Trending Content
Career Resources
WSO Free Modeling Series - Now Open Through
April 30, 2024
9 Free Financial Modeling Lessons
Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling.
+Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file
+Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file
I see someone is enjoying busy season.
Going from audit to IB is not impossible. It's done pretty often. You should network and find out what type of job you ultimately want. Network with bankers and see if it's something you're interested in.
Looks like someone finally realizes that going through college without ever actually utilizing your brain and just choosing the easy way out turns out to be a regrettable decision. At least you realize it now; it's not too late, as long as you really network crazy hard starting right now.
Nice one dude, you really told him!
Masterg, I appreciate the honest feedback. At this point in my career and my life Ibanking wouldn't be out of the question. I have a few friends who do it, and the only negatives that I can see is that 1) for as "prestigious" as ibanking is, it seems they do a LOT of useless bitch work, and 2) they literally work so much it impacts their health. Is it worth it? Who the hell knows.
Objectivism, I get what you're trying to say... but it's not that I didn't utilize my brain while in college. I graduated with honors from a top 30 school with an ACCT/FIN double major (acctg program was 1000x harder), with some solid leadership/internship experience to boot. I think it had more to do with a lack of direction & advising from a career perspective. Nonetheless, I got my shit together, hopefully not too late.
Does anyone have any experience with the corporate "financial analyst" roles? The job descriptions are pretty telling but I want to be sure i'm not falling victim to "the grass is always greener" syndrome.
I think the problem is that sometimes we believe that they have something to offer and we fail to acknowledge that we really don't know a damn thing about how business works when we are just out of school. I'm sure you took "interviewing tips" or whatever at your business school and they essentially taught you to fake it until you make it. Well, the reality of the situation is that every single job you get for a few years out of school will be "bitch work"--you don't have any skills or experience.
Dude, if you can't hack busy season, not sure IB is for you. First year analysts edit excels and ppts 15 hours a day. I promise its not going to feel much different from the monotonous work you do in Big 4 -- the only difference is you get paid for it.
There are TONS of threads on this forum about this exact topic, so use the search bar.
I would also try to figure out what it is you actually want to do. Maybe finance isn't for you at all; maybe a more entrepreneurial role may be up your ally.
Brief answers: 1. Once you figure your shit out...If you can find an analyst role: apply -- people might be skeptical about your ability to do the hours though, if you are leaving in the middle of your FIRST busy season. You need to have a fantastic story as to why you did it for 6 months and are looking to leave, and why you won't just up and leave after 6 months when you realize you hate the work you are doing at a bank. 2. Depends on the FP&A role. Some are more strategy/finance based, some are straight up accounting roles; ie. month end close (the shit you are currently auditing). 3. You don't need to stay three years (I assume PwC because they promote after 3, everyone else is after 2)--You need to prove you can do the work and are worth keeping around, and then make the pitch to try to transfer into TAS or some other line of business.
bank-on-this, part of what I'm asking whether leaving ASAP will be more optimal in that i won't be as much "branded" as an accountant, or if I should suck it up for a few years to prove that I am capable of putting in the grunt work. Which I have no problem doing, I just have this feeling in the back of my mind that I could be doing something 1000x more useful for society with my time. I did previously check the "search bar," and it seems to have varied opinions on this.
I think ideally something along the lines of project valuation/NPV analysis or corporate strategy would be a good fit for me, but most of that stuff is post-MBA from what I understand.
I am Big 4 currently interviewing for various banks. Been in big 4 for 18 months--so I think i have a decent perspective.
You have already missed recruiting this year, so unless you have networked beforehand, you are probably out of luck. Once in a while there is turnover, or a boutique that may have an opening... take a look around in your target market. Like I said, the majority of your challenge will be spinning a story. Why are you switching now? Why banking? Why didn't you interview before? Do you really want to do banking or do you just hate accounting? Will you actually stick around? -- your story needs to address those questions at a minimum.
Take some time to understand what you actually want to do before committing 100+ hours a week to another job you hate.
As to the branding issue--it get more hype than it should. Think about it: you can do BIg4 for a four or five years, go get your MBA, and go into banking--now you're a banker. That simple. Even leaving early, Big 4 on the resume is more of an advantage than people give it credit for. With that said, you absolutely need to know ALL the technicals cold, and prove that you want the job...invest in modeling courses, etc.
On the leaving subject, if leaving during busy season looks bad (can't hack the hours), when is the best time then? I thought the best time to apply FT off-cycle to banks/etc is "busy season" since most people leave after they receive their bonus?
Only applies to first year - once you start looking at off cycle you can use the busy season war stories to prove you can do 90 hours weeks like everyone else.
Off cycle could also be a fall / winter start date - in which case you would start applying during the summer months. Having a year of experience in the corporate world (even if not directly related - read: accounting) makes it much easier for a bank to swallow. There is an absolute leap in maturity, people skills, etc between graduation and completing your first year in the corporate world.
could be an over generalization, but i think many people in our generation have a romantic vision of life in the working world, especially the corporate world. they think from day one they are going to have an impact, work on interesting and fascinating projects, and find some type of intrinsic satisfaction in the work they do. the truth is, whether you are in big 4 pubic accounting, banking, consulting, etc, your job is going to be relatively mindless, repetitive, and dull.
you specifically use buzzwords like analysis, creativity, and forward thinking. again, the truth is, in big corporations with thousands and thousands of employees, there is a small group of executives who are steering the direction of the company, making important strategic decisions, and actually having an impact on operations. everyone else is pretty much a cog contributing their little part to make sure the machine functions effectively. you show up, you do your work, you collect your pay, and you get to live comfortably as a result.
i do hear you though. i felt the same way early on, but after several years i came to the above realization. face it, you sold out. almost everyone on this site did. you could have taken an interesting job where you help people, make a difference, etc, but you didn't do that. you chose to pursue a stable career where you can make very good money. it just takes time. everyone wants the money, power, respect right off the bat, but that's not reality.
would you be happier in industry or in a different public service line? i doubt it. it's all the same crap. but it's not all doom and gloom. compared to your peers, you are in a great spot. just put in your time. recognize the first 5-10 years of your career you are going to be a minion like the rest of us, and try to enjoy life outside of work.
+1 Happiness = Reality - Expectations
bird, thanks a ton man. This post really hits home for me. I agree that the "millennial" generation puts a ton of emphasis on having a large impact right away, which is both well-meaning and unrealistic at the same time. From what I'm hearing, unless you're an entrepreneur or working for a really tiny company, you are going to be somewhat of a bitch the first 5-10 years of your career. I'm glad I'm realizing that now and not later. I always had this dream of starting a financial advisory practice in my hometown, so I'm just going to keep showing up to work with a positive attitude and try to learn as much as I can and meet as many people as possible while I'm still young.
A lot of people (understandably) post on here assuming everyone wants to go into IB. Why IB, why not accounting, why did you leave etc etc. Truth is, I don't want to do IB. It's just not for me. Some of you like it, that's great. Some of you hate it and just want the $$$ from working in PE/HF later on, that's cool too. My ultimate goal would either be to start my own practice or hold some type of leadership role within a corporation (CFO, COO, corp strategy, etc), so I guess Big4 isn't the worst place to be. I'm assuming my best option of the 3 is to stick with Big4 for a little longer and just be proactive and open to new opportunities, like working abroad or trying out new service lines, then go for an MBA?
Well said bird
This. One hundred million times this. I work in corporate finance for one of the FP&A/strategy groups and we do a lot of forward looking analysis such as revenue projections, as well as expenses, headcount presentations, etc. But the truth is at the lower level you only make the presentations that the senior leaders use to make decisions. Sure you maybe have some leeway to show the information how they want to see it but you'll never be the taking that information and saying "we should do this". Divisions/corporations are so large and like this post mentions, it is really a very small amount of people making the decisions.
A corporation hierarchy is triangle shaped. There are all the analysts/associates (or whatever there equivalents are) and then the next tier of middle management (VPs, Directors). The truth is while many will reach the VP/Director level, very few will make the critical jump into the MD/C-level exec region where the decisions are made. Even my managers who are in there 30's and 40's and have had for all intents and purposes have had a successful career (clearing 250K) don't make the important decisions but more so act as a buffer for the analyst information and the real decision makers.
I think this is an important truth of life in a corporation that I really had no idea about until I actually started interning and working. In a way you really do kind of have to sell out and wait it out for 15-20 years and even then need to have some luck that you are in the right place at the right time to make the MD+ jump. There are trade offs in the fact that you can have a very stable career and a good income. But you really need to be a rockstar for a long time to get noticed in a giant pool,
I think you need to figure out what it is that interests you longer term (corporate finance, banking, HF/PE, etc) and find out the best stepping stone to get there (corporate finance, CPA, MBA, CFA, etc).
this blogger had some relevant posts on the topic http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/146980
Consulting is actually interesting.
I wouldn't consider a financial analyst role at a F500 a "dead end gig". The CEO of the company I work for started as a financial analyst. Now if you take the financial analyst role with a shitty company, then that's a different story.
That said, I don't think you'd enjoy a corporate role based on your post. Quality of work is similar but maybe a bit more intellectually stimulating. The main draw is the shorter hours. I agree with other posters in that you might want to consider a different field altogether.
One accounting class in college is enough to show you that you will not do anything innovative or creative, unless you were at Enron.
Lets be honest, you didn't give a shit about what you wanted to do and this is where you are...up next, MBA and hopefully a career change perhaps
dutchduke, you would be surprised what a good accounting school can do. Yeah, there were some shitty classes where the work was boring as hell... but there were some where we did case studies on how companies should account for stock options, or investigating revenue recognition fraud, financial statement analysis, shit like that. Which seemed interesting to me. While in the (not as good) finance program there were a lot of "dumb bros" who could basically just memorize CAPM and get by with Bs.
And ishouldbestudying, you're 100% right. The other day at the gym I start talking with a trader, trying to show him that I understood how derivatives/hedging works. And he just laughs and goes "I used to be just like you... then I started working and realize that I don't know jack shit." True statement.
I would suggest sticking around for one year so that you show you can survive a busy season and can amass some stories about working longish hours for finance interviews, but at the same time you won't seem as much of an accountant on paper. What I did to switch from Big 4 was to proactively look for instances where TAS and audit were working together (audit often sources work for TAS guys) and tried to join that engagement and network and take part in the project. This allowed me to get some finance/valuation/analysis type experience on my CV which gave me a fighting chance when applying for finance roles. If you can't manage to do this, and you can't transfer to a TAS team, then you will probably need to keep going until you can get into a well-regarded MBA program. Just my 2 cents, best of luck!
Big Four > REPE > REIT > Private Development. To me, Big Four auditing (1 year, CPA in California) was the gateway for my career which I currently enjoy. I say find what you are passionate about (working in a field you are dispassionate about helps you see this sort of) and network and be open to the chance opportunities. Busy season sucks but you are still young and the path to success has many variations. My rule is that if I could predict where I'd be in 5 years, I might be compelled to find something else to do. Being older, my outlook has changed a little.
In auditing, there are 3 types of people. 1) people who love it; 2) people who complain but seem to stay; and 3) people who get the f out. Be #1 or 3. Btw, during the Great Recession, my CPA helped put food on the table. Sleep well knowing that when cost of capital increases/ capital freezes, your bean counting skills may come in handy. Be grateful and find your passion. Once you get past the first several years of your career (analyst, associate) the path forward is less defined and certain. Lastly, for finance interviews, the reason why I left auditing is not really a big deal. Your interviewer will likely understand and you will be tested for your future job. Oh one more thing, laptops, great way to force yourself to use excel without a mouse.
Second all of this.
I will say I sometimes think that I would not have been hired (or had a harder time) today in making the transition from Big 4 to REPE acquisitions (top 10 firm) compared to the several years ago. Lots of gunners like on this forum and a shrinking supply of jobs.
While there is bitch work in any entry level job, corporate auditing is on a level all its own. You're tasked with purposefully making up work that no one cares about and that is seriously annoying to employees at the firm you're auditing. An auditor serves an important role in the grand scheme of things, however in their day to day job they seem to be perceived as a burden. On the other hand, an IB analyst or entry-level consultant is not saving the world, however their work output can be of great help in guiding an executive to make an important strategic decision. Not trying to glamorize the work of an analyst or anything, but there are certainly differing levels of annoying for the bitch work required in an entry level job compared to other industries.
Echo the guy above who said the CPA can save your ass in a recesion. Plenty of finance guys lost their jobs and won't work in industry anymore. The dudes with CPAs will never be unemployed. Think about that, it's a great backstop. I'm actually considering skipping MBA and getting an accounting masters->CPA for exactly that reason.
Get your CPA, network out, and next time think about what you want to do ahead of time. PLAN your career to an extent. It's impossible to know the future, but that shouldn't stop you from positioning yourself towards things that you understand.
Also consider this: you can stay in accounting and do financial advising on the side. Financial planning is a tough business to get into, but if you're "in the financial industry" aka accounting, you'll have both a salary and some credibility that will help while you build up your practice. This is another avenue I'm considering (I already am securities licensed).
Big4 is perhaps more boring work than finance, but you're new to the workforce. Here's the deal: WORK SUCKS. You spend your first bunch of years learning stuff to actually become useful to a company, learning how the whole corporate system really works, and hopefully positioning yourself for a great future. But at the end of the day, this shit is just a job to support your lifestyle. Busy season nothwithstanding, you'll have a heck of a lot more time to actually have a life compared to mose finance slaves. Think before you act, you don't want to be in the same mental state all over again in a year.
I wish i could imprint this into some people's heads. I can't deal with some people I know that are a few years out of college and never cease to complain; 'work sucks, FML, miserable, this job sucks' yadda, yadda. Work is work. Yes, sometimes it can be very rewarding and fulfilling but as UFO said the majority of people entering corporate America are just a cog in the machine for their first few years, but such is life.
I take it you go to a Florida school?
Hang in there audit people. There is life after public accounting. Your first year class numbers will dwindle to the point after 5 years, most everyone will be gone doing other pursuits. Enjoy the fact that you are getting your first real paycheck. Stay hungry, be inquisitive. Dispite all the gloom, you are getting a great foundation for a career in business, whether it be hard knock lessons, corporate culture, work efficiency, drinking with your buddies. Understand the relationship of how cash cycles through a business. Learning these relationships and having professional sckeptism has helped in investments.
But if finance is your next goal (investment analyst, financial analyst at buy side or sell side), then it is better to leave around 1 year of Big 4. Why? Many firms like a little seasoning, maturity built in. Also, 1 year or 3 years, it's all the same to them. You'll start in the same entry level job. For corporate finance, stay longer in B4. Maybe to senior, then if you are really liked at the firm, try to get national research assignments or into valuations. For getting into a top MBA, I see manager level experience. So boils down to, do you like this kind of work to be good, or get out. Audit mindset is different from investments mindset (one might be better in doing either or). I was clearly better on the investments side.
There's always someone in a worse situation.
You will be doing "bitch work" at any firm if it is your first position out of school. No one trusts you, nor do you deserve their trust. You're goal should be to do "bitch work" at a job where you want your manager's job at some point. I started out in valuation... at a.. wait for it... NON BIG4 firm, and I despised it. I knew I didn't want to be there because I abhorred the job my manager was supposed to do.
I think you need to do some soul searching and truly find out what interests you. If you want to be on the buy side, make a pitch book for your best investing idea and take every opportunity you get to email it to someone on the buy side. Register for the CFA. Call that alumni you met that you really admired while you were in school. Just do something. You'll be surprised by the things that happen when you break out of your box and actually do something.
I think it also depends on your industry, team, and how good you are. I have seen cases where someone has the right background to do well in a certain position, kills it at work, and is quickly given more challenging assignments or ability to do work performed in the next role leading to a quick promotion to that role. Then again there are managers who believe you should only do your job function, nothing more. It always helps to move to a company/group/manager that has a meritocratic culture.
Find a way to really kill it and gain exposure at your job that you can bring to the table and include in your resume. Just using myself as an example:
First job: IB Operations What I did: Automated my job in 4 months, automated other people's jobs afterwards, made everything into an easy click button role, proceeded to have 2 contractors report unofficially to me. Left after 18 months for...
Second job: Internal operations and strategic consulting at a major credit card company What I did: This job did not give me much role to contribute beyond what I am given, so I started initiating and finding projects within relevant workstreams that I could create. I also started up an internal coding class within the company that has given me exposure to lots of senior level people and already yielded me invites to important cross functional meetings.
Different companies have different cultures, but there's always a way I believe to find ways to stand out and be noticed.
I love my job. I love my pay. I like it more ... each and every single day.
1) Juxtapose your work satisfaction against other alternatives. That barista that takes your morning triple-shot Americano order at Starbucks every morning, would you rather swap places with her? Or the security guard that stands next to the badge-locked security gates to your office complex, would you rather be doing that all day? In comparison, you are much, much more intellectually stimulated than they are.
2) Given the Big 4 culture is generally rather "negative", this also provides a good opportunity for learning. Remember, learning "what not to do" is just as valuable as learning "what to do". All those late night chats over take-out dinners in the office complaining about your senior/manager/partner/everything about your firm? Summarize whether the complaints are valid, and take note of how you can not do those things when you're in a position of power.
3) Find a mentor with a plethora of good qualities (whether it be client schmoozing skills or technical prowess) and have them take you under their wing. (Just a personal note, as I highly value the presence of a solid mentor figure, the lack-of such person in my group was why I left Big 4 Consulting).
4) No matter how down you are, try to keep a smile and think positively. This is very difficult to accomplish, but realize that a lot of your miseries are first world problems in the grand scheme of things.
5) Always keep your dreams/goals in mind and build a network of like-minded individuals who are ambitious. I'm not talking about people who follow the money, I'm talking about people who have visions to someday accomplish something that would carry society as a whole one step forward, regardless of how small that step may be.
If you network, network, network anything is possible. Just don't burn any bridges- you never know when it could come back to bite you.
Doloribus doloremque dolores eum aut quaerat. Molestiae error facere alias enim ab nesciunt quod aut. Unde iusto harum omnis beatae non. Architecto provident iusto veniam explicabo. Et eum libero ea quod vitae et nisi. Similique laboriosam dolore dicta similique eos asperiores.
Ad impedit qui impedit eum ratione consequatur. Minus rerum laudantium animi sunt ipsa. Aliquam quo non ducimus maiores. Harum maiores eligendi autem. Maxime deleniti animi non sit. Dolorem modi sed fugiat sunt perspiciatis quaerat voluptatem.
Voluptates natus cupiditate molestiae deserunt et. Recusandae et ut rerum dolores nisi esse. Aut deserunt quasi ad error aliquam. Aut cum quas voluptatum modi temporibus. Omnis quis dolorem excepturi consequatur ea quia nam. Enim aut praesentium et.
Maxime corporis necessitatibus omnis dignissimos maiores nostrum. Corrupti nostrum vel blanditiis occaecati qui corrupti.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Optio amet recusandae sunt ut velit saepe. Odio voluptatem est est possimus molestias corrupti ut. Soluta neque accusamus nam sed et atque esse. Consequuntur nemo aspernatur quos porro. Velit explicabo temporibus vel minus.
Reprehenderit ad et placeat. Dolor et optio occaecati nihil excepturi laborum. Id occaecati quos dolor distinctio id. Nihil vero et temporibus placeat repellendus consectetur.
Porro pariatur laudantium quia ea. Iure et optio velit in nesciunt nemo non nobis. Voluptas inventore vel doloribus quibusdam aut. Dolores deleniti dolorem ab reprehenderit quo dolor. Possimus ab excepturi architecto.
Pariatur et quidem provident sunt ullam qui sed omnis. Atque in et et dolore non dolore. Cumque quia nihil sequi enim sit est veniam omnis. Quidem praesentium fugiat dolor dolores delectus.
Necessitatibus modi repellat architecto recusandae qui numquam id. Quos aut tenetur aliquam doloribus sed nostrum. Et autem vero architecto nulla dicta ut.
Consequuntur quaerat et dignissimos quisquam. Aut aut porro velit voluptas dolorem. Reprehenderit ipsa optio numquam.