Big 4 Hate Propaganda
I interned in B4 during my Undergraduate degree. I also interned in BB IB and have returned full-time.
The B4 hate, especially KPMG, has gone insane. It surely comes from a combination of privilege and ego. The collective result is that thousands of B4 employees and summer students are insecure about their jobs. I have seen this first hand. I personally am not insecure, because I got my goal job and had a great internship, but feel terribly bad for the many who are.
Work is depressing in itself for most - cannot believe how many people put others down to inflate their ego. B4 is better than 90% of jobs in America, I think unhinged corporate weapons forget the millions of back-office, blue-collar, retail, and other service jobs there are.
Thoughts?
Might be a bonkers theory, but I think WSO pumps B4 hate content in-part to boost their mentorship program by making students insecure. Obviously predominantly for engagement.
Same idea as comparing high-schools, universities, I-banks, etc. The Bullied AND the Bully are equally as insecure - otherwise they’d have better topics to discuss.
We love the Big 4 and think they are a great place for anyone to start a career...especially in TAS. It's why we push it so hard to our academy students as a great alternative to banking because it helps develop a lot of the same skill sets as IB and keeps that window open for longer (if they ever want it). Options are good, especially when kids need to decide what they will be doing at 22 when they are 19 to boost their chances.
This is not to mention the additional benefits of being able to tap a MASSIVE alum base from the firm indefinitely. :-)
All love here, at least from me.
Patrick
Whoever runs the instagram memes doesn't have the same memo.
People who shit on others because their of their jobs are just insecure cretins.
If you're too insecure to follow your own journey then it's my belief you don't have what it takes to be truly successful. You'll always be comparing yourself rather than focusing on your goals. This goes for people trying to break in and those at IBs shitting on others.
DEL DEL
Have you considered that some people in finance like to shit on those below them not out of insecurity, but simply because it's... fun? It's finance. We're not exactly talking about a group of saints here. People will roast and mock others just for the fun of it. I'm not a fan but I've seen, one too many times, my friends or coworkers laughing and shitting on big 4 just for the memes. It's like how HYP kids like to shit on Cornell. It is because they're insecure that they go to Harvard? No. They're just doing it because it's entertaining and because they don't have the moral conscience to restrain themselves.
They are memes you dope they aren’t meant to be taken seriously
Counterpoint: Big 4 jobs are trash and people seeking greener pastures should know that
Definitely agree with this… have never worked at a B4 but personally know a few corporate and RE PE partners as well as a bunch of VPs-MDs at I-banks all across WS that started in B4. Work at B4 definitely blows, no doubt about it, but so does analyst (and associate) work in IB Younger people that shit on B4 are losers that fail to realize that what you do in your 20’s is not the end all be all, it’s all about where you end up. I think accounting work would drive me insane, but I’m sure it’s a great base for other high finance careers. Also, partners in B4 make a ton of money if that’s your only focus. Honestly, you probably end up making more than someone that doesn’t make it to Partner/MD in IB/PE or just burns out and ends up in Corp Dev permanently.
Genuinely curious, how easy is it to ascend to the level of Big 4 partner (compared to MD)
like making it to your college basketball team vs NBA
Just to consider, there are different levels of partner at the big 4. Some say the levels you go through from staff to partner are almost the same as the levels you have to climb up the partner chain. It's a big achievement to make partner none the less, just its starts a new game.
IMO it's mostly the result of availability bias and echo-chamber dynamics. WSO is a finance-oriented forum with a userbase consisting primarily of college students and young professionals already in the industry. This naturally creates a closed environment and attracts a lot of immature, overachieving hardo types that are more likely to have a BB/EB or bust mentality and dump on everything else they perceive as "inferior", including Big 4. Out in the real world, Big 4 positions are perfectly fine and often act as a springboard to IB/PE, especially in London.
Hell, in the small EU country where I'm from, Big 4 is considered the holy grail of finance/accounting jobs for local students, as literally no major banks have offices there.
Fishbowl is a consulting-oriented forum and they also shit on big 4. Even people below MBB tier like OW shit on them just to feel better. College forums also shit on them, they’re just the whipping boys of career choices, maybe because Americans see these jobs as commoditized since they hire so many people every year.
I will say the nerds at deloitte who try to make MBBD a thing kind of deserve it though. They’re basically a meme at this point with their phrase that it’s harder to get into Deloitte than Harvard.
Cope lmao
Never worked at B4, but know many people working there. Imho one of the reasons why B4 is laughed at is the fact all companies pay peanuts, regardless of which area you work on. But I don't support mocking B4 employees, that's childish.
However, WSO mostly represents the US and the UK. In many EU countries, for example, there are mostly MO/BO roles in banks, the same goes for an extremely limited presence of MBB etc, so B4 is seen as pretty prestigious as well. It still pays very low, but B4 is still a good name, and no one mocks B4 in many EU countries, whether it's TAS, CO, or even Audit.
what peanuts are we talking about? SMs in TAS make 300-350k, partners can make 7 digits. it's completely possible to work like 20-30h/week as SM and partner with flexible schedule and full work from home. to make to SM and even partner is not that difficult compared to making it in IB.
your title says CorpFin. what do you make in Corpfin if what I said above is peanuts for you?
It’s great if you want to be an accountant! Otherwise it underpays for consulting or finance-adjacent roles
it pays more than IB on per hour basis
Congrats on KPMG man!
Quite ironic considering that IB is probably the one job in high finance that has the lowest financial/intellectual knowledge-base requirement (not the same thing as being potentially smart—which is what being in a target school measures), and B4 FO roles have the highest knowledge-base requirements in finance after quant roles.
IB Associates can review you badly for displaying theoretical finance knowledge that they lack on a case study (by mistakenly thinking you're wrong)—B4 FO people who universally take accounting exams & CFA people would see such knowledge as bare minimum!
I'm genuinely open to corrections & improving my knowledge as regards this take – especially by the person who MS'ed me
Feedback: Get a clue and actually work a day in finance before giving your 2¢ on this forum. Have you ever worked with former big 4 / former bankers before? The difference in mental horsepower is conspicuous.
Has NOT been my experience that Big4 people are more intelligent/knowledgeable than IB/MBB people.
deleted
Wouldn’t let my daughter date anyone working in the big 4 btw. If she ever brought back someone from kpmg I would tell him he has exactly 10 seconds to leave my house.
Congrats on Excalibur
Based
Kid Doesn’t even know how the Waystar Royco hostile takeover pac-man strategy we employed on Gojo. Get a life Mr Anon herb
I think all the hate comes from the fact that Big 4 groups like M&A, Valuation and (particularly in Europe) Debt advisory/Restructuring do the same things as IB and have similar hours, but work on much smaller deals and get paid much less, which sucks
work similar hours is a myth. after the first couple of year in Big4, once you built your reputation, you can kick back and delegate all the work and work like 20-30 hours per week. you can easily turn down extra work (or just not ask for it) if you're already working on something, even if you delegate it all. you can switch off after 5pm. you can even do something personal during the day and just tell people "sorry doctor appointment / sorry was grabbing lunch". you can work fully remotely, especially if you're not in NYC.
Big4 pays more per hour and is way less stressful.
So I'm not based in the US and my salary should be benchmarked against the local market ranges and it's way higher that any B4 would be paying me. I'm based in Europe, so are my friends working at B4, and by peanuts I mean the minumim wage being paid to entering analysts, with salary increases being non-existent. In the market I'm taking about (CEE) B4 is essentially an equivalent of IB which is non-existent so B4 has a stressful, harddo culture and very long hours. I'd say it's almost like IB in terms of hours with shit pay. Can't speak of the US though
I think a big reason why is the people that join B4 are often people who couldn’t make into banking (coming from someone who worked at B4), everyone knows in audit at least that the job is boring, WLB is bad and pay is shitty so they either wait till they’re qualified and leave to become an industry accountant or grind really hard to break into any FO role. I knew a lot of the people I worked with were shooting for FO but discovered banking quite late so missed the opportunity to recruit.
What percent of entry-level Big 4 employees do you think are failed wannabe bankers...
Considering most tax/audit jobs at the Big 4 require you to be a CPA in order to get promoted beyond manager, you are grossly overstating this. That isn't to say that failed wannabe bankers don't end up at Big 4, just that the number is far smaller than you think it is.
I really enjoyed my time at B4, however, my enjoyment was more to do with the people than the work or the culture itself. Audit was absolutely fine, I wouldn't shout about it but it does teach you a lot and you can gain a lot of value from it.
My issue with B4 was more with their progression and structure, along with their views on extra-curricular aspects. They were so stringent with grade progression, I should have been double promoted on two occasions (I am biased but I feel like I was doing more than others in my cohort) and was told no for very generic "we need you to take on more responsibility"-esque reasons. Even with my attendance to networking events, lead generation etc. it didn't matter.
Nevertheless, I really value my time there, I just think they can enhance their care for employees.
How often do Big 4 people in America (not UK) make it into banking without an MBA?
Honestly, it’s hard to say. It’s not uncommon for folks to go from transaction advisory to IB however, from the accounting side I don’t think there’s that much interest to be honest, when you look at how many folks just want to make senior and exit to industry. I don’t think a lot of them are interested in working 80 hour weeks.
depends on the market conditions. during the post-covid boom, you could easily move to banking from Big4 TAS. currently it's close to impossible.
It’s not just WSO where big 4 hate is rampant, it’s also pervasive on platforms like fishbowl, Reddit, even the Ivy League meme groups on fb and instagram were constantly shitting on big 4.
Dawg dont know anyone who doesnt dunk on Big 4. Even my SWE friends dunk on Big 4 accountants on the regular LMAO.
Yup, even consultants from other companies shit on big 4. My professors lowkey dumped on them too
If an anonymous comment on a discussion board full of fake personas makes you insecure about a job - you have much bigger issues that you need to deal with.
I feel like the fact that you had to mention that you were at a BB negates the entire point of this post...
Was included to avoid trollers and encourage an actual conversation. My goal here was to highlight the effects of people mocking Big 4 and discuss the reasoning. Not sure what you think my “point” was.
My guess is any B4 hate is from those who didn’t make it in. I have no dog in that fight. B4 is a great spot to start.
Bankers hate to admit this but accountants make the best bankers / associates.
There’s this weird wall, preventing accountants from breaking in (I think because a) bankers know the above, and b) if they allow it as a pipeline, accounting would lose too many strong accountants) but yea, the strongest bankers I have met have the account backgrounds (and gratitude for the role).
It's funny because (a) is at least nominally true. Having a good accounting background is an incredible value-add, especially for analyst/associate roles in IB/PE. People glam up the grunt work in IB/PE a lot, but a substantial amount of what you do is just glorified accounting and tax work.
I so wholeheartedly agree with this, the "boring" barrier is so stupid when you are doing donkey shit at the lowest level.
Big4 gets jokes made at them because 1. It’s the ‘least prestigious’ out of the white collar finance jobs that people would know about, it’s no fun making a joke about a boutique accountancy firm in the middle of no where. People like to punch down a bit but not excessively. In the HF quant space we make more jokes about the ‘stupid excel monkeys at Goldman’ who just rearrange slides for 16 hours a day and I’m sure the people at rentech take the piss out of us for being clueless and unsophisticated. 2. Most people that work at the big4 tried and failed to get into banking so anyone that got into banking just feels better than them about their career success. 3. At least in the UK the pay is shit for grads in London like 32k a year shit and you’re having to work pretty hard for that in an expensive city but people like to try and convince you that it’s the best job in the world. 4. The bad apples in the big4 that are insecure and try and peddle it off to people that they work in some hyper competitive, lucrative, super important and intellectually challenging field as a junior working in audit and turn it into their personalities.
Big 4 hate is deserved IMO. Hours are shit and the pay is extra shit. At least banking pays well. I’d be happy to take a look at a big 4 resume that wants to make the switch, but I would want to understand why they didn’t go to banking outright.
Some big 4s have strong banking footholds. One of my best buddies from high school went into Deloitte Corp. Fin in Charlotte out of undergrad. Solid LMM shop with steady deal flow, get paid decently well considering they don't pay NY taxes. In this case, is the big 4 hate still deserved even if it's IB they're doing there?
If the pay in their banking groups are decent, I’d say no. Equivalent is hating on a Stifel or Oppenheimer for paying below market.
I also interned at a big 4 firm in valuation and I think it was very solid. I think the big 4 hate comes from a the fact that many (perhaps most) people who work there come from "normal" working environments so the concept of routine long working hours and demanding environment is just too lost on them. Their expectations aren't conforming to the finance environment overall. Except for the pay, I think big 4 could give you a solid experience if you decide to start there.
Add to that the insecure people who are at more prestigious firms (BB IBs, MBB consulting, etc) who make fun of big 4 to feel better about themselves.
Basically, all these terminally online IB/PE/S&T/etc insecure types hate on the Big Four because of this dick measuring contest that pretty much only exists in their heads.
At OP, I've been on both side and here are my thoughts:
1. I would agree, working at the Big 4 is a good if not great job/career in terms of progressive and learning opportunities. I'd say the divide is like two groups of people disliking each other in the Hamptons, at the end of the day, you're both in the Hamptons, so technically you both made it. Maybe one person has on nicer shoes or their beach house is a little better, but than you're splitting hairs.
2. I would generalize, but finance is a little more button up, where as accounting is not. Meaning, some big 4 but big accounting firms are more likely to have a training where they "put together a skit" where finance is not like that. I think accounting tries too hard to be more open and fun, and by doing so they are not fun. Hate to generalize or make everything about high school, but people in accounting are like the kids in high school who run for student government, finance are like lax bros.
3. Finance is just considered "cool" and accounting is not. That's just the way it is until it changes (if it does change). Most people only see an accountant when they get their taxes done, and most thing of finance as Wolf of Wall Street. The gap has somewhat slimmed I think recently, there are a lot of people now in accounting who would be considered cool. What accounting really needs is just one show or movie that shows them in a suave way (the Ben Affleck movie doesn't count).
What a tool, lol. OP thinks WSO forums have pull in the real world. It’s just the same 5 senior bankers and a rotation of poor young kids coming and going every few years looking for tips to survive.
Read the post. Said I’ve seen the impact first hand on the “real world.” It’s not just forums- memes shared around that translate into conversation.
I did read the post, and thought it was the typical inane stuff I read on here.
Your post is likely a humble brag. You had a mid college profile and a crappy internship, but parlayed it to a BB banking gig. So you wanted to showboat a little bit. I get it. I also enjoy flexing online.
You then mention that you’ve “seen” first hand that most people at Big 4 workplaces are insecure. Think about that statement. You’re an intern and you think via your internship, you’ve been able to witness that most people in Big 4 are not only insecure, but are insecure because of the hate that all bankers show them?
You sound like a very mature and humble guy!
JPM is glad to have you!
"B4 is better than 90% of jobs in America, I think unhinged corporate weapons forget the millions of back-office, blue-collar, retail, and other service jobs there are."
Your original post about how putting others down to inflate ego, then mentions how B4 is better than 90% of these other jobs - many of which are essential to society. Sure, maybe low paying, but society could not function without many blue collar jobs. Are you not doing the same thing ?
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