Mental disability & IB
Hello guys, I hope life is treating you well.I came here today to ask about something that is a bit hard to share: should your employer know that you suffer cognitive disabilities?For context, I have a hispanic/latino background and suffer from ADHD and Asperger's. It hasn't conditioned my life on a functional level, as I was lucky enough to be screened and treated early: most people can tell there is something off with me, but cannot pinpoint what it is exactly.Life has been nice, and right now I'm studying a double bachelor's in data science applied to finance and economics in a national top-10 uni.Nonetheless, even if I can do it, I have always had to put a lot more effort than my peers and considered joining the support programs to avoid burnout. I was wondering wether I should tell the banks or not when I apply: I think the stigma that would come with it might outweigh the benefits.What would you do? Are you or know someone in this situation?
I apologize too for the disorderly nature of the text, I tried to changing a few things and the app clumped it up together.
Hello mate,
Appreciate you sharing - never an easy thing to do, especially on a semi-anonymous website like WSO.
Can't say I know anyone officially who's been in the same situation as you (i.e. I don't know - off the top of my head - of anyone who's explicitly disclosed they're neurodiverse), however I've certainly worked with people who, as you termed, seemed slightly "off" (I term I personally wouldn't use to describe yourself or anyone else - everyone's different in their own unique way, and it's not for others to judge whether or not you fit their norms).
What I can say is that these people I've worked with have been some of the most competent professionals in their area, and it is by no means a disadvantage. You're doing all the right things by studying a relevant degree at a top university, so - on the face of it - you have all the core attributes necessary to break into finance.
In terms of applications...
I think it's a bit more tricky here. I know a lot of top banks are now targeting neurodiverse candidates to widen their talent pool and broaden diversity more generally, however a cursory view of these schemes indicates to me that these are often for professionals in risk, operations, etc. If you want to target front office roles, I think you have three options:
1) Don't disclose on any applications: will mean you don't face any possible stigma at the early stages, however - in the event you get a role - you may be met with some confusion if, down the line, you ask for support. Not to say you won't get it - and the banks should definitely provide support here - however rather than getting the immediate support and sympathy you deserve, you may instead encounter some confusion / frustration.
2) Disclose on all applications: means you may face a hurdle at the start (no matter how wrong that hurdle may be), but - in the event you get an offer - you'll have options for support immediately presented to you, and people will be far more understanding of your neurodiverse background.
3) Pick-and-choose on which applications you choose to disclose: this may mean, if you worry it might stigmatise your application, not disclosing on your top choices, but disclosing on secondary and tertiary preferences. This way, as you get further and further into applications, you get a better idea of what sort of firms are more receptive, which are not, and how to go about "gaming" the system. You could even do it on a like-for-like basis (e.g. disclose to Goldman, don't disclose to JPM, disclose to BAML, don't disclose to Citi, etc.)
I'd suggest doing some research into the firms you're looking to applying to and seeing what neurodiverse programmes (if any) they're currently offering, and for which sort of roles they apply to. If I were you, I'd probably opt for option number (3) above, as I think it provides the most flexibility and, in the long term, will help you collect the most information relevant to you.
Hope this helps - YDFoR
Thanks a lot for the reply! It was extremely insightful, I think I will probably opt for the third option: it would be a smart way of "testing the waters" without losing anything.
ReIating other roles, I dream of front-office in M&A or debt markets, but it's true I had been offered back-office jobs in hedge funds and consulting firms by people who knew one way or the other about it, and told me it was fine.
I would like to apologize, too, if you found any remark I made to be disrespectful: what I meant by the "off" comment is that I am able to more or less conceal the conditions, not from polite and understanding people like yourself but from those who might have more trouble understanding how it works - i.e.: training to look in the eye to avoid looking intense or not interested.
Thanks a lot for your advice! I find the cover letter idea quite brilliant. To be frank, I didn't like the idea of using my ethnicity to get into IB but I realized that maybe it is necessary.
Regarding your advice, I really appreciate you shared your sibling's situation; I understand him and how S&T could be a better choice, but I really like the work in IB.
In my case, I am very pro-social and enjoy talking to people; with the therapy, the Asperger's just makes it harder for these interactions to be natural with active effort on my part.
I second Lime Connect. They have a fellowship program for sophomores. There corporate partners include a bunch of financial service firms/banks like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, and BlackRock. I know they have partners in tech and consulting too.
Thanks for sharing! Unfortunately, I live outside the US so Lime Connect isn't a viable option for the moment; nonetheless, it does look like a very solid support network.
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Thanks a lot for sharing your personal experience: honestly, I found extremely motivating and energising that everything turned out to be great for you!
I would be very happy if we could discuss it, so I will send you the message.
Just curious how the diagnosis for AD works. I’ve always been a bit off socially speaking and wonder if I have mild AD.
Hello! I would say they focus not only in your way of socializing, but also in your way of thinking and interpreting the world.
For instance, one of the things my parents always said I should "work on" and got them concerned in the first place was my mental rigidity: many teachers would complain as a child that I asked too much regarding the reasoning behind the subjects being taught, and that I would get frustrated to the point of crying if something "wasn't consistent or systematic".
Personally, I would recommend you read a bit about the symptoms of the disorder and see if it rings a bell; then, if you suspect it can really be the case, talk with a neurologist and analyze what options they give you.
Feel free to send me a message if you want to talk a bit more about it! I would be more than happy to help.
Do you mind if I DM you?
Myself and others around me have also suspected that I might be on the spectrum..
Lime Connect is recommended.
They have regular private events with their corporate partners which include several desirable companies.
They are mainly focused on the U.S. and Canada though. Where are you located?
Hello! Thanks for the recommendation. I read about the program and it looks amazing; unfortunately, I am currently based in Madrid, Spain and therefore out of their reach.
I want to move to Miami or London eventually, as I have family on both, so maybe I could find that program or similar ones over there.
Everyone has ADHD and hella people have Asperger's/low grade Autism, most of which don't even realize it. I wouldn't feel so "disabled", if I were you. I don't know the extent of your condition but it's not like you have Down Syndrome or Parkinsons and I don't think you should disclose it or bring it up ever.
It is true that it's not disabling, as I can live a functional life; nonetheless, as you can see in other comments, it can be a bit stressful to hold your true emotions and way of being throughout the day, so having your coworkers know about your condition can be quite relieving.
Nonetheless, I understand your point and I am thankful of your input: your honesty is much appreciated.
I'm also on the spectrum, but "high functioning". I never worked in IB but I did intern in equity research once. In hindsight I wish I'd been up front about it from the start, maybe not during the application process but certainly to my direct colleagues when I was starting out. Because once you start working on the desk with these people sooner or later they realize there is something "off" about you and the way you interact socially. I think it's better to get ahead of it and let your colleagues know right away, so they understand and don't get turned off by certain behaviour patterns you exhibit. Also, as others have mentioned, big banks are now starting to promote neurodiversity in the workplace so who knows, it could even play to your advantage.
You've hit the Jackpot mate. Banks are obliged by law to hire people with disabilities as a proportion of total hires. Combined with the fact that you're from an ethnic minority and that you go to a good school studying a very analytical degree, you would be picked right off the bat imo
Lots of aspies at banks. Go see the quants in model risk.
I thought about something similar- have something like OCD/Anxiety/ADHD. On firms whose disability check box included the thing I have in description, I checked it. They’ll never ask you what it is and there’s not even a box or anything to include more info or anything like that. Honestly- checking the disability box might help you, if they’re looking to add some type of diversity from that.
I don’t work there but I remember I checked the box for Moelis and I got a super there, so shoutout to Moelis I guess.
Appreciate you posting this.
Asperger syndrome used to be its own separate diagnosis, but it got absorbed into ASD as a part of DSM-5 in 2013.
Huge mistake, in my opinion. It trivializes and marginalizes the emotionally brutal pain, trauma, and feeling of isolation and helplessness of parents and family members that take care of people with (for lack of a better term) "classic" autism.
It makes absolutely zero sense to put a truly disabled person (classic autism as defined under DSM-3, which means someone who cannot verbally communicate, unable to live an independent life, and will most likely be institutionalized after the parents/guardians die unless siblings or other family step in to take care of them) in the same category as someone who would previously be considered Asperger syndrome which means someone who, despite some minor quirks or impediments ("something off"), can fully communicate verbally, and will ultimately be able to live an independent (i.e. have a career) and fulfilling life (e.g. get married, start a family, etc.)
I'm just going to say it because anyone telling you otherwise is doing you a disservice and doesn't have as much experience in the field. Unfortunately, finance is a profession that boils down to personal relationships and social intelligence to advance beyond the junior level in your career. You could probably skate by as analyst, associate, maybe VP but your limitations will hold you back and all that investment earlier in your career will not pay off. The actual work done in this field is largely a commodity and relationships/politics matter more than you think.
I would explore fields such as computer science which your situation will not impact you negatively. It seems like you are a smart guy who will have career options so I would just adjust expectations accordingly. In life, I have always found that one of the greatest strengths one can have is being honest with themselves and their limitations, whether it be a disability or something more simple such as low tolerance for monotony (which there is a lot of in finance).
Given a lot of juniors exit to HF, PE etc., which are not people businesses, does it really matter? OP could do fine.
Currently in PE and yes social intelligence and acumen matters a lot. It is a people's business. I can't speak for Hedge funds but in very competitive roles there are 10 qualified people for 1 seat so your chances without any limitations is already very difficult.
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