A 200k Dollar Decision
As a rising hs senior I have two options. I ask that you evaluate both and provide me reasons to pick the one of your preference. Keep in mind that I want to become a banking analyst after graduation (hopefully in a solid M&A group) and exit to MM PE soon after.
1) Apply Early Decision to Cornell University: This would entail over 120k in debt and a great burden on my parents (they do not qualify for financial aid but would still have a tough time paying). I think I would get in Early Decision but in the regular decision round things become a lot less predictable.
2) Avoid Early Decision (which is binding) with the intentions of attending Rutgers University as an instate student who is very likely to receive at least 10k in merit aid. This would make cost of attendance around 200k dollars less than Cornell (hence the title). But there are some sub-options:
a) Get a <abbr><abbr title="Masters in Finance">MSF</abbr></abbr> from MIT or Vanderbilt (which would cost around 90k and 80k respectively).
b) Transfer after two years into the McIntire School of Commerce (Reasonably transfer friendly and a solid two year program)
Shoutout to the veteran WSO members who have contributed so much information that I consume on a daily basis. Thanks in advance for the guidance.
Cornell hands down.
McIntire is awesome. Just to let you know, more than a half of accepted transfers (25 accepted in total) are from Virginia community college system, so take that into consideration. PM me if you have any questions about transferring to the comm school.
On one hand I see that on Linkedin a few Rutgers grads do land SA and FT positions but then again the branding of Cornell over an entire career may justify the cost. Still can't decide honestly.
Sure, you can see a few on Linkedin. But then again, try search for Cornell grads in FT positions and it would take you at least a day. Not to mention the intangibles (ex. pride, my dad who is alum tears up every time he hears the chimes) and the "fringe benefits" (membership in the Cornell club in NYC, etc)
UVA or Cornell will do you best. I think there is one kid in my analyst class from Rutgers, but there's like 6 from UVA and 4 or 5 from Cornell (out of a total of 90 for coverage / product groups)
With this much money on the line I can't help but think that I could be that one kid from Rutgers even if it meant a far more difficult path. Thanks for the input man.
There are 8-9 people from RU that landed SA roles at BB banks last year. However, I do think that class was exceptionally strong, and that may not be the norm (although this years class is strong as well).
Check your PMs.
$120K isn't anything to shrug off lightly. Even if you get the highest paying finance jobs out there debt like that will be with you for a while assuming you don't want to live like a grad student on a stipend.
What about some schools ranked in between Cornell and Rutgers where you may be able to qualify for merit aid?
I wonder if UVA or some other schools would be willing to make a competitive offer given your acceptance to Cornell. here's what I'd do, assuming you're confident you'd get into both Cornell & UVA:
-contact admissions/alumni networks for UVA, see if they're willing to work with you -if they are, tell Cornell what they're offering, pit the two against each other -do the same for other schools you may be interested in (perhaps another top public like UNC) -if you have potential for getting money from multiple schools, I wouldn't apply to anything binding
if you're confident you can get into Cornell early, I'm betting you have the profile to be competitive at a lot of other schools.
also, for reference, 120k in loans (based on my monthly payment & rates when I had debt) would be about 900-1k a month, essentially a 2nd rent payment.
Sadly, through experience and high school classmates that I know, Cornell is very stubborn on only matching financial aid from other Ivies, Duke, MIT, and Stanford. Classmates who got admitted to schools like Berkeley, UMich, WashU, still couldn't get Cornell to match FA.
That's accurate for other ivy league schools as well. They don't need to compete with state schools (UVA may be the only exception, big maybe)
Cornell.
The debt burden isn't overwhelming. I paid back $35k of loans BC of debt
UVA is a great school - know tons of guys that worked @ very legit shops for IBD. I'm more curious why if you can get into COR ED, why not apply to other IVY schools? I thought that PRI / HAR / YAL got rid of ED and went w/ the non-binding early action, but it's been awhile.
Was thinking the same thing. A number of schools like Boston College have early action instead of early decision.
I don't think I'd get into Wharton or HYP. Even Duke would be a little iffy but Cornell has a solid history of accepting kids from my school with my stats.
Cornell is the clear choice in my opinion. If you work hard, you'd be on the track for a solid banking career. The other options have a lot of variables involved. Cornell has a proven history of setting kids up for wall street
two years at rutgers/2 years at target
Anyone see any issues with the two years at rutgers/2 years at a target path? Seems appealing if I'm on a level playing field with the other students at the target come recruiting season.
Transferring is never guaranteed, and its a tough process.
you're not on a level playing path. From what I've heard from kids still in college, SA recruiting occurs in the fall of your junior year. If you do 2+2, you will not have a single semester at the the target schools for grades, absolutely no network, and recruiting while trying to adjust. That sounds miserable. I stress the network part BC networking entails actually building relationships with people, and in the case of SA actually knowing upperclassman that will pull your resume out of a stack of 400 from COR.
If the goal is to save $60-70k by doing 2+2, I'd argue it's not worth it at all bc you definitely are not on a level playing field with your peers. For your first job, you are effectively buying the network for $60-70k.
I only emphasize the SA stint bc so many FT ibd jobs seem to come from conversions, so while you may actually get settled and develop a network fall of senior year, those jobs may not even be available.
I still fail to see why you would think you have a shot @ COR and no shot at the other Ivy schools. So much of it is a crap shoot. Pay the $100 app fee and see what happens.
Point taken. Comments on the Vandy/MIT MSF option? Both seem to place well. Obviously more risky and less conventional but this would save me around 100k.
No it wouldn't save you money. First of all, you would be spending 1 or 2 years away from working.
Again, its not guaranteed that you would be able to get into any of these programs.
If I were in your shoes I'd apply to Dartmouth or an equivalent.
Yea I'm considering Penn CAS ED just for the potential to transfer into Wharton but my odds here are really quite low.
I think a school of this tier would be worth the money but more realistically I can expect to get into Cornell or Northwestern or UVa
Honestly I want to get into PE more out of an interest in growing companies and being a long term investor rather than prestige or money. And for lifestyle reasons, I'd prefer a smaller firm to a larger one. Given all of this, the ultimate question becomes whether it is worth taking the risk with my non target state school or trying my luck with the best school I can get into.
which school in cornell did you get into
I am trying to decide if I should apply early decision. I would apply to Arts and Sciences
Do AEM if ur really set on finance
Mr. Aspiring Analyst (op) you should run some numbers based on each decision and present your theory to the group.
My friend's dad teaches at Rutgers - he's a pretty smart dude. i don't see the point of going into debt for college when you can go to a perfectly fine school otherwise.
Rutgers has an excellent Econ program and if you can get into the honors college there that would be a major plus. A program like that can get you to where you want and for a fraction of the price. Just watch out for all the blow and distractions at Rutgers, since you're from NJ you're probably already aware of RU's reputation with that stuff amongst other things.
itsanumbersgame
Here are some more exact figures to give you guys a better understanding of the situation:
Estimated Family Contribution per year: 35k (this is the most my parents can pay)
Option 1: Apply ED to Cornell (for the significant boost in admission chances) Cost of Attendance: 67,613(x4) = 270,452 270,452 - (35x4) = 130,312 in debt Note: Many private universities' financial aid calculators have all said they would give me zero aid... I think given my parents' special circumstances I may be able to negotiate but for now nothing is guaranteed.
Option 2: Attend Rutgers University Cost of Attendance: 20,000(x4) = 80,000 (assuming 10k in merit aid due to my 2290 SAT and solid GPA)
Option 3: Rutgers + MSF Note: Would only pursue this option if I gained admission to a top tier MSF Cost: 80,000 + 90,000 (approx cost for 1 yr MSF) = 170,000 170,000 - (35x4) = 30k in debt
As far as the two year transfer idea, I think I'll eliminate it for now due to the difficulty of securing an SA role and the minimal savings as JackandDaniels mentioned.
So WSO, Which of the above would you go for if you were in my position?
When you calculate the cost of the MSF, you also have to calculate a year lost from working. For example, if you could have had a 70k job and tuition is 90k and its a one year program then the total cost is 160k
2290 should get you a full ride to my knowledge. I have a friend who has a similar SAT score and got some financial aid on the side, he was getting paid something like 3k a semester (or maybe 3k/year) at Rutgers.
EDIT: Also, don't think so much about the MSF right now. Focus on the near future and doing what you can to get into IB from the school you go to.
In extremely similar circumstances, I chose Rutgers with 13k/yr in merit aid (2330 SAT). Im also in the honors college and I'm not sure how it's helped me so far, but Rutgers alumni have been very forthcoming with advice/internships. I chose Rutgers over Stern because of money and also because it's easier to stand out in a crowd. Just something to think about, but obviously you're intelligent so you'll be fine regardless.
Is your estimated family contribution just what your parents can pay, or did you actually put in the numbers into the Cornell financial aid calculator? Because I'm a freshman at Cornell (starting tomorrow), and i had basically the same family contribution of 35k. Cornell awarded me 20k a year in scholarship + 10k in loans to cover the rest of the costs.
The issue is that the Cornell financial aid calculator says my parents should be able to pay the full amount, when in reality even if they pushed themselves they could only find 35k per year to put towards my education. I believe I have "special circumstances" to warrant more aid so maybe they'll give me something but I can't depend on it.
Option 4
Go to the University of Amsterdam, ranked 55th in the world, and study Economics and Business. The course is taught in English and it costs $10,000 p.a. as an American. The legal drinking age is 16, the weed is great and Dutch women are stunning. You can travel throughout Europe for long weekends, learn Dutch, get good internships in a slightly less competitive environment and gain international experience.
http://www.uva.nl/en/education/bachelor-s/bachelor-s-programmes/item/ec…
Terrible idea
I was actually considering Ivey and McGill but they really aren't that cheap so not worth it at all.
Let's look at the big picture. Working in this industry, what's $200K in the long run
It's de minimis
Seriously though
I'm not saying this figure overwhelms the analysis, just that it's not insignificant.
Hey, trust me, I've read the Buffet literature and can appreciate the gospel of compound returns, but if we're taking that tack (jumping off your last point) we have to balance that figure against a) however much OP's odds of getting into IB are improved by paying the $200K, along with b) how important getting into IB is to OP's life plan/fulfillment, along with c) a dose of realism about having the discipline and luck to invest his/her money and hit a 10% compound rate in order to turn a cool 12 sticks.
That said, if we're purely talking numbers, your financial run is only half of the argument. We need to consider the opportunity cost, so how does $12MM compare to a) the amount OP thinks his odds of securing a yob in IB are increased by ponying up the $200K, multiplied by b) his lifetime earnings if he secures the IB job less lifetime earnings if he doesn't, part b being inflated along the way at 10%.
Obviously there are a lot of unknowns, e.g. OP ends up going to Rutgers for CS and starts the next Facebook, but I would venture a guess that otherwise part b is a pretty fucking substantive figure. So if it comes down to part a, well I guess OP is trying to estimate an assumption by tapping into the collective body of knowledge (and unknowledge) on WSO...
OP, transferring into Wharton from CAS is very difficult. After your first year, you need to have a 3.7+ (usually 3.8+ GPA) covering specific classes that tend to not have grade inflation ie you will need to be getting A's against those same Wharton kids your freshman year to get a shot. I looked into transferring from CAS to Wharton as a freshman and ultimately decided against it / I wouldn't have made it anyway. The transfer process is a straight GPA cut. Wharton has X spots (say 15 for transfer) and they take the top 15 GPAs that satisfy that requirement usually close to a 3.8 GPA. It's not like you take a bunch of joke anthropology / sociology classes w/ overly inflated grades - the classes are definitely competitive.
Getting an econ degree is not a huge disadvantage to Wharton. Wharton has a slight edge for sure, but it's what you make of the Penn experience. Reality is that IBD / PE is a bunch of number crunching that requires the math skills of a 6th grader; you may find yourself better served by being exposed to more liberal arts classes, where you will develop other soft skills / writing. I took more than my fair share of Wharton finance / acct classes - it's not a huge deal.
Generally also think the debt load is not a huge deal if you are dead set going into IBD. If you do something like TFA / art curator, then it's a different discussion.
I think you should apply to the best schools and come back to the boards in 6 months when you actually have a decision to make. Until then, apply to the best schools and stop fretting over potential decisions you don't even need to make yet
Do the UVA track. UVA is substantially less than Cornell and by shortening your time away from somewhere like Rutgers you save a lot of money either way. Have you considered trying to apply to UVA now or even transferring after one year at Rutgers? I'd guess that UVA probably has the same (more or less) network and OCR opportunities that Cornell would, and is going to be around ~$15k less per year than Cornell would all in.
I think UVA ought to be around $40-$45k all in (including room and board), so granted you would only have to pay between $5-10k out of pocket. If that's all the debt you had, just do the math. The MOST you'd pay if you did 4 years at UVA would be $40k, which over the span of 4 years is entirely manageable. If it isn't, your first year bonus would probably cover it (lol). UVA and Cornell are both just far superior in terms of their standing in BB's and what not compared to Rutgers. Could you do it from Rutgers? Absolutely. But that's a much more uphill battle. Rutgers isn't terrible and you'd have a great story to tell if you chose Rutgers for financial reasons.
To be honest, Cornell just doesn't make sense. If you like a place like UVA or are ALREADY planning on transferring from Rutgers, don't bother wasting your time at either Cornell OR Rutgers. Apply to UVA, hell, apply to UNC and UT Austin, too. There are some absolutely terrific state schools that would save you a load of money (relative to 4 years at Cornell). Given that money is tight, these state schools serve as a great way to cut your costs by 1/3 annually (regardless of in or out of state). Cornell is $60 or $65k/year no matter how you go about it, but keep in mind out of the Ivy's it's probably the one w/ the least amount of banking exposure. That being said, if you really LOVE Cornell, then do it. But in my opinion, I don't think it's worth $20k more per year than a UVA.
I'm currently struggling w/ the idea of transferring from a smaller southern private university after my sophomore year up to an Ivy league school that's close to home and has terrific banking exposure. I'm a huge legacy there and in hindsight I'd have saved around $40k all in having gone to my current school for the 2 years I have. Let me tell you that going through the situation that you're almost foreshadowing that the idea of transferring sucks. I don't know you but if I end up transferring I'm throwing away a school that I love and enjoy, great friends, fraternity, and a girlfriend of a year or so. It sucks, but you can't see into the future so if you have this pre-conceived notion of transferring you might have an incredibly difficult time if you attend say Rutgers and end up loving it and not wanting to leave, regardless of your aspirations (me and you have the same goals, my friend). Just food for thought, try and find a great school that's financially manageable that you can do 4 years at. Had I known I wanted to do banking as early as you, I would've totally gone about my college process differently. Best of luck to you.
While I am not saying that UVA is a bad choice, I would still go with Cornell (or another ivy league for that matter). UVA tuition is (direct quote) 60,062 to 61,202 for a non-Virginian, which is pretty much the same as Cornell tuition.
In addition, at Cornell there are many opportunities to receive private scholarships. Many families and foundations endow scholarships for all sorts of (sometimes quirky) categories, ex. Native Americans, people intending to enter the spa industry, etc. Chances are you will fall into at least a few of these.
Not to mention, there is a chance you may not be accepted into the UVA bachelor of Commerce program. Just another source of stress, when in Cornell you are accepted to your program from year 1.
I would say UNC and UT Austin are a huge drop off from Cornell, unless you get a top scholarship and/or into one of those special programs like the Business honours program or the Morehead or similar.
Hahaha OOS tuition for UVA is on par with Cornell. + McIntire has $5K differential tuition.
Do Cornell - you can always figure out the money. Is there some sort of grant or loan you can take to help your parents? You don't want to be saying "what if" throughout your entire career.
For SIU Carbondale vs. Cornell, my answer would be different. For Rutgers vs. Harvard with a $100K difference, my answer might be different. But it's a public Ivy vs a private Ivy. Study engineering, go in state, save $200k, get the same job on the way out, and laugh all the way to the bank in your rusty Honda (or BMW if you want to spend 1/5th of your savings on that)
The problem is, the public ivy is more expensive!
Has anyone calculated what the debt service on $200K is? One of my roommates in NY went $100K into debt for school and was paying an average of 8% interest (not tax deductible). So at $200K, just to tread water on the student debt, OP might need to shell out $1300/month.
If this were UMich vs Cornell, I'd call this a no-brainer. For Rutgers, I'd advocate in-state but it only works if you study CS or Engineering.
Rutgers. Study Engineering, where your school doesn't matter anywhere near as much as the technical interview.
They're both good schools, but Cornell is probably not worth going $200K into debt for when you can just as easily land at Google or IBM out of Rutgers. If you STILL want to give up a 50 hour work week on the west coast to do finance, you can always get an MFE, similar to what you suggested with MIT. Most MFE programs would kill to admit a CS or Engineering major from the US.
I know you want to do finance, but there is a better life in tech, and there is a better way to get to finance through tech as well, if you're willing to be patient. If you like money and investing, great! Save yourself $200K, and just study CS or engineering at Rutgers.
Oh and WSO, for the sixth year running, there is a world that exists west of the Hudson River and north of Yankee stadium, and not all of it revolves around finance. In this world, $200K buys you a house and perhaps retirement at 35 if you invest well.
Thanks IlliniProgrammer for a fresh prespective. This is exactly what my dad (an engineer) was trying to sell me on.
If you want to do engineering, Cornell engineering is one of the top in the world and THE top in the ivy league.
Anyways this is irrelevant since OP clearly stated that he wants to enter the financial industry.
I would say that Rutgers gets roughly the same recruiting attention from Google, IBM, even some of the hedge funds like Citadel, as Cornell does. Why? Because smart kids go there too, and because we can filter out most of the idiots in a technical interview. There is less signaling required in tech.
If you take a look at his posts, his (wise) father and I are in agreement on this, and he does see engineering as a perfectly good career path, and it gives plenty of options for grad school and laterals.Look, I did my undergrad at UIUC and today I'm doing pretty darned well (some are doing better). I don't think undergrad hurt me. What would have hurt me would have been going $200K into debt for Cornell over UIUC.
Haven't you heard? The world is flat, and anyone who tries to escape via the Lincoln / Holland tunnel falls off into oblivion.
@IlliniProgrammer do you enjoy this New Yorker cover?
http://caninechronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NewYorker-Magazin…
that's one of my all time favorites
We need to have a Jaywalking episode where Jay asks Chicagoans to point out Long Island on a map and then asks New Yorkers to point out Lake Michigan.
So glad somebody is speaking some sense here. All to often I see kids automatically spewing out "target or bust" with no real understanding of what the implications of a massive debt load are.
do not go to rutgers. target cornell aem, uva mcintire, michigan ross, nyu stern, penn SAS, dartmouth, brown, duke, indiana kelley as safety
Indiana should not be in this list
i don't disagree, its not close to the others but is fine as a sure thing safety
Here is a decision that OP has to make for himself, and that is what kind of a life or a career he wants.
If you are happy as a engineer in New Jersey, then Rutgers would be fine. Since your dad is a computer engineer, I would be surprised if he couldn't help find you a decent job somewhere local. Nothing wrong with this.
However, you seem to be a very ambitious guy (with lofty goals and a high SAT score to match it). You even mentioned that you would be interested in working in London. In this case, I would look only at the top universities in the world (of course apply to safety schools). I have seen first-hand how fiercely loyal alumni at Cornell (applies to other places too) are. Where I live at least, its not uncommon for alumni to raise funds to be able to support local students.
Especially in foreign countries a non-ivy/oxbridge league degree will be something you will find yourself explaining for life. Rightly or wrongly, places like the UK, Singapore, and Hong Kong are incredibly elitist. On the other hand, with a ivy league degree you could get a VERY well paid job in the summer teaching SAT or whatnot.
Since you are living in NJ and there is a bit of summer left, I would definitely go visit Cornell and some of the other schools mentioned that are top tier (Dartmouth, UVA) and determine whether you would regret not going. Go visit NYC, check out the alumni clubs there (Cornell Club, Yale Club, etc) and also Weill Cornell and the new Cornell Tech construction site (I am not sure if they would let you, if they don't just look it up online). If you turned down this once in a lifetime opportunity, could you live with yourself?
Alternative idea: Rutgers engineering for undergrad; HBS or Stanford GSB for grad school; pocket $50K in savings over just doing Cornell for four years.
Look, 1/3 of the rank and file on Wall Street went to Cornell; the other 2/3 went to UPenn or NYU. There is probably going to be some overselling of Cornell on this board, especially among students who are seeking jobs. OP will have to decide whether Cornell is worth 20% of a career's NPV worth of income when the difference between Rutgers and Cornell isn't really that big outside of finance. And Rutgers always gives you the option of an MBA from an elite business school like Harvard or Stanford. That is an option you don't get if you're already up to your eyeballs in debt.
Personally I think it's a little kooky to go $200K into debt for Cornell over Rutgers. (Not Cornell over UW Milwaukee... not Cornell over some ho-hum state school... Cornell over RUTGERS) These people will also later try to convince you to spend $2000/month on Manhattan in four years once they've had you rack up enough debt that you owe $1000-$1500/month in interest on it. (I don't know what they plan on having you eat on $4500/month- roughly the Street paycheck for first year analysts after taxes are withheld .)
IlliniProgrammer Do you really believe that Rutgers ha s a better international reputation than Cornell? Have you ever been outside the United States?
Also, how did "1/3 of the rank and file on Wall Street went to Cornell; the other 2/3 went to UPenn or NYU." This is clearly VERY inaccurate .
Feel free to correct yourself, but I had to point out how absurd what you just said is.
uva or cornell will be great
I'm from Canada, so unable to comment on the schools, but have experienced a similar dilemma when choosing an MBA. Basically it came down to a regional school with what would have been a full scholarship vs. a top national school with no financial aid (about a 100k difference in cost). I opted for the better school, and kick myself at least once a week for being such a naive idiot and subscribing to the type of thinking many of the young aspiring financiers in this community fall prey to. A couple of tidbits that I've picked up on since:
1) School brand is important, but far less important than one might think. When networking I've found that people are willing to connect and champion for me because we click on a personal level, not because I went to a particular school. As far as I'm concerned school prestige is basically a myth. Yes, you will have access to some amazing professors, but for every great one there is some loon who thinks behavioural econ should be a core subject.
2) The things I cared about when I made that decision are far less important to me now (i.e. money and job title). As young adults a few years can and will result in a tremendous amount of change. Post-secondary decisions can be a pretty shitty deal, as we have to guess what we think we will value in 2, 4, or however many years, while committing to a significant financial burden.
3) When you do land your dream job you will realize one of two things: you have no interest in devoting the next X years of your life to a 90 hour work week, or; it's as lame and unfulfilling as any other job you've held in the past.
The cost of that debt should really weigh on the decision you are about to make. Keep in mind that you'll have that extra $1,000 a month payment for the next 15 or so years.... which may not seem like a lot, but if you have any reservations about the decision, will really begin to piss you off as you think of all the other things you could be spending that money on. It should also be noted that's going to be about $30k in interest over the life of the loan....
More than anything I just want to avoid the pressure to make the most money possible every year of my life until I'm 40. With a 270,000 dollar education on my shoulders I wouldn't be able to justify joining a startup or turning down a gig at a megafund for a MM that better suits my interests. There's a certain peace of mind that comes with financial independence, and not needing the next paycheck to pay off debt. I also feel like I'm not accounting for the fact that a second round of debt would come soon after Cornell with a seemingly compulsory MBA.
Lizard Brain said "Let's look at the big picture. Working in this industry, what's $200K in the long run
It's de minimis
Seriously though"
^^^This point also makes a lot of sense to me though. A career is 40 years, and any advantage to start out can grow over time if one capitalizes each step of the way. Plus the networking advantage to being around hundreds of like-minded students rather than just a few dozen. I don't want prestige for the sake of prestige, but the practical purposes leave me indecisive.
I'm not saying it's too much money, but it's not deminimis.
This point is moot. He's not choosing whether to spend $200k at Cornell or invest it tomorrow. You're using future returns he could achieve on money he doesn't even have to discourage him from investing in his education. The kid needs actual advice not this bullshit unattainable IRR.
Since this conversation is heavily dependent on the numbers I wanted to clarify that it wouldn't be 200k of debt it would be ~130k but since I consider my finances and those of my parents to be joint it is still spending 200k.
Its not like Cornell----> IB is a cakewalk... They are the largest ivy by far as well as the most competitive, and at the same time the least prestigious . What this means is that you will be competing against MANY more of your peers for the same/less number of spots than other targets.. if you can get into AEM, that would at least almost guarantee a solid finance job coming out of cornell (but not IBD), and econ is more risky given the grade deflation/competiveness/theoretical nature (hard to get a 3.7+).. The thing is, right now as a HS student you have no idea how you would perform at Cornell, and there's a good chance you will be "average" or maybe even "slightly above average" regardless of how much effort you put in, or how intelligent you think you are, that's just the nature of elite colleges. Unfortunately, being average at Cornell isn't going to cut it for IB. Malcolm Gladwell goes into this issue in great lengths in "David and Goliath", and compares the excessive number of students at Brown that start out as Premed, but eventually switch into a humanities major after being "weeded out" by excessive curves/competitiveness/ deflation of self esteem.. If those kids (all of whom are in the top 1% of the country by standard metrics of intelligence) were at a state school (non Berkeley/mich obviously) they would have close to a 4.0 and could have easily become doctors, but instead graduated with an English/History degree and went into an unrelated field. At Rutgers, if you put In the same amount of effort that you would have at Cornell, you'll be at the top of your class, get close to a 4.0, and if you network effectively you will have a good shot at banking (being a big fish in a little pond). Cornell might give you a better shot at banking at first glance but you're not really thinking about the number of variables that go into that (and you are a very little fish in a big, competitive, and intelligent pond) But this isn't taking into account the intangible value of an ivy degree, which is a value that you personally will have to quantify.
Good point. However Gladwell also uses the hockey players example in Outliers to show that even a small advantage to start out with (in that case being a few months older but in this case going to a better school) grows exponentially over time (this is called the Matthew effect).
I'm still leaning towards avoiding the debt at the moment though.
OP, you really better hope your stats are off the wall so much that you are confident with those sort of acceptances. The college admissions process for undergrad is insane. Are you in-state for UVA?
Haha I'm not very confident and my stats are not off the wall. From talking to an admissions consultant, looking at my school's history with Cornell on a site called naviance, and viewing hundreds of results on college confidential, I'd give myself a 40% shot at Cornell A&S in the ED round. But Flurite you're right the discussion does take for granted that I would get in.
That's fine. I just came out of the whole admissions process and I can tell you it definitely is quite humbling. It's usually the first time anybody our age has learn how to take no for answer in a process that has a pretty large effect on our lives. For Cornell, 85% of people are turned down, and most of those people aren't total knuckleheads.
For me, I got into 1 school, waitlisted by 5, and rejected by 4. Thankfully UVA was one of the schools that accepted me off the waitlist and I'll be going there, but I definitely came out of the whole process with a different mindset then what I went in with. My suggestion is to keep your options open for now, come back with as many acceptances as possible, and then make a decision from there.
Holy Snaps! You guys do pay a lot for education down in the US. I think we max out at $50grand. Maybe a better decision for you to move to Canada, finish your education and go back.
Ivey would actually be close to 50k for me. McGill is around 30 I believe but in general not worth it.
.
How many people in this thread telling you to go to Cornell at all costs were actually laden with over $120k debt at age 22?
In my opinion: don't do it. You have other options which open a lot of doors for the fraction of the costs. Statistically speaking, even if you go to Cornell, you probably won't get a top BB IBD offer, because a tiny fraction of people do. You're so young, and so much can change in a few years. What if you want to go into policy? Or pursue academia? Or need to do a graduate degree? What if the market doesn't go well and your bonus is tiny? Debt seems like an arbitrary number when you don't have to pay it off, but six figures of debt will stifle you.
Rutgers will rule you out of nothing and you can easily go to New York to network. If anyone asks why Rutgers and you mention that it's a great school and merit aid made it a financially attractive offer.
I went to what people would call a top target and even though 3-6 people ended up at each of the major BBs each year for banking, a huge number of people apply. Getting into banking is not guaranteed, and although I loved my undergrad, I would never recommend someone to take over a hundred thousand dollars in debt as a teenager to go.
I was in your shoes this time last year (I'm a rising freshman at top ug bschool Wharton/Stern/Ross) and my dilemma was either focus on getting into my state school (top public, but semi target) and trying to work from there or applying ED to my current school and hoping for the best, believing I wouldn't get much or really any aid. I bit the bullet and decided to apply ED. To my surprise I was awarded with a half tuition scholarship to attend the school. Obviously this is anecdotal and no indication of your outcome, but don't sell yourself short. All the top Ivies are usually quite generous with aid. Also just so you know, the one and only criterion to be able to back out of an ED decision (if you weren't able to afford it) is ability to pay. If you can't pay, you can 100% back out of ED, so you're not trapped. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I'd love to help
Cornell
There are also a couple offsets to pay for college. I knew several student athletes at Penn who were RAs. That gets you free room and usually a decent meal plan ($10k / year). There are a number of ways to make the debt more manageable without ruining your college experience.
And even if you went to Wharton or Harvard, it's still a crapshoot for IBD. We would get 450 applications to our IBD group from Penn (that's just classic, not including S&T, ER, PWM). Maybe there are 24-36 first round interviews. the hardest thing is just getting an interview BC there are more than 40 kids from Wharton with a 3.8. Then you have connections taking a couple slots and some kids just out hustling you. There are no guarantees at all.
Go to Rutgers for a year, crush it, and transfer and try to get a scholarship. Or go to Rutgers and network. It is a very well regarded school in the tristate area. No guarantees you will get into IB and 120K in debt is crazy. Or go to community college for 2 years, crush it, and transfer to a school and get a scholarship. The debt isn't worth it.
Im in a very similar position now. Rising senior in high school, looking to go into IB. However, I have a discount to PSU so I figure my 4 year costs at each school will be Penn State- 75k Michigan-230k WashU- 230k Penn- 240k Columbia- 240k My parents will probably pay for about 80k. My current plan is apply to them all, if I get into Penn or Columbia go there and figure out money later. If I got some scholarships to Michigan or WashU Id think about going there, otherwise Ill go to PSU. Ideas?
Are you including the financial aid you expect to receive in the above numbers? Some seem a bit low.
Yeah good point. Its probably another 20-30k on the ones other then Penn State
I am old by this board's standards (I just turned 30) so I hope I can shed some light on this decision from the perspective of someone who has seen a lot of people take on education debt, change their careers, etc.
First, 120k is a SHIT TON OF DEBT, especially to take on as a 22 year old college graduate. This WILL impact your life, possibly quite seriously. You will likely need to do some combination of putting off having children, buying a home, helping out loved ones if they're in a tough financial spot, taking nice vacations, etc.
If you're deciding to take on 6 figures of debt or not, your default decision should be "NO" unless there are some very compelling reasons suggesting otherwise.
In your case, I don't think there's any compelling reason to take on 120k in debt.
First, you don't really know if you want to be a banking analyst. Yes, I know you probably don't want to hear that, but believe me, you'll change a lot and learn a great deal about yourself in college, and I don't think it's wise to go make a life altering financial decision based on your decision to enter a career that you still aren't that familiar with. You may very well find yourself in a position where there's a little voice in your head asking whether you want to do finance anymore, and then a larger voice will start piping up, screaming at you to pay down your debt because you're going to be in a financial emergency once you graduate. College should be a time for figuring yourself out, and taking on all that debt will make that process much more difficult.
Second, I don't think that you should be asking yourself about going to get an MSF or even transferring our of whatever school you end up going to. That's really putting the cart before the horse. In fact, it's putting the cart before the horse before you even have a horse. Worry about transferring if you can't do what you want from whatever school you go to. Worry about going to grad school if you can't see a way to get to where you want to go without that credential.
Third, if you're motivated enough to be posting on this board as an 18 year old, you'll have a good shot of getting a banking job from most schools, assuming you network aggressively, get good grades, etc. It will be easier from Cornell than Rutgers, but I'm sure Rutgers sends people to banking too.
Fourth, why are you limiting yourself to 120k debt at Cornell vs. Rutgers? Apply to 6-8 schools, some reaches and safeties, let the chips fall where they may, and see what works best.
I took on a lot of undergrad debt (not quite 120k, thankfully) to go to a good private school (not quite as good as Cornell, but one that still sends a lot of people to finance jobs) and I often ask myself whether it was worth it. Thankfully, a recent windfall from my parents has lowered the monthly payments on my debt significantly, but my 20s were more stressful, and my college years not as stress-free as they could have been, thanks to the loans I took out.
I have friends in their 20s and 30s with 100-200k in debt from MBA programs--they're making much more money and have better career paths than most college grads--and even they sometimes confide to me that they wonder if B school was worth it.
TL;DR: Debt fucking sucks, it will make it much harder to do other things with your life, and I would advise you to not make any life altering financial decision on the basis of your career goals as an 18 year old. PM me if you want to talk more.
RU has very strong placement, and it continues to get better due to the Road to Wall Street program's launch 4ish years ago. Placement has been strong since 2006, took a dip 2009-2012, and then took off again.
Here were the summers this year out of the program:
Sales and Trading: 10+ – Morgan Stanley, Barclays, Goldman Sachs, CS, Guggenheim, BAML Investment Banking: 9+ – Goldman Sachs, CSFB, Barclays, Citi, Deutsche Bank Credit/Equity Research: 4+ – Citi, Barclays, Deutsche Bank Finance: 5+ - Goldman Sachs; Morgan Stanley, BlackRock, Blackstone, Prudential Private Equity: - 1 StepStone Capital
Its settled then. Don't apply ED to Cornell, but rather EA to a bunch of places. and regular decision too.
If/when you are accepted to a ivy league or similar school, then you can decide. Go to a accepted students day. That should fix any silly thoughts of thinking Rutgers is a better decision than, say Cornell or Virginia.
Good luck
Thanks
Or go Navy. Leave the service with a free ride to just about anywhere or damn close to a free ride and quite a bit of savings along the way. You also get to put veteran on your résumé. There are times that will absolutely fucking suck, but it's a good way imo.
It was compelling at one point but five years of service is too much for me.
Dolores ducimus ipsum quas consequuntur perspiciatis necessitatibus perspiciatis. Non qui est iste voluptas et. Quidem quisquam et non enim libero. Aut cum et assumenda et. Consequatur laboriosam iste non eos nostrum sapiente.
Illo dolor odit repudiandae fuga porro quam. Veniam eum tenetur consequuntur quia alias. Eos amet molestias eos rem ad.
Quis adipisci et vero soluta explicabo sed cum hic. Impedit minima expedita a. Officia consequatur nulla natus vel consequatur aut praesentium. Asperiores nemo eum assumenda inventore voluptatem officiis. Ab est ullam inventore voluptatibus sed aliquid. Suscipit similique et iusto incidunt et ab eveniet. Enim consequuntur quia nam deserunt earum.
Quis tempora quis omnis culpa omnis nisi voluptatem qui. Odit sapiente eveniet magnam quia iusto dolores. Ex officia voluptates et in non et. Nostrum necessitatibus et nemo debitis vel. Aut eos enim dolor.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Ut iste autem repudiandae eos expedita placeat qui. Officiis dolorum nemo rerum consequuntur ipsa error.
Vel vel aut rerum ducimus quo voluptates reiciendis. At dolorum cum et consequatur ullam occaecati ut quod. Non ullam debitis atque labore omnis.
Voluptatum natus quasi voluptas consequatur ex. Nobis deleniti similique totam. Nesciunt ipsum facilis est dolorum expedita qui. Suscipit amet autem impedit.
Dignissimos quod sed molestias repellendus. Qui atque asperiores et qui. Enim reprehenderit vel quo perferendis totam. Debitis vitae minima aliquid quasi nostrum voluptatem.
Earum illo magni possimus sit ut tempore fugit facere. Nemo aut exercitationem quis perferendis qui ut. Officiis sunt doloremque optio quia. Aut ipsa praesentium laudantium mollitia. Est ut magni et et et et vitae. Qui quis architecto minima ut consequatur est ullam culpa. Ratione quia exercitationem illo enim vel et.
Aut sit et voluptates tempore tempora. Temporibus a dolor aut. Aspernatur corporis suscipit nulla et omnis unde nihil.
Minus sed quibusdam voluptates et. Veniam quia cumque aperiam quibusdam est sit. Vitae sunt praesentium exercitationem est ea rerum tempora. Voluptatem in omnis ut vel. Reiciendis omnis quasi exercitationem nesciunt laboriosam.
Inventore quas quae ratione tempore maiores libero maiores. Repellendus voluptas adipisci velit placeat molestiae laboriosam repudiandae. Numquam ad tenetur ipsa totam quia.
Sit dolores eaque ex laudantium voluptas iure sit. Vel sed exercitationem sunt quia qui et aspernatur. Doloremque veniam distinctio est id ut quos porro reprehenderit. Unde et error et commodi. Qui in cumque aut placeat. Non id cum illo.
Iste nisi quos fugit rem. Illo reiciendis ipsa eius aliquam vitae. Et saepe optio ducimus provident.
Dolor nihil reprehenderit in commodi quibusdam nemo vitae. Maiores tempore explicabo tempora sit cumque occaecati. Temporibus quibusdam inventore temporibus distinctio et voluptas eum. Sunt quae mollitia in eum.
Voluptatem voluptate nihil nulla labore. Qui ea deserunt molestiae placeat sequi mollitia. Illum exercitationem nemo quia commodi quisquam. Ad corrupti repellat modi quae alias quasi qui. Earum ut eos porro iste alias quia. Distinctio saepe alias expedita quidem error.
Quidem ut aliquam et dolore vel est commodi. Qui unde est alias magni. Debitis nisi architecto maiores perferendis illum laboriosam cumque quam. Vel facere consequatur minus exercitationem.
Nostrum numquam sunt eaque neque est dignissimos et enim. Itaque rerum corporis explicabo in velit veritatis cumque. Dolorum eaque dolor quia quae ea aut. Asperiores dolore non quis neque tenetur saepe.