Grind Culture: A Perspective from an Asian Undergraduate “Try-hard”
Recently came across a long X/Twitter Thread from "Helen Andrews," a white commentator talking about how detrimental "grind culture" is (which is allegedly brought in by Asian people), and seeing how half of WSO probably falls under that bucket, I'm curious to see how you guys view it.
For myself, I'd probably categorize myself as someone who isn't totally prestige-obsessed, but I do fit a lot of the stereotypes people have about “grind culture.” I generally just want to maximize my expected career value while working in something that I find interesting and that pays well enough to retire early, buy nice things, have a happy marriage with a (hot) woman who I love, and live in an affluent area. I'm willing to do what I have to do to achieve this, and I have a somewhat neurotic personality, so I spend most of my time working towards that goal, and that leads me to usually be focused on a hobby (usually fitness-related to maximize my health/physique) or studying/grinding "finance shit." I care about doing things that usually are "net positives" to my life, and I think that while I probably err on the side of being "unnecessary" about it and talk about it way too much (which I know some of the other finance guys specifically dislike me for), I don't really understand the issue with being a "grinder". I'm not a dick about it and I tend to get along with almost everyone (with the exception of the other finance guys), and I think that it’s good that I’m learning to work hard as a young person while trying to “figure it out,” and that by the time I’m my parents’ age I think in some way taking life so intensely now will make having a mid-life crisis far more manageable. Early on I’m also learning that because I try so hard at so many different things, I’m realizing that failure is okay, because I’ve shot so many shots and failed so many times as a result of being a “sweat/striver.” Also, I’m a student, so of course feel free to take this all with a grain of salt, as I’m sure I view the world through a very naive lens and I’ll reevaluate the way I look at things ten years from now when you have to send kids to a target elementary school to boost their odds, but for now I stand here.
Given all of that, personally, though I see what people mean about it having some negative societal effects, I don't really understand how anyone could logically choose any other path if they do care about having what most people care about (job which pays well and allows for early retirement, nice house, attractive SO, typical upper middle class shit), and I'd even argue that it does create a better society as a whole.
Whether intentional or not, you have younger people maximizing their life. On the looks side, they’re going to the gym. More relevantly, on the career side of things students are learning more about how the world works (I understand geopolitics/markets and their significance because of recruiting, for example). Whether it's a “grinder” trying to become a YC founder, doctor, finance bro, or whatever expert, it generally leads to a world where people are better at the things they do which should generally lead the world towards a place of more productivity and abundance in the long term in some long-term butterfly effect way (if you get what I’m pointing at).
Sure, I do think that to a degree “grind culture” takes the "magic" out of being able to enjoy life young to some extent, but I’d say that despite being someone who is a bit unnecessary about “the grind” and am slightly neurotic, I would still say that I have time for my hobbies and activities and it leads me to be better at handling stress, and I’d argue that kids like me who grew up with somewhat of a silver spoon in our mouths should be taking advantage of the opportunities that are given, especially if we had parents that came from nothing. It almost feels like the the most correct position to have, especially since that’s how my parents were. Plus, I don’t even think the “grind culture” is even that bad. I go out and party/drink like a normal student, I go to the gym frequently, I have other hobbies, I play my video games here and there, all while maintaining a high GPA, recruiting, doing stock pitches/case comps, doing intern work ~10 hours a week, and most of the kids I know who are also “tryhards” do the same. I just have to “work hard, play hard” and give up some weekends, but is there really anything wrong with that?
Because I don’t think so. Between the insufferable guy making the “REAL 2026 IB PRESTIGE LIST” and the guy who’s also complaining “bro you’re such a fucking tryhard,” “grind culture,” which has allegedly been pushed by Asian kids like us, has created a more educated, faster advancing society with more impressive people, more efficient markets, faster discoveries, and things that will end up being better for prosperity in the long run.
TLDR; Grind culture is a net positive for society
Also, I don’t mind getting ms but I would appreciate a comment if you disagree. Genuinely curious to hear other/differing perspectives
Well said. Having been in IB and PE, what I could say is the distinction in race amongst the 'grinders' blurs. In college, your pool of peers is much broader, but trust that once you get into any competitive field there becomes a commoditization of hard workers. For better or for worse.
Don't we want more hard workers though? I get that life isn't just about working hard and it's important to stop and smell the flowers but I'd say that having a generally hard working society makes "things happen." Whether it's someone creating something revolutionary to avoid "the matrix" or having smarter and smarter people enter industries every year, isn't that usually a good thing?
I guess I could see why people don't like it when observing places like China/Japan/Korea, but I'd say that the issue isn't that people have an emphasis on working hard and studying a lot, but these societies just have less opportunities because of other cultural norms and because these countries have been developed for a shorter amount of time than the US. For example, these East Asian societies often have much more rigid, centralized definitions of success. In South Korea, there is an immense cultural pressure to work for a 'Chaebol' (one of the massive family-owned conglomerates like Samsung or LG). If you aren't in that top tier, you’re often seen as having 'failed,' regardless of how hard you work.
Because these countries developed so rapidly (essentially compressing 100 years of Western industrialization into 30), they are still operating on a 'survivalist' mindset where you have to out-grind everyone else just to secure a spot in a very small circle of elite institutions, but I think that will change as more entrepreneurs sprout and time simply progresses.
Sure, I don't disagree with your point on a macro level. However, on a more relevant micro / individual setting, expect that excess competition breeds greed and fear. Those sentiments are the drivers of what we call a "cut throat" culture on this forum. This dynamic will become clear to you as you join the workforce. If you find yourself in this type of culture, hope that either you are (i.) better than the rest or (ii.) you can make it out without adverse effects to your career progression.
industrialization is the opposite of financialization
People like to places China/Japan/Korea all together, but in facts Japan is quite different from China/Korea in term of career opportunities. In China/Korea, you are almost done if you are unable to land top tier firms as fresh grad, but in Japan, you still have chance to lateral to top tier. There is a case of GS MD coming from Kyushu regional tier 4 school (almost anyone can get into) lateral from local banking experience and of course not nepo, this will never be happened in China/Korea.
Well done young lad. Keep up the mentality
It is your life, live it however you want. People here are generally going to agree with you because it’s WSO. Many of the people here are hardo and neurotic. If you asked the same question in a Peace Corps forum, people would call you insane.
You’d probably think people in Peace Corps are wasting their lives/potential. They’d probably think the same thing about you.
Only you can decide what is valuable in your life.
Comparing investment bankers to doctors in terms of making the world a better place is completely insane tho haha
Fair enough. I just don't understand how people can hate "grind culture" so much. You'd also be surprised how many of the other students recruiting disagree with the way I view this topic, as I come off as pretty hardo. The angle of comparing finance bros to doctors is more so that they are both in demanding careers that requires learning a lot really quickly, and creates a more educated youth. However, to entertain the comparison I actually do believe that people in finance making the market generally more efficient (financing "good" businesses/startups, allowing for risk taking) helps pretty substantially behind the scenes after you subtract out the horrible shit that goes on behind closed doors on Wall Street. Again, naive student worldview, but I think that seeing "good economics" being enforced in places like Argentina with Javier Milei makes me think that financial institutions are generally a substantial net positive to society, whether the people within are good or not.
I think it’s reasonable to want grind as you’ve explained for the life that you want. Again, that is your decision.
But please be under no illusion that you are working to make the world a better place. “Market efficiencies”, whatever that even means, do not make people as a whole happier. In the United States, for example, look at the stagnation of wages and the accumulation of capital and power in the hands of a small few.
Even still, whatever intangible benefit your intuition tells you exists as a result of “efficient markets” or financial institutions, I still think it is ridiculous to compare that to, say, a doctor working on a cure for cancer.
If you have time to party, hit the gym, and have other hobbies, you're not grinding hard enough.
Sure, but that's subjective. I don't think I'm grinding hard relative to others within this demographic (WSO people), but I meant in the context of the attached post. I spent much of high school maximizing my college application in terms of test scores and extracurriculars, which is what the original tweet was talking about.
People obviously weren’t able to pick up on the sarcasm and joke lol
Asians try to maximise everything because they lack originality / innovative abilities, in addition to being highly risk averse. Some of this may be luggage from being immigrants and a strong urge to fit into the western hemisphere.
Saying this while Asians are carrying what is literally the whole of the Tech industry on their backs is crazy cmon now
Tech is still predominately white though. Look at all of the Big AI scale ups. It's all white founders with the exception of Altman who is a Jew.
Also working in tech != innovating in it. Lots of hardworking smart Asians in the field. Doesn't mean they are founding successful companies.
Except for gigachad Jenson Huang.
White people are good at 0 -> 1
Asians are good at 1 -> 10, China is killing it right now
at least they don't commit a genocide then hide behind antisemitism like jews!
innovation = how to best optimize palantir for "you know what" in gaza ;)
Looking through your comments on other posts, you seem to just dislike Asians so you tend to make outrageous comments that aren't supported by data. Ironically (against your point), there are a disproportionate amount of Asians in c-suite roles when compared to other races and collegiate start-up/drop-out culture is pretty much entirely ran by Asian guys from Stanford/Berkeley right now too.
I think most people generally agree with these points and that you’re not saying anything radically against the norm. IMO most notable tid bits you mention are about certain people disliking that you “talk about it too much”, and about putting up a lot of shots and failing many times as a “sweat”. As someone who was exactly the same way for a while I think having this personality just serves to your overall detriment and you have to find ways to combat it or mask how much it means to you. The whole “chip on your shoulder” / grinder mentality in such a highly commoditized industry like finance is never conducive to actually building strong relationships, which is all this industry is about anyways.
I appreciate that. It's interesting though, I think only other people in finance dislike me for that, but I think maybe it's related to the industry specific part that you mentioned.
Keep up the grind man. Competition is the highest ever so more and more people are trying to shame hard workers into not working hard - the shamers do this because they feel inadequate. Stay humble, keep your head down and work hard, you'll get there and find people who are like-minded.
Grinding to get to where you want to be in life is something to be proud of. For many who don't have connections or an 'in' to Wall Street, working hard is the only path you have to get ahead.
Many Asians who grind are simply using what they have available to them (good brains, strong work ethic) to build their career. In turn, everyone else needs to step it up or risk getting left behind. This need to work harder / be career focused earlier does fundamentally change the culture of these colleges and professions. Students need to have their career decided on before entering undergrad which means college is less a period of personal discovery and experimentation.
Unfortunately we all must grind far more today than a generation ago just to wind up in the same place . We are in societal arms race for an upper-middle class lifestyle where each year we have to be more competitive (exclusive colleges, near-perfect GPAs, 99th percentile test scores, multifaceted hobbies, impressive internships, etc.)
Big issue with grindset is being naively deterministic and transactional. Grinders treat life like a project with inputs and meritable outputs - this is not a healthy worldview.
In early career it's easy to maximize objective stats (GPA, # of coffee chats, technicals), so when someone wins/fails, its given they did/didn't maximize enough. Grind matters here, but life isn't actually this objective and spelled out down the line.
The harmful grindset tendnecy is to treat everything too project-like. For example, you can't 'out optimize' your way to finding love or pomodoro clock your way to having 'succesful children.' These are subjcetive, often random, and human journeys that you can't 100% ascribe outcomes to your own doing. But maybe you don't care since you didn't specify 'loving relatinoship', so long as its with an "attractive SO."
I'd even say long-term career is just as subjective - the best investors/inventors/leaders all got lucky at the right time, in addition to their grind.
I'm not telling you to work less hard. Just be careful conflating 'working hard' with 'becoming a better person.' If you want to make society better, focus on the latter, not soley the first. As an Asian, I think that's what we get wrong often.
I specified happy marriage with someone in the first part, the second part about attractive SO was when i was referencing things people generally care about
oopsies - happy marriage S++ exit op
Very well put
People who shit on “hardos” / “grind culture” are generally the lazy people. Banking is an exception because the hours are so extreme and some groups push it way too far. In a college setting though, you can feel free to ignore. Hard work early on is analogous to investing early on, the returns compound over time. Having too much fun in your early to mid twenties can cost you multiples in career progression at the end. Of course, success is not linear so people who mess around can / do catch up and people who do everything right don’t make it. However, if you’re maximizing expected value, than grinding early is the way to go.
You’d think that but to their credit, they’re also generally hard workers.
Wait so your only problem is that people, who grind just as much as you, think that you are weird for talking about it all the time. That honestly seems like a you problem. Gotta realise not everyone wants to be talking about that stuff all the time.
I admire your mindset and respect that, at your age, you have an idea of how you want your life to play out and you'll do whatever it takes to get it.
A couple thoughts for you to wrestle with:
Fair enough
Yup, didn't mean to be harsh. It's an interesting topic and I really like seeing college kids willing to write and explore ideas. Keep doing it!
The problem with the grind mindset is choosing the wrong things to grind on. I had plenty of classmates who grinded their ass off for a 3.95 gpa and ended up with worse offers than the guy who had a 3.6 gpa but spent more time networking. I know plenty of coworkers who grind their ass off working in the office get passed over for promotion time after time by those who know how to play office politics. Heck, that's one of the main reasons behind the bamboo ceiling and lack of political representation. Asian Americans have a reputation of being the quiet, obedient demographic that can eat shit with a smile.
Working hard is important, but it's even more important to work smart.
Do what helps you achieve your life goals but spare me the mindset of "I'm doing his to make the world a better place"
You work in IB. You're doing it for the money and lifestyle it affords you. There's no noble pursuit to this.
Never said I’m doing it to make the world a better place. I’m saying that hard workers in general make the world better, whether it’s directly or indirectly
Obviously there are exceptions but generally speaking
Efficiency of thought and action vs mindless grinding is how people succeed. Successful people work just hard enough but do it efficiently (often because they are more intelligent and process faster) and are more likely to have a balanced life than grinders
It just gets to a point
Striving to achieve a goal that is meaningful to you is a natural part of being human. In this case, however, you're essentially participating in a rat race that convinces you to sacrifice the best years of your life (and beyond - I don't envy my MDs their lifestyle) and for what? To acquire meaningless material goods and status symbols? You're not changing the world, you're just sustaining the ruling capitalist class. You and I both. They're the only winners in all this. You'll see when you start working. As another user above commented, your life is yours to live as you want, but the sooner you wake up and realize what truly makes you happy and fulfilled, the better.
I think you're misinterpreting my message a bit. I am definitely not doing this to make the world a better place, but I think this culture creates a smarter society.
I'm doing this to be free faster and to set up my future family and (hot) wife, which ironically means I have to give up my years now. I'd be happy to be anywhere where I'm confident my children won't have a ceiling for achievement and a decent baseline floor, but I also want that while retiring earlier to have some for-fun job, so I can pursue what I find fulfilling while also having a high level of stability and knowing I can walk away anytime and not worry about anything.
You won't be free, though. Given your goals (getting married, setting up a family) you'll just end up like my MDs - golden handcuffs and all. Unless you're vigilant, lifestyle creep is real. That's the part about meaningless material goods and status symbols I was talking about. And you won't be able to retire earlier out of this job, unless you're willing to take a lifestyle "downgrade" for you and your family. Whole point is to realize that this entire pursuit is meaningless to begin with. Do what makes you happy and fulfilled.
Additionally, and more importantly on a philosophical level, "grind culture" wasn't even a thing back when these MDs were growing up and getting set in their careers, anyway. Hence the "I was traveling around South America and selling hotdogs part-time before stumbling into Goldman" stories you hear so often. More and more resources are flowing to the top, and inequality is getting worse and worse. We're all just perpetuating a system of exploitation by participating in this culture. Just read an article on WSJ about high school kids having to set up nonprofits and do internships before even setting foot in college. It's sick. The broad-based prosperity of the post-WW2 period has been replaced with a new gilded age where decadent plutocrats hoard an ever larger share of wealth. Our boomer parents and grandparents had to do precisely none of these things you describe to stake out a decent living for themselves. People need to wake up instead of throwing themselves in the meat grinder.
You act like grind culture is the "real" way the world works despite acknowledging the fact that it has been becoming MORE prevalent. What is it replacing? I think we have passed a point where the standards of getting these jobs are higher than for the jobs themselves, so what good does a higher bar for getting the job do? You may say higher quality workers, but that assumes significant positive correlations between ability to grind and positive work attributes. Do you think the hardest grinders are significantly more likely to be more creative, or more social, or better problem solvers? I don't even know if I disagree with you for IB-type work; you're all midwits and can probably just throw your time at whatever "problems" you have at work to solve them. I still think grind culture is not worth it for other jobs, and even if a field does need it, the positive-feedback cyclicality of grind culture is too destructive to justify.
I don't mean to attack you personally, but I doubt how much of a life you actually have. I know plenty of people who think they are social because they play League and get boba (once a week) with their other friends who were lowkey abused by their immigrant parents. I'm not saying you do this, but it seems like you think going out, maintaining your health via the gym, and occasionally playing video games checks some box. How often do you spontaneously sit on your porch with your friends for an hour or two and talk? Call me lazy for doing this, but we can compare blood pressure and hairlines afterwards.
copium
Stay mad baldy.
To address your points one-by-one, grind culture is generally the "real" way the world works when it comes to the type of culture that participating in leads to quantifiable success in terms of money and stability. Of course money does not mean happiness, but people who have more are generally happier.
For the actual positives, which were the original intention of the post, I think "grind culture" has the unintended consequence of making more aware/educated compared to before as a positive byproduct. Whether it's learning about geopolitics for the sake of recruiting or students learning to code earlier to try their hand at creating a start-up, people are learning more faster, which leads to a better adult population later. People who have a higher baseline knowledge are also going to generally have more ideas, and we see this in our most successful parts of society. Most successful start up founders grew up grinding, which is why they usually funnel into "elite" schools, and having a higher quality of population leads to more flourishing ideas.
Now for the personal part, I'd say I am pretty well rounded, and I wouldn't even consider myself a grinder relative to many that I know, but just in the context of the post I linked it for the most part describes me as well as most Asians (tried super hard to min max college apps and on the SAT, came to college and chose banking, etc).
I'd say you almost have me to a tee in terms of what I like and the people I hang out with + other common so-cal ABB activities like raving or climbing (you can probably find 30 of me at UCLA/Berkeley), but it's your pre-conceived notion that me supporting grind culture equates to not having a life which is wrong. I probably just do those things way more than you think + whatever other hobbies I have. Just cleared my first V6 at the climbing gym, hit 260 on my bench at a low body weight, I party weekly/biweekly and beat a hard demon in geometry dash, which are all relatively useless things to do in terms of productivity and require time commitments, and I did all of this while also landing an objectively great offer, spamming stock pitches, dating, traveling in breaks, etc.
I don't say this to have some sort of lame ass flex on WSO, but just to say that grinding and hobbies/having a life are not mutually exclusive (until I hit the desk obviously)
It's a whole other argument in itself that I wish I included in the original post, but I don't think grind culture means people shouldn't have a life. Again, I'm only describing myself as a "grinder" in the context of Helen Andrew's post. Most people (including myself) have an exuberant amount of free time, which I would say is especially true in the context of finance undergrads, and so I don't think (at least right now) grind culture is a problem, and if anything, it's for the better.
I'll address your points in order by paragraph:
I disagree. The point in my original comment was that there existed a system before grind culture became so prominent, whose participants seemed to do fine in. I guess you're right if you assume the system is already being affected by grind culture, but I am arguing that grind culture shouldn't exist in its current manifestation, not that an individual shouldn't yield to it when recruiting.
I believe there is a difference between knowledge and intelligence. Of course, there are strong correlations between the two, but increasing one's knowledge probably won't have much effect on their creativity, problem-solving, etc, especially if they are already somewhat intelligent and knowledgeable. While it's good for people to have a good knowledge base, and I agree innovation can absolutely be inspired by other fields and so be benefited by higher base knowledge, there is a point where it becomes too large a requirement and ends up being a net negative to the people participating in it. Even if I believed we haven't passed such a point, like I said in my original comment, the self-enforcing cyclicality of grind culture presents a slippery slope in which this point will be surpassed. Also, what happens when the general-knowledge requirement starts eating up time that could be used for other intellectual or creative pursuits?
I might have been too presumptuous about you, and it seems like you have your balance figured out. I don't know how common this is though, and I know a lot of others handle this workload requirement much worse. I'm not even talking about mental illness or poor hygiene; kids will simply not do shit that isn't recruiting-related, becoming even more dull and lame than they were before (but this might be a chicken and the egg situation with IB people). You could claim that these people should be filtered out, but I think this is overkill. I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, people who are great problem solvers are turned off by fields that don't give them time to problem solve. Side note- I always found it funny how these guys will expect a candidate to have hobbies when recruiting, but then expect them to be willing to give all of these hobbies up when they start working. Like you want X, but then make X practically infeasible for the thing X helped them recruit into.
I think you implied that grind culture and having a life are not mutually exclusive when actually working in these roles, and it brings up another point against grind culture which is that it has tangible effects on the work side of things, not just recruiting. Grinders who get hired will become bosses who will probably demand a grinder approach to work (in aggregate at least). This sounds like literal hell if you are in IB, and I don't even think losers like the bald "MnIGuy" would disagree. Even if you disproved all of my above points, I think this alone is reason enough to be against grind culture.
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