Do any of you feel like you've had an intellectual decline after starting college because of majoring in business?
I feel like I was so much more intelligent and academically driven in high school. I studied hard subjects like AP Physics C, Calc 3, AP Chem in high school and did a bunch of olympiads and now I'm majoring in finance and I've seen that I've become a lot less sharp. I always feel underwhelmed and can't study or think as much anymore. I've also just finished a year of college. I'm almost certain that I've lost a few IQ points. On the other my friends who're going to like 80% acceptance rate state schools and majoring in engineering/CS/pre-med seem a lot smarter than they were. Education really does affect your IQ.
Holy smokes guys. This kid studied AP Physics! Fuck dude what's it like to be a rockstar
Haha you’re going for fire. The point of the post was not to say that I took AP Physics. I’m sure a very high percentage of business students currently at targets/semi-targets took that class. I also did Math competitions and bio/Chem Olympiad. My point was that after taking AP physics and similar classes in high school, a business major in college feels like a massive decline in intellectual rigor.
Feel ya, mostly just fucking with you. Does your B-school program not leave much room for electives? There are some pretty rigorous upper-level Econ courses and a lot of programs leave the room to take additional STEM classes outside of the business school. FWIW I did Econ & Stats as a double major and found that to satisfy my itch for mathy problem sets that make me feel good about myself when I complete.
Man, I feel you. I didn’t even start uni yet and the businessyyy students seem to be a different personality type and I’m feeling uncomfortable with my decision to decide against going into sciences/engineering.
I didn’t even have the national/international Olympiad stuff so I can’t fathom how you feel
On another note, overall do you feel regret picking business? Some insight would be good cuz I’ve been shitting bricks over my decisions and worrying about the future in these past months
Wonder which graduate scholarship he's going to choose: Rhodes or Marshall? Prolly both, with that big brain OP has
It depends on the pedigree and intensity of your business school. I can name many schools where the experience may be the opposite, wherein the business college is significantly more competitive than the other schools within the university.
I go to Emory. I think that I went to an unusually rigorous high school where I intensely engaged with STEM classes hence I notice this decline compared to people who didn’t do so
Ahh you go to Emory, well then that explains a lot —GaTech grad ;)
bro... with all due respect, not sure what you were expecting. Emory has so many Gen-Ed courses to fulfil both pre-BBA, liberal arts curriculum, AND even in the BBA there's so much BS courses like marketing that you have to take as a part of core curriculum. Obviously you're going to be taking significantly easier classes if you're BBA, but especially if you're just in your freshman year. Use the time that you aren't spending on grinding hard pre-med req's to read a book or watch informative YouTube vids or get involved with some stimulating campus org or research.
Ok...then name one instead of giving a lecture on pedigree
Point noted
Bro, yes. PM me, I legit feel the exact same way
I haven’t started uni and I feel the same Bruhhh. We’re all in the same boat!!
Business classes are not as difficult per se as stem courses, but then again, they’re developing a different part of the brain. Soft skills may seem like cake, but are are so many nuances that make it an art, rather than a science — resulting in what could be interpreted as challenging by someone more stem oriented.
I used to love stem classes because there’s always a right & a wrong — not the case in business classes (except quant courses like accounting / finance). Idk though, to each his/her own & curious to gather data points on this as well.
I totally agree with that. The soft skills part is what really rules everything beyond a threshold. I don't know I feel like I suck at the formal soft skills part of things. I'm good at engaging people in conversation and can talk to people who are 25-30 a lot better than 18-20(my age range).
Thanks for the suggestion! I was actually thinking of adding an Applied Math or a Neuroscience major. I've always been interested in those 2 things
It's kind of weird. I would say getting grades in college is harder but the content is easier if you're a business major. I'm surprised you find it that easy though. You say you go to Emory and one of my friends from high school went there and said that it was pretty challenging and complained about the work. She's pretty smart(was like Valedictorian of our class) and is at MBB now.
graduated from a liberal arts college so take this as you will, but from what i can tell, it's really up to how well you can (1) explain the intuition behind concepts and (2) connect seemingly unrelated ideas together.
(1) for a lot of econ and finance concepts, i think the best thing you can do is challenge yourself to explain things intuitively rather than defining things. for example, a bond's duration is the price sensitivity to a change in interest rates. the real (and original) definition is the time weighted average of present value cash flows to return the principal. what is the intuition behind that definition? if you were to ask me, i would say that future coupon payments returns your principal, which reduces the money (value) you are owed in the future. the final output of time shows the real maturity time IF future cash flows (coupon payment) was a continuous variable than a discrete one (think of a exponential function graph of future cash flows adjusted by time weight). therefore, shorter duration bonds are generally safer than longer duration, and thus, value at risk (VaR) is lower. so what is VaR? so on and so forth
(2) if this gets too boring for you, mix in other disciplines to your thought. this is easier if you've taken courses outside your business school ones. psych course? explain business drivers using psych (behavioural finance). sociology? explain business place issues using soc theories. environmental science? this one is a good one because envr sci makes explicit use of a time variable, so there exists present value vs future value of natural capital, optimal levels of emissions for abatement, hedonic pricing method, etc. you can even explain interest rates differently in envr sci because a high interest rate (ie high "intergenerational discount rate") means that you value your present marginal utility / assets (nature, for ex, included because that brings you future value) more than you value your kids' or grandkids' future marginal utility / assets -- something humans are super prone to doing because we don't tend to think far enough...you guessed it, psychology at play. we can even go envr sci, econ / finance and psychology all together: how you perceive risk. humans tend to overestimate the risk of things less likely to happen and underestimate the risk of things more likely to happen (think about how many times you've engaged in a stupid act that will get you hurt but thought "eh, should be fine" but wasn't). connect that to envr sci, where the risk of climate change is floods, drought, deadly heat waves, ridiculous cold weather, etc. it's pretty damn likely these will happen with our levels of consumption, but we think "eh, just one extra person driving is fine" for an easier commute than public transit so you underestimate, when in reality everyone is likely thinking this way so everyone drives. your present marginal utility of driving was significantly more highly valued than future generations. but you might also say, "wait, some people need to drive because some areas just don't have any access to public transit" and i would say you're absolutely correct. then you can get into why communities were structured the way they've become -- which is a sociological, a political and a historical inquiry.
that was a long winded way of saying that your education is really what you make out of it. if you just want to ace the classes that you take at the surface level of inquiry because you have other things to do than go on an intellectual inquiry, that's completely fine -- my sophomore spring and junior fall was like that because of recruiting, for example. stem and engineering naturally forces you to do these things because those courses have proofs and direct applications (ie, difficult and measurable technical skills) embedded into them. with social sciences and professional studies, you need to seek them out (ie., you need to be a "thinker" first and foremost, which is why skills are considered not technical, except the small amount of math you need to do)
Wow this was so insightful! I will definitely do my best to make these changes. I definitely want a more intellectually rewarding college experience
i'm glad it helped. having your education expand your worldview is the best thing you can get out of paying 75k a year for college. that does include talking to and engaging with many people. you'd be surprised at how much you can learn about the world around you just by going to parties. it's about finding the balance between intellectual learning and life experience learning, that in turn, enhances intellectual learning. side benefit is that you develop your people skills as you learn to engage beyond your scope of who is most comfortable to talk to
This is beautiful man i've never commented before but I just had to let you know
No, education does not affect IQ whatsoever, that’s the whole point of IQ. I’m pretty sure I lost IQ from excessive alcohol consumption during college though, because that can genuinely harm your brain. Maybe it’s that or other confounding factors such as social confusion?
There is plenty of evidence that your social status, education, family situation etc affect your IQ, and it has never been proved as a "cause" of success (once adjusting for the before mentioned factors, and even if not). As a matter of fact, IQ is mostly bs. Although, there is some evidence that it can measure stupidity/failure (if low low)(while, again, for Intelligence is bs).
For referance (very interesting also for finance guys): https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f13…
pic: average Mensa member
IQ itself is just a measure. I'm really talking about intelligence. Is it your view that intelligence is purely a factor of 'social status, education, family situation' and is fluidly influenced by your environment? That is a popular field for no-name SJW sociologists who try to proclaim everything is due to privilege. But any study not plagued by that idea, say from 10+ years ago or from a reputed STEM-based study, says the opposite.
A hard truth in this world is that you're born with your peak intelligence-potential. And a particularly terrifying empirical fact, proven yet not-discussed because of its implications, is that intelligence is largely genetic. Two smart parents are much more likely to have a smart child-- even if the smart child was separated at birth (twin studies) and raised in non-stimulating environments. Hard work can increase your crystallized intelligence, but not your fluid intelligence.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6088505/#:~:text=Across%20….
"we found consistent evidence for beneficial effects of education on cognitive abilities of approximately 1 to 5 IQ points for an additional year of education. Moderator analyses indicated that the effects persisted across the life span and were present on all broad categories of cognitive ability studied."
Interesting. What type of education? Not specified in this misleading article. According to the conclusions of the researchers, if I'm a 60 year old man ('effects persisted across the life span') who gets 20 additional years of education at a community college studying Gender Studies, I might gain 5 IQ points per year according to their 'consistent' evidence! I could go from an IQ of 130 to IQ of 230 as an 80 year old!
Hell, I'll sign up for Gender Studies classes from Devry university right now and get as many degrees as possible. In 50 years, I should be sitting at about an IQ of about 400! Once I do that, I should be able to cure cancer easily. Trust the science, y'all. If it's in a study, must be true!
Once again, correlation does not prove causation, and their weak attempt to control for reverse-causality through 'school-age cutoffs' does not convince me at all.
You said that "education does not affect IQ", and you are wrong, don't chage the subject: I cannot understand what you really meant buy saying that. I wasn't talking about intelligence. Regarding the SJW thing, just no, I am not in that sphere. You can take a look at the link I sent.
If you meant intelligence, I don't know anything about that, how do you measure intelligece? You might be correct, even if the brain is flexible and exercise can surely grow your brain functions, you start with a sealing? Maybe. But, that's not the point of the discussion.
I just said that education does affect IQ, and that IQ is not a reliable measure of intelligence (probably, hard to measure, but it is not, for sure, a metric of success).
In common parlance when someone refers to IQ they mean intelligence. Look at the original post. He's talking about 'intellectual decline' and then mentions education's effect on IQ. When someone says, "he must have a high IQ" they are saying he's smart. They're not talking about some disembodied test score like you are. Why? Because IQ is the single best measure of intelligence that we have. Obviously, it's a measure so it's not perfect. But please inform me of a better measure and we can use that instead as an objective shorthand/signifier of intelligence.
Surprised no one has pointed out that OP is a FIRST YEAR. Your coursework is going to be relatively easy to start regardless of major. Things get more intense once you start to get to the core classes.
As someone mentioned, I would add quant based classes to your curriculum, many of which can likely be found in the B School. Analytics has become a major thing. Heavy use of data science, CS, and business. Some schools have a Mathematics Business major. Others will do a lot of the quant stuff via Econ. Also, finance and accounting get very challenging in the higher levels (sometimes in the lower levels when they act as weed outs). The problem sets get pretty intense. I remember looking at a few higher end finance problem sets a few yrs back and they seemed like they were using a different language. Lots of moving parts, financial modeling, etc. Your background in STEM should make you quite competitive in those areas.
I go to Emory and we have something called QSS which is essentially data science. I might add that or applied math or neuroscience(always been interested in this)
Any chance you can transfer to GTech? If you’re going to do a tech/math focused business degree, Emory is weaker imo.
In the same boat. Shoot me a message
Emory rising sophomore here too. The brain rot is real. That's why I'm doing philosophy and history classes on the side lol.
Studying business should not be a thing. Math, physics, computer science, and even history or creative writing are far superior in an intellectual sense because they actually teach you to think critically, which is by far the most invaluable skill someone can have.
A ten year old can memorize the rules of accounting and basic corporate finance parlance. The whole point of academia is to cultivate your ability to think.
Most of my friends studied business and essentially learned nothing throughout the entirety of college. I studied math and loved every second of it, and it changed the way I think more than anything else. I also took a slew of military history courses out of personal interest and connected with a few key professors on a level that had an exponential impact on me intellectually. That is what college is all about in my opinion.
I realize I’m biased, but nine times out of ten I’d rather hire/work with the passionate history major with exceptional critical thinking/problem solving skills who can break down an outside-the-box take on the strategic genius of Napoleon at Austerlitz than the run of the mill finance hardo who memorized a bunch of guides.
Your experience must have been really rewarding! I’m interested in Neuroscience and Astrophysics so I might take some classes in those and possibly add applied math as a major
Absolutely go for it
So I disagree with this pretty heavily. Most finance majors require math coursework (some stats + calc) and if you do the Econ concentration there’s even more math involved. Intermediate finance + accounting classes are actually challenging. Probably easier than a comparable CS class, but certainly not something a “10 year old” could handle as you put it. There are also classes such as public speaking which while not “technical” in nature helped me a lot with my soft skills.
An additional point is that the value of a business degree lies outside of its coursework. OCR is often confined to the business school and there are several professional development seminars and company events that go on that help one to learn about soft skills. I learned a ton about the business environment, networking, professionalism, how to communicate, etc. from attending these. Granted I didn’t grow up from a Greenwich background, so it was all foreign to me.
I agree with your assertion about soft skills. Critical thinking/common sense is often useless without a keen ability to articulate yourself and relate to others. I have also heard the point that the value of a business degree lies outside the classroom (I see the merit in having the network, though personally I think this makes no sense as the sole basis for an education).
As someone who has taken both advanced calculus as well as virtually every upper division finance course, I can tell you categorically that finance courses require very little actual critical thinking and, contrary to what you suggest, no material level of math in any sense of the word. The vast majority of business classes simply teach students to memorize definitions and formulas, leaving them with a very poor grasp of the underlying theory behind why those formulas actually exist.
Here is an example that epitomizes my point and, ironically, includes calculus - take a public company's beta. I can tell you from experience that 99% of banking professionals simply read this number off Bloomberg and call it a day. They can recite the bumper-sticker definition, but they actually have no idea where the number comes from or how it is even calculated. And yet its use in cost of equity is ubiquitous and has a tremendous impact on valuation models for mammoth billion-dollar deals. Plotting the respective price histories of both the company in question and the broader market (e.g. SPX), beta is the coefficient (slope) resulting from fitting an optimal linear predictor (the line of best fit) that minimizes the sum of squared vertical deviations from the line. Thus, we want to minimize Σ[Yi - (B0 + B1Xi)]^2, which can be achieved by taking its partial derivatives, setting them to zero, and solving for B1. A little linear algebra later and we come to see that that beta simply equals correlation * vol ratio. Why is this important? It is extremely important because we could easily have a situation where the beta in question is either 1) completely wrong in a practical sense and/or 2) very misrepresentative of a firm's true risk to equity holders. Case in point - company A has undergone a major restructuring/bankruptcy and has a trailing 5-year a correlation of of 0.1 with the S&P but is 10x as volatile, while company B has a correlation of 0.8 and is 1.25x as volatile. Both of these businesses have "betas" of 1, or, in finance parlance, pose an equal risk to equity holders. Do you see my point? The vast majority of those studying business would not have the wherewithal to reason through something like this, and resultantly would lose extremely valuable underlying information/insight that could potentially change the entire landscape of a deal.
This of course is just one granular example, though I think it is very representative of the broader point
If you think it's bad now, wait until you start working full time.
I was thinking the same thing! Double majored in two quant fields at a target school, and have been working in a very technically soft, capital-markets oriented IB role since then. I feel like I've lost about 15 IQ points since college lol. Might just be CTE from all those concussions I got in HS from football though.
Would recommend taking a philosophy course that focuses on someone like Kant or Heidegger... can guarantee writing a lot about philosophy will push you in ways you didn't experience in math / science and you will be a better person for it. Any intense writing course could be interesting helpful, for that matter. I regret not doing more writing in college and feel that any ability I once had has now gone to shit.
Yes. Should have studied something else. On the bright side, it gave me the time to learn a lot of things in my spare time and explore various interests that have guided me towards where I belong in life.
Bruh just do well in classes and read books in subjects that interest you. Then you get the good grades and a finance degree to make money with and you’re smart and well read. It’s not that complicated.
Your ability to study and think is not correlated to STEM knowledge. You’re also not “dumb” now because you aren’t studying your highschool physics class.
All that being said, do I feel stupider after my finance undergrad and being in investment banking?
Yes
If you feel like this now, wait until you become a bona fide excel monkey.
there will be intellectual decline sooner or later anyway. nobody is really doing anything nearly as mentally stimulating at work as learning advanced math or physics.
Just take some math classes and you will be sharp again
I definitely don't challenge myself as much anymore with courses, and maybe it's that I've become lazy but I'm completely fine with just having fun in school since I know what I'll be doing post grad and what it takes to get there.
Of course I still think I should use the most of my opportunity and study something more interesting like physics to me, but I just read about that stuff for fun in all my free time when I'm not enjoying college life
I felt the same way at times pursuing an accounting and finance degree. Walked out with nearly a 4.0 and couldn't remember a time I was legitimately challenged during the program. Maybe it was just a weaker program for the college, but I missed the AP physics and calc classes.
That being said, you can find ways to challenge yourself. Take the more quantitative classes like you mentioned, maybe even consider doing something like a comp sci minor. If you are interested in public equities or whatever start doing an independent study of them outside of classes as well. There is more than enough there to challenge you intellectually. Look for stock pitch and case study competitions as well. The opportunity to challenge yourself is there it might just be a bit more of a DIY adventure.
I'm gonna be very real here there can be a couple of different ways you can look at this. Business schools at semi-targets to high targets are usually very highly endowed and also at the end of the day are a business. That being said, programs can differ, for example, I have a friend in Advertising/Marketing who does literal jack shit course work and barely stresses over much with exams and all. Myself, I'm within a quantitative heavy concentration of Finance so I find myself to be challenged and enjoy the challenge as opposed to my workload in HS being very diverse (which is what gave it "rigor").
Just my $.02 with a different perspective but nonetheless can see where OP is coming from.
Lol, yeah but it’s mostly just cuz I’m frying my brain with booze and blow
Taking a STEM business major (BS in Business Analytics) was the best things I could’ve done. It’s super intellectually stimulating, I learned an awesome skillset, and got to study next to some future tech geniuses and bright minds. Half my classes were CS, Stats, and Engineering-based. The other half were brainless accounting/econ/etc.
I understand what you're saying. I recently picked up a book about the study of the progression of applied mathematics in the world and I feel like it's reopening parts of my brain again in lieu with pure intellect.
If I were to do it all over again, I'd pursue a dual degree in engineering and finance.
The older I get, the more understanding I have for the STEM focus of the world. Everything rests upon STEM. Everything. Mathematics acts as the root to which all other human creation can be explained.
Personally I'm a big picture thinker that naturally looks for the relationships that connect one thing to the next. I'm beginning to understand that calculus and the study of infinity is that connector. It's amazing.
Btw, you wanna make big money on the street? Big money on the street is made from those who understand the relationships between people, history, and markets, better than anyone else.
If I were a student I’d focus on the intellect and not fall for something that robs you of your chance for those pure "ah-ha" feelings. That’s where you want to be if you wish to understand the world. And if you hold advanced understanding you will naturally find ways to express that understanding, test those thought patterns, and that will likely create or generate wealth should it be true.
.
Sure - if you’d like to spend the rest of your life as a keyboard junky, study excel.
By the way, I’m not arguing OP neglect excel, modeling, networking, all other material skill sets necessary for gaining an entry point into the industry.
My argument is essentially root cause analysis:
If you aim to become an investor one day you need to engage in investor like thought.
If you aim to create value, you need focus on creation and/or advanced understanding to stimulate creation and thus create value.
If you want to be an excel monkey for the rest of your life, focus on excel.
Sounds over simplistic but it’s true in nature. Studying mathematics develops the depths of one’s mind.
Yes, OP will need some baseline modeling skills, yes OP will need some people skills, etc.
However, I believe true value creation is rooted in knowledge, understanding, and how well somebody discovers relationships between things, ideas, people, events. Value creation is how well one can develop the web of relationships between what already exists and what is yet to be created.
Vel temporibus repellendus quisquam consequuntur blanditiis perferendis. Enim velit commodi eveniet enim omnis at.
Nihil voluptatem id illo recusandae sed. Illum est ducimus explicabo.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Cupiditate eaque enim voluptas qui totam ipsa qui eaque. Repellendus cupiditate perspiciatis impedit dolor voluptates ea. Et cupiditate quasi ut repudiandae aliquid accusamus. Ab quis est recusandae exercitationem quam et. Laborum sunt qui quam.
Repudiandae eaque aut dolor id. Minima molestiae quaerat aut autem id necessitatibus est omnis.
Sit beatae sapiente quaerat qui unde quidem cupiditate. Sapiente reprehenderit repellat culpa enim. Nihil rerum recusandae et rem nisi nihil iste eaque. Deserunt vel maxime cumque nesciunt maiores.
Sequi perspiciatis doloribus porro et aut. Quaerat ad minima reiciendis eligendi quo neque quia. Voluptates libero et ut aliquid nostrum sequi pariatur. Ratione vel modi libero excepturi non quae optio.
Ullam exercitationem fuga vel voluptatem dolore aut quas sunt. Debitis voluptatem voluptatibus adipisci eaque assumenda et saepe ut. Qui sed ea voluptatem quia voluptatem suscipit est. Est exercitationem voluptates omnis architecto quos. Veniam voluptates cupiditate dolores enim occaecati.
Accusantium aut quam officia consequatur et neque magnam sint. Omnis eaque voluptas quia explicabo qui. Nam velit adipisci expedita doloribus eligendi ab fuga. Corrupti enim beatae dolor qui nobis earum. Occaecati voluptatem minima et molestiae omnis temporibus. Distinctio incidunt et nihil amet omnis aut rem.