Millennium Sr PM title?

Anyone know what the difference b/w MLP PM and Sr PM titles are? Foudn this from an old WSO thread; in a nut shell, I think it basically says "MLP doesn't have Surveyor GE Ashler CIE like Citadel, instead of 4 equities groups, they have a bunch more (just smaller sized), and Sr PMs effectively lead each of those (akin to Phil Lee Justin Lubell Matt Simon etc), where each of those teams has PMs/analysts working under the Sr PMs"

That description makes sense but wanted to get more color, as a quick linkedin search suggests there are 163 Sr PMs something like 550 PMs...if MLP manages $61.4bn, maybe 4-5x leverage all in (on average, so avg across macro equities quant etc) and therefore has 275bn to play with...275 / 163 = 1.7bn which is too small for a big pod that consists of several smaller pods (right?). After all, there are single pods that run $1-3bn+ themselves. In other words, I would understand this setup if each of the surveyor / GE / Ashler equivalents had like $5bn to split among a few small pods, but $1.7bn is too little (you can maybe create 2-4 pods out of that). 

Here's the description from the thread:



"The Senior PM title is part of an initiative to be able to manage more PMs as the firm grows. At Citadel, you have heads of Surveyor, Ashler, GE etc. to manage groups of PMs, but that structure doesn't really exist at MLP. Thus Senior PM / PM / Senior Analyst / Analyst etc. as well at MLP."


"Senior PMs don't run a "sleeve," this is more semantics but at least in terminology I use. It depends on how the group chooses to structure, but a senior PM gets an allocation from the firm (ie MLP is your biggest and only LP) and doles out capital to PMs who manage what I would refer to as sleeves, autonomously with caveat being the deal and culture - some by nature are entirely hands off with day-to-day process but have limits (vol targets, drawdown etc.) and others another way. Boils down to how you want to run your business. Effectively your own mini platform (or hedge fund) within MLP and a selling point to people who could be running their own fund (this is what MLP has been pitching in recent years and this strategy differentiates it from competitors like Citadel - come here and build your business, MLP provides the capital and resources, do the process and portfolio management the way you want, but within our risk limits, whereas Citadel imposes their process). If you do some digging you can find several examples of this, the most prominent being WorldQuant. This is how most large pods are structured. Many of the biggest / longest-tenured pods are multi-strategy, eg you could have a senior PM who built his business on healthcare long / short but now has a systematic PM, a TMT PM, etc. so the senior PM would not be in the weeds on what you're doing other than managing overall risk. Also keep in mind there are "analysts" that can run autonomous sleeves with no day-to-day involvement by the "PM", eg in a healthcare pod an analyst runs pharma sector entirely at their discretion because maybe the overall PM is a services guy - just like at Citadel. PM vs. Analyst at pods can just be a title. My understanding is that some Citadel "analysts" manage more gross than "PMs" at other places (several billion). This is why I'm skeptical on your PMs not being PMs point at MLP - because there are analysts that are what most people would call PMs."


"At the more senior levels, MLP is about building / scaling a business, which is why it's a good fit for what OP is focused on. The goal is growing teams, finding more areas to extract alpha etc. and doing it in a systematic scalable way."



So it seems like MLP gives senior PMs a few billion $, which they then divvy up among various PMs / sr analysts. This seems unfeasable given 163 senior PMs relative to total levered aum...how does this actually work? And how do the economics work here? Surely the PM is getting 18-22% of the pnl on their sleeve, so what does the Sr PM get? Does the Sr PM get paid based on how much equity they own in the Millennium GP / are they a partner (different from how regular PM is compensated)

 

Senior PMs are PMs at MLP. PMs are effectively sub-PMs/analysts

The above post isn’t really accurate MLP has the same business head structure as Citadel. The business leads typically don’t run capital. As an SPM you are interacting with management.
The structure is set up so that the business leads don’t have to interact with as many PMs and the sub-PMs are called PMs presumably because they would be butt hurt if they were just called analysts. 

 
Most Helpful

Thanks, a few questions: 

1. MLP claims SPMs can go to MLP to build their own businesses, but if Citadel PM = MLP SPM, how is it any different from Citadel or P72 / Baly? What's the value prop to senior PM?

2. What exactly does the SPM do? Is the job mainly position sizing / risk / portfolio mgmt + sizing up sub-PM best ideas in the center book? When you say "interacts with MLP mgmt", does this just mean meet with Izzy a few times a month?

3. Does MLP SPM = Citadel PM and PM = Citadel analyst?

4. GMV: MLP has $62bn aum, @ 5-6x leverage this means each pod has $2-2.5bn of gmv (341bn notional / 163 SPMs). Does this entail 2-4 PMs (effectively sub-PMs) running sleeves of $500M - $1bn and working under the SPM?

5. Headcount: Saw a video where some L/S MLP SPM said he has a team of 19...seems very big. What's the typical headcount? 

6. Comp: How does comp work? In a typical pod structure, my understanding is the pod gets 20% of their pnl and the PM splits this with his analysts / associates. PM ends up taking 10-14 percentage points of that 20, then a few ppt go to the analysts (analysts running sleeves get 5-10% of the pnl they generate), then the remainder goes to the associates etc. At MLP, how does this work...I'd imagine that someone with the regular PM title can command more than 5-10% elsewhere, so if MLP is paying a "sub-PM" / PM 10-15%, what's left over for the SPM? Could you share an example with #s?

Thanks!

 

To answer your Q1 & Q2:

 Yes, most of the SPM title does not hold significant account, you are right on the branding as PMs bounce around. Typically, these are hired as lateral to setup a new book, but there has been instances where a SPM is given more autonomy on risk/sizing than a PM in scenarios where both strayed away from targeted strategy / returns. SPMs at MLP usually are very involved with the trading, idea generation as well as portfolio mgmt, sizing etc. – this is inherent, given the MM structure. Associate PMs play a part here, they spend a lot of time with them, and for any given team there are usually 3–4 seeds per se. Terms such as 'centre books' vary pod to pod, some have a central theme running ideas to manage risk, others have different ways of attributing P&L translating to different uses of a SPM. Interacting with senior management usually mean the global heads, and definitely BD to talk through new pockets of business – whether that's new strategy, people, offices, you name it. There are over 300 PMs at Millennium, and interaction with Izzy is frequent, but not near a few times a month, and it's usually very macro–driven.

 

It depends on the group. See Tamridge and Meridiem. Some "SPMs" run groups that are more akin to normal pods at other firms ie SPM + analysts. Others have multiple risk takers and strategies. It depends on the deal you have with the firm.

 

SPM = larger book, direct payout agreement with firm (= "PM" at Citadel)

PM = some direct carve out and running narrower set of strategies under SPM. Could be considered "Sr. Analyst" or "APM" at other places (or Analyst in some Citadel divisions).

Analyst = no direct economics

 

I had an interview with a SPM at Millennium last year. Similar to one guy mentioned in the thread, this SPM wants to build his own business instead of being a PM in the pod. My assumption is that they might need to or could build their own trading system etc. and can take these things with them when they leave the company.

Feels like SPM has more flexibility than a normal PM, and their relationship with the firm is more like partnership instead of employment. The firm will provide the resources they need to build a business and invest in them.

 

Why is it that none of the really senior people at millennium (head of equities / macro, CIO etc…anyone on the website) are former SPMs / PMs / people that actually spent time at millennium?

Basically all the senior people are / have been new hires from sellside, why is that? Very different vs senior folks at Citadel P72 Balyasny

 

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