My life in Frankfurt
I have been in Frankfurt for 5 years after graduating in London (B.Sc.) and in Germany (M.Sc.).
There are a lot of threads about IB in Frankfurt and many members already gave helpful insights and comments.
I just want to reconfirm:
1) Hours: I can confirm that Germans work longer in Frankfurt. But does it mean "harder"? Not necesserily. Germans tend to work by becoming a bit political. They think that being "one nighter" or "two nighters" will leave a very good impression to their MD.
Working longer has just evolved over time.
2) Career path: This is the most ridiculous thing. You just study Business Administration (German: BWL). In Germany, you would never have any chance to break into IB with other subjects.
Learning by doing is not appreciated at all. They expect you to master all necessary skills during internships and by studying Business before you enter the market.
Therefore, all personalities are same and boring at the same time.
3) Language: Everybody can speak English, but German is still the standard language even during work. You work with them, you hang out with them, but you will feel a kind of distance from them (from Germans in general).
4) German cities: Frankfurt or Bavaria are ok. But very small and not comparable to London, NY or Paris. People are nice in general, but you feel kind of distance and coldness. While they are friendly to you, they also put a wall at the same time.
I visited Cologne and Duesseldorf. These areas are the best areas because people are more open. In these areas, people are more relaxed.
But there are no IB jobs there.
5) Frankfurt: Many claim that Frankfurt has more to offer incl. restaurants, bars, winery in near areas. But as you work easily longer than 80 hours, you have no opportunity to visit other places every weekend.
6) Career: No HF jobs. Everybody dreams of landing in a PE. They hope to get into a PE and to get rich with carry. But only few can break into a PE.
7) Savings: It is true that you can save more money in Frankfurt than in London or NY, but you don´t get rich by savings.
If you leave London or NY, you also lose a lot of opportunity costs.
And very few bankers in Frankfurt can break 1 Mil. € in their entire career. Many of them leave the finance to go to German industry due to WLB.
You know.. Even if you can save a lot, 1 Mil. € is not easy to realize for most of them (They could be happy to afford a moderate house with a garden in a suburb area).
My take: If you break into IB or PE, you enter the market with a very optimistic view about your future. Having said that, you expect to become a MD, to land in a PE or HF, to boost your career in the future, and to get rich with carry and bonus.
You will not become rich by savings.
From my point of view, you can have a typical German life in Frankfurt, but you will miss bigger opportunities and fun you can have in London and NY.
I have to say that I missed London a lot while I was in Frankfurt. I am happy to come back to London next year!
Thank you for sharing
Thanks for reading.
Thank you for thanking him
How are the sauna clubs?
I have never been there. Don´t ask German bankers, because everything what is so famous for foreigners like you is actually something Germans do not care about.
If you ask them about sauna clubs, they think you are a perverse guy.
Hahaha noted.
Hi, I will be graduating from high school this year. I think that in the future I would like to work at IB and then in Private Equity. I am considering which European university to choose (I will definitely apply to RSM and HSG), as well as which city to choose in the future - London (I think it would be more difficult) or Frankfurt. What university would you choose if you were me and what city? Do you think that within 10-20 years Frankfurt will catch up with London? I will add that I have EU citizenship, I am learning German (currently B2) and my parents are not super rich, so education in the UK/US is not possible.
Hi. There is no official "rule" about target universities in Germany.
However, I highly recommend:
1. Frankfurt Goethe University
2. WHU
3. TU Munich
4. Uni Mannheim
5. HSG (St. Gallen).
Frankfurt will never catch up with London. Here is why:
1. Language barrier: Don´t underestimate the infrastructure and environmental condition given to bankers. After Brexit, banks tried to relocate their bankers to Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, but it failed.
It also explains about lifestyle. Frankfurt does have museums, bars, restaurants etc., but London has more.. Frankfurt only has Städl Museum. London has National Gallery, Saatchi Gallery etc.
Night Outs in London are much more fun and you have way more options than in Frankfurt.
2. The German banking system is outdated. Frankfurt is just famous for classic banking. If we talk about digital banking like WISE, Klarna, N24 etc., Berlin is the way to go.
Since 2008/2009, all trading activities are located in Amsterdam and Paris.
So, the overall banking activities have been reduced since 2008.
3. Frankfurt builds up Middle Office capacity like Risk and Compliance, but Front Office get bigger and bigger in London.
4. Check the report line. BBs in Frankfurt named their MDs, but many of them are located in London.
I still stick to my statement that London offers far more and more lucrative opportunities even your salary is lower and life is more expensive in London.
You spoke highly about cologne as a city but forgot the university of cologne being one of the best universities for Business and Finance in germany haha
Thank you for sharing all of this information,I had a few questions if you don't mind answering:
1) What are the salaries for BO/MO jobs? Are they relatively chill? 40h/week or is it close to 60
2)Have you worked with or seen any asians/indians working in Germany? I think there are diversity programmes but targetted towards women, Is there anything like london for men?
3) How about other careers, I've heard it's relatively easy to get a job in BIG 4 audit/consulting, is this true? And is the pay around 50-55k after masters?
4) I've heard student jobs are quite common in Germany, Is it easy to land them? Do they pay well?
5) What's the cost of living in Frankfurt like? I think taxes are pretty high? Close to 45%? How much do you get gross and net and how much would it cost to live an upper middle class life?
6) Since you completed your bachelors degree from the UK, Did that ever come up in interviews or did you feel it worked against you?
7) I've heard your abitur is considered very important there? My grades in high school were poor, Could I retake O- Level and convert those instead? Also did you have to convert your high school grades, could you talk about that process? Alternatively can a high GMAT make up for them? I've heard the average at Mannheim masters was 670 so will 720 be a good score to get in?
If you can answer any of these questions, I'd really appreciate it, thank you for your time.
Hi. To your questions:
1) For Back/Middle Office, you can earn 62k EUR (per year) for 39h per week. Based on your experience after years, you can reach up to 90k EUR.
But more than 90k EUR will be tough..
2) I saw some Asians, but these Asians were born in Germany and grown up in Germany. Therefore, they also have typical German mindset. I could not detect any Asian mentalities.
As I said, the German banking system (incl. IBD) is very common. You will face same personalities.
In my team, I had no colleagues from India.
3) My first intern was TAS at BIG4. At that time, it was "easy" to get an internship there. But I do not know how it is now.
Due to current inflationary environment, 50K ~ 55K seems to be realistic.
I can recommend TAS at BIG4 if you want to strive for a IBD career later on.
4) Student jobs? You mean "Werkstudenttätigkeit"? Banks should have these student jobs, but at IBD, I could not see any student jobs.
If you are asking generally, there are a lot of industrial firms (not banking), which currently search for students working on part-time base.
5) The life is def. cheaper in Frankfurt. If you are single, a two-room apartment in Westend should be more than enough. The rent could be 1.200 EUR ~ 1.300 EUR incl. gas, electricity, internet.
For an upper middle class life... Good question... My life was very simple (I had no car, I had no fancy apartment etc.).
But it is difficult to answer your question, because an upper middle class life is very hard to achieve even in Germany if you target to settle your life in Germany (I assume you want to buy a real estate.. Then, you have to save a lot. So, you will not be able to enjoy an upper middle class life in the next 10 years).
If you assume you do not want to save, then your full salary after taxes should be enough to enjoy an upper middle class life.
You pay roughly 45% taxes.
The salary is dependent on where you work. JPM and GS pay way more than any other firms for 1st year analyst.
Base + Bonus is nearly 95K EUR for 1st year analyst, but it could be lower if the market is bad.
6) It is def. hard to break into your career in Germany directly after your graduation in London, but I did my master in Germany. So, it was easier for me. I could also speak German as I learnt German since high school.
Germans are really crazy into technical questions. So, my interview was really based on technical questions based on valuations + overall market situation/analysis.
Germans are very technically driven and somehow pragmatic.
It did not work directly against me, but I always get the feeling that Germans are structurally programmed in their brain during the work and behaved so.
7) I had 750 GMAT. I don´t know if the score deadline you mentioned is still valid. You can check it on their website of the university of Mannheim.
Abitur can be important because there are some PEs, which dig into your Abitur record.
Abitur is considered as more important for consulting firms than IBD.
If you have 2.3 Abitur, it should be no blocking point as long as you have a good bachelor and relevant internships. But once again: For some firms, Abitur could be also an important track record.
WOW, I have been searching online for 1 year or so and especially of wiwi-treff using google translate and yet I didn't find this much information in such a concise way, I honestly cannot thank you enough.
Could you elaborate on german mindset and trying to fit in, I've already started learning german and will speak it at b1 level before coming to Germany, Also are how are accountants seen in Germany, from what I understand in London after getting an accounting charter and becoming a qualified accountant many times you can move to IBD as an associate, Is it similar in Germany?
When I land in Germany I will already have passed all the ACCA exams, have you heard of the ACCA, I don't think it's too popular in Germany but Afaik ACCA charters do have signing capabilities in Germany so it shouldn't be too bad if I can explain it to interviewers, I will have a first class in my bachelor's degree, hoping that's good to offset the abitur, By the way did you have to convert your high school grades to abitur?
THANK YOU once again for all your help, I appreciate it more than you know
How much are associates and VPs making in Frankfurt for IB?
At what university, if I might ask? Just interested
great content and comments, thanks
Thanks for your comment. I am glad that you enjoyed it.
so do you care to divulge what you actually do and your career earnings throughout the past 5yrs?
I will not go deep dive as FFM is very small.
Based on my details, some bankers from FFM (if they are active here) may know who I am.
Thanks for sharing, great information here. I also worked for a few years in Frankfurt (not IB) before moving to London.
One thing that struck me was how high the taxes are in Germany (easily 45% effective tax rate) and the non-existence of private pension. Yes general living is way cheaper than in London, but in London my netto is considerably higher, and I'm also getting nearly £1.5k a month into private pension. My private pension contribution is already higher than what I could save monthly while living in Frankfurt with the lower living expenses!
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Hmmmm ...
As someone who worked in Frankfurt IBD and London PE, I have a hard time relating to some of these points.
It's true, the peak London salaries are definitely higher than in Frankfurt. But the affordable cost of living plus decent salary levels leaves the average IBD analyst with >100k savings after three years with relative ease. You can easily find and finance a decent 2BR apartment in a good district with 60k equity.
After you cross a 110k gross in Germanyg (even factoring in higher living expenses post Covid), you are essentially in the very top bucket of earners and have a very, very decent standard of living (2BR, car, etc.).
Tax rates (and social contributions) are high, but once you cross a certain level (>100k) UK rates are quite comparable AND you lose your personal allowance in the UK (stepwise from 100-200k) which makes a big different. Furthermore you're taxed on pension contributions as well (after 200k I believe).
The depressing truth for any European (including the UK for this matter) is that the economic prospects for London and central Europe don't look particularly great. I only expect the gap to the US (salaries and productivity) to further widen ... but that's another topic for discussion.
How can you afford a porsche with 120k salary
I get what you mean.
But 2BR apartments in decent areas with 60k equity seem to be a tough target nowadays as the rent has surged massively since 2023.
Basically, you may find some, but there is nothing from your equity left. No savings at all at the end.
Good luck to find some apartments in Westend, Nordend, Innenstadt, or even in Altstadt if you only have 60k equity.
110k is a top salary in Germany, but not for IBD.
110k can be achieved with your analyst level if you land a job at BB.
Even taxes are high in GB at the end, you have more options to explore for your career. HF is completely missing in Frankfurt.
I know some who landed at Elliott Management and MAN in London.
Such organisations do not exist in Frankfurt.
Why own a Porsche? You give me Miata vibes anyways
As a German myself I’ve always wondered why firms in Germany emphasise so heavily on technical skills during interviews. Some questions are incredibly tough for internship positions in comparison to the SA interviews in other financial hubs. Also the amount of internships needed to break into IB seems to be way higher than in London. You often see students doing an audit, TAS, and small cap internship just to even get looks from mid cap banks. For the very best banks you even need 1-2 internships more at other strong banks, resulting in a total of 4-7 internships. Studying a STEM major myself this seems to be the main reason why it is so much harder to break into IB for non-business majors. Banks expect at least 2-3 prior internships and a high level of technical skills, which is tough to obtain when studying a STEM major. Still the banks I interviewed with were very positive regarding my STEM background, still as mentioned the needed prior experience and technical skills are still a must. Ultimately the main point for me why I want to pursue in London is the lack of diversity in the industry. It’s boring to work only besides business graduates from effectively the same 7-10 schools.
Thanks for your input. Could not have said better.
Thank you for your view!
Very interesting to see how German Banking is looked upon from foreigners working in Germany.
I have two questions regarding PE recruitment though, maybe you could help out?
Would you say it’s tougher to recruit for PE in Germany or in London? And is it possible to transfer offices in PE from London to Frankfurt?at the Associate or Senior Associate level? I don’t know if I want to stay in the UK longterm as I’ve never lived there.
One thing I would add regarding your second point is that stem degrees usually are fine as well
Yes, but if you study STEM you have a longer period where you are writing exams. Therefore it’s much tougher to do internships, especially in Investment Banking as you need to do a 3 month internship and basically miss out on all lectures and have to submit some work during the time in IB. You effectively manage to write only a fraction of exams. Business majors often have periods of 2 months or so to do an internship and tbh a studying business major is easier than studying STEM.
Still if you manage to do both you are set up greatly, because banks will honour the effort, analytical skills, and the increased diversity you bring.
I was told that STEM was the way to go if you wanted to go to trading.
Frankfurt used to have many trading teams and floors by all banks pre 2008, but due to strict regulations (German law), it was not possible to keep them, so they had to move to Paris and Amsterdam.
Generally, it is all about M&A and Sales in Germany.
Your feedback is appreciated. That being said: If you don't like it, then please get the fuck out of my country. Thank you in advance.
Thanks. But you do not do your country a favor by writing such replies. I would be appreciated if you could relax and do not get offended. Otherwise, people may think that they would have to deal with people like you, who are rude and stubborn.
Once again, I cannot stress this enough: If you don't like it, then fuck off. As you may know, we are (at least nominally) a sovereign nation with an (at least hypothetically) distinct national identity, which rightly rubs foreigners the wrong way - this is what happens if you have diversity of nations (I was told you people love diversity so very very much). In any case I have no interest in welcoming you to my country. If you'd knew me in real life, which I'd take great care to avoid, being that I deal with Burgers and Bongs enough already on a day-to-day basis, you would find me quite approchable, and I admit I might be an oddity among my more stiff national colleagues. However, and I do believe you will understand this, my nation comes before any "vibes" I have with somebody, so, once again, kindly either integrate or exfilate.
Literally wtf
What about Asset Management, is there much of a scene there (or elsewhere in Germany)? Is fluent German compulsory for most roles?
Much more difficult than IBD.
The size is way smaller than IBD or PE.
Thank you so much for sharing, I was wondering if you could expand on office settings, it seems that you work quite a lot, does the office support you when you are working late like in NYC; paying for your cabs home, meal allowance, is this something that happens in Frankfurt?
Further, is it only IB working long hours or is it the office generally filled at 8pm?
Hope I am not too late with my questions. thanks in advance
Happy to jump on the question. Similar benefits like elsewhere, i.e. usually good dinner budget (tho varies between shops), cabs home, all meals paid on weekends etc
One last question, as I am moving to Frankfurt here in August, I was wondering if you could recommend some good neighborhoods? I hear Westend is nice and it is close to the office, which seems convenient. But other than that I do not really have a good idea of the areas in FFM.
Can highly recommend the Nordend (currently live there myself). It's located next to Westend so still pretty close to the office (c.15-25min walk). Overall there is much more going on than in the Westend with lots of bars/cafe's/restaurant. The crowd is pretty young with a nice blend of young professionals/young families and quite international.
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