Is it time to give up
Hi, just asking for some advice on recruiting:
Recruiting season has just restarted now (didnt rly recruit during my OC as I didnt want to mess up) and I'm still somehow, starting to get a bunch of interview invites for more IB OCs but realistically, given most OC apps for the coming cycle are still not yet advertised and I missed most of september OC recruiting except for the few interview processes I'm in rn, if I do get another off cycle, it would prob take some more months to come through. (genuinely believe I have a decent chance given the number of interviews I get though its obvs far from guaranteed).
B4 in the UK is rough, outside of the prestige stuff that you are concerned with, the comp is bad and hours can get long certain times of the year. Out of interest, why did you apply Audit instead of Deals Advisory at B4?
I don't know what I would do in this situation - but I would also consider other options. Theres tons of roles that are worse than IB, but are better than b4 that could be attainable due to you having the SA and OC on your CV. Perhaps you could broaden your job search to more divisions and roles
Grades were genuinely low and Big 4 doesnt look at CV so just need to apply with name and grades so went for it as an ultimate ultimate backup. At the point I applied to the B4 role, I also had no clue that even BBs/EBs would interview/offer me places despite the grades honestly.
The thing is due to my grad date, most grad schemes dont seem to accept me (only IB seems to have off cycles which are flexible with grad date) and with regards to recruiting even besides this, i seem to get most interviews for Ib given my CV - like to the point that I've literally interviewed with every single bank for IB before but nothing else even when I shoot out apps for AM/ER/PE etc though I do fewer of these ofc. What sorts of other roles do you mean? Just to be clear, if I took the Big 4 job, I would still recruit as hard as ever for more off cycles/other FT jobs and would personally quit asap.
If ur ok with pming, lmk and can chat there, thank you!
Do you have a 2.2 or something
..
Okay. Do the Audit job because the requirement for a 2.1 is a hard one. On balance, when comparing your CV to others after interviews (because it is so competitive) you'll probably be dinged for the grade.
Do B4, get qualified or certified or whatever it's called and then lateral over. If you decline the role and you don't get any IB you won't get anything.
Honestly I stopped reading at UK
Why?
If I was you, I would put everything into getting TAS-Job inside your Big4. Do Big4 M&A/FDD/Valuation and try going to MM after that... Not as uncommon as it might seem, even though you may lose a year or two.
Hm, wouldnt I have to most prob move after qualifying though (I'm not even in a Ldn office though my regional office is v close to ldn)? Seen loads of ex Big 4 auditors at my IB internships and they all took at least 6 years to make the move which honestly sounds like a nightmare to me haha
Esp since I rly dont think IB is for me long term either and would have just been a great place to start and do a couple years at. Feel like audit>ER would def interest me more though but not sure how hard that would be too though I have seen it done.
Not sure if youd know but would it be possible to apply to TAS grad schemes at the other 3 B4s for next year even if I do start this job? Realise I'd have to start exams etc again but really would not mind this.
I'm just kind of sad I never tried applying to so many jobs in between IBD and this like corp banking/AM/PWM/B4 deals/boutique consultancies etc. as I always got traction w IBD recruiting. Basically just applied to this one B4 audit role out of total panic, realise some ppl dont mind accounting etc, but for me it is like the absolute last thing I would ever ever want to do.
A bit late, but I have seen some 2nd or 3rd years from FDD & M&A as Ana1 in FFM.
I'll add my opinion to those above. I've made several points about this so won't repeat, but B4 to IB / PE / ER is not uncommon (particularly with the intermediate FDD / Deals step).
It will not be fun getting qualified as an auditor. You need to finish top / high in your class to make a chance of transferring, and pass first time. If you drop this opportunity, your university grades will be a problem for IB / PE / etc. roles. So I think dropping it is a risk. And if you aren't able to finish top and pass first time, then your ideal roles might not have been for you in the first place.
I'm sorry if I'm being direct, but I'd encourage you to be pragmatic. You have an opportunity set so many do not have, so I appreciate your self-awareness about the elitism point.
Nws at all, makes a lot of sense and personally too scared to reject the job too haha.
Would your advice have been different if I had a 2:1? And suppose I do qualify, do you believe it could still be an issue? (Was literally 0.1% off being rounded up to a 2:1 if that even makes a diff lol) Do you think dropping out of the job after a year for a masters (if i get a decent one outside the UK) may work?
Reason I didnt explicitly mention that I dont have a 2:1 in the OP was that my experience last cycle was that many IB firms no longer have this as a strict requirement (and smaller boutiques never did), and from my personal experience, it didnt seem to have a great effect on my ability to land interviews/offers last cycle for OC given rest of CV with target school/multiple IB internships and the removal of these grade filters.
Also just contemplating as exams do give me a lot of anxiety+dont enjoy accounting so not sure if signing myself up for this is a great idea compared to just hustling to get in somewhere, even if a small boutique (which never even ask for grades ever) and then lateralling up.
Thanks for replying!
Hi,
If you're genuinely in pain at the idea of Big 4, don't do it - it really feels like you're trying to find any excuse not to. If you go for the Big 4 option (and I think it's a good one), then your heart needs to be in it, or you'll be miserable. You need the energy and determination to smash those exams.
My advice wouldn't change much if you had a 2.1, but it doesn't help that you don't. It's a hypothetical anyway so it's irrelevant to your decision set now (also, you're on an online forum with literal random dudes on the internet so don't be afraid of hiding details that might be relevant in your OP).
I'll leave a couple of other thoughts:
1) I don't know your financial background. I have a guess that you're in a good position, which helps, and if so, a Masters might help you. Here's an idea. Write to your professors and ask them if they can get you onto your own university's Masters program (or if your grades arent high enough, help write references for another university). Masters programs are cash cows for universities so they aren't usually that selective. Hopefully you built good relationships with your professors. If not, then be aware that obviously your 2.2 will be an impediment to using a Masters.
2) There is nothing stopping you applying and working at Big 4 at the same time. You were sort of vague in your OP about why you didn't want to do this but it's entirely possible.
3) You are in a very bad place if you decline this opportunity, apply for OC, don't get anything, and are unemployed for 12 - 24 months.
Good luck making your decision - this is just my two cents, and I don't have all the data, but hopefully my view is fairly clear.
Appreciate the reply, sry if I'm being a bit annoying but rly helps me see things more clearly to discuss this stuff on here.
But anyway, though I'm 95% going to accept anyway, a few more tangible concerns I had were:
- Sure, I can put in apps without this on my CV till September/maybe October, but after this not sure how the just having started the new job on my CV would be viewed esp for OCs. Might just leave it out of the apps but again, that is a risk as I dont know if its allowed/could get me in trouble or not.
- More on me, but just concerned it may impact my ability to either recruit well/do exams alongside being obsessed with recruiting and I know being kicked out of the job due to exam failure would do further damage to my situation which I would not want.
- Think this is just a risk I may need to take, but suppose I do get an off-cycle in eg, January, I would definitely 100% drop out. If this doesnt convert either and I need to go back on the search, I feel having the additional stigma of having quit a job after 3 months of my profile might screw me over further. But as off cycles are my priority, not rly willing to compromise on quitting for them so ig cant do much about it.
Thanks again:-)
That's understood (happiness being the difference between expectation and reality, etc.) and again I hope I'm not coming across as cold or too direct, but I'm sure you have friends / partner for a shoulder to cry on and don't need me / this community for that.
1) I doubt this would get you into trouble. HR won't want to backtrack on a recruitment just because of an outdated CV, and you can always say you applied before you started. Obviously keep in mind any notice period.
2) If the hours of keeping pace with a Big 4 job and recruitment on the side is too intense then I have some really bad news for you about IB. I admit (this is second hand knowledge for the avoidance of doubt) that busy season at Big 4 is truly quire busy though.
3) Doing OCs and not getting return offers is a risk which exists regardless of what you do now. I think you need to abstract from this for your decision-making.
By the way no option is perfect and I realise this isn't what you wanted (it wouldn't be what I want either). But it's a question of being pragmatic and making the best of your current situation. My views are based on:
A) The downside of not accepting Big 4 and not being successful with OCs is really bad. At least with Big 4 you have the chance to get into IB / ER / PE, it just might take longer.
B) Masters sounds good on paper, but your 2.2 doesn't help you get into a good program. If you can get into a good program starting September 2024 by hustling and writing to professors, that changes things.
C) The recruitment market at all levels still sucks a bit.
You never considered applying to corporate banking/securities services/payments, RiskMan or other middle office roles?
No because each time I set out to get an IB internship, I got one so it never came to that point if that makes sense which I agree is a bit annoying. Eg, Y2 I only applied to large banks for IBD and got my SA at one of them. Same with OC after graduating(even w 2:2) where I landed the EB.
In final year I didnt recruit as much as I was planning to do OC after grad(which I did) and then a top UK masters if that didnt work out (but obvs cant now due to grades).
This one Big 4 audit role I applied for was out of a panic moment due to results and nothing else tbh.
I will still be applying to grad roles in corp banking etc after starting now though wherever possible as I wont have 12 months FT exp yet. However, may prefer Big 4+qualification to middle office as I would like to do ER within the next few years and feel this path could get me there if all else fails and I do well.
Any advice appreciated!
Idk, can't speak to B4 --> ER but you might want to network with those who have made the jump.
That changes things, but you think B4 (Audit) gives better opportunities than a middle office role then it makes sense to "suffer" through it. But I would challenge you on this point and ask if AUDIT is really better regarded than a BB middle office role. As in, if you can't break out of audit you are stuck in audit while if you can't break out of corporate banking you still have a good progression and salary track. So there's risk.
As an "outsider", it makes very little sense to me to take a job you hate for the chance of leaving. If you hate accounting, then don't take the job and stay unemployed for a while longer.
You don't like accounting, which makes me hard to believe that you would enjoy IBD in the long run anyway, since it is valuing companies (basic accounting) and pitch-books. Then you said that you would want to take a "WLB" PE job, but you realise that PE is also accounting and building financial models hundreds of rows in length. So I'm not confident that you would enjoy finance as a career.
But anyway, if you hate B4 then I think it makes sense to start at a boutique investment bank and take some risk while you are young. You could afford to give yourself one more year before you have some sort of impetus to start at your first job.
Thanks sm for the thoughts:-).
Honestly - I have to agree with you that I'm not really that into finance/accounting but due to my degree, a finance career is realistically my only option at this point so its smthg I just need to deal with imo.
However, having said that, there is a sort of strategy aspect to roles such as ER/PE/corp dev which I think I would enjoy - eg, analysing companies/their growth stories/reading about different market trends and analysing their impacts. I obvs dont know too much about exits at this stage but I agree I dont want to do IB long term.
Not really sure about PE yet tbh but would have maybe looked at exiting into a strategy/corpdev role if I had done IB, though obviously I dont feel I'm in the position to completely close off PE at my stage if that makes sense.
Regarding the job plans, do you not think I could just recruit as I normally would alongside the job and just quit asap when smthg better comes up (whether this is a good masters outside the UK to reset grad date, or a better role, as I have less to lose this way)? I know B4 isnt a great job , but am just scared that if i let it get to 2 years past grad without anything and botch my IB interviews/get unlucky (plus the 2:2), that I will not find anything.
I agree I dont feel like it's time to completely give up and take B4 audit without recruiting hard alongside as much as possible.
Although I'm not in the finance industry I could empathise with you. My story is this. In high school I had the grades to choose medicine. I wanted to study business but I was convinced not to, because I could "switch over" after I completed my medical degree. Now I have the opportunity to leave medicine to recruit for finance but find myself unable to make the jump due to risk + salary considerations
Technically this is true but practically speaking, once you start something you will have momentum and you will find it hard to leave. Look, rationally speaking, yes you should take the job – but once you take the job you will have a sense of security and your urgency will diminish.
So you lose urgency (drive), you lose time, and you lose experience.
I would rather go all or nothing – as in I would not "settle" especially with a resume full of IBD experiences – and start in a stronger position (esp. given a good chance of landing one of those jobs). B4 Audit is not great preparation unless you could lateral to TAS. Keep in mind that there are many types of "ACA" qualifications and you need the right one to be considered for these high finance roles.
I also want to remind you that "ER" is not very strategic. It is literally a way for banks to sell equity products for their S&T divisions. They are not very accurate and in fact many BB banks recommended to buy Enron days before it collapsed. CorpDev is M&A for corporations, making it quite similar to banking, and PE at the junior level is also looking at these companies and projecting their cash flows using very detailed financial models -> IM + DD -> the actual deal (LBO) + Ops. The role is still quite deal heavy and your value add on the operational side may be minimal. My point is that these IBD roles exits are very similar to investment banking and you really should consider whether you want to start on this path if you don't even like corporate finance.
So the TLDR is if you don't like corporate finance in addition to A&F then I would look for other careers ASAP (like a management/strat/bis dev/ops grad scheme)
Also you may or may not have considered other financial careers like private credit, REPE, CRE, some VC roles or the central bank. There are many more niche roles in London and I heard it's quite easy to get a REPE/CRE grad role
Quick question - do you speak any EU languages?
Your CV or profile otherwise must be god-tier if you still get so many interviews.
Yeah I do. But I wouldnt say anything about my profile is god tier or anything tbh, think it's just as simple as HR scanning CV for a few secs and giving interviews to ppl w brand names on there. Plus a load of randomness and luck too.
What language
Ah I see, I guess luck is a major factor. I always felt like I get shafted for not knowing any languages which is why I asked. The people who seem to escape this always have a proper Oxbridge background.
For reasons beyond me, Arma/Evercore/Moelis have never given me interviews but I know they have to others with way shittier profiles.
Went B4 audit to valuations group in a MM bank to top tier BB IBD at associate level.. don’t give up
Nice, congrats:-) and thanks for replying to me, may I ask what exits are available to you as an associate in IB after coming in the longer way? If you for example, choose to leave in 1-2 yrs?
Asking as honestly, I'm personally not sure if I want to go for that route as from my internships I rly dont think IBD is for me longer term.
Also, do you have any tips on making the move to TAS/Rx by any chance? Or did you manage to move directly to MM valuations/how did you manage to do that? Would probably be trying for a TAS/Rx move regardless of whether I want to do IB as it seems like a good stepping stone for a few other roles I may be interested in too.
Thanks a lot!!:-)
Based on my conversations with friends in the industry, my particular coverage group specifically at the BB I work at places very strong to HFs and MF PE. Granted, these opportunities are usually targeted to the on-cycle analysts. Being an associate coming in at the post-MBA (without having done and MBA), my connects in the industry are still very confident I can find my way into a HF or a UMM PE shop (mainly given the group and name I’m in). If I decide I don’t want that, I’d consider going corporate. But as of now I’m really going to see if I’d potentially want to do this long term where I’m at. But it’s nice to know I will still have a good shot at these off-cycle opportunities.
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