HBS versus Stanford GSB, cant decide
Hello everybody! I have gotten into the lucky predicament of deciding between Stanford and HBS and have to decide this week. I honestly can't decide between the two.
I'm interested in private equity and entrepreneurship (non-tech). If anybody can offer any help in deciding, I would be grateful.
If anybody has any questions for their own app please ask and I will answer to the best of my knowledge.
Thank you all
If you are serious, please pm me. I went to HBS and work as a resume/writing coach at the GSB, and I can talk to you off-line about some of similarities and differences between the two.
why don't you write a post about it so that everyone can benefit?
(not that everyone could identify with the options here, but still)
Will be glad to...right now on the phone without spellcheck, so it will have to be tonight.Was hesitant to opine to the OP because it was like his or her first post with so little info that I wasn't sure it was for real. Just being (overly) cautious.
Agree.
Congrats man! Depends what you want to do afterwards. I would go to HBS.
Harvard if PE. Stanford if you want to run your own business or work on a start-up.
Thanks for this. I've heard this routinely but I wonder if this is actually true or not. I have seen a lot of PE guys out of Stanford on the west coast and I've also seen a large amount of entrepreneurial folks from Harvard.
Do you think you could flesh out your answer a bit more? PE Harvard and startup Stanford has become so cliche I wonder if it's 100% true or if its really up to the person (plus Harvard would probably throw more money at you since less entrepreneurs).
Gave you a SB so now you have 10 bananas and can PM.
Don't have any experience with this decision, but I feel like Harvard is the better bet in terms of PE/other opportunities (and if you want to work in a major city like NY or London). If you want tech or do a start up, choose Stanford. You mentioned culture, but I feel like each class is so diverse that you can always find "your tribe" whichever school you attend. Your experience is what YOU make of it. Either way you can't go wrong.
I think it would be really great if you gave more information about your background, why you are going to business school, and what you would like to do in the future. Also, include a more in depth write up on how you studied and prepared for the GMAT (like they do on GMAT prep). You got into both Stanford and Harvard and I assume you have an amazing GMAT score.
Honest answer: Flip a coin.
I second this. When the coin is in the air, you will know which side you want it to land on.
HBS. Most people who pick stanford are those who are interested in tech/startups and/or have a strong preference to work in california.
HBS, there is a wider network, everywhere from consulting to finance to corporate.
I agree that Harvard has a much more extensive network but Stanford is adamant that they're much stronger (i.e. HBS alums are everywhere but they wont call you back whereas Stanford alums will bend over backward to help you out). Again I'm basing this on stereotypes so anyone please feel free to let me know if youve had a different experience.
Just as an admitted student, I have been able to get in touch with every HBS alum I have reached out, regardless of what industry. Then again, it depends entirely on the person you are reaching out to. Still waiting to hear back from Dimon...
I'd wait until next cycle and apply to Hamburger U. It's leagues ahead in terms of exclusivity and prestige.
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/mcdonalds-hamburger-university-high…
+1
Troll me baby
Yes, I'm serious. I don't know what anybody would get out of trolling for this. I've been a longtime WSO lurker but never registered. If any future applicants have any questions I can try and help as best I can.
Hamburger U and coin flip answer gets points for humor. The troll comments make me sad - you guys must either get a lot of trolls or are a bit jaded.
In all seriousness I feel that Stanford may be a better fit culture-wise but HBS is a powerful brand and I wonder if I would immensely regret bypassing the opportunity to have it on my resume.
I cannot PM because this is a brand new account. I do agree with the other poster that it would be beneficial to have it public so others could learn as well.
edit: the more I think about it the coin flip answer is pretty good. You would probably be able to gauge it based on disappointment with one choice. But really I am not leaning either way right now which is why I've succumbed to asking internet strangers to help on important life decisions. ;)
Coin flip is not funny.
http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/01/31/would-you-let-a-coin-toss-decide…
Interesting. Thanks for this.
You say you're interested in PE. Are you currently working in PE? If so, you should already have an idea of where you want to go. If not, you probably won't be able to get into PE anyway.
I say you base this decision On whether or not you like cold weather.
Thanks. Everyone says this about PE but I take it with a grain of salt. If I had listened to everyone who told me I would have a hard time even getting into Chicago, I never would have applied to any programs. If you want something bad enough you can get it. Just my opinion.
Interested in this statement. People thought you wouldn't get into Booth but you got accepted to HBS and GSB? Are you a URM (sorry, have to ask)? You have a very unique work experience / story? Armed services background?
Thanks for sharing. I think I'd choose Stanford -- no good reason, just seems like it'd be a better fit for me, culture-wise.
Congratulations on the choice manTgreyman, it is rarer and rarer, as the two schools diverge in culture. In my own experience I see fewer and fewer US-based folks who have the choice.
In any case, for both schools, it's all about culture. And the weather. If you want to do PE, you will have your chance at either school, and the Stanford brand and connections will help you as much as Harvard. The Stanford Career Management Center will also do its very best to help -- the philosophy of faculty and staff there is to be of service to the student community. Of course Harvard has more PE types in terms of numbers, but it was never about numbers anyway, right?
In both schools you will be surrounded by really excellent, interesting people. You will make friends for life. You will write home to your mom or dad and say you cannot believe you are in a learning team or squad with an astronaut, race car driver, gay NBA player, or the nicest person on the planet. They are all there. And they will challenge you.
I think Harvard is more intense and just plain more east coast. Walk around the campus, which is expansive, and you will feel like you are at an ivy league institution. They still grade on a curve and grades do matter -- possibly a bit more than at Stanford. But remember, to get there, all those GSB students were pretty much honors students in undergrad; they appear more laid back but still have a competitive spirit about achievement.
As for entrepreneurship, being in the heart of Silicon Valley may offer you an advantage, because it's in the DNA of the school and the surrounding area. Everyone everywhere seems to want to do a startup, and Stanford does make it easy. I think Harvard is playing catch-up in entrepreneurship to Stanford. Having said that, HBS students are required to do their own startup through the FIELD program, a practical way to test out whether entrepreneurship is what you really want to do. Stanford may have more joint-degree students in stuff like education and environmental science, while HBS has more students doing joint degrees with the Kennedy School and law school, FWIW.
Brandwise, you cannot go wrong. I chose HBS over GSB a zillion years ago, but that's because I grew up on the east coast and always heard Harvard, Harvard, Harvard. I also wanted to stay on the east coast. It's reasons like that, more than anything else, that will make your decision for you. If you really think that you are more comfortable with Stanford, then there's really no reason to put yourself through 2 years at a school that you "think" is better. It's not.
That's for starters... glad to keep chatting.... congrats again.
Betsy at it again. Love the spiel.
Personally I would be more comfortable in a small class size and a tight knit community and hence would go GSB. If you like a large class size and a far broader alumni base then go HBS. I do not think there is any difference in prestige between HBS and GSB around the world.
wow awesome "predicament" you are in
I, just like everyone above me, am so jealous of your "predicament".
Go to Harvard.
OP, would you mind telling us a bit about your background (pre-MBA career, UG institution, GPA, GMAT score, extra-curriculars, etc)? I'm sure everyone here would like to be in your particular situation, and maybe hearing about your background might help some of us. Also, what do you think set you apart from other applicants such that you gained admission to both HBS and Stanford GSB?
To add my 2 cents to your original question, I feel like Harvard Business School is one of those few things in life that you just don't turn down if offered to you. But as others have said, you can't go wrong in this decision. Congrats and good luck.
Stanford. Better VC opportunities, smaller class to make a real network, great for e'ship, great weather.
I'd probably choose between location. Can't go wrong at either school so take that out of the equation.
You lucky guy. I'm totally biased I admit, but HBS is the way to go.
How important are intangibles such as "culture" and "fit" anyway? If you were good enough to get into both Harvard AND Stanford, then you're good enough to thrive in just about any circumstance. There's no wrong decision here and you won't regret choosing either, so fret not.
Personally, I'd pick HBS just because hands down, there's no better brand. No matter what career you're interested in (or later become interested in), you will get it there provided you don't go in front of recruiters with zero prep, a sense of entitlement, and a lax work ethic. Even if HBS were really behind Stanford by a good amount on entrepreneurship, is there really any doubt that the network and resources you get there would immediately close any competitive advantage gaps in your particular case? You're struggling to choose between a Ferrari and a Lamborghini.
Look forward 30 yrs. When people at the dinner table ask where you went to school-which do you feel prouder saying? Which would you regret turning down, even if only a little bit? Which visit did you prefer? which do you picture yourself coming back to for alumni weekends and speeches? I take it you've started talking to potential classmates. Which do you find yourself liking or wanting to hang out with more? I know I sound like Don Draper right now, but this really is an emotional decision. You will do better at whichever place you're happiest. Just understand that there is no real difference in the end, and so let me decide for you: go to Harvard
My 2 cents for the OP: Both are incredible schools, and will set you up for whatever it is you want to do going forward. I would say that it's probably wise to narrow down your preferred choice of career as soon as possible, as saying "entrepreneurship or PE" won't sound great when you start networking week 1 of school, as they are too far apart. Sit in on lectures, speak with classmates, faculty, etc. Most importantly, go spend a long weekend at each school, and immerse yourself in each campus and their surroundings. I know a guy who was accepted into HBS, was over the moon about it, but when he went back to visit (with the stress of getting in now lifted off his shoulders and looking at his choices with a fresh set of eyes), found that a lot of the students seemed very pretentious. As a result, he didn't see himself as a fit, and ended up going elsewhere. He didn't go to Stanford GSB, but he's doing just fine.
Looking through the most recent comments, I see there's a lot about the Harvard brand, and I want to throw a few things out there. Ask anyone who has had any relation to Stanford if they feel the Harvard brand is better, and they will just laugh. I even had a GSB graduate ask me, "did you go to Harvard because you didn't get into Stanford?" So yes, it's ok to turn down Harvard. You'll also be able to dine out on that fact for life, if you want to.
Especially as the world becomes flatter and flatter -- those who need to know realize that Stanford GSB is rigorous and elite. If you need to impress everyone, then Harvard works wonders. I know this from having worked all over Asia for about 10 years.
State of Trance brings up something else that hasn't been discussed: class size
Stanford's class size is smaller, particularly in the required first-quarter course like Critical Analytical Thinking, which is a seminar of 16 students plus a full tenured professor. Harvard's first-year required curriculum is unique in that it is 85 students in one classroom for the entire first year. It's a wonderful laboratory and it works.
Speaking of classes -- another thing to consider is the case method. To me, that weighs on the side of HBS. GSB has case classes and very active discussions in class, and does require the professor to be like an orchestra conductor, but HBS's dependence on the case method as a pedagogical tool really differentiates the classroom experience.
Finally, here's a practical element, has either tried to lure you with financial aid? It's expensive and all that global travel during breaks adds up. You'll pay it back for sure, but still, does either appear to want you more?
I'm jelly. I don't think I would ever get the opportunity to be in your position. IF i could choose though, I would go with HBS.
This might help you decide... http://goo.gl/YJu5O
Didn't read all the posts so might have missed this, but what are you looking to do in the future? I'd imagine you had to write about why business school was the right decision for you now and what you hoped to gain from it.
Also, as someone who grew up on the west coast and now lives on the east coast, the two are very different and people who choose to settle down in one place or the other usually have very specific reasons for doing so.
Separately, what are your stats (work experience, school, GPA, GMAT score, etc.)?
Congrats on getting into both - at this point it matters more how much you make use of either school's resources and the effort you put into learning than what either school can "do" for you (i.e. an MBA from either school won't be worth much if you expect the degrees to automatically open doors for you and bring you job offers, etc - know plenty of ppl from both schools whose careers haven't exactly brought them much due to graduating at the wrong time/ bad luck, lack of focus or just plain laziness).
That said, HBS definitely has a larger network by virtue of class size, but my personal observation is that Stanford GSB network is much "tighter"... i.e. less flaky and more willing to help. Also, if you want to end up on the West Coast / SF long term, think Stanford is the better choice. Otherwise you won't go wrong with either.
Wow, I am completely floored by all of the comments. Thank you guys so much for giving me some of your time. Anyone can feel free to PM me (thank you Gekko21 for the SB) if they have any questions or want to bounce ideas off me or have me read anything.
I think the key to being successful in the application process is focusing on what makes you different (if that different aspect is marketable anyway, nobody cares if you're different in a weird way). If you have a passion or want to have a future passion, start integrating it into your life now. Join a nonprofit or even better start your own. If you really are passionate about it you'll enjoy this anyway. And it shows leadership.
Be concise in your applications and make your story make sense. If I'm being superfluous and facetious: build an app. I met several people at both places who had done that (and I thought they were douchey but thats just me).
For the GMAT I did self-study and got a 750. I think the key is to figure out what your study style is. If you learn better in a classroom setting or with somebody teaching you you might as well take a class/tutor. If you do better teaching yourself DO NOT take the class route. I made the mistake of trying a GMAT class and I learned nothing because I zoned out. I ended up buying all of the official guides and the Manhattan GMAT set and it really helped. I taught myself everything in Manhattan, did several of their practice tests and only after this did I take the official practice tests from MBAcom (THESE ARE INCREDIBLY VALUABLE - DO NOT WASTE THEM AS A PRACTICE). All caps means I'm serious, yo.
For the people saying GMAT doesn't matter, I think this is BS. Work to get the best score you can possibly have. That way it will only be an asset to you. Try to get 730+ so the schools will not hurt their median/average if they take you. You want the GMAT to be a +.
Get good recommendations. I think these are just as if not more important than your essays. Try to make it easy for your recs and talk to them about what they should include.
And finally take all of this with a grain of salt. This is from my experience and what worked for me. I also think a hefty amount of luck helped me. The people who get into both places and think they are demi-gods are absolute morons. A girl mentioned to me that there's a guy charging $300 for his advice because he got into Stanford and HBS. DONT FALL FOR THIS SHIT. Honestly this pissed a lot of us off because it really cheapens the process and is taking advantage of people (I know I was desperate to learn anything about the experience). Also, I can tell you why he got in: He built an app that was "front page on iTunes." I know I'm ranting but I really, really, really am pissed about this guy and I know others are too.
If you want advice PM me and I will help as much as I can. But this will all come with my own biases.
And finally: Do NOT listen to the people out there who tell you you can't do something. Why people love to tell others what they can't do, I don't know, but it's shitty. Support one another. We're all just trying to get where we want to be. You never know what will happen unless you try. If you want to get into Stanford or Harvard or Wharton or Hamburger U, TRY. I met several people with different backgrounds (journalism, fam biz, chem engineers) who got into both H/S. I'm from general management but I started my own org that really relates to why I want an MBA and that made me different.
Be yourself and believe in yourself. And that's for everything.
edit: I had a 3.8 gpa from a STEM major, top 50 undergrad (non-ivy).
I will choose HBS. Simply because you never know where life will take you and having HBS on your brand will open doors with almost anyone.
I guess one of my friends needed to move back to Oklahoma and there was no company that refuse to interview him because of the HBS brand.
Stanford is just not in the same breadth yet.
Having said that I agree people who need to know will know. Problem is there might times in your life where you encounter people who don't know.
People who need to know the difference, will know (that there is none).
HBS will 'wow' more lay people. The class is bigger but the people are still similar.
Tech/west coast it makes sense to pick Stanford just because of proximity (though HBS will not limit you either). Otherwise it's a tossup IMO.
I have no advice, but just wanted to congratulate you on accomplishing what most, probably closer to all, could not: getting into both HBS and GSB.
I would say follow you heart and dont look back. You dont need this board for the answer! I will start at the GSB this fall. Hopefully I will see you there. :)
Your response fits my stereotype of a typical GSB'er haha
Congratulations!
Here’s my take. I've attended one of these schools and have had several close friends attend each (with a mix of preferences). I've tried my best to be unbiased.
HBS: Pros: - Incredible brand (amplified with the layperson and internationally) - More institutional resources - Larger alumni base - Easier access to networking/recruiting on east coast - Better teaching quality - Incredible campus - Better looking ladies (seriously, not being facetious) - Harvard is Harvard.
Cons: - No curriculum flexibility in first year - Grade disclosure - More competitive classroom culture - Harder to network on west coast
Pro/Con: - More structured environment - Larger class size (~900) - 100% case method instruction
Stanford: Pros: - Equal brand strength to employers you care about - Stronger entrepreneurial culture and greater access to Silicon Valley - Better placement into buyside jobs (85% of finance jobs are in PE/VC/HF/IM vs. 70% for HBS) (yes, the actual stats go against the conventional wisdom of this board.) - Smaller class size leads to tight-knit community - Slightly less competition for jobs from classmates (due to smaller class size) - Grade non-disclosure policy (this is actually a pretty big deal for quality of life during school) - More curriculum flexibility - California weather - Division I sports affiliation
Cons: - Smaller alumni base, particularly on east coast. - Harder to network on east coast - Lower brand strength internationally
Pro/Con: - More laid back culture - Smaller class size (~400) - Mix of lecture and case instruction
The bottom line is that there's really not much difference in the career opportunities out of either. But they do have a different cultural vibe (as much from the institutions as from the students) and being on opposite sides of the country can influence where you end up after school. So I think it comes down to cultural fit and geography.
And despite the HBS bias that seems to exist on this board (and among the population in general), the fact of the matter is that there are about 200 students each year that are dual HBS/Stanford admits, and they split about 100 to each school.
Amazingly thoughtful answer.
+1. SB'd.
which school has hotter girls
I'm wondering which one you ended up choosing? Would be fascinated to know.
OP tell us where you are!
So the GSB places a higher percentage of its candidates on the buyside than HBS. Does this mean that it would be "easier" for a Stanford student to secure a job in NYC on the sell-side as there is less competition for those jobs? Or would it be more difficult as the GSB alumni base is weaker on the East Coast?
In fact, how does Stanford students recruit for positions in NYC? Do senior IBD / Securities professionals fly all the way from NYC to SFO for OCR? Or do GSB students conduct independent recruiting trips to NYC?
The people hiring you likely still see Harvard a step above the rest. The name resonates with people. What did you choose?
Hi everyone, sorry for the radio silence! I ended up choosing Stanford. Overall I was much more impressed with the students I met there. I'll admit that the Harvard brand was incredibly tempting but I think Stanford is much more innovative and in-tune with forward-thinking business. I am happy to discuss if anybody has any questions and my offer still stands to give any advice on applications if you PM me. Hope everyone is having a nice summer!
And thank you to everyone that helped by giving advice when I asked! It was much appreciated and very helpful. You WSO guys and gals are a good bunch. Do you think Brady will be mad?
Brady on the phone, he's disgusted. You're going to forego endless memorable nights in Cambridge with the most amazing people in America? You just tossed away what would have been the best two years of your life.
Tommy thinks you made the right choice. Go out and bag a bunch of tech cheddar and paste it all over those salty triscuits of yours. Ellison's looking for another crew member for one of his 73 footers.
Peace
867-5309
Jenny
Congrats! No wrong decision in this case so definitely a champagne problem. Have a blast at Stanford!
I have a good friend who is gonna go to Stanford for MBA next year. She got turned down by Harvard and was very upset but I would suggest her to see this thread. Congratulations OP, sincerely. I believe eventually people will get to the 'right' place for them no matter how long it might take, as long as they are the 'right' people.
'It's easy if you try.No hell below us.' - John Lennon
I definitely agree with your statement. I think (and I fell into this trap as well) that when you're applying to b-school you can tend to fall into the frame of thinking that an MBA is an end-all be-all sort of thing that determines your life. It's not like that at all - it's up to you to do whatever it is you want. It doesn't matter where you went or if you even went somewhere (although, obviously, connections and such can help you, but you still need to put the work in and be semi-intelligent!).
After meeting a lot of students at both H & S I can tell you that all of these people are just regular, normal people trying to figure out their lives. The amount of hero worship that is often placed on the "elite schools" by applicants is really kind of weird and unwarranted.
Sorry to hear about your friend being very upset. I've actually been surprised to see that all (except for 1) of the people I had met who were deciding between Stanford and Harvard chose S. There was also a FB for dual admits and 75%+ chose S. Supposedly that 75-80% rate has been the norm the past couple of years. Just figured I'd share in case anybody is curious on the split rate.
It will be interesting to see what happens with all of the b-schools in the years going forward.
Hope the first couple months have treated you well. Seem like a down to earth dude.
ManTgreyman - I am in the same shoes as you were last spring (trying to choose between H/S). It also sounds like we have somewhat similar backgrounds. I'd love to chat with you to hear more of your perspective having gone through this decision making process. Can you PM me so we can connect?
HBS/Stanford (Originally Posted: 07/25/2008)
Did anyone here go to HBS or Stanford GSB? Or do you have close friends or colleagues that went to either of these 2 schools?
Can you please share your experiences with the admissions process and what exactly they look for when they are reading essays? These seem to be very different schools from everything else in the MBA business schools ">M7.
Congrats on your decision. Stanford has an amazing Bschool!
My boss at my PE internship and a few alumni I've talked to have went to HBS. Believe it or not, there is no magic formula to getting in. Oh...unless you're this guy:
http://www.howtogetintohbs.com/
But seriously. One thing I've found by visiting there a few times for student tours, listening to my boss and a few alums, etc. is that they are good at finding out your bullshit. They can smell it a mile away. Which is ironic, because alot of people think at their big BB jobs, etc. that it's good to bullshit. They get good at it. So good that everyone believes them. But not these adcomms. They are good. If your story makes sense, you've done all the right things (GPA, GMAT, being more than a robot), then you've got as good a chance as anyone. Put yourself out there in your essays, don't put up any armor, and be honest. That gives you as good a shot as anyone applying there, if not better.
Have a lot of friends who just graduated this past May from both HBS and Stanford. Going through the admissions process 2+ years ago, you notice that HBS/Stanford is indeed different in their recruiting standards in that they look for unique individuals. You'll find a larger percentage of individuals with extraordinary backgrounds (think former Olympians) relative to other b-schools. You really have to show in the admissions process that you can bring something different to the table as there are a number of people who can post the right GPA, GMAT, etc.
Harvard vs. Stanford MBA for PE? (Originally Posted: 06/08/2009)
Harvard vs. Stanford MBA for PE? Which is better?
have u been admitted into those schools yet?
I have, in my mind.
I'm going to have to second this. Don't put the cart before the horse here... otherwise you will be setting yourself up for disappointment. More and more, IB and PE types are having a very difficult time getting into H/S and this past year, many blue-chip 2+2 IB+PE folks are ending up at schools like Columbia, Chicago, Kellogg, etc.
Realistically, in this environment and possibly going forward, if you're an IB+PE type, you need one or more of the following to drive you into H/S:
1) MS/GS Banking + Top-tier PE (Carlyle/KKR/etc) 2) 3.8+ GPA from a top 10 UG and 750+ GMAT 3) Excellent extracurriculars and leadership on campus 4) Preferably 2-4 years of work experience, and not more. 5) Underrepresented minority or female status
If you're a 3.5, 710 kind of guy who worked at UBS and a $1B PE firm... you really need to have #3-5 to even stand any sort of chance whatsoever.
Historically, there are ~50 kids per year who get admitted to both Harvard and Stanford and have to make this judgement call. If you end up being one of these guys... just go visit the respective admitted students weekends and figure out which one is the better fit for you. You'll definitely be smart enough to make the call.
Otherwise... I highly recommend broadening your scope and looking outside H/S and crafting a list of 5-6 schools where you'd enjoy being and may have a more realistic shot of admission.
I'd say Stanford if you want to remain on the West Coast. Anywhere else in the world, go with Harvard. Either way, if you go to one of these schools, not getting a job in PE will be more your own fault than anything else.
~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker
How is Stanford viewed on the east coast? I'm from the west coast where stanford is king and is viewed comparably with harvard. But I assume it might be different on the east coast? NY/wall street?
I agree with CB on this one. If you want to stay in California then go with Stanford, but pretty much anywhere else I think HBS is the best choice. Particularly if you want to go international, I'd say HBS has the edge in terms of reputation and network.
Obviously both are top tier and recognized everywhere by industry professionals though, so it's also just a matter of where you want to go and live for 2 years (if you get into both).
I can't comment on how it is "viewed," but I can comment on the number of Stanford alumni working in PE on the East Coast. The answer is: Minimal compared to HBS alumni. In fact, it is very rare that I run into an East Coast Stanford alumni.
Now, I can't say whether this is the result of reputation or simply the fact that many Stanford alumni choose to pursue careers on the West Coast, but that's the way it is. If you truly do have the option between either school, I would elect for HBS every time to keep more doors open.
~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker
I think most Stanford MBAs prefer to stay on the West coast, or pursue other opportunities outside of PE. Additionally, Stanford is far smaller than Harvard, so on a % basis, if 20% of each class were to go into PE, Harvard would have a much large representation in terms on number of new employees. That said, you should be able to pretty much write your own ticket if you graduate from either one of these school, and network well. Focus more on the overall experience, not just landing a PE slot upon graduation - both schools are ridiculously fantastic - if you get into both, smile, relax, make a decision, and enjoy.
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Damn...didn't know it was that hard to get in...
How is it that so few overlap? Are the cultures of the 2 schools that different or is admissions just random (i.e. there are 2,500 top tier candidates each year and each school pretty much randomly selects enough to fill the class)?
The cultures of the schools are different -- they look for different things, and also the fact that it really is that subjective and random when you have way more people who are strong candidates than there are actual spaces available.
Also, fewer people apply to both HBS and Stanford than one would imagine.
There are a lot more people who turn down H/W/S than you would think... I know a few who've made the decision and it essentially boils down to "I went to Harvard undergrad and worked at McK - if I need that MBA network, I have enough contacts between those two networks to be effective". Their profile is very, very strong and an MBA simply does not add all that much. Maybe not coincidentally, they all are currently at top-tier hedge funds with a distinctly weaker MBA culture.
I just want to get into Wharton...end the madness and let December 18th come already!!!!!!!!!
A few data points to throw in here from what I've learned since starting school:
Love all the numbers that back up everything stated here. Does anyone have datapoints on this?
You guys talking about the dual admits and people getting dinged with insane resumes.... It's all true, I'm sure.
But there is something else to consider - people also get in with less than stellar resumes. I recently found out my friend from HS got into stanford this year. He went to a solid, second-tier UG school (Michigan, UVA, NYU), he had a 3.5 in biology... then he went and lived in spain and did microfinance work for 2 years. He went home and worked at his dad's law firm as a legal assistant in corporate finance for 1 year.... he got a 700+ on his GMAT, but not over 750 (I don't remember where it was exactly). He also got into Wharton and Chicago. He's a white male.
What does this tell you? To me is says your PERSONALITY and writing ability matter a lot. This guy is a very charismatic, charming dude -- and I'm sure he wrote exceptional essays. He also probably interviewed really well... it's that simple. It's not all about working at Blackstone, having gone to harvard, or having a 4.0
From what I've seen, the best way to position yourself for HBS is working at McKinsey. It is absurd how many people at HBS have worked at McKinsey at some point in their careers.
PE is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, industry to get into the school from just because they get so many applications from PE guys. Obviously, if someone makes it to McKinsey/TPG/Carlyle they are extremely smart, have fantastic grades, and are very driven, so the acceptance rate from places like this is probably higher, but from PE as an industry, it's tough.
It also helps to have perfect life stories to go with the questions. He probably also has made a real impact to his organization. That's tough, because I sure haven't.
But I agree with International Pymp as well - personality is very important. If you can get an interview and are just a great speaker with your story straight and good enough credentials, there's no reason you couldn't get in with a less than stellar background.
Agree to disagree, we are both biased.
This is "wallstreetoasis" not "gentleman'soasis". I'm disappointed at such classiness...
On another note, I hear admissions is somewhat easier for those who are hispanic/african american because
It makes me ill to see 2 gentleman act with such level heads on this site.
To give you all a perspective, Computer Science Major from a top Middle East univ (3.4) + Duke Grad School (3.6) + Goldman IBD top of the class + KKR + Founded own healthcare company (nonprofit) funded by Goldman, male, 27yrs, indian, GMAT 700 = Reject from Harvard, Stanford, MIT
x
bad gpa, bad gmat, too old... no surprises there.
JitS, Did you use a consultant for your essays? Also, where did you end up getting into/choosing to go?
^^^^Thats a little harsh. His grades are respecatable as is his GMAT. I think the problem is you are an indian with a 700 gmat. Indians are freaking crushing the gmat now. You should defitely shoot for 760 and hire a consultant for the apps. Don't take that offensively as I don't mean it as such.
I am not trying to be harsh. I mean... those grades are basically as good as mine - but I'm just saying, as far as going to HBS they're bad.... not okay, but bad. 700 GMAT is maybe not "bad", but it certainly isn't going to help you... not at top business schools when you're a finance guy.
You know what everyone? Maybe HBS can just go fuck itself. Ever think of that?
Yes, I hired a consultant and beleive me when I say this.. my essays and recos (particularly the recommenders) were great....i am still working in the same place mentioned above.. so yea, HBS can go fuck itself... I know indians are getting all 750+.. thats something I just couldnt manage given my long weeks and managing my startup on the side.. i just thought they would see through all of this.. but unny that none of them even gave me an interview.....shit happens....not bummed about it anymore....
The class profiles I've looked at the T10 schools have minorities that make up less that 15% of the class. This includes native american, african-american, and mexican. There are a few non-profits out there who's goal is to get these minorities into top MBA programs, complete with employer affiliations and top MBA programs sponsorship. The requirement GMAT-wise is around 650
What about the median GMAT for a white student? Its possible that the school medians are thrown off by higher scores from Asian applicants (not to stereotype, going based on info in this thread).
What about the median GMAT for a white student? Its possible that the school medians are thrown off by higher scores from Asian applicants (not to stereotype, going based on info in this thread). Same goes for domestic vs. international admits: the "bar" for domestic scores might be set lower for domestic students over foreign students.
Median scores aren't affected by outrageous ends of the spectrum, either way. Mean scores, on the other hand, are.
Wow...people on this forum have a very warped sense of reality. I honesty can't believe someone just said a 3.4 in CS at a top regional uni is "bad", or that they're not surprised that a (GS+KKR+started a NPO+decent pedigree) got got rejected at these places. Let me clarify something: a 3.4 in CS is damn good, and that profile is impressive as all hell (mainly because I'm impressed he/she has the time to start and run a NPO while working those hours...shows commitment and organization). Are you guys reading what you're typing? Seriously? This is B-school, not a fucking PhD at MIT.
Can someone who has actually been to these B-schools please comment on the quality of the student body? All this speculation is pointless.
Actually a 3.4 in CS is like a 3.95 in Finance. I know because I've studied both. Too bad no one really knows that (bschools, banks, peers, etc) so I still wouldn't be surprised if GPA is a reason for the ding.
I think it's just a combination of everything - they really do get SO many PE resumes, you really have to distinguish yourself or have top of the top grades/scores, because there will be people that do GS+KKR (or other equivalents) that do have 4.0s and 760+ on their GMAT. I think scores and GPAs are more forgiving if you're not in finance, though.
HBS hands down. dont care what other people say but the number of HBS alumni that work in PE is absolutely insane. As for Europe, it would have to be INSEAD. But honestly, if you're in the US and want to do an MBA, there's no point, at least in my opinion, to do one outside H/W/S particularly if you're not required to by your fund. If you have no choice (i.e. your ass is out unless you do one) but to get one then I would understand applying to places like Columbia, Chicago etc. But if you don't have to (can have a clear career progression without it) its got to be H/W/S - if you dont get accepted at any of these 3, no point in doing an MBA at all.
I think Stanford GSB makes your resume standout more. It's a bit harder to get into than HBS... that holds some weight in and of itself. Furthermore, all the top PE firms recruit heavily at both Harvard and Stanford. However, at Harvard you are competing against a cohort of almost 1000, most of whom are at least interested in PE. At Stanford, you are competing against almost 400 peers, many of whom are looking for jobs in tech/VC and will not be applying to PE firms. There are certainly more people in PE from HBS, but I would imagine the hiring % is more favorable at Stanford GSB.
One of my best friends from college got into both HBS and GSB this year, and chose GSB. He wants to be a tech entrepreneur though, so take it fwiw.
Stanford
Have been hearing that PE hiring was extremely tough last year at HBS - part of the reason why there are adding fewer PE / finance types maybe?
PE placement at HBS has certainly come down since 2007. I think the 2010 graduating class placed 9% into PE.
yup. Think that we're in a 10 year or so cycle for PE. For now, I think the bschools will continue to diversify their incoming classes.
One secretary who works at the MGMAT told me she knew a former student who got into Harvard with below a 600, True story.
HBS.
That said, I'd personally take GSB. The smaller class size, tighter culture, and phenomenal placement in VC makes Stanford just a whole lot more attractive, imo.
Everyone tends to forget the end game of all of this is money.... Money>prestige any day of the week. Lets see if a harvard mba can buy me a yach or house in the alps
Harvard vs. Stanford MBA - if you could choose? (Originally Posted: 03/22/2010)
Hypothetical question: if you got into both schools, which would you choose and why.
What would your done-deal criteria be (women, weather, cost, proximity to shiatsu parlor?)
I want to stay in corporate finance, so hands down Harvard. I've learned the power of networking and Harvard has like 2.5x more bankers than Stanford does.
Depends on which coast you want to work on.
This is exactly how one should think about this decision. Any differences between Stanford and Harvard will be marginal, so think about what network is going to be best for you, not which is best overall.
hbs does have more name recognition w/ the common folk, but the superstardust is abundant at both places to those in the know. its definitely a culture choice i think. and on that note, id have to take gsb for the win.
Harvard any day for me. No other school in the world has the brand recognition of Harvard.
Harvard, LSE, Stanford
stanford vastly superior
If you want to do tech, venture capital, or startups, choose Stanford. Otherwise go for HBS.
Does HBS not place just as well in tech, vc, or startups?
It is not so much as HBS does not place well as it is Stanford just places much better. I think a large part of that being a function of Stanfords location - Palo Alto and being in the heart of Silicon Valley simply puts you in closer proximity to more Tech and VC firms than HBS. That being said, both are top notch and you have virtually unlimited options graduating from either.
SGSB...for the weather
harvard's definitely on par with Stanford for VC for networking... maybe the advantage to Stanford due to proximity to silicon valley...
what did she choose and why
She chose HBS for the bigger network and the better name abroad. She wants to do international work afterwards.
I have a family friend who chose Stanford over Harvard - ended up a FICC trader at GS in New York. Another family friend who went there is an MD in Fixed Income at JP Morgan. Granted it's a small sample but I've never heard of any Stanford GSB grad who wanted banking or trading and wasn't able to get a job. It's just less popular because consulting and tech are the huge draws on the West Coast.
Yeah, there's no reason why a Stanford MBA would not be able to get a S&T job at a top bank. There are just very few people there who apply for those jobs. At Stanford, tech firms like Google and VC firms like kleiner perkins have the same appeal as Blackstone and Citadel do at HBS and Wharton.
Is there any difference in what HBS and SGSB look for in candidates (engineers vs ibankers ... e.t.c.)?
This is being general, but Stanford seems to value "unconventional" applicants like entrepreneurs, non-profit types, and basically people who didn't work for a big-name company. HBS usually gets the folks who follow the traditional MBB, BB, PE/HF route, along with ex-military people. And I think Stanford skews a bit older as well.
Stanford for weather, women, and the....
Here’s my take. (Disclosure: I have attended one of these schools and have had several close friends attend each (with a mix of preferences). I’ve tried my best to be unbiased.)
HBS: Pros: - Unrivaled brand (amplified with the layperson and internationally) - Better facilities - More institutional resources - Larger alumni base - Easier access to networking/recruiting on east coast - Arguably better teaching quality - Better looking ladies (not being facetious)
Cons: - No curriculum flexibility in first year - Grade disclosure permitted - More competitive classroom culture - Harder to network on west coast
Pro/Con: - 100% case method instruction - More structured environment - Larger class size (~900) - Slightly younger class
Stanford: Pros: - Equal brand strength to employers you care about - Slightly less competition for jobs from classmates (due to smaller class size) - Better relative placement into buyside (85% of finance jobs in PE/VC/HF/IM vs. 70% for HBS) - Greater access to silicon valley if that’s your thing - Smaller class size leads to tight-knit, supportive community - Grade non-disclosure policy - More curriculum flexibility - Weather
Cons: - Smaller alumni base, particularly on east coast. - Harder to network on east coast (logistically) - Lower brand strength internationally - Facilities (though new campus opens in a couple years)
Pro/Con: - More laid back culture - Smaller class size (~370) - Mix of lecture and case instruction
The bottom line is that there's really not much difference in the career opportunities out of either. So it comes down to cultural fit and geography. (I’ve heard from a few sources that dual admits usually split ~50/50. I can see that could be true but my personal hunch is it’s more 60/40 or 55/45 in favor of HBS.)
ibleedexcel,
Could you do a pro/con for Wharton also?
If the schools are so similar, might as well choose Harvard for the brand recognition (especially international)
I've spent a significant amount of time evaluating both Stanford and Harvard (I'll be applying this fall), including talking to admissions folks / alumni / current students / attending panel discussions / etc. The one thing I would note is that while Harvard does appear to have better brand recognition internationally, its program appears to be incredibly weak compared to those of Stanford and Wharton. Stanford places an extreme emphasis on breaking the US centric point of view that most Americans tend to have. Take a look at their Global Management Program and you'll quickly see that you have a wide variety of options for immersing yourself in other cultures. In fact, a "Global Management Experience" is a REQUIREMENT for graduation at Stanford GSB. As a result, I think Stanford is competitive to the Harvard brand on the international stage.
Another thing that came up in a panel discussion that I didn't see above is that Stanford students can sometimes struggle in the job placement department due to the small size of the class. Some students expressed frustration that some organizations would not participate in on campus recruiting because it was such a long trek to make to see only a half dozen interested students. As a result, a lot of students had to take the helm on their own job search and travel to their prospective employer in order to land a job. I'd imagine this would be a small barrier for the Type A personalities that tend to land at top schools, but for some it could be a significant drawback.
And lastly -- the Stanford folks said they tend to send between 5 to 10 people to the Boston area every year (the tone was that this was a large number), so don't expect too large a network on the East Coast. And yes, I recognize Boston is not NYC.
This is a pretty good summary. Stanford is not as strong if you want to go into traditional fields like finance or MBB consulting. It really caters to those who want to start their own businesses or work for a niche firm, like a startup.
Definitely Harvard has the better reputation and sorry, LSE's rep isn't as good as Stanford's.
But here are a couple reasons to go to Stanford
If you want to go work at a talent agency. William Morris Endeavor, CAA, UTA and ICM all prefer Stanford over Harvard and Wharton. i don't know why, but they do - probably west coast thing.
Nor cal weather is way better
If you want to work in silicon valley
Better authentic cuisine nearby - more immigrants in Nor Cal.
If you're an international student from Asia, you'd probably feel more at home in northern california.
San Francisco is a cooler city than Boston, although you'd have to take the train there.
California governorship is about to be up for grabs, so you can vote.
Talent agencies? Really? Who would step out of either HBS or S GSB and into a talent agency for less than $30k/year, only to have to wipe the ass of a dropout?
number 7 is a terrible terrible reason
I think 7 is a good reason. California really needs some good leadership.
So many idiots on this thread. My perspective; I haven't attended either MBA program but have a ton of friends who have, and interviewed a ton of candidates from both.
If you go to HBS or Stanford and want to do MBB (or IBD), it literally will make ZERO difference which school you go to to "improve" your chances of getting in. If you want that path (nothing wrong with it), the criterion of recruiter accessibility should be pretty low on your list.
For buyside, HBS is better for both PE and HF opps and Stanford is way better for VC (even if you're not a Kauffman fellow). I know PE firms and HFs that will ONLY hire from HBS (i.e. not Stanford) - call it what you want, but that's the way it is.
I can't really speak about the academics because a) I haven't experienced it and b) I don't really care about them. The case method seems much more interesting to me personally but the edge is relatively small.
Finally (there's no nice way to say this) but Stanford kids are MASSIVE dbags. I'm basing this off a legit sample size as well as attending a few events thrown by GSB alums in NYC/Hamptons. HBS has the arrogant/dbag rep (which isn't completely undeserved) but Stanford just takes it to another level - if I hear another guy talk about how much golf he played in bschool while nursing a G&T and wearing a pink polo, Bonobos, Wayfarers and boat shoes, I'm going to shoot someone.
Which hedge funds and PE firms only recruit at HBS?
i'm surprised that you've had such negative experiences with stanford people. i'm generalizing here, but from my experience, columbia people came across as the most obnoxious.
What is GSB and G&T? Too many acronyms on this site...
(Stanford) Graduate School of Business. Gin and Tonic, probably.
It's hard to imagine somebody passionate about representation attending HBS/SGSB. Studio exec or entertainment corp dev, maybe -WME, etc., not really. A JD would be more fitting.
There's a lot of slapass in finance (IB, PE...) -children of clients and MDs get hired all of the time; I was one of them. But most of those hired that way are in some way qualified. I had less than a 2.8 from Princeton, but I went to Pton. Many of these people in mailrooms and on agents' desk's have subprime qualifications. Imagine graduating from HBS and being held as a peer to a college dropout whose uncle is a producer. And that dropout may be seen early on as more successful because of his industry contacts.
I think you probably know a lot about finance.
I think you clearly know very little about entertainment and talent agency work. =P In fact, you probably don't know anyone at a talent agency do you? College drop out as a producer - this is not just entertainment industry - its the talent agencies. It's very different.
To KC ^^^
Hey man, whatever floats your boat. Lloyd go get me a Danish.
Seriously I don't know why people are disparaging it so much. It’s different but can be interesting or frustrating (i have no idea, it might be West Coast thing). But, wouldn't USC B-school be just as good for the talent connections if not better? It's a lot easier to get in and probably more scholarships awarded.
I actually looked at Marshall and I didn't see the majors recruit out of them. I think I saw ICM recruit out of Anderson.
Anyway - OP's question was about Harvard vs. Stanford - sorry about the tangent.
BTW - lloyd got promoted.
I do see what you're seeing though. And I apologize for the insensitive comment, and will strike it from what i said. I think you're talking about entertainment industry such as producers, best boys, directors, casting crew, etc. - For those - I absolutely agree. There are plenty of credential-less people working at studios, production and distribution companies. As for talent agencies, I think its actually a lot less than you might think. its actually pretty astonishing at how rigid the recruiting criteria are at these agencies so I suppose what i'm suggesting is that had your cousin not attended SGSB or similar caliber school, he wouldn't have gotten a job at one of the agencies.
I would take Stanford GSB if admitted to both. I think GSB has a reputation for being harder to get into than HBS. A lot of the value in an MBA comes from the quality of your classmates. I went to HYP undergrad, so I have a handful of friends at HBS, and two friends at Stanford GSB. The two at the GSB seem more qualified by a noticeable margin (one of them started a company as an undergrad and sold for ~$3M after only 2 years, the other one wrote a senior thesis which changed the IEEE DSL Standard used by all major telecom companies). It's simply too difficult for Harvard to fill ~1000 seats with truly outstanding people, especially when they are sharing many top admits with nearby schools (Wharton, Columbia, etc). On the other hand, Stanford owns the entire west coast, and only admits ~400 students. Getting admitted to Stanford GSB is an incredible and rare accomplishment.
Stanford, its in Cali, nuff said.
Stanford cause Katy Perry is a California Girl
Gurl
Harvard vs. Stanford by the Numbers $$$ (Originally Posted: 11/21/2011)
From the 2011 employment reports. All figures are median. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
HBS Industry % Base BonusSign-on Total 1st-yr Comp All 100% $120,000$35,000 $20,000 $175,000 All Finance 39% $125,000$95,000 $40,000 $260,000 PE 14% $130,000 $120,000 $25,000 $275,000 VC 1%$130,000 N/A N/A N/A HF 7%$150,000 $150,000 $20,000 $320,000 IM 5% $115,000$62,500 $40,000 $217,500 Total Buyside: 27% (Total Buyside as % of All Finance: 69%)
Stanford Industry% Base Bonus Sign-on Total 1st-yr Comp All 100% $125,000$40,000 $20,000$185,000 All Finance 36% $135,000 $110,000 $40,000 $285,000 PE 14% $150,000 $165,000 $25,000 $340,000 VC7% $150,000 $62,500 N/AN/A HF6% $150,000 $137,500 $25,000 $312,500 IM 5% $114,500 $51,000 $40,000 $205,500 Total Buyside: 31% (Total Buyside as % of All Finance: 86%)
http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/mba/data-and-statistics/employment-statistics.html http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/cmc/reports/documents/EmploymentReport_10_1…
So that bonus is for graduates 1 year out? Or expected bonus?
For PE, I'm guessing no carry?
How is HF different from IM... or are they referring to Asset Management?
Here's a totally irrelevant post from Quora mentioning both schools. Thought I just might share.
http://www.quora.com/Choosing-Colleges/How-does-a-star-engineering-high…
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