New guy, leaving at 5 because I don't have anything to do. MD is pissed.
I just finished my first week at a 60-person boutique. (My firm does sell-side M&A for large marinas and watersports, etc.)
Because it was my first week, I was given a variety of onboarding tasks and told to have them finished by Friday. I wrote out a schedule and was able to finish each day's task by 5PM, sometimes a little earlier. After asking the analyst next to me if there was anything he needed help with (there wasn't) I decided my time would be better spent working out and clearing my mind than staring at my screen until midnight.
So I did that every day this week. Out by 5 cause nobody had anything else for me to do.
Then today, I get called into our MD's office and he is pissed. Says its not acceptable to leave before 9pm. I calmly explained to him that I didn't have anything to do and asked if he wanted me to just waste my time if there legitimately wasn't anything I could do.
Overall, he took the whole thing very poorly and said something about "back to square one filling the analyst slot." So now my job is at at risk and he wants me to waste my time?
I know IB is notoriously toxic, but this is insane. How would yall approach a guy like this?
Leave. Why would you want to work for someone like that? Im all about the hustle but wow that guy needs to look in the mirror and ask himself why he isn’t generating enough deal flow to keep the team busy… maybe ask him that?
Literally every bank is like this, where’s OP supposed to go lol
C'mon dude. No junior leaves the desk at 5PM several days in a row without good reason; you're just asking to get called out. You don't have work to do? Then go flip through some previous decks. Go poke around previous models. Read up on the industry. You have to play the game, instead of thinking you're above it all. Suck it up.
Nobody should downvote this. In a fair world OP's moves make sense, but this job is all about the perception of being busy, even if you aren't.
I mean it’s not just perception. The comment is saying that you should spend *extra* time *actually* making yourself better at the job. Learn how to model, review previous models and deals, learn about industry, etc.
It’s not crazy for an analyst or associate to spend time getting better on top of their own work. For your first few months on the job yeah you might wanna make sure your seniors see you do that. Your team doesn’t know you yet, if you leave at 5 every day they’ll assume you’re a stupid jerk off not fit for the job.
After your teammates know you THEN the whole bouncing at 5 to hit the gym and logging back in from home can fly, but not on week 1 when you haven’t worked on a single deal pitch to close yet lol.
this is absolute bullshit. OP is completely correct. go fuck yourself
Naw, similar to OP, you're just the first word of your username.
OP can stay at least until 7-9pm if that's what people around him are doing. We all signed up for this and part of it is being on standby.
First in last out at the junior level is very much the standard still. I think people have gotten a bit confused since the phenomenon of COVID remote work.
coming from another angle, leaving aside whether or not you should or shouldn’t be allowed to leave and whether boomers gonna boom etc. I think your response was not thought through and you didn’t play the game right.
You should’ve just told him he was right and that it wouldn’t happen again etc. At the minimum you would’ve appeased him and shown you understand chain of command and that you have an ego small enough that you can deal with this stuff (even if unreasonable). You can then decide if that’s a place you want to work for but that’s separate
Disagree strongly. Our new analysts leave at 5 during the ramp up period until they start getting staffed on deals that make them busy. No one cares.
I'm at a top group at a bb.
Forget about this joker place op. "Not acceptable to leave before 9" wtf. Most teams at my bb analysts leave around 7 and go wfh.
Why does the md care? Most mds are leaving by 6 anyways.....how would he even know? Such a strange thing for an MD to be involved in or care about. This is obviously a bucket shop chit bank.
Look to lateral asap. Also name and shame.
Dude is not lateraling anywhere with this random boutique on this resume in this market
I'd rather be an uber driver than deal with this chit culture team.
Dude, you did this ALL wrong.
While at a lot of firms it is acceptable to leave early during the onboarding process, it is not acceptable at all firms. It's fine that you didn't know this (sort of) - as others have mentioned, you should have stuck around and reviewed previously created decks and models to get up to speed as to how your firm does things.
What is totally not acceptable is when your MD called you into his office and told you that you've been leaving too early, that you didn't immediately apologize but instead gave him what appeared to be a lot of attitude. You basically questioned his intelligence, which no person, let alone the person who will likely have a lot of feedback on your performance and bonus, would appreciate. You should have just said "I'm very sorry, and I definitely understand this for the future." Instead, you tried to sound like a smart ass and pushed back as the literal newest person on the team who is the biggest unknown.
If I were you, I'd try to catch him in his office in the morning or at some point during the day when it's a bit slower for him, and apologize for how things went and that you'd be sure to course correct. You want to get back on the right track with him, and showing that you're capable of taking in criticism, rather than being reactionary to it, is something that he will likely appreciate.
No. You are why ib culture sucks. Not everywhere is like this.
No. You entirely missed the point of what I said.
I mentioned above that a lot of shops aren’t like that, and that it was okay he wasn’t aware.
The problem is that once the MD brought this up as an issue to the analyst, rather than saying “okay, sorry about that, will do” and literally finish his 5 days of training a little bit longer than he’d originally been intending, he dug into his heels as the newest, lowest person on the totem pole towards someone who has a ton of political power.
What do you suggest he should’ve done then?
Not endorsing the MD's comments or policy, but do have to agree that he shouldn't have given him attitude about it. Not because the 9pm policy is bullshit (it is), but because when you're entry level in IB, or literally any other job, eating shit from seniors with a smile on your face is part and parcel of the job because you have zero leverage, experience, or ground to stand on when pushing back. If you value your reputation in the group going forward, it's simply not a smart thing to do.
I didn't start leaving the office before seniors until I was really confident that I was outperforming the other analysts in my group. I know for a fact that it pissed a couple of the VPs and one of the MDs off, but they had less sway than the other seniors in the group and I wasn't staffed with the so I didn't give a fuck. That said, when I was new, I was acutely aware of how little I knew so I spent a lot of time going through old models, decks, and reading industry stuff because I was paranoid about being caught flat-footed if my number got called. Face time culture is stupid, but it would be concerning to me if a new analyst wasn't interested in pro-actively learning...Every analyst I knew or worked with that turned out to be good had that and every one I've known who didn't thought they were a lot smarter than they were and annoyed the fuck out of ppl to work w/.
OP, if nothing else, I will commend you for having a tremendous set of balls because I absolutely wouldn't have had the stones to leave before seniors or push back at all during my first week on the job. Also, f you don't want ppl to know what firm you're at, you may want to get rid of the description of the niche industry that your group focuses on because I'm 99% sure I know where you work and bet a lot of others are too.
God speed.
Seems IB is an industry for bitch-made men.
Lol. While I commend you for posting under your username so that we can look at your post history, it’s so silly to see a college freshman post something like this while at the same time giving out advice on networking and the type of people you work for in investment banking, all while telling an intern lower in this thread that you love when interns pipe in on shit they don’t have a clue about.
Talk about projection - you are an actual clown
If I’m reading it right it sounds like you prorated the tasks evenly across the week, allowing you to leave early each day. I think that’s the issue. You shouldn’t leave early if you know there’s still work left to do. In other words, you should stay later and finish the tasks in 2-3 days rather than purposefully drawing them out as long as possible just so you can leave early. Just cause someone says By Friday doesn’t mean you’re not supposed to finish earlier if possible.
To be fair I don’t think it takes staying until midnight to understand how marinas are valued. How is that market deep enough to warrant its own boutique?
Best piece of advice I got from a mentor when I used to be an uppity analyst was the industry is not going to change culture just for you. If you feel like the industry culture should change, you are not going to be the person to do it so either suck it up or leave.
I wouldn’t want to work with you because your judgment seems awful.
I don’t care about face time, but others do. And this is a historically employer-friendly market. Why not learn the drill before ditching at 5pm? My assistant stays later than that while adding way more value.
Whatever. Your MD convo is what catapulted this story into the twilight zone. Pushing back in that situation with such laughable arguments (lol fuck your progress on your self-imposed schedule) was a poor choice. he just told you face time matters. You needed to promise to do better and then either figure out how to improve your WLB there or plan a lateral move. This isn’t the 2021 labor market.
I don’t know if they’ll fire you ASAP, but first impressions are nearly impossible to shake. I doubt you have a long, happy tenure there.
I blame them for hiring you almost as much as your judgment. Why do interviews if they can’t suss out such a massive cultural incompatibility?
I don't want to work with you either boyo.
Please do not lateral to my group(I can dm you my group so you know where to not come).
Any md whining about a new analyst on boarding not being in office until 9pm is a total loser MD(and I've worked with some really bad ones). He is not to be respected or taken seriously. The fact you are more turned off by OP pushing back than this bucket shop no namer MD micromanaging a new analysts first weeks face time tells me all I need to know about you and the culture you support. I'm sure your analysts love working for you!
Who said anything about me lateraling?
Lots of MDs are weird, high-strung, and/or completely unreasonable. News at 11. It is stupid to cry about variables that you can’t control. New first year analysts control nothing. All they can do is use common sense, do good work, and eventually leverage their value to extract concessions. Good associates and senior analysts are hard to find.
This should be 100% intuitive to you, fellow investment banking vice president. You sound like three analysts standing on each other inside a trench coat wearing a fake mustache.
Your logic isn't incorrect, but if that's going to be your attitude, you should pick a different line of work.
It's really not. Outsiders only think it is because of comments like yours, but (almost) everyone in the industry knows the deal. You get paid fairly large sums of money to perform a fairly non-technical job, at the expense of longer hours. We're not paying you, a fresh college grad, double the compensation of the average corporate worker, for your genius brain. Leaving at 5 everyday for a week straight is pretty outrageous considering there's a lot that can be learned in your first week.
Who cares if you're done with your task? Go ask your boss for another, or learn about your firms processes, so you won't waste my time teaching you later. As a junior, your boss was simply telling you that face time matters, and instead of nodding and agreeing, you decided to be disrespectful and talk back. And you're surprised he's angry? Sometimes you just have to suck it up, and go with the culture. It's why Wall Street has had a preference for athletes in the past, or ivy league kids who understand the grind.
Anybody who disagrees with this opinion hasn't actually worked in the industry, or will soon be phased out, like yourself. No wonder you work in boat M&A.
This is a marina investment banking chit shop lol...not morgan stanley tmt....
Lol at caring about FaceTime at this crappy bank
That's such a shit mentality, and self defeating. It's his job, and just because it's less prestigious than another, doesn't mean he should put in less effort. Especially if he wants to work his way up to a better firm. If you feel like you're too good for a role, don't take it and go get that offer at Menlo Park.
This guy is in his first week and left at 5pm every day 😂 If I was your boss I’d fire you
Always nice to see interns piping up about shit they don’t understand lol
You literally said in a previous comment you are recruiting for SA 2025
🤡
Learn to play politics bud. This isn’t the way. You may think you don’t need too and your work product will take care of itself…you would be incorrect.
I have 3 words for you that my father wisely imparted on me about work after I complained to him or told him what was going on:
Play The Game
always stuck with me, and believe me, he was right
At the end of the day, both sides are somewhat justified. For the OP, yes, on one hand, if you finish your work and have nothing else to do, why not leave? The culture of facetime is eroding, people are WFH, I understand where you're coming from, especially as a Gen Z employee. Modern workplaces, tech companies, etc would embrace this and even some banks as well. I don't think it's uncommon at all for analyst/associates during their training periods to be pretty much 9-5 for the 8 weeks or so they're training until they get staffed up. With that said, banking is still banking, you're not at a tech company, and while there might be a handful of very progressive boutique shops, I would anticipate that your'e there to work like a banker. You're also an analyst and even though your "work" is done, there's plenty for you to learn from going through old materials, brushing up on your excel/PPT skills, hell, you want to do PE in the future? Switch to a banking group that isn't focused on watersports...start prepping for interviews, it's a great time to ramp up and frankly I'd be grateful for a boutique firm that doesn't throw you right into the fire.
Your MD is likely a bit of an ass and it sounds like the firm might be a little more old school, but with that said, most investment banks aren't letting people leave at 5pm, even if there's nothing going on, especially the untenured analysts. I think you need to read the room a bit and 1. Probably just suck it up and do a little extra facetime for the first few months 2. Understand how the game is played in banking. Personally, if I were your MD, I'd probably be pissed too, it shows a lack of motivation on your end. Again, if the culture seemed super chill and the office was empty at 5pm, then I think you're safe to leave, but man, week 1, full office, you're the first one out? I don't care if you're an analyst or a Partner, if I'm new to a job, I want to show that if nothing else, I'm there to hustle and work.
So yea, if I were you, I'd go and apologize to the MD, say there was a misunderstanding and that you're committed to the firm and hope that the miscommunication isn't reflective of the excitement you have for the work and your willingness to work hard if needed. And then I'd make sure for the next 3 months that you're FILO'ing it (first in last out) regardless of what you have going on.
At the end of the day, banking is mostly attitude and work ethic you can kind of suck at your job, but if you're grinding and trying, you'll probably be fine. Even if you're god's gift to banking, if you're a smartass analyst, you're not going to go far. Take it as a lesson learned and keep your head down.
Not everyone is built for that corporate facetime office politics bullshit. You did the right thing, but you're in the wrong environment for all that. Personally, I think more like OP, and I found out pretty fast that I'm unemployable in firms like that because that type of bullshit just eats away at my soul. If I'm efficient and finish my work early, I'm not going to want to sit at my desk and jerk off all night because it looks good in the office. I rather workout, work on a side hustle, get laid, sleep, sleep, idk maybe sleep. People like OP are going to have trouble in banking. Thankfully, there's like a million ways to make money. You'll find your way.
Idc what line of work you are in, you cannot talk back to an MD in your first week. You will not survive any corporate environment with that level of arrogance.
I agree with you that it is completely retarded for you to sit around for hours doing nothing just to keep the appearance up, but I'm afraid that is how banking works. First of all, it's an industry where you are expected to be available until at least midnight. Secondly, it does not sit well with people that are working past midnight when the new guy leaves at 5 pm.
Be in the office until at least 11 pm, at least during your first few months. If you leave before midnight, make sure you ask everyone that you're working with if there is anything you can do to help. There will be downtime, so use it wisely and try to learn during that time. Play around with the model, go through previous decks to learn what happened on the project before you joined, read news, read up on the industry etc. Once you have spent all your time in the office for a few months / your first year, you can start slipping away if there is nothing to do but you need to handle it in a better way.
Rather than saying you are done for the day and you're heading home, you make up an excuse if it's very early. If you're leaving at 5pm, you say that you have a delivery at 6 pm and will switch to home office. Of course, you will be available from home office the entire night and your colleagues just need to call you or shoot a message if they need anything from you. Make sure that you are also online on teams until midnight or so, even if you're not working. If you're done a bit later (after 8-9 pm), there is no need to make up an excuse, you can just say you're switching to home office and stay online.
To be honest, you messed up badly by mouthing against the MD. You are not wrong, but it's a question of attitude. Banking is extremely hierarchical and going against your seniors in that fashion is never a good idea. If I were you, I would push a few really hard nights to make sure people view you as a hard worker. Make sure to take on a lot of work so that you have to push a few nights until 4-6 am. Make sure this is seen by sending out the product right before you leave etc. Make sure that your work is high quality so that the assoc / VP on your team likes you.
After building up the rep with the team in the fashion mentioned above (should just take 1-2 weeks), set up coffee chats with some of your VPs. If everything feels good, ask them for advice on how to handle the situation with the MD. Information in banking is shared much more widely than you know and people see more than you think. If you do a really good job, the information will reach the MD. I would also highly recommend that you (after asking your VPs for advice) in some type of way apologize / solve things directly with the MD. Otherwise, the two of you will always have a very awkward relationship and that will create a lot of issues for you.
You should have told your boss you need more work, as it looks like you'll be done early. Instead you just left and then gave him attitude. I would fire you too.
Some of the people in this thread are wearing rose tinted glasses from 2021. Entitled and stupid behavior at your paygrade assuming you make what most IB kids too...
Honestly, I am shocked to be reading what is in OP. Seems like behavior from an employee making $60k a year, not 6 figures.
Welcome to IB - the only industry that punishes you for leaving when your work is finished.
I stand on the side that encourages you to leave when your work is finished. Only those who are disillusioned by this job think it actually matters and it’s a good idea for you to “practice modeling” and “get better at deck making” when you have nothing to do.
Leave. Go to the gym. Go on a date. Get a beer with friends/family. Take the early dismissals where you can because eventually you’ll be drowning with work and won’t have a choice whether or not you can leave at 5-6pm on a Wednesday.
Of course you do because you’re a first year analyst. Sorry, pal, it’s not a 9-5. With very rare exceptions should you ever leave a finance job before your boss as a junior finance team member. Call it BS or bad culture or whatever but if you’re in IB/PE/HF then that’s the deal you signed up for. You’re paid a ton of money for your time. At least until you’ve proven yourself, if you won’t give your time then you’re not going to get the money. If you don’t like the trade then corporate life is for you (absolutely nothing wrong with that). We’re also talking guys that are going to leave the office by 7, not like you have to stay till 11 for no reason.
Don’t take it personal but I’m a bit shocked by how terrible of a take you have. No one is advocating to practice making slides. I can see a case to practice modeling but when people are saying to go through old models/materials, they’re saying to do it so the new guy has a better understanding of what his clients do and how their business works. Surprised an analyst doesn’t get that.