Class of 2008: The Cursed Bunch
My GF's kid brother graduated in '08. Now the timing was absolutely perfect: he was due to graduate in '07, but decided to wait a year to do research. What's one more year of school, when you have your whole life to work? Well shit son, that was the one year when that kind of thinking really fucked you, square in the ass.
He did a master's to mark time, but now can't find squat. We're considering giving him her old car and helping him out with some $$ to make ends meet, but really, he has only dug himself deeper into debt to delay reality.
NOW he is considering law school. This is when I need to step in and slap his ass back to reality. It's one thing to drop O($10k) for a somewhat useful master's, but O($100K) for law school (particularly because I don't see that he can get into a top 14 place) is just financial suicide.
I can understand his predicament: even with his respectable BA, he cannot find any job that pays more than 20K. I can understand the sense of panic. But why bone yourself harder?
Anyone else in this boat? Survival tips?
I've been suggesting to him that he considers work in other countries -- Pacific Rim, MENA, Latam. A couple of my college classmates became trophy wives in Asia and as far as they report, the shops and restaurants are full and they are more worried about inflation than breadlines.
Thoughts on going expat? This kid's got a food science degree. Surely that's got to open some doors?
Food Science....what doors does that open? Seriously asking, no idea what that is.
I have no fucking clue what Food Science is. But the poor little bastard had to suffer through o-chem and bio-chem like the premeds, and that part of me that demands cosmic justice says that there has got to be some use in the job market for a kid like this. Nestle? Con-Agra? ADM?
???
Insinuating that this kid's problem is because he graduated in 2008 is a little nuts. I demand you re-title this thread "Food Science: The Cursed Degree (Duh)"
K, I'm not insinuating anything. I'm flat out saying it.
On the practicality scale, I'd say that Food Science ain't the worst. If he did communications or jazz history, I say he deserves all of his misery. I know Food Science is a little prole for WSO tastes, but it's real stuff.
Back to the point: taking into account the guys I know who came out of targets with UG and grad degrees around that time, I have to say that 2008 is just a shit year. And I mean across the board: business, law, academia, etc. It was a buyer's market for all kinds of degrees, and the quantity and quality of the offers in any field you name was just hands-down worse than any time within recent memory.
And the problem just builds on itself. First, hardly anyone was hiring, barring the few hotshots that will land their Goldmann Saks and Morgan Schmedley gigs. So you got a 6-12 month gap in your resume, and you're looking pretty stale for another weak hiring year in 2009. By the time 2010 rolls around, what are you going to do? Talk about your vast dishwashing or waitering experience?
It's well documented that lifetime income growth is stunted for cohorts who enter the market at a time of recession, because your initial base is that much lower.
So if your parents did the nasty in 1986, you are indeed cursed.
I also don't agree that 2008 was as bad as you made it out to be - and I have some room to talk, I am a 2008 graduate. Thing is, recruiting goes on during the fall of your senior year, which was in our case fall 2007. Though there were some storm clouds gathering, the shit didn't really hit the fan until spring of 2008, after most of the banks had hired a normal number of analysts from the class of 2008. With the exception of the kids with Bear Stearns offers, almost everyone I knew kept their jobs. We got shafted with the 2 worst years of bonuses in recent memory once we got there, but we had jobs.
The guys that really got boned were the class of 2009, who were going through recruiting in the fall of 2008 - no matter how awesome you were, there was just nobody hiring.
Whats his masters in?
Also food science, but his research is on some aspect of carcinogens in food.
Look, I'm not looking for a pity party here -- he's made a ton of mistakes (#1 being: doing a master's when he could have done the Ph.D. directly -- FOR FREE). But I think there's some other guys in his shoes on WSO and some info both ways would be useful.
Uh...tell him to look at the Culinary Institute of America
To be constructive though - please do not let him go to grad school and dig deeper into debt. If he can't find a job, how about inventing one? It's really a lot easier than people think it is. Instead of wallowing in sorrow because he's unemployed, how about some action? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/24-hour-bonus-on-4hww http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/the-4-hour-workweek
[quote=CaptK]To be constructive though - please do not let him go to grad school and dig deeper into debt. If he can't find a job, how about inventing one? It's really a lot easier than people think it is. Instead of wallowing in sorrow because he's unemployed, how about some action? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/24-hour-bonus-on-4hww http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/the-4-hour-workweek[/quote]
We're going to be seeing a lot more of this. My own brother, who is the most risk-averse guy ever, just got shitcanned from a fairly safe govt job, so he is pulling up stakes, going home, and starting his own contracting business.
I'm not even funding my 401K anymore. There is a good 30% chance I won't even have my job within 2 years so I don't want a tax hit if I need to tap my savings for working capital for a small business.
To his credit, he's not really wallowing, but rather thinking in a panicky and self-destructive way. He's getting a false perception of the law market, for instance: yes, lawyers make 160K as starting associates, which stirs a lot of envy, but they got in around the start of the decade. And if you don't graduate from a top-14, it's hard to make that kind of income right off the bat, much less accumulate any kind of wealth with your student loan payments.
This is where I need to smack some sense into his head. If he had listened to me about the Ph.D., he wouldn't be 60K+ in the hole as it is.
-
When all else fails Johnson and Wales?
A food science degree usually is supposed to lead towards the career path of a "flavorist". These are people who create the artificial flavors that enhance the taste of food, and/or sometimes form the basis of an entirely new food (Twinkies e.t.c.). This is a multi-billion dollar industry, dominated by public and private companies such as International Flavors and Fragrances, Firmenich, Givaudan as well as others. If your GF's little bro has an unusual creative streak, he might really enjoy this business, although it takes many years to become outstanding at creating flavors that are indistinguishable from their all-natural counterparts. Hope this helps.
-Bryce
I'm surprised he's having problems finding work. Even beyond flavoring, there's demand for knowledge in the concentrations of: allergies (gluten-free, and others), vegetarian food, vitamins, and medicinal foods (both for hospitals and consumers).
He should find a biochemist and/or a biomedical engineer and start a business.
I'm thinking a career in academia may be suitable: if the person's natural inclination was to get more school as opposed to a spectrum of other choices, maybe that's an indication of where they fit best. Starting off is rough, but there are always teaching and research positions open, and a friend of mine went directly from undergrad to Phd research simply because of who she met. +/- $30K a year isn't a lot to start, but they already aren't making money, so it's something, plus just being in the system gives one enormous leverage and access.
It will also buy time to start planning a career: this has to be done while still in school for the best results. If they spend some time talking with others in their focus, they can get some ideas on how to start making money based on the knowledge the aquire.
The only industry with a bleaker outlook than food science is law. It's the natural gas of professions...maybe it's worth something some day, but there is just too much supply for the time being.
He should look into the gluten-free market. Haven't seen any hard numbers but anecdotal information tells me that it is rapidly expanding.
I know some people that work in both flavors and fragrances (One at IFF, another at Chanel). If you have a "nose" or a "tongue" you can make some serious cash. It has to be good enough to get insured though lol.
Its already been said but 2009 was worse, I should know. The myth of the easy expat job is long over. With a food science degree and no experience they only thing he will get is teaching English in China. But hey I here it pays well considering the cost of living.
marry a businesswoman and be a househusband.
He needs to get a job doing work in his industry with a small firm either directly or through analysis (ER or IB). Find these companies, cold call into them after finding names off linkedin, and offer to work for free for three months. If he has two degrees in an industry and can't impress someone enough to pay him after three months he should jump off the tallest building he can find.
Once you've got work experience in the industry, even at an unknown mom and pop shop, you can move to a brand name company.
I graduated in the spring of 2009 and let me tell you, that was a rough year for graduates as well. I attended a semi-target in the midwest, where not limiting to placement on the street, overall job placement was in the 50%s in 2009-- compared to a historical placement rate of high 90%s.
Thank fucking God I'm fluent in Japanese, pretty much the only thing I had going for me besides majoring in Finance and Accounting. Leveraged these into an IB gig in Tokyo. However, I have met a lot of expats in S&T at various BBs who do not speak a word of Japanese. So it can be done.
There has to be opportunities for an American-educated young professional all around the world. It will take a lot of time identifying these opportunities and convincing the recruiters that you're worth their time. Personally I think you could spin this setback to a hell of a success story. Tell the kid to keep his head up, the job searching process in these times are a numbers game. Sooner or later something will come through.
oh, and forgot to mention my FT offer got rescinded 3 weeks for graduation. imagine sitting through graduation with that on your mind (and still drunk as hell from the night before).
Thanks for all of your suggestions, monkeys.
I want the kid to find a job so he won't have to move in with my GF and me.
For me, that's when the recession turns into a depression.
what is a food science degree? like what is the objective of it and don't say to learn science of food YOU TROLLS
actually he should aim for food flavoring/ preservative companies even fast food chains at the R&D lvl
My 2cents,
I have been a expat for the past 2 years on and off, living the middle east for a brief gig in Oil and Gas and now in London for an IB job.I would recommend it if you can handle it. Meaning if you go by yourself you have to the type of individual that can go out and meet people to make your stay in another country more comfortable.
On amenities, everywhere in the world from what I have seen, is the more or less the same in terms of what you can get to eat, health care, banking, housing et.. that you would need personally to need to make your stay in the country of choice enjoyable.
Why do some science degrees get so much shit thrown at? At least in LatAm, business degrees are the ones seen negatively: easy classes, predominantly composed of the mediocre-rich types. It is also sometimes seen as a girly degree (definitely more women than men study it).
Those who are seriously pursuing careers in business (mgmt. consulting/banking/entrepeneurship, etc.) study engineering.
What is this doing on WSO? Does he want to work at an IB or a hedge fund? If not, why is this here?
I happen to have some food scientists in my family- this is a hard degree to get, and the pay is generally quite good. This isn't about cooking, its hardcore chemistry with some chemical engineering to produce food on a mass scale, and also to create flavors, fragrances and similar such additives to make that food. Its a great degree to have- if you want to work for a flavor/fragrance house. If you don't... WTF did you bust your ass on such a hard degree for? You could possibly use that degree to get a low level programming job somewhere, but that is going to be a stretch. Has he submitted his resume to Loreal, IFF, Sensient, Chemtura, etc? I also hope he likes suburban/rural new jersey, because aside from a few smaller offices in NYC, that's where these guys are.
As for graduating in 2008, not all of us win the grad year lotto. I certainly didn't, I graduated in 2002, right in the middle of the .com bust and 9/11 had scared the shit out of the street and there was almost no hiring at all at an entry level. I took the only offer I had, where I had interned for the previous 3 years, and they lowballed the crap out of me because they could- I started out making under 40k, when two years prior, I probably would have started in the 60's or 70's. I stuck it out for over a year there, I only got three looks on my resume during that entire time, but luckily landed a job on that third interview w a trading firm.
I think this all worked out better for me- I was like a caged animal by that point. They paid me a decent salary, and I woke up every day thankful, happy, "ready to bite the ass off of a bear," and worked my ass off. Setbacks and adverse conditions motivate me to do better. At my last job I became complacent and ended up getting laid off recently. This was good in retrospect- I was getting soft and starting to lean on my previous success. I landed a job a few weeks ago, secured a 30k raise on base, 10x the bonus potential, and that fire is back.
It's 2011, the only thing preventing him from starting his career is himself. I have a feeling he isn't sitting home every day, reading every book he can about his industry to learn, and reading textbooks to increase his knowledge and skills. He needs to get to it, and start networking.
To clarify: I am trying to get him into finance or barring that, consulting. I think he'll have better chances as an industry analyst in his specialty area than some industry job.
ivote -- I went to a school that was big in AG, and I think you're spot on when you say he should target the likes of: Con-Agra, Nestle, ADM, General Mills, USDA (any other gov org), Kraft, Cargill, maybe even Monsanto, etc. Since there may not be many job postings for the type of position he's looking for, he may have to work hard to call/e-mail a contact within the company. I agree that a PhD would be the most ideal route, as I'm sure that research is a huge component of his industry.
I graduated in '08 and I can definitely attest to it being an awful time to graduate unless you were at a top target. Bear Stearns was the only bank doing on-campus interviews at my school and we all know how that went. A lot of analysts got canned in late Fall '08 if I remember correctly.
The problem with graduating at a bad time is that most good entry-level jobs are only accessible when you are still in college and getting into a top b-school usually involves having worked at one of these jobs. I've been doing BO work for the last two and a half years and my chances at a top B-school are pretty slim right now, especially if I spend the next few years doing the same type of work. I'm applying to good Finance MSc. over in Europe right now and if that doesn't work, I'm quitting to become a part-time substitute teacher and futures trader, because that's a much better story.
I actually work for one of the largest food manufacturers in the world. Food Science degrees are very respectable in the food industry, but typically the company I work for only recruits from Purdue, Illinois, or Penn State, as they have highly regarded programs. If your kid brother doesn't live in Midwest than he should consider isolating his search there. Companies like Nestle, Con Agra, Sara Lee, Kraft all hire food scientists to develop product formulations. For those of you who don't know, It's a highly scientific degree with a heavy emphasis on chemistry. If that doesn't find him something tell him to try and leverage his lab experience and look for something like a lab technician working for a chemical company or something in quality assurance. Quality assurance typically requires a science background and the pay is decent.
So -- what do you do at Kraft?
what will the job market be for the class of 2014?
in finance obviously, i don't even know what 'food science' is.
The class of 2008 isn't the only cursed one. So is the class of 2009 and the class of 2010. I'd know because I got a BS in 2009 and an MS in 2010 and still can't find anything.
How about medicine?
perhaps something with foodstocks / biofuels?
Consider this for bad luck...
Last summer was a markets intern at a BB bank. One of the guys in my intern class had the misfortune of interning with Lehman in summer '07 and landed a grad job (good going)... 2008 september comes around and, o bugger, he's out of a job.
So he looks around and admirably managers to get himself a job with a HF (good going).... but then, sure enough, in '09 the HF collapses in the wake of the fallout from Lehman.
So comes summer '10 he interns with the bank (best opportunity going at the time) , does a decent job... but due to ongoing uncertainty over the way markets are going/trading revenues his desk decide not to hire any grads.
Talk about bad luck.... really feel for the guy, just wrong place at the wrong time.
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