it's called the Tyng scholarship and gives out need-based grants from very little for Phd programs to up to more than $50,000 each year for expensive professional schools for three years.

4/30/08

Absolutely do Williams considering the financial advantage.

My brother goes to Williams and it sounds like those who are set on banking or consulting usually have no trouble getting there.

4/30/08

damn, that is a bad ass scholarship.

4/30/08

My perspective about Williams and finance (I'm from Williams):

Both are fantastic schools, and you probably won't find much of a difference academically. Williams is much smaller and is restricted to undergrad. Thus there are no TA's teaching courses (don't know about Dartmouth), and relationships with professors are VERY close. If you're interested in trading, the math dept is usually regarded as one of the stronger, if not the strongest, for undergrad.

Williams is more prone to interest laid-back mountain-hiking active types and kids who've been admitted to but shunned the big ivies for an undergrad-centric environment (more Williams students than not seem to have been admitted to H/P/Y as well). This really helps to dull the fault of pretension that's pretty rampant in the elite schools, and you still have a top-notch pool of intelligence. From my visits to Dartmouth I'd say that the two schools have somewhat different atmospheres, but Dartmouth is more like Williams than most other ivies in the above respect.

Now to banking recruitment. Dartmouth's name might be more universally well known, but that isn't the case in the Northeast or the banking world. Williams students have historically made very strong bankers, so there are tons of MD contacts and the name is very well regarded. I had 20+ MD interviews in trading, and several (at least 25%) interviewers made a comment about how impressed they were with Williams and its bankers. One even made a remark to the effect of "this mortgage crisis shows us how we need smarter people, and taking a few kids from Williams sure would be a step in the right direction." Williams is a target for every program and regularly sends people D.E. Shaw and other prestigious offices (I know of 3 off the top of my head just hailing from our math dept)...I really doubt you'll find better name recognition in banking.

As for banking within the school, the Econ department is essentially pre-WallSt. Most Econ majors go into banking, and Econ is by far the biggest major (something like 100/480 majored in Econ last year). Everyone who interviews finds an offer somewhere...I was pre-med with nothing but a little math on my resume and I had no trouble landing a BB sales/trading internship. On-campus interviews are very friendly and virtually everyone has an opportunity to interview with each firm since, as a small campus, we have a much smaller pool of applicants. Lots of job postings in our graduate system from Williams MD's that want Williams kids in their office. I don't know of anyone that hasn't found a respectable offer somewhere, and most have received the offers of their choice.

Anyway, I hope this helps clear up the misconception that Dartmouth has a recruitment advantage. The scholarship is very well regarded within the school (obviously, it's massive), so it's an honor to receive it when you're competing against a bunch of other brilliant students. It's a huge thing to have on your resume...people in banking know that Williams doesn't give out scholarships like that to just anyone. With that, I'd say Williams is a no-brainer, as long as you like the atmosphere.

If you want more info, PM me.

4/30/08

you may want to do some independent research first. obviously, blackmahi sounds just a tad bit biased and may be unreliable ("more Williams students than not seem to have been admitted to h/y/p as well"...)

as for how williams kids do in terms of banking/s&t recruitment, i can't comment, so i won't. but take what people here say with a grain of salt (esp alums...who all tend to love to say how great their school does). sending 3 kids to de shaw is not indicative of anything except that that year you had 3 fucking math geniuses...

my more important point though--
i wouldn't worry TOO much about the difference in future costs for b-school (since as you said, the cost for undergrad is the same at both schools, since presumably they both meet your expected financial need). the beauty of b-school is that it's designed to rocket you into high paying careers immediately after you graduate. obviously, if there was a difference in undergrad costs, this would be a very different situation since there would be 160k of debt now you wouldn't be able to pay off quickly.

after 2 years in banking, you should have at least 20-40k saved up (if not significantly more), and hell, associate signing bonuses these days are 60k...you will be able to wipe out any b-school debt very fast if you are even a little bit prudent with planning. and as long as you get an undergrad job in banking, you should have no problem going back and getting this kind of money after a good b-school. if you take a post banking job in PE, well, completely not going to be an issue. and i should mention, that if you go into s&t post college, most people who are good never go back to bschool these days. in banking, more people are doing the same thing.

so do some more research, but don't over rely either on what alums on these boards say, and seriously, don't think too much about b-school costs. i mean, you want to go into finance, right?

as a prefrosh, the outlay is 6-9 years in the future, and should be probability weighted. discount that shit.

4/30/08
xqtrack:

you may want to do some independent research first. obviously, blackmahi sounds just a tad bit biased and may be unreliable ("more Williams students than not seem to have been admitted to h/y/p as well"...)

as for how williams kids do in terms of banking/s&t recruitment, i can't comment, so i won't. but take what people here say with a grain of salt (esp alums...who all tend to love to say how great their school does). sending 3 kids to de shaw is not indicative of anything except that that year you had 3 fucking math geniuses...

my more important point though--
i wouldn't worry TOO much about the difference in future costs for b-school (since as you said, the cost for undergrad is the same at both schools, since presumably they both meet your expected financial need). the beauty of b-school is that it's designed to rocket you into high paying careers immediately after you graduate. obviously, if there was a difference in undergrad costs, this would be a very different situation since there would be 160k of debt now you wouldn't be able to pay off quickly.

after 2 years in banking, you should have at least 20-40k saved up (if not significantly more), and hell, associate signing bonuses these days are 60k...you will be able to wipe out any b-school debt very fast if you are even a little bit prudent with planning. and as long as you get an undergrad job in banking, you should have no problem going back and getting this kind of money after a good b-school. if you take a post banking job in PE, well, completely not going to be an issue. and i should mention, that if you go into s&t post college, most people who are good never go back to bschool these days. in banking, more people are doing the same thing.

so do some more research, but don't over rely either on what alums on these boards say, and seriously, don't think too much about b-school costs. i mean, you want to go into finance, right?

as a prefrosh, the outlay is 6-9 years in the future, and should be probability weighted. discount that shit.

Congrats on getting accepted to both. I am probably somewhat biased because I went to Williams as well (class of 2002)...both schools are in small towns and are damn cold in the winter. both schools have great recruiting. both schools are academically rigorous and well respected on Wall St.

The small class size and access to professors is great at Williams, but I would visit both to see which one you like best. Either way, you will easily get recruited at either institution assuming you keep your GPA above a 3.5. Having the scholarship also would look very good on the resume and for the actual class size, Williams is a huge feeder into Wall St. so you won't have trouble....but i don't think you'd have trouble at Dartmouth either. basically you're in a win-win so try to get as good a feel for the schools as you can.

4/30/08

uh, go to Dartmouth. Dartmouth is like twice the size of williams, but I've definitely met more than twice as many Dartmouth alums on the street than Williams (probably 3 to 4 times as many). that's all i know. dartmouth's street representation is very, very strong. i think others here can back me up on that.

go to the best school you can get into. name, pedigree etc. matters. both schools are so similar in terms of lifestyle and 'small-town' feel that you can get in.

i was considering both when i was applying, ended up going away from the east coast (made the right choice for me).

4/30/08

some of the worst advice ever given on this board.

4/30/08
Jay Buhner was sweet:

some of the worst advice ever given on this board.

wwerdd

4/30/08
bmwhype:
Jay Buhner was sweet:

some of the worst advice ever given on this board.

wwerdd

i am a bit surprised. what exactly about the advice do you find objectionable? i stated my reasons. I know a lot of people on this board stress the 'fit' part of college and i agree with that. like i said before, both schools are very similar in terms of culture and social life.

i think it's sound advice. i am telling him to go to a place that is larger, will afford more opportunities and will likely help him explore a wider variety of post-grad options. i've always believed that your education is what you make of it, sad thing is, the real world works a bit differently. for any field you want to make it into, it's good to have a wider network/contacts/what-have-you. dartmouth does that.

if it was between dartmouth and say stanford, the cultures would be very different, but i'd tell him to take a strong look at stanford due its objective advantages etc.

would love to hear what part you guys disagree with. i think i am approaching the decisions rationally...

Financial Modeling

4/30/08

williams and dartmouth are basically identical in terms of lifestyle, professor interaction, isolated location, bit parties etc.

i dunno, i guess i've found out that everyone asks where you went to undergrad and everyone cares up to the top. having a big alumni net work/bigger name helps. especially now that the world is being globalized. 'ivy league' will have a bigger cachet. plus, dartmouth has more options and better representation on the street.

also, don't work about mba/grad school. you have no idea if you'll even go eventually...

just my 2 cents, i am sure others disagree.

4/30/08

Go to williams...they def do get placed well.

they are both great schools, i would go with the one that gives most money.

Best,
SoulSearching

Best,
SoulSearching

4/30/08

haha, this is a harder choice than i thought it would be. I have to make a decision tonight. Tomorrow is the deadline. Any more comments?

4/30/08

I went to a high school where there were a number of students that got accepted into Dartmouth and Williams. I didn't apply to either, but I think there were about 25-30 people that got into Dartmouth and 8-10 that got into Williams. The admit ratio was slightly lower for Williams, but the grade point average and typical SAT scores were also higher. Now, obviously admissions rate doesn't matter much to you at this point since you've already gotten into both, but I still think getting into a college is a means of pre-screening, and most people, at least at my school, felt that Williams was more selective -- at least among the people that decided to apply. But you really have to keep in mind that the applicant pool might be a bit self-selecting -- you'd see more of the standard class of good students applying to Dartmouth, whereas good students who also knew that they wanted to attend a smaller school applied to Williams.

Then you have to think about whether you want to go to a moderately-sized school (Dartmouth) versus a small one (Williams). I assume that you've toured both, because if you haven't, well...I'll just assume you did because every prudent person would check out where they might be spending their next four years. I think the student environment is something you really should think about, as well as the fact that you'll generally have much closer interaction with your professors at Williams because of the smaller class sizes.

I recognize that my advice is pretty generic, but those are the things I'd be thinking about if I were in your shoes. With respect to Blackmahi's comments about how there are a number of students that got admitted to HYP but instead chose Williams (versus the same number that may have gotten into Dartmouth who were faced with the same decision), I would expect Williams to have a higher number -- simply because it's a much different school from HYPS than Dartmouth is. I would think that if a candidate were set on going to a typical Ivy League school and got into all of them, he/she probably would have chosen HYPS...whereas comparing HYPS to Williams is essentially like apples to oranges, and maybe you see more people choosing Williams over HYPS after their student visits because they like discover that they like going to a smaller liberal arts school. Who knows?

Saving the best for last...that scholarship you've been offered is very substantial, and I would weigh that pretty heavily in the decision making process if I were you.

Anyway, it's all pretty speculative but at the end of the day, the decision is yours and you should take everyone's feedback with a grain of salt. As a disclaimer, I didn't apply to either Williams or Dartmouth (I was an HYPS graduate and only applied to a handful of schools because of personal considerations) -- but if I had to compare those two schools, my thought process would be just what I outlined to you earlier. But they are both very good schools and I'm sure you'll do fine at both.

4/30/08

thats weird, at my school the exact opposite was true (ie the dartmouth kids were better than the williams kids, and the williams kids were not people who had the option of hyps, but neither were the dartmouths--and some of the dartmouth kids were really stellar, where not a single person i can think of who went to wiliams in any of the 4 years i was there was). but hey, different strokes for different folks (also high schools tend to have cultures about colleges and what kids think are prestigious)...i would agree that by and large the students were similar though.

all i would reiterate is don't go for the money. figure out where you think you'd do the best (since apparently both schools are good for recruiting)--and go there. if you end up at a place you hate, you'll inevitably end up doing worse. if you're truly indifferent (and in your gut feel you would be just as successful at either place), then go with the money.

so yeah, go with your gut. you're fortunately in the place of not really having any bad options here.

4/30/08

One tremendous advantage that Dartmouth has is the D-Plan. It is a quarter system, and students can choose which terms they want to be on campus. My junior winter I, and a ton of my friends, interned at banks. There is little competition from other students, and it makes getting a top internship even easier.

5/3/08

Williams grad here - currently at a BB in IB coverage. Blackmahi's description is pretty accurate. Williams and Dartmouth are both target schools on Wall Street. There is heavy IB and consulting recruitment at Williams (and I believe the same for Dartmouth). MS, JPM, and MER are just a few of the big IB recruiters. I'm biased, but I've found the Williams alumni network incredibly strong. I've heard about the Tyng scholarship - congrats! Either school you pick will offer great career opportunities - good luck wherever you go.

5/3/08

I'll tell you what I've heard from friends at both schools so take it with a grain of salt.

From a recruiting perspective, I'd go to Dartmouth but there are big differences between the schools that you should consider. Curriculum, greek life, environment, etc are different so it might make sense to factor those things in. That said, Dartmouth has more alumni on the street and the alumni are super loyal, especially if you're in certain frats. Also, because of the way the semesters are set up, you're required to intern somewhere or do research during the fall or spring during one of the years. A bunch of banks and consulting firms hire for these off-cycle internships and since no other school has a system like that, there is not as much competition for the slots. Then again, a higher percentage of Dartmouth's class is trying to do finance/consulting. I still think Dartmouth has more OCR though. I know that Bridgewater takes a lot of Dartmouth kids and I doubt they recruit at all at Williams.

No idea which one would look better in Asia. I'd suspect that a lot of people in Asian countries haven't heard of either school.

5/3/08

I can't speak for Williams, but I'd be happy to provide some perspective on Dartmouth regarding recruiting.

Dartmouth gets pretty good recruiting, but there are also a solid # of firms that don't recruit at Dartmouth b/c it is too isolated and far away. Having gone through recruiting, these are Dartmouth's core firms (in that not only do they do OCR, but the school has a really solid relationship with these firms): McKinsey, Bain, OW FS, OW GMC, Bain Capital, Parthenon, GS, MS, JPM, BX M&A, Citi, Google, Bridgewater, BAML, and DB.

On the positive, Bain, OW FS, Parthenon, BX, Morgan Stanley, and Bridgewater LOVE Dartmouth kids. Frankly, I have no idea why. OW FS, BX M&A, MS, and Bridgewater all recruit at Dartmouth over sophomore summer for junior winter internships. Although BX M&A and MS will only take like 2-3 kids from each class, Bridgewater took 12 kids my year, and OW FS took around 6 kids. Getting these internships are really, really competitive though.

On the negative, some firms simply don't like Dartmouth kids. BCG, Booz & Company, Barclays Capital, Greenhill, A.T. Kearney, and Deloitte S&O are some of the good firms that come to mind. Another silent killer is that NO F500 (P&G, GE, Apple, etc.) companies recruit at Dartmouth b/c it is so far away. F500 fldps are generally the 2nd best option if you can't get IB or consulting, which only the top 10-15% will get. You will have to network HARD to get a F500 interview. To put into perspective, I got interviews at almost every elite consulting firm except McKinsey and I couldn't score an interview with GE FMP b/c they didn't recruit on campus.

Going off what Newspeak said, I will say probably the most important thing at Dartmouth is being in the "right" fraternities that have really strong alumni networks. There is a kid with a 3.1 GPA in my frat that's working at MS M&A as an SA b/c a MD is an alum of my frat.

PM me if you have any questions.

5/3/08

Therock555, do you by any chance know which fraternities at Dartmouth had the strongest alumni networks for finance and consulting?

5/3/08

Therock555, do you by any chance know which fraternities at Dartmouth had the strongest alumni networks for finance and consulting?

5/3/08

Ibank12121:

Therock555, do you by any chance know which fraternities at Dartmouth had the strongest alumni networks for finance and consulting?


bump, i'd like to know too
5/3/08

why are all the 'smart' high school people so dumb...dude where did you get money? that's honestly more important than anything you mentioned?

My drinkin' problem left today, she packed up all her bags and walked away.

5/3/08

Kenny Powers:
why are all the 'smart' high school people so dumb...dude where did you get money? that's honestly more important than anything you mentioned?

I agree. However, I do think Dartmouth is the better bet looking at it from an Asian perspective.

5/3/08

Go Dartmouth.

Also, I'm curious, does anyone know the best schools for Greenhill, Evercore, & Centerview? I know that Lazard goes pretty much everywhere, but I don't know anybody in those 3 elites, and was just curious where the majority come from.

5/3/08

I'm going to say make your decision based on fit. I didn't go to either, but from what I've heard, you will have good recruiting at either.

5/3/08

I know that the three mentioned recruit at Michigan (Ross), though Greenhill is for Chicago office. Evercore and Centerview come on campus for New York at Michigan.

5/3/08

Harvard, Wharton & Columbia are probably the only schools that get all those 3 ocr. I do not know about the others.

Best Response
5/3/08

OhItsThatGuy:
I'm a HS senior that got into both Dartmouth and Williams (along with UVa and Wake Forest). I saw a thread from '08 about another senior in the same dilemma, but I feel things may've changed these past 5 years (and will continue to change over the next 4 years), on top of the fact that I don't have that kickass Tyang Scholarship to sweeten Williams. But yeah, I'm interested in knowing which does better in IB/consulting recruiting.
Feel like D, just for being an Ivy, gets a lot more recruiting, but Williams - given its 50% smaller size and less IB/consulting competition - comes out a bit on top, along with the fact that you just can't beat an LAC education. Socially, both schools are great for me, in different ways, of course.
Also curious about how both schools are viewed for foreign roles (particularly Asia, though I have a feel it's obviously going to be the Ivy).

What do you guys think?

First things first - pick your college for the right reasons, it will be the best time of your life, you'll grow as a human being and you'll make important connections there. UVA and Wake Forest are very very different from Williams and Dartmouth. UVA and Wake Forest are going to give you more of a classic "college experience." Dartmouth and Williams are both pretty rural/isolated. Have you visited the schools? You really should. Fuck wake forest, but unless you've really thought this through, your question should be Williams, Dartmouth, or UVA, not Williams or Dartmouth. Do yourself a favor and don't pick a school based on what you think will place best on Wall street. UVA, Dartmouth, and Williams all do fine, and if that's your goal going into college, I'm sure you'll get your shot.

In the words of the genius parents of the illustrious John Seo "the devil has come to you as a prostitute and asked you to lie down with her." You're way to young to fuck that hooker. Go to the college that you want, get good grades and gun for internships every summer, pm me and we can talk about those. You'll be fine. Worry about growing as a person, not about fitting yourself into the finance box. It's too early for that game.

To answer your question, you throw an interesting wrench into the works with the asia thing. I'm south asian, not east, but my guess is that UVA gets more respect in east asia than Dartmouth or Williams. Sure Dartmouth is an Ivy, but the chinese aren't going to know or care. They know three ivies - Yale, Harvard, Princeton and after that it's the bigger publc ivy type schools or legit research universities tha they respect - Michigan, Berkley, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Nobody has heard of Dartmouth or Williams in China. A Georgia Tech or UVA will be better known and better respected.

That being said - I'm Indian not Chinese, but the fact that you even had to ask this question implies to me that you're not capable of playing the game in China. Like... even first generation Chinese who are as fluent as fluent can be are outsiders there, and if you were one of those you would have known the answer to your question before you asked it. China is an impenetrable culture - they look at the non-chinese as a bunch of monkeys that perform for their amusement.

I lived in HK for 4-5 years growing up, and seeing this guy (link below) was what made me decide to never trust the Chinese again. His name is Dashan, he's Canadian if I remember correctly. He's sort of respected as the non-chinese person that is best at speaking Chinese. This guy has dedicated his life to learning about this culture, his Chinese is basically perfect. He's sort of a famous comedian in China, and do you know what his shtick is? Saying children's tongue twisters. Oh how the Chinese laugh... "Dashan's Chinese is so good it's almost like he's Chinese!" Guy that's dedicated his life to learning chinese, best a westerner has ever done - being laughed at like a fucking monkey when he tries to say something a chinese 8 year old could easily do. Plus those fucking psychos keep trying to steal worthless land from us. It's weird.

Anyways, American kid. Even if your mommy and daddy tell you China is the wave of the future, it isn't for you. Learn spanish, german, or french. You'll never do business in Chinese. They got a little saying comparing my home country of India with China - both are corrupt shit holes run by good old boys networks. In India, you bully the good old boys off your turf. in China, you hire your own good old boys. That's the way it is. You're never gonna be one of those good old boys kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEaqY4s310o

5/3/08

NYCbandar:
OhItsThatGuy:
I'm a HS senior that got into both Dartmouth and Williams (along with UVa and Wake Forest). I saw a thread from '08 about another senior in the same dilemma, but I feel things may've changed these past 5 years (and will continue to change over the next 4 years), on top of the fact that I don't have that kickass Tyang Scholarship to sweeten Williams. But yeah, I'm interested in knowing which does better in IB/consulting recruiting.
Feel like D, just for being an Ivy, gets a lot more recruiting, but Williams - given its 50% smaller size and less IB/consulting competition - comes out a bit on top, along with the fact that you just can't beat an LAC education. Socially, both schools are great for me, in different ways, of course.
Also curious about how both schools are viewed for foreign roles (particularly Asia, though I have a feel it's obviously going to be the Ivy).

What do you guys think?

First things first - pick your college for the right reasons, it will be the best time of your life, you'll grow as a human being and you'll make important connections there. UVA and Wake Forest are very very different from Williams and Dartmouth. UVA and Wake Forest are going to give you more of a classic "college experience." Dartmouth and Williams are both pretty rural/isolated. Have you visited the schools? You really should. Fuck wake forest, but unless you've really thought this through, your question should be Williams, Dartmouth, or UVA, not Williams or Dartmouth. Do yourself a favor and don't pick a school based on what you think will place best on Wall street. UVA, Dartmouth, and Williams all do fine, and if that's your goal going into college, I'm sure you'll get your shot.

In the words of the genius parents of the illustrious John Seo "the devil has come to you as a prostitute and asked you to lie down with her." You're way to young to fuck that hooker. Go to the college that you want, get good grades and gun for internships every summer, pm me and we can talk about those. You'll be fine. Worry about growing as a person, not about fitting yourself into the finance box. It's too early for that game.

To answer your question, you throw an interesting wrench into the works with the asia thing. I'm south asian, not east, but my guess is that UVA gets more respect in east asia than Dartmouth or Williams. Sure Dartmouth is an Ivy, but the chinese aren't going to know or care. They know three ivies - Yale, Harvard, Princeton and after that it's the bigger publc ivy type schools or legit research universities tha they respect - Michigan, Berkley, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Nobody has heard of Dartmouth or Williams in China. A Georgia Tech or UVA will be better known and better respected.

That being said - I'm Indian not Chinese, but the fact that you even had to ask this question implies to me that you're not capable of playing the game in China. Like... even first generation Chinese who are as fluent as fluent can be are outsiders there, and if you were one of those you would have known the answer to your question before you asked it. China is an impenetrable culture - they look at the non-chinese as a bunch of monkeys that perform for their amusement.

I lived in HK for 4-5 years growing up, and seeing this guy (link below) was what made me decide to never trust the Chinese again. His name is Dashan, he's Canadian if I remember correctly. He's sort of respected as the non-chinese person that is best at speaking Chinese. This guy has dedicated his life to learning about this culture, his Chinese is basically perfect. He's sort of a famous comedian in China, and do you know what his shtick is? Saying children's tongue twisters. Oh how the Chinese laugh... "Dashan's Chinese is so good it's almost like he's Chinese!" Guy that's dedicated his life to learning chinese, best a westerner has ever done - being laughed at like a fucking monkey when he tries to say something a chinese 8 year old could easily do. Plus those fucking psychos keep trying to steal worthless land from us. It's weird.

Anyways, American kid. Even if your mommy and daddy tell you China is the wave of the future, it isn't for you. Learn spanish, german, or french. You'll never do business in Chinese. They got a little saying comparing my home country of India with China - both are corrupt shit holes run by good old boys networks. In India, you bully the good old boys off your turf. in China, you hire your own good old boys. That's the way it is. You're never gonna be one of those good old boys kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEaqY4s310o[/quote]

strong post

5/3/08

NYCbandar:
OhItsThatGuy:
I'm a HS senior that got into both Dartmouth and Williams (along with UVa and Wake Forest). I saw a thread from '08 about another senior in the same dilemma, but I feel things may've changed these past 5 years (and will continue to change over the next 4 years), on top of the fact that I don't have that kickass Tyang Scholarship to sweeten Williams. But yeah, I'm interested in knowing which does better in IB/consulting recruiting.
Feel like D, just for being an Ivy, gets a lot more recruiting, but Williams - given its 50% smaller size and less IB/consulting competition - comes out a bit on top, along with the fact that you just can't beat an LAC education. Socially, both schools are great for me, in different ways, of course.
Also curious about how both schools are viewed for foreign roles (particularly Asia, though I have a feel it's obviously going to be the Ivy).

What do you guys think?

First things first - pick your college for the right reasons, it will be the best time of your life, you'll grow as a human being and you'll make important connections there. UVA and Wake Forest are very very different from Williams and Dartmouth. UVA and Wake Forest are going to give you more of a classic "college experience." Dartmouth and Williams are both pretty rural/isolated. Have you visited the schools? You really should. Fuck wake forest, but unless you've really thought this through, your question should be Williams, Dartmouth, or UVA, not Williams or Dartmouth. Do yourself a favor and don't pick a school based on what you think will place best on Wall street. UVA, Dartmouth, and Williams all do fine, and if that's your goal going into college, I'm sure you'll get your shot.

In the words of the genius parents of the illustrious John Seo "the devil has come to you as a prostitute and asked you to lie down with her." You're way to young to fuck that hooker. Go to the college that you want, get good grades and gun for internships every summer, pm me and we can talk about those. You'll be fine. Worry about growing as a person, not about fitting yourself into the finance box. It's too early for that game.

To answer your question, you throw an interesting wrench into the works with the asia thing. I'm south asian, not east, but my guess is that UVA gets more respect in east asia than Dartmouth or Williams. Sure Dartmouth is an Ivy, but the chinese aren't going to know or care. They know three ivies - Yale, Harvard, Princeton and after that it's the bigger publc ivy type schools or legit research universities tha they respect - Michigan, Berkley, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Nobody has heard of Dartmouth or Williams in China. A Georgia Tech or UVA will be better known and better respected.

That being said - I'm Indian not Chinese, but the fact that you even had to ask this question implies to me that you're not capable of playing the game in China. Like... even first generation Chinese who are as fluent as fluent can be are outsiders there, and if you were one of those you would have known the answer to your question before you asked it. China is an impenetrable culture - they look at the non-chinese as a bunch of monkeys that perform for their amusement.

I lived in HK for 4-5 years growing up, and seeing this guy (link below) was what made me decide to never trust the Chinese again. His name is Dashan, he's Canadian if I remember correctly. He's sort of respected as the non-chinese person that is best at speaking Chinese. This guy has dedicated his life to learning about this culture, his Chinese is basically perfect. He's sort of a famous comedian in China, and do you know what his shtick is? Saying children's tongue twisters. Oh how the Chinese laugh... "Dashan's Chinese is so good it's almost like he's Chinese!" Guy that's dedicated his life to learning chinese, best a westerner has ever done - being laughed at like a fucking monkey when he tries to say something a chinese 8 year old could easily do. Plus those fucking psychos keep trying to steal worthless land from us. It's weird.

Anyways, American kid. Even if your mommy and daddy tell you China is the wave of the future, it isn't for you. Learn spanish, german, or french. You'll never do business in Chinese. They got a little saying comparing my home country of India with China - both are corrupt shit holes run by good old boys networks. In India, you bully the good old boys off your turf. in China, you hire your own good old boys. That's the way it is. You're never gonna be one of those good old boys kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEaqY4s310o[/quote]

Good post, this man speaks the truth OP. Although I love North Carolina and WF is an absolutely amazing fun place, you should pick between UVA, Dartmouth, and Williams. Like Bandar said, visit all 3 schools if possible then decide. They're all very different.

And also listen to what he says about China. The place is a cesspool, literally. The only thing dirtier there than the business is the air. I was in Beijing for a while and the air is so polluted I would go inside from outdoors and smell the smog in my clothes and hair. In fact, my hair even thinned out. Point is, wouldn't waste your time there. And besides the 10% yoy growth thing is propped up a lot by their government, and that will end. If you have to try a BRIC country, do Brazil. If not there, India.

My drinkin' problem left today, she packed up all her bags and walked away.

5/3/08

NYCbandar:
OhItsThatGuy:
I'm a HS senior that got into both Dartmouth and Williams (along with UVa and Wake Forest). I saw a thread from '08 about another senior in the same dilemma, but I feel things may've changed these past 5 years (and will continue to change over the next 4 years), on top of the fact that I don't have that kickass Tyang Scholarship to sweeten Williams. But yeah, I'm interested in knowing which does better in IB/consulting recruiting.
Feel like D, just for being an Ivy, gets a lot more recruiting, but Williams - given its 50% smaller size and less IB/consulting competition - comes out a bit on top, along with the fact that you just can't beat an LAC education. Socially, both schools are great for me, in different ways, of course.
Also curious about how both schools are viewed for foreign roles (particularly Asia, though I have a feel it's obviously going to be the Ivy).

What do you guys think?

First things first - pick your college for the right reasons, it will be the best time of your life, you'll grow as a human being and you'll make important connections there. UVA and Wake Forest are very very different from Williams and Dartmouth. UVA and Wake Forest are going to give you more of a classic "college experience." Dartmouth and Williams are both pretty rural/isolated. Have you visited the schools? You really should. Fuck wake forest, but unless you've really thought this through, your question should be Williams, Dartmouth, or UVA, not Williams or Dartmouth. Do yourself a favor and don't pick a school based on what you think will place best on Wall street. UVA, Dartmouth, and Williams all do fine, and if that's your goal going into college, I'm sure you'll get your shot.

In the words of the genius parents of the illustrious John Seo "the devil has come to you as a prostitute and asked you to lie down with her." You're way to young to fuck that hooker. Go to the college that you want, get good grades and gun for internships every summer, pm me and we can talk about those. You'll be fine. Worry about growing as a person, not about fitting yourself into the finance box. It's too early for that game.

To answer your question, you throw an interesting wrench into the works with the asia thing. I'm south asian, not east, but my guess is that UVA gets more respect in east asia than Dartmouth or Williams. Sure Dartmouth is an Ivy, but the chinese aren't going to know or care. They know three ivies - Yale, Harvard, Princeton and after that it's the bigger publc ivy type schools or legit research universities tha they respect - Michigan, Berkley, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Nobody has heard of Dartmouth or Williams in China. A Georgia Tech or UVA will be better known and better respected.

That being said - I'm Indian not Chinese, but the fact that you even had to ask this question implies to me that you're not capable of playing the game in China. Like... even first generation Chinese who are as fluent as fluent can be are outsiders there, and if you were one of those you would have known the answer to your question before you asked it. China is an impenetrable culture - they look at the non-chinese as a bunch of monkeys that perform for their amusement.

I lived in HK for 4-5 years growing up, and seeing this guy (link below) was what made me decide to never trust the Chinese again. His name is Dashan, he's Canadian if I remember correctly. He's sort of respected as the non-chinese person that is best at speaking Chinese. This guy has dedicated his life to learning about this culture, his Chinese is basically perfect. He's sort of a famous comedian in China, and do you know what his shtick is? Saying children's tongue twisters. Oh how the Chinese laugh... "Dashan's Chinese is so good it's almost like he's Chinese!" Guy that's dedicated his life to learning chinese, best a westerner has ever done - being laughed at like a fucking monkey when he tries to say something a chinese 8 year old could easily do. Plus those fucking psychos keep trying to steal worthless land from us. It's weird.

Anyways, American kid. Even if your mommy and daddy tell you China is the wave of the future, it isn't for you. Learn spanish, german, or french. You'll never do business in Chinese. They got a little saying comparing my home country of India with China - both are corrupt shit holes run by good old boys networks. In India, you bully the good old boys off your turf. in China, you hire your own good old boys. That's the way it is. You're never gonna be one of those good old boys kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEaqY4s310o[/quote]

I still respect and would do India over China anytime from whatever little I know about the 2 countries.

5/3/08

NYCbandar:
]
To answer your question, you throw an interesting wrench into the works with the asia thing. I'm south asian, not east, but my guess is that UVA gets more respect in east asia than Dartmouth or Williams. Sure Dartmouth is an Ivy, but the chinese aren't going to know or care. They know three ivies - Yale, Harvard, Princeton and after that it's the bigger publc ivy type schools or legit research universities tha they respect - Michigan, Berkley, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Nobody has heard of Dartmouth or Williams in China. A Georgia Tech or UVA will be better known and better respected.

I'm from East Asia, and IMO there's no way UVA is more recognized than Dartmouth there. You're right in that in Eas Asia Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Berkeley, and Michigan. I'd maybe throw in Columbia there as well. But Dartmouth is an Ivy, a top ranked school, and a "legit research university." As more and more Chinese students go abroad, Dartmouth, along with schools like UChicago, Brown, Northwestern, are increasingly recognized.

These schools fall into one or both of two categories. One, the school has a very strong UG program (USN top 10) or is an Ivy. Two, the school has prestigious graduate programs overall. The reason Berkeley and Michigan are so highly regarded (especially Berkeley) is because they have extremely good graduate programs overall, not necessarily because it's a "public ivy" (not all of which have such good track records in terms of graduate programs).

And it makes no sense to compare Georgia Tech to UVA. The reason tech schools get such high name value in Asia is because they're tech schools; there are a TON of Chinese and Korean students at both undergrad and grad levels.

You're right that Williams doesn't much recognition. LACs do poorly in that regard in East Asia...

5/3/08

pnb2002:
NYCbandar:
]
To answer your question, you throw an interesting wrench into the works with the asia thing. I'm south asian, not east, but my guess is that UVA gets more respect in east asia than Dartmouth or Williams. Sure Dartmouth is an Ivy, but the chinese aren't going to know or care. They know three ivies - Yale, Harvard, Princeton and after that it's the bigger publc ivy type schools or legit research universities tha they respect - Michigan, Berkley, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Nobody has heard of Dartmouth or Williams in China. A Georgia Tech or UVA will be better known and better respected.

I'm from East Asia, and IMO there's no way UVA is more recognized than Dartmouth there. You're right in that in Eas Asia Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Berkeley, and Michigan. I'd maybe throw in Columbia there as well. But Dartmouth is an Ivy, a top ranked school, and a "legit research university." As more and more Chinese students go abroad, Dartmouth, along with schools like UChicago, Brown, Northwestern, are increasingly recognized.

These schools fall into one or both of two categories. One, the school has a very strong UG program (USN top 10) or is an Ivy. Two, the school has prestigious graduate programs overall. The reason Berkeley and Michigan are so highly regarded (especially Berkeley) is because they have extremely good graduate programs overall, not necessarily because it's a "public ivy" (not all of which have such good track records in terms of graduate programs).

And it makes no sense to compare Georgia Tech to UVA. The reason tech schools get such high name value in Asia is because they're tech schools; there are a TON of Chinese and Korean students at both undergrad and grad levels.

You're right that Williams doesn't much recognition. LACs do poorly in that regard in East Asia...

I defer to your superior knowledge. I was basing most of my comment off my time in HK where the lower tier ivies were basically unknown while Berkeley, Cal Tech, and Michigan were highly respected. Admittedly that was a good 10 years ago. I think my main thesis is more that what's considered a top US school by Americans and what's considered a top US school by Chinese aren't the same thing than any commentary on individual schools being good or bad. Glad to hear that the lower tier ivies are starting to get some recognition in the big C btw, I went to one after all.

5/3/08

Thanks for the feedback guys. I realize now that this dilemma looks somewhat superficial, but job recruiting - just like I do with dorms, parties, girls, academics. - is an important part of college I really felt I should put some thought into, just so my future self doesn't curse my present self. Don't mean to come off as someone who's choosing an undergrad solely for OCR, but do want to make an informed decision at the end of the day (really in love with both schools... it's just coming down to small things here and there pushing me one way or another between Williams/Dartmouth).

@therock555 - I never knew F500s and the like don't recruit D grads. Does that mean you either get an offer from one of the firms you mentioned or just end up with nothing? Sorry if I'm sounding a bit naive/stupid here, honestly never struck me that recruiting 12 people from a 1000 person class is 'a lot'.

@NYCbander - Never quite been called "American boy" lol... I happen to be South Asian (Indian American) myself, and a very proud Indian at that haha. By Asia I really meant something more like Singapore,India,Dubai, and Pakistan(jk). Although born/brought up here, India's a second home to me honestly, which I guess is also no less naive, but I do have close ties/desire to get involved there. I know from news stories and interactions with Chinese foreign students enough to know that the Chinese are a treacherous folk to deal with; never meant to include anything about the middlekingdom.

Again, sorry if I'm coming off as a dbag or something! just trying to gain some knowledge here

"Banking institutions are more dangerous... than standing armies." - TJ

5/3/08
5/3/08
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