Kelley in its nature is not selective and as a whole they are still able to send kids who perform and are competitive. Kids generally make huge bonuses and have a decently high salary when compared to some harder competition.
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They grinders
Diversity fraud
*Diversity Finesse... we all know the system is broken, so why blame?
Not blaming. Just informing OP of why IU Kelly seems to have outsized placements. Theoretically speaking, if OP were to translate their tactics of blatantly lying about diversity (That IU is now notorious for...), the offer rate per rate of OPs school would increase. Whether or not it is unethical is another conversation, and I won't even get into that.
We should blame. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Yes, it is bullshit when a diversity candidate who comes from a wealthy family feast off a system build to help underserved backgrounds. Even more screwed up when I saw classmates from legitimately lower-middle class backgrounds with single parents have to go through the normal process when the Exeter Academy kid gets to SEO his way to every superday on Wall Street.However, when you lie about your background that is even worse.
Toughen up and recruit like the rest of us. The IU alum and students who legitimately landed their offers suffer now as a result of the antics of other people who couldn’t land jobs on their own merit.
That’s why I’m afraid of going to IU a little bc I know it happens, and people do genuinely get upset.
Disagree with this take. I think these guys are modern day civil rights activists. They successfully finessed the scam system and they deserve the fruits of their labor.
Normal pipeline kids > civil rights activists who finesse the system >>>>>>>>>>>> diversity kids >> nepotism kids
Edit: Diversity & Nepotism kids freely handing out MS like firms hand them offers
Is this actually confirmed? How are they doing this and getting away with this? Where are you getting this evidence from? I’m from Canada so I don’t know too much about Kelly, I’ve just heard they’re a pretty decent school.
Yeah these geniuses scam the scammers. Hopefully this strategy spreads to the other schools too
Almost every flagship public has something like this. I go to a southern school but off the top of my head here are some SEC schools and their feeders.
Georgia - SMIF
Bama - UAIBA
Florida - MSF program
UofSC - Finance Scholars Program
Texas - WSFM
It's a function of number of alumni, quality of alumni, school ranking, and donor generosity. And before some idiot gets pissy about this list, these programs are not all peers. WSFM is better at placing students than MSF, which is better than SMIF, which is worlds better than the other two here. Point is these programs exist at all schools. Their success is a combination of those factors, and of course the fact that these schools end up being the most affordable option for a lot of really good students who would have placed well had they gone anywhere.
Agree with this. As someone who did UF MSF -> IB -> PE, the biggest thing is the pipeline created by the alumni within the program. It's very difficult to get to IB from UF if you're not in MSF, but if you're in MSF you're virtually guaranteed to get in if IB is what you want. The program staff works hard to keep relationships with alumni, who tend to pull very hard for current students (probably due to still having an outsider mentality/chip on the shoulder and wanting to get as many alumni to WS as possible).
Best way to describe it is UF MSF is a semi-target/target for a few banks, despite UF broader not being a target.
Go Gators! Current MSF here lol
True but these programs are at equally as big schools, but they accept less kids into their IB organization. Any reason for that?
Not sure I understand your question but if you’re asking “Why are these programs at bigger schools smaller than IU’s?” Then it’s pretty simple - there are a lot of really smart kids who end up at their stage flagships. There are also a lot of really dumb kids. You, as a program director, stake your reputation on the line every time you put a kid in front of a bank. You minimize your risk of being embarrassed by being selective upfront.
UGA's main one is Corsair for IB, SMIF is great but mainly prepares students for S and T type roles
How are bama and uofsc even close to the other 3?
The school has been doing this for a lot longer than others. Once you develop a pipeline of alumni that perform well and ultimately are able to make hiring decisions, it becomes a positive feedback loop.
Also, the kids that go through the workshop and/or are part of the clubs get more IB-focused practice and prep. I've found other public schools spend more time on investment analysis (CFA prep), which is fine, but only part of the skillset is transferable.
“Huge”
Bigger than similar counterparts.
Just like skipping college and going to "overtime elite", these schools essentially have pushed back on giving a liberal arts education with many different principles and focused on creating the best corporate drone money can buy. Before you throw MS at me, I went to one of these schools, everyone was there to get a job period. The few electives you were allowed to take people stacked up on easy classes or took them in the summer ahead of 2nd year, to allow more time to network during the year while you take less classes. The professors while some good, some bad were there to teach from a textbook unlike a top LAC who you know the guy who wrote the textbook teaches the class. Second year, I think we spent more time tracking vault guides (back then) versus discussing anything we learned in OB.
Here is the other key, these schools take larger student bodies and very quickly choose who is the top of the class, be it the workshops, professors putting you on teams, or specific planned alumni events. Then they invest tons of resources in those students and will not lie all the alumni that created the pipeline were mainly probably those students.
Point72 Academy was created by Jaimi Goodfriend, she basically created the same style of thing at DePaul and then UIUC. Then she took the concept next level.
Had Jaimi on the pod - very cool what she did.
Although not totally related, just an example of non targets doing cool things. You would likely be surprised to learn, the largest (by a long shot, not even close) student run investment fund happens at... U Dayton. The Flyers Fund has over 67M AUM, with 80 students involved (as of 2021). This is a major program and requires significant time commitment but those who participate essentially act as equity and research analysts, PMs, etc. They use state of the art tools / tech. Really impressive. They also place pretty well directly in to the buyside.
Again, this isn't IB specific but there are plenty of schools that provide great opportunities who seek them. If they network and seek opportunities, many get placed in great gigs. IB, AM, Consulting, etc. It's about the kid.
I assume the average kid doesn't do as well, but the ones that want it, get it.
I have never met a university of Dayton junior in banking or know anyone that has.
also really question your definition of direct buyside placement. Sure some $20mm barely LMM fund in Cleveland hires kids for $60k base - that’s not what people here are aiming for with “buyside”
IU worked their numbers by placing really well at no name botiques and smaller shops - half of their placements are banks I’ve never heard of
Dayton has a decent amount of juniors rn. JP, CS, UBS, Blair, Baird, Lincoln, Key, Jeff, BMO, Houlihan. This years it’s looking like 7-10 name brand placements.
Only inaccurate thing is buyside placement at Dayton. We probably have 1 person go to a small/medium sized hedge fund a year, and 1 going to LMM pe
Knowing IU and at least another program mentioned recruiting well
- Alumni involvement, including from MBA program. If you have MD level and especially few, they’ll push to make it a target school with 6-8 kids which can really bulk up someone like IU at a BB
- Programs train students to be successful at interviews or when they hit the desk so they are ahead of probably a smarter but less exposed kid at Brown or Princeton
- Program alumni hands on for picking candidates so there are less recruiting mistakes (there are still a good number)
- Program alumni also prep students for interviews generally and for bank so they don’t bomb it like a random kid
- Once they show up, the above connections can help with group placements, deals, or even mentorship from A2s all of which can make them shine
Has nothing to do with diversity. Just good old connections and looking out
To develop a pipeline you need to have students at that school want to be bankers, move to NYC right out of college and grind for 80 hours a week while spending a lot of money on a tiny apt. in Murray Hill. If you go to school in the east coast or within a 4 hour radius within a large financial center like Chicago, NYC, San Fran, you will have those types of students, These students will go out of there way to network and build a pipeline. Some other state schools in the the south , mountain west, and north west regions, do not have enough students who want to live that life right out of college. Think of it, you are going to school in wide open spaces and than you graduate to a cramped apartment with roommates and working a soul crushing job. That might be too much of a transition for many.
When Goldman moved to Utah, it brought high quality middle office jobs as well as equity research and wealth management. They hired BYU, U of Utah, and Utah State as interns and fresh grads. The Goldman people loved the work ethic and intelligence of the students at the Utah schools. The BYU, Utah and Utah State kids could have easily built a pipeline to IB NYC. But they did not. They were not interested.
My point being is that companies will not recruit from schools were nobody is interested in banking. It is a waste of time, money, and resources. I personally would love to have a hard working farm boy/girl from a state school on my team. It will be an interesting prospective and it will be great for clients when dealing with the more blue collar industries. It is just difficult to find them.
Goldman had an IB division in SLC. They gutted it a few years back.
IU has a designated workshop (IBW) with 80+ students who place and a seminar (IBS) that places 30 more students. It’s a sweaty process and over 1000 people apply each year. IU ranks students instead of assigning grades and the same students who finish in the top 5% end up placing the best. I went to a target and my buddy in the program was more technically sound than most of my peers in school and didn’t even finish in the top 40. Alumni network is extremely strong and will go to bat for their people. Definitely a decent choice but if you don’t get into the IBW/IBS then chances of placing are minimal and this happens to hundreds of people each year.
The capital markets workshop program (CMBW) also places a further 40+ into IB
.
Many IU students are from NY/NJ. Know plenty of IU kids who’s parents are an MD in IB, or Partner at a MF. Combine that with their IB workshop and grind mentality, you’ve got a fairly strong pool.
This is a good point. 43% out of state (excluding international students) is a huge part of that reason. Tons of kids with connections and interest in going to/getting back to NYC, Chicago, Houston and even LA/SF.
Thanks for admitting, a lot of people aren’t admitting that when I ask. I was looking at the LinkedIn for IBW and a lot have their prestigious high schools mentioned.
It actually isn’t that difficult. It is all about having someone on staff at the school who is willing to put in the effort.
Kelley has such good placement because of their IB-specific entity (I forget what they call it). What does this entity do? It gets students into the IB recruiting cycle at the right time, it prepares students so they can be ready for the interviews and the jobs, and it provides connections to people on the Street.
Now, most schools can’t just snap their fingers and get relationships on the Street. However, any school can provide the education that is needed to interview well and to do well on the job. Any school can get students into the recruiting process at the right time. And these are the two things that matter most. If a school develops good candidates and get them into the interview process at the right time, they will be competitive. They will be able to get roles. And then the relationships will come downstream of that.
All it really takes is a school to care enough to put in the work
For the existing schools, they often have a single staff member who drove the pipeline. Schools like Indians and UIUC have some of the stronger programs in the midwest, but even 2nd tier state schools like Michigan State have these programs that send 15-20+ kids per year into IB.
I was at what you might call a third tier state school and actually founded our wall street prep program as we didn’t have one. It was driven by me, and we were lucky enough to have a few professors who were former PE guys that helped a bit too. The club has grown and now has moved from 1 kid a year in IB when I graduated to 3-5+ per year these days. Still in early days but I think it’ll stick around as we’ve had some good student leaders keep pushing on it. Keep in mind that my school wasn’t small - over 30k total student body. Just not much ambition to go to wall street for most kids and previously they really didn’t have a path.
At the end of the day, I’ve found life to be pretty fair in the long run. If you hustle and grind and are a good human for long enough, chances are you’ll get pretty close to where you want to be.
You need two things to get this off the ground
1. Have a facility member or someone at the administrative level who has some connections to wall street and understands how the process works who can get kids prepared and in front of employers.
2. Have an administration that is willing to be generous with scholarships to get kids to come to the school who would not go there normally. Once you get the kids to show up and start placing them you get better kids and you don't have to pay as much to get them there. I graduated HS in 2007 and IU offered me in-state tuition and direct admit to Kelly with a 3.5 and 27 ACT (did not end up going there). I'm guessing the kids getting that offer now have much better stats. I'm not sure if they had the specific job training programs at the time, but I'm sure they had something.
IU was the first to realize if you can build this it can do wonders for your reputation as a school, once they had some success with kids from the other midwest states they started getting kids from the east coast who were interested in getting into the business world and wanted a true college experience (big campus, sports, etc) that is really not offered at any of the east coast colleges. These programs are a great way to get kids to these schools who generally enjoy the experience and will come out of there making money so they are more than willing to donate their time and money. If I was a large public school that was hurting for funding this is a great program to start and you can easily get kids from CA (if you can't get into UCLA or Cal you are going out of state if you want a public PAC 12 school) or the east coast who want the traditional college experience and are motivated to get a good job after.
The stats are the same.
But I have heard that after they started getting kids from the east, they naturally brought more connections and money. Because of that they out competed Midwest kids.
That makes sense and I doubt IU really cares as long as those kids place well and give back to the school. I'm willing to bet the midwest kids are more engaged as alumni than the east coasters but who knows. The kids from the Midwest are just going to have to compete a bit harder or they can go to another school in the BIG10 offering a similar but less established program (they all have them now). Also just getting into finance at all in any capacity is a pretty big win for a lot of these kids (even the ones who are well off) don't have much in the way of connections going in.
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