Non-nepo referrals getting discarded (mostly depressed rant)
Idk what to do anymore and don't have anyone who will understand so bear with me on a Friday night.
I've had referrals from two CEO/Founder/President level people at EBs, and a couple more global head at BBs. And I grew up in a tiny Asian country in the middle of an insurgency/guerrilla warfare.
(So, no prior personal connections, grew up dirt poor in a country with no rep in finance, and non-div cause Asia. Hence, all my relationships have been either met at an event and I chatted them up or mostly pure cold outreach - thoughtful emails followed by calls resulting in them liking me and referring me to HR.)
Now the issue is I did undergrad in the US but MFin in Canada, so I don't currently have work authorization to work in the states. Need H1B just to start and of course it was a no-no at not only BBs but also even the most visa-friendly banks like Evercore despite a Sr MD referral - which I can understand it's a stupid risky lottery.
I have work authorization to work in Canada. But Canada's hiring market rn is non-existent at the junior level. If you're here, you'll know otherwise it sounds unreal. IB - only a few postings in the last year (most of them already say preferred candidate identified, so compliance postings or a few lateral). Had an off-cycle BB posting in Toronto that I made to Superday (despite only person with no prior IB experience) but saw on WSO that whoever got the offer say they personally knew the hiring MD, so obv. I didn’t get the only one available spot.
Default advice from some US MDs was do whatever you can rn and do business school. But even whatever you can is non-existent in Canada rn. I have people from my class doing completely unrelated jobs and a couple just doing sales to pass their time while they recruit. I also interviewed at no-name boutiques here and even they said they don’t have the deal-flow rn and are only interviewing to maintain a candidate pipeline (imagine my disappointment after the interviews). And Big4 whatever else you can think of, already reached out, mostly no-response, or if response: not hiring, or laying off, or hiring freeze till end of year, and so on. I have a CEO referral on one hand and went on delivering food for the first time walking in a flash flooding and soaking rain with unexpected 2 humongous bags of food on the other hand.
And the only "opportunities" I've gotten for here were two startup HFs. One starting out with a back-test "Sharpe Ratio of 9" with no AUM that wanted me on fundraising (Imagine how fast I ran). Another who said he can hire me but doesn't have the budget to pay me. Man's gotta eat. Have had a successful PM who really liked me but he says he doesn't have the time to train me so won't hire me, but he's been trying to introduce me here and there, just no hiring going on rn.
Discovered I can get the top 50 uni work visa thing in the UK on my own ~two months ago. So tried networking there. No luck with replies (unlike the US) besides a single JPM MD. And asked my wonderful US contacts to possibly refer me there.
But the thing is the moment HR realizes you are not related to the person – despite the person being the literal founder or President/CEO of the bank – you can see their friendly and servicing attitude change mid-call. And then you end up being ghosted. And then at other banks, the senior MDs who referred me got poached. So even if I was in touch with HR and I said I’m okay with anything off-cycle or even the analyst class for next year, I get ghosted after one of the two incidents. And then auto-rejected in a day from most applications just cause I already graduated.
And in general, banks like GS/JPM say “we have more of a structured hiring process, you should try the boutiques like Q/LT as they are more unstructured and will be a lot willing to hire off-cycle. Then once you a get a couple years of experience reach back out to us, we’ll take you. We generally poach anyways.” Then people at firms like Q/LT say the exact opposite. "Just do somewhere like GS/JPM, they have a more structured hiring and training programs. And once you have that initial experience, be in touch. You can always join us."
So, who’s gonna take me first? Lol.
And I’m not being picky with prestige or whatever (as my shared experiences before). But, I just get responses from people at like GS/JPM/EVR/Laz than MMs like WB/HL or smaller no-name firms.
I don’t think I really need advice, as I’ve had plenty of people giving me advice on a daily basis, it’s just the circumstances keep fucking me up. And I just needed to share it to a place where people would understand.
Even when slots are available in Canada, they are mainly reserved for females as Old Fart at the top needs to deliver on his DEI targets so by hook or by crook he will have females recruited and retained in IB
I've not firsthand experienced it at least knowingly, but have seen a lot of specific programs. But the nepo cases I've heard/seen first hand - D/MDs openly bragged how they got their semi-qualified nephew/neice on their team at events after a drink or two.
Even for OCR events at school, two of the Big 5 said they don't take masters or that you will not be returning to school for SA. Then same banks took people from my own class - who graduated with me (girl/or guy with prior connections apparently).
Had a referral from a head of Capital Markets of the province at another Big 5, but apparently he retired and I don't have his personal email, and I never heard back from the recruitment team again. Lol.
Tbh higher level "referrals" arent as helpful as an Analyst or ASO saying they will put ur resume in the mix. At the global head or even founder level, hiring an analyst is so low on their priorities you prob got forgotten within 2 hours. Also they are so far away removed from analyst they cant rlly do too much for you. I would be surprised if they even knew who was running the hiring process.
Also only one BB hires off-cycle in Toronto and they only ever hired from one school. Good for you for making superday I guess. I know the past two off-cycle interns at that BB and none of them know the MD personally so that post is BS.
Best of luck tho. Your circumstances are much more understanding and your attitude is much better than that Giveadvicepls/Bradpitt bot that was spamming this forum.
You're not up to date – giveadvicepls has 2 more alt accounts separate from those two
Thanks for the response. I'm aware about the recruiting hierarchy. Of course, I networked with An/Asso - particularly more so in the US, but when you need a cross-continental referral, you need someone senior. And no juniors in London replied anyway. Hence, I only mentioned senior folks. Plus, I've experienced EBs are leaner so they generally directly put me in touch with the head of recruitment. I didn't actively go out to network seeking referrals from senior folks, they offered.
And the BB posting wasn't an internship, it was a full-time. And I did see a couple months later who got hired - had similarities with the MD who interviewed me on SD. So the story checked out, and when I got back on WSO, the comment was wholly edited to 4 words lol. Pissed me off when I found out and connected the dots but it is what it is.
And thanks for the best wishes.
Can I ask what bb is was? Was it Barclays?
Can I ask which bb hires offcycle as I am trying to prep for next year
Goldman and Waterloo
GS does 8 month offcycle
You need to leave Canada, it’s a shithole. I’m Canadian and the amount of nepo hiring is absurd. Everything about Canada sucks, and leaving the US was your mistake. Find a way back there even if it means doing more schooling. The longer u stay the worse it is. Stop kissing ass for the Big five. In the US CIBC, BMO or whatever are all LMM yet these kids act like they’re hot shit at these places. Leave.
Thanks, I appreciate the advice. My undergrad was a highly different field that got regulated heavily and finance was a pivot.
I came to Canada because of personal reasons, but it ruined the professional aspect. So the plan is to leave as soon as possible.
But, I need some work ex to get into a good MBA, so trying whatever here before MBA. Hopefully get something in London, so I don’t have to do MBA cause I got no money for it.
I’d call it a quits on IB tbh and try to get into something. There are kids literally holding out for IB, don’t be them, it’s stupid and won’t get you far. I’ve been inside the process and sometimes we just do Candidacy checks to see the market with no intention on hiring. Also, It’s easy to get a job when you have a job so you can always try later with experience - many of my friends have done this. What I would do is try to get into something and save some money and get out. Don’t do London it’s also a shithole with a ton of other sociopolitical issues relating to European mass migration just like Canada.
Also, why didn’t you just stay in the US don’t you guys get OPT?
Fact that bro’s raw and authentic post and every comment got MS’ed just showing the pettiness and jealousy of Canadians.
So glad I left.
And OP, keep pushing. There’s light at the end of the tunnel. Looks like you’re very capable, great soft skills, and have the right attitude. No matter what comes your way, you’ll be successful.
How did you leave and where did you go?
Path is a little too specific so don't want to share. But I went to the US.
I’m experiencing the exact same in LDN, OP. Even with MD referrals.
Specifically, the “who’s going to hire me first conundrum” is a painful one, when you are performing at the interviews
Thanks for sharing man. It has indeed been a terrible year so far.
I didn't apply to UK grad schemes while still in school cause I was focused on the US and didn't know about the UK visa. So that was a missed opportunity.
Now, everywhere people are saying, yeah the door is open, hit us up whenever you want to join us down the road.
But I want to join now, bro. Take me now, haha.
What kind of school you went to in the US?
State school, non-target. But it was a different, specialized field of study.
have you looked into corp dev at infra type firms ? data centers? renewables ?
Reach out to ppl who went to schools in the US and are based in CAnada. They may be more inclined to help
I interviewed for a couple PE and CorpDev internships around graduation. PE firms said "you're overqualified (masters)" or "oh, you'll be graduating mid-internship, focus on finding FT". And the Corp Dev ones just said we can't take you if you're not returning to school, and for FT we need IB/M&A exp.
Then the same PE firm had an FT analyst posting recently requiring "min 2-5 year IB exp" and said I was underqualified. (Overqualified for internship, underqualified for analyst, and there's nothing in the middle, lol.)
I'll try the last part, thank you. But my MFin is from a Canadian school, so I mostly get through OCR or career center or networking events.
I am rooting for you. And I think you're doing the right thing. The fact that you have that many senior people vouching for you means you're on the right track. I sincerely wish that it all goes well for you.
Canadian job market truly sucks. And it's not you. Here are three examples that I personally know of:
1. A Canadian person, who went to a Dartmouth / Columbia / Wharton type school in the US for undergrad, worked in IB and top infra UMM / MF funds in NY, got told that he didn't have Canadian experience, when he moved to Canada, and ended up going to a Big 6 bank
2. A MIT Sloan grad that moved to Toronto 18M to two years ago is still recruiting
3. A couple of kids from HK who went to Penn for undergrad have also been recruiting for a year
I dont share the above to discourage you, but to remind you that your story is sad, but you're the not the only one experiencing this
I remember you and I DMd a few months ago. I'm really sorry to see you're still in the rut. Recruiting is brutal in Toronto atm. All the layoffs just mean the market is full of laid off experienced juniors. Idk if I much else to offer you other than what we spoke about last time, but it's not going to get better in the short run I don't think.
Thank you, Mr. Rabbit. Indeed that's what it seems like. However, I greatly appreciate you taking the time. And if you know of anyone hiring including you please let me know.
Mate if the “CEO/Founder/President” of an EB is referring you and you’re not getting in, I’d confirm with them the definition of “referring”
Brother, London recruiting is a different ball game as I am discovering unfortunately (and as I have been seeing in other WSO posts about referrals). Like I mentioned, "join a more structured program as we run lean and let us know down the road," comes in once they realize my relation to the referrer.
I don't know if you read it all, but if I had work authorization or even possibility of TN in the US, I'd already be in. Direct H1B is a no-no despite who refers you.
OP's committment and dedication and industriousness are commendable
OP - can i ask how many follow ups have you generally had to send before you got these senior folks on the line with you?
Thank you.
Mostly one email, but because of their busy schedule call gets scheduled 2-3 months out into the future. Sometimes, a few follow ups (but it was back and forth) as the Sr MD would say I'm swamped right now, follow up again next month.
TBH. 3 TO 4 months is a long time just to take out 15 /20 mins. If someone responds and that's what theyre tellig you, I think they are prob not as inclined to help as u think they might be.
You grew up in a tiny Asian country that’s having a civil war and you’re whining you were able to make it safely out and live in a first world country?
Seriously dude?
Get some perspective man.
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I did not escape, I came to the US on merit-based scholarships after everything was over.
More importantly, I think you should be the one who needs to "get some perspective man". I've seen a lot of your comments and it's obvious you don't have much power in your every day life and get pushed around a lot. Probably got bullied as a shy kid, too.
Hence, messing with already upset people on an anonymous forum from behind a screen makes you feel somewhat superior and provides you with a sense of power, however false it maybe, that you lack in your regular life.
But it's okay bro. You don't have to be a bully to overcome your past. You can grow, heal. You have a wife, spend time with her, get some hobbies that give you a sense of accomplishment.
If you don't want to improve, I am the wrong person to get your power trip. I have seen my dad's childhood home bombed and watched it burn when I was 8. These petty little comments don't even scratch the surface of my nonchalance. I suggest you find your false sense of power elsewhere.
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How am I a bully?
I’m saying you escaped a hellish nightscape to live in a first world country, you’re very lucky. Most people in your position, with your intelligence die in the war or never escape.
So how can you whine about anything? You have a new lease on life and your health, yet you’re crying?
I said get perspective, not sure how that is bullying.
Sounds like what I said irritated you because you felt a pang of honesty in what I said.
Canada hasn't been a first world country in a while though.
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Boo no pitty party here
Learn to spell and improve your attention to detail before you throw out insults.
This is an internet forum you loser haha no wonder no one wants to hire you bro
Uh oh, make way for the search fund intern praying for CIBC.
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