All,
Over the past two months, I have seen several threads asking for advice on applying to Princeton Bendheim's MFin program, what the school is looking for, and many other questions. People on the forums have pointed to me because I go to school there, and they think I have some clue as to how the admissions process works. I have done my best to answer their questions with what little additional insight that being on campus gives me.
Lately, people have asked me to do a more complete write-up. I figured that since it is August and people are starting to think about grad school applications, this may be a good time for a post on general advice for applying to Princeton's MFin program, especially since there seems to be a dearth of information on applying to competitive MFin/MFE programs in general.
All of the opinions expressed in here are my own and not the school's and probably not also the majority of students'. I don’t want this to turn into some sort of fiasco, so it’s important to remember that this is just a post by IlliniProgrammer talking about what he thinks could be helpful for getting into the program. This could be as disconnected from reality as IP’s view that everyone needs to be thrifty. (I honestly don’t think either is disconnected from reality, which is why the analogy works.)
ABOUT THE PROCESS
Every year, somewhere between 700 and 1000 smart and successful people submit applications to the Bendheim Center. The admissions process, which involves Bendheim Center faculty members, staff and the Graduate School, has to get this number down to 30-50 admits. The size of each class varies from year to year but is generally smaller than other programs, which is intentional. I’ve heard from the staff that the admissions committee bases the class size on a variety of factors, including the job outlook for prospective students, classroom space, and room in the graduate dorms.
Roughly the top 100-150 applicants will be extended an offer to interview with Princeton. You'll typically get asked questions about your academic accomplishments, career and research interests and what you did at your prior job or internships. There are rarely technical questions although there is always an opportunity to showcase your ability to explain a complicated technical issue in simple terms. While everyone is offered the opportunity to conduct their interview in-person on-campus, many students opt to skype in. In any event, the interview is very important. According to the staff, most people who are admitted to the program have a very strong interview and it can be a deciding factor in the admissions process (all other qualifications and scores being equal). However, not everyone who gives a great interview is accepted.
According to the staff, the admissions committee is made up of the program director, a number of Bendheim faculty members, the corporate relations director, and Deans of the Graduate School. Princeton asks for a personal statement and three letters of reference. They also ask for GRE or gmat scores and a resume. An optional additional essay is available, but most admitted students I have spoken with did not submit one (although some did.)
HOW TO MAKE A STRONG APPLICATION
Princeton's Master in Finance program has a fairly competitive application process. This isn't a top four Econ PhD where you have 500 applicants and 4 admits, but they do have to whittle 800 very accomplished applicants who are largely from Wall Street or Wall Street-bound- down to 30-50 admits. So by one measure, this makes the process more competitive than the most selective business schools.
My educated guess is that the admissions process starts like one for an MFE program, that there may be a bit of a research program component to it, and that it ends like the admission process for an MBA program or a top tier undergrad.
For some background, I'd like to believe that Princeton thinks of its MFin graduates as being financial engineers and strategists who can also go head to head with MBA business schools">M7 MBAs (at least within finance) on the soft skills- and for the most part, I believe that is the case for the students I've seen on campus. We are the closest thing Princeton has to an MBA program, and Wall Street wants people who can understand and solve complex quantitative problems, communicate effectively in plain English, and help lead and manage the bank. I think we have the right combination of quantitative ability and personal skills to help lead in finance- and the program may be trying to look for that in its admits. So I have a feeling the admissions process is going to move from an MFE-like filtering process at the beginning to a more MBA-like or competitive undergrad-like admissions approach at the end.
There are a lot of great programs out there that banks should look at for hiring Associates and Quants; I'm just glad we're on that list and that we're a little less expensive than some of the MBA alternatives.
THE PERSONAL STATEMENT & RESUME
Princeton asks for a 1000 word essay as part of the admissions process. It's not an MBA essay. We don't give you a theme, and there's not a lot of advice and commentary out there on what to write. The MBA and grad school admissions consultants will tell you that to get into a top MFE program, you need a top GRE or gmat score and good math grades, but that only helps the program whittle things down to probably the top ~20%-50% of applicants. So getting down to the top 5% requires more work.
If you can, try to find a theme to start the essay with and to tie back into every once in a while. If your life is all about water or all about changes or ideas and you can keep going back to that theme in an interesting way that isn't corny, this could be a good way to structure your essay. It would show you're a great writer as well as a great financial engineer. Your goal is to get- and keep- the reader's attention while also selling them on how interesting you are as an applicant. To that end- I suggest three goals for any good application:
1.) Get them interested in your career
Many students admitted to Bendheim have some sort of front-office experience- either full-time or as an intern. Either way, Princeton generally gets a 90-100% placement rate every year. Having our placement rate drop to 75% would be nearly as big a disaster as having our main building burn to the ground overnight. Since Princeton only gets 30-40 students per year, even one student missing an offer changes our placement rate 2-3%, and I'm sure the admissions committee spends a lot of time making sure that the final list of admits can all land jobs.
We take a lot of bright people without work experience. Many of them probably could have landed a Front-Office offer at a bank, or a Finance/Econ PhD admit at a top ten school, without our help.
Therefore, part of your application needs to convince Princeton that you are already capable of landing a good job at a bank, hedge fund, PE firm, or prop shop, and that a full-time admission to the program would still benefit your career further. Talk about your career goals, be realistic about how your current background would play into a potential job upon graduation, and basically set a tone that you WANT Princeton and would really LIKE Princeton, but you do not NEED Princeton.
2.) Get them interested in your academics and research
Every year or two, Princeton MFin sends a few students on to get PhDs, and the graduate school that we live in happens to largely be research-oriented. We don't have a Medical School, Law School, or Business School. We only have a few Master's programs, and many of them are more about preparing people for academia than industry. To top it all off, you will be living with mostly PhDs and grabbing beer with them in the graduate dorms. We are a research-oriented campus and these essays are being read by research-oriented professors. Many MFin students complete a research project their second year, and some eventually wind up getting published in a significant (not necessarily Big Three) finance journal.
So, if you have worked on published research, or you have some research idea that someone with a Finance PhD agrees is interesting, it can't hurt to mention that in your essay. It's also important to mention anything challenging you've done academically, particularly if it involves math, statistics, or finance.
Please note that research isn't required. I had some research ideas but no formal research experience, and it's certainly less helpful than a front office internship or full-time experience. But I think it helps to mention something academically interesting in your personal statement.
Most full-time students came in with at least something close to the traditional engineering math sequence. That typically means Calc I-III (Multivariable), Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, and Probability. Some came in with much more; a few came in with a little less. This is a fairly quantitative program at its foundation- with core courses that build on linear algebra and calculus-based probability, so it's difficult to see us admitting someone who did the bare minimum math requirements for a typical undergrad finance or liberal arts degree.
3.) Get them interested in you as a person
The one common trait among Princeton MFin students is that they all have something really interesting about them that is completely unrelated to finance. One of our students worked for NASA and to my understanding was on track to be part of their astronaut program before the space shuttle was cancelled. Another runs marathons and recently came in 1st in a 10k hosted by Princeton Theological Seminary. Another runs his own successful startup (in addition to working as a financial engineer). Another is an amazing soccer player.
I'm not sure hang gliding helped me get in, but it certainly didn't hurt. (It's also a lot easier to be at the top of the stack in a certain interesting area that few people do than it is to be an excellent marathon runner.) And I was sure to mention that in my essay and my resume. If you're not essentially being hired by the university to do research (such as with a funded PhD program), Princeton wants you contributing to campus in some other way.
Therefore, the goal here is to show that you're the very best applicant in a certain area related to finance (such as quant development), as well as the best applicant at (or near the top of the stack in) two or three other completely orthogonal areas to finance. Best runner? Best soccer player? Best wingsuit skydiver? Best cave diver?
This is sort of what I'm talking about with the later filtering looking more like undergraduate admissions or an MBA program. Princeton usually winds up with many more exceptionally qualified candidates than it has spots to fill, but a campus filled with people who can only talk about work and academics- and don't have interesting stories to tell and interesting things to get friends involved in- is going to be boring. So if you can talk about going two hours into an underwater cave in Florida on a rebreather, and send students on campus off to your tech diving instructor for a PADI Tec 50 course, you're really adding something to campus and ultimately making Princeton a more interesting place to attend grad school.
To be clear, this shouldn't be the core of your essay and your application- the core should be about academics, career, and perhaps research. You should probably devote most of your personal statement to those parts. But it's good to work this in somewhere. Like the MBA programs, we want interesting people on our campus and in our program. And it's possible that this is what helps you make the final cut.
IF YOU ARE APPLYING NEXT YEAR (FOR A 2015 ADMISSION), YOU ARE PROBABLY AT A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE
You should always be looking for opportunities to make yourself a more interesting person and expand your horizons- and it's best for this stuff to happen naturally- but the issue is even more pressing if you're thinking of applying to grad school soon. So if you're not applying to an MBA or MFin until next year, the stuff you do now is going to be more natural and more genuine- and look that way in the admissions process- than doing something four months before you submit applications.
Try to be creative- your goal is to have something interesting and attention-getting that no other applicant has. Certainly for an MBA program and perhaps for an MFin program, it is going to be tough to be the best soccer player or (American) football player in the applicant pool. But we need people who can play water polo (actually we have a lot of intramural sports). We need people who are into some of the crazier sports out there. We need people who've volunteered in interesting places. If you've already worked on Wall Street, all of this makes it harder to cut you in the final rounds. It is probably more difficult to reject someone who's volunteered as a tour guide at the Chicago Art Institute than someone who has worked at a volunteer mentoring/tutoring organization largely populated by MBA-bound individuals. Both are very successful, accomplished people- one has something which is a little more interesting than the other.
So the social and the personal dividends- and the stories you collect- should be enough to make you want to seek out opportunities to be more interesting- but if that hasn't been enough, it might be enough if I told you it could help with B-school or MFE admissions.
As mentioned above, your career is more core to your application than any interesting hobbies you may have. If you have at least 18 months before it’s time to apply, that may also be enough time to try and land a better job. Princeton is probably going to evaluate people as potential admits based on their work experience if they are more than a year or two out of school. Obviously the program is going to try to find smart, hard-working people wherever it can, but certain jobs probably make you easier to find than others.
IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED, TRY, TRY, AGAIN
I didn't get into Princeton Bendheim on my first try.
My first time, I was a fairly competitive candidate. I worked in Credit Analytics at a major bank, which wasn't indisputably front-office but certainly wasn't back-office. I rode motorcycles and occasionally raced them on the track at the time- I also did some waterskiing. I got an on-campus interview from them, but not an admission. I was accepted several other places, but at about the same time, I got an internal transfer offer to Options Sales and Trading, which I took.
Getting rejected felt bad. It was cold comfort to know I was in the company of the 95% of the other students who applied and it reinforced my view that after a point, the final cut gets pretty random. But it did make me determined to prove that the rejection didn't matter, and that (at least for the next 21 months) staying in industry was better for me than getting an MFin there.
Two years later, I applied again. I enjoyed where I was working, but wanted a change of pace and felt school was the best way to do it. My circumstances had materially improved this time- I was clearly in a Front Office group, I was a USHPA rated hang glider pilot, which I practically had stamped all over my application, and my sense was that it was a fairly narrow miss last time.
I really don't know what happened, but reapplying with a materially stronger application two years later earned me a fresh, second look, and it also could have validated the arguments of the people who were fighting for me the first time (somebody probably had to have supported me in order for me to get an interview). Princeton has a relatively small final round- about 100 students, and I think there's a strong possibility people will remember you if you came close before and reapply within a few years. (This may also be true with MBA programs and MFE programs)
So, if you get rejected, don't feel bad. It's probably more random than you think. And if it was a reasonably close decision (you'll know this if you got an interview), and you come back a year or two later with a materially stronger application, you actually have some of the best chances out of anyone (except the Polytechnique stochastic calculus ninja) at an admission. You already have a few people there rooting for you, you've now provided validation to their original argument, and this is the admissions committee's chance to make the right decision this time.
FINAL THOUGHTS
There are a lot of great MFE/MFin programs out there. NYU (which I believe had a placement at DE Shaw this summer- rare for people with finance backgrounds), CMU, Cornell, Stanford, Columbia, Berkeley, and Princeton are all on that list. If you're good at math, enjoy finance, and aren't sure about an MBA business schools">M7 MBA, I'd encourage you to apply here or to some of the other MFE programs mentioned. There are also likely several other schools that I left out which deserve to be on that list.
The admissions process at any top MFE program is going to be a bit random at the very end, and if you're a reasonably successful person, you shouldn't take acceptance or rejection as some sort of validation or lack thereof. (If it makes you mildly annoyed and gives you something to prove, more power to you.) CMU may reject you and Princeton may admit you, or it may be the other way around. Instances like these seem to show it really is a dice roll and that it's really best for hiring managers to take which school you're from with a bit of a grain of salt.
The students you'll meet here are very smart, very hard-working, and somehow pretty humble despite that. They also know how to have a good time when they aren't running proofs on covariance matrices, solving an interest rate model or building a multithreaded pricing application. The graduate dorms literally look like a castle, have a bar in the basement, and we have an awesome Halloween party. So if you are great at math, enjoy amazing parties, but you also enjoy getting something fundamentally academic out of $80K (not $120K) worth of graduate tuition, Princeton might be a better place for you than a top tier MBA. I think the ideal student for a program like Princeton is the Wall Street trader, quant, researcher- or some other worker with a fairly technical job- who is on the fence about an MBA or MFE program- or even a Finance PhD program, but knows he wants to stay in finance. We're basically the quants and strategists with the polish, leadership, and occasionally connections of the MBA business schools">M7 MBA- just with $40K less debt.
My observations and advice above only capture a small, incomplete, and biased snapshot of the information that professors and other students hold. Moreover, most people associated with the program and its admissions process can figure out exactly who an MFin student with the username "IlliniProgrammer" is and just how clueless he is about what really goes on. So a lot of what I've written above is a mildly educated guess that's only a little better than what the average applicant can surmise. Still, it fills in a few gaps in the FAQ and gives you a place to start thinking about your personal statement.
So please take this with a grain of salt. Obviously if anything I've said conflicts with what you hear from our staff, our professors, or what other MFin students are pretty sure of, or certainly anything you see on our website (below), I'd defer to that.
http://www.princeton.edu/bcf/graduate/faq/
Thanks and good luck if you decide to apply!
If I could give you 10 SB's I would for this
Good post. Just curious, how is UChicago's program when compared to the others on your list? Do you think recs are actually important or just something to check the box? Does Princeton and/or other programs like it limit you to purely quant roles afterward, or if not what percentage go into roles that aren't super-quant and what kind of benefit does the program provide then?
No. We have guys who go into PE, Consulting, IBD, Credit Research, and Equity Research roles, although trading and hedge funds are more the norm. I wound up working in a portfolio strategy role this summer.
If you've done IBD and want PE, you can do it through this program- it's been done before. I'm not going to say it's a sure thing since there aren't as many data points as there are at, say, HBS or Wharton.
Curious. Isn't getting a Princeton MSF and going into a non-quant-heavy (i.e., non-quant-focused-HF role) like bringing a Kalashnikov to a snow ball fight? What could you possibly use that degree for in those fields? It just strikes me as akin to getting a Masters in Engineering for a non-quant-heavy Wall Street job.
I am asking this for a friend. She has an MSF from one of the better schools (WUSTL/Nova/Vandy). She is interested in more quantitative work. Would the MSF disqualify her from applying to the Princeton MFinn?
I suspect it could hurt more than it helps (everything being equal between undergrad and grad school), although we do have students with prior master's degrees in stats and econ.
Bendheim does have students as old as 35 right now. A few are married with children. The greater the distance between your friend and the MSF, the less the MSF will be a factor.
We always need more women in MFE programs, and I think the program puts a little more effort into having a balanced class than some of the other programs out there. I'm not sure being a woman will help her, but it certainly won't hurt.
Make sure that your friend has done something on the order of the engineering math sequence. We are talking Calc I-III (Multivariable), Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, and Calculus-based probability. Probability and Linear algebra are probably the most important items on that list. Having taken a basic imperative programming class (IE: Java, Python, or C++) would also be helpful.
If she doesn't have them, I'm not sure you can take these at a community college, but I think most reasonable schools would be satisfied with B+'s or better at a Baruch, UIC, or UCLA, or some other primary state university for a city. Enrollment as a non-degree part-time student is often pretty straightforward at these schools. Just make sure you call whichever program you are ultimately applying to and ask ahead of time. I'm only giving you my hunch with Princeton, and I suspect MIT for instance could be a little more picky than we would be.
an enjoyable read. nice perspective on a great program
Great post man. Thanks.
thanks IP this is a great post, will homepage today at ~1pm
Hey IP,
A little off topic, but what are your views on MIT Mfin program. I've been tentatively looking at their program, but am very confused. The program seems to be listed as a plain MFin program, however the prereqs (i.e. backgrounds) for their program seems very quantitative. They reccommend pretty advanced mathematic and programming backgrounds for the typical MFin program: http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mfin/admissions/suggested-background-work-and-s….
Just seems to me to be more of an MFE than anything else.
Thanks!
Great perspective post. I printed/saved this right away for future reference.
I'll let IP answer this further as he looked at MIT's program pretty in depth, but those math stats are maybe slightly more that most all MSF programs. I used all or most of those skills/classes at Nova's program which is a normal corporate finance focused MSF program.
Thanks. I guess I'm just curious about how people with more "vanilla" finance backgrounds from undergrad would ever be able to get into these types of programs.
I've done a few levels of calculus and basic economic stats, but have never really delved into linear algebra or probability (never had to! just did calculus out of pure interest/boredom with other finance classes being offered). Also, I have never had to do any programming (even our advanced math classes at my school take a more classical approach, i.e. all pencil and paper).
I guess it just seems weird that they can even call this MFin, when many MFE programs that I have seen require very similar skills, with maybe the exceptional inclusion of a differential equations.
Thanks. I guess I'm just curious about how people with more "vanilla" finance backgrounds from undergrad would ever be able to get into these types of programs.
I've done a few levels of calculus and basic economic stats, but have never really delved into linear algebra or probability (never had to! just did calculus out of pure interest/boredom with other finance classes being offered). Also, I have never had to do any programming (even our advanced math classes at my school take a more classical approach, i.e. all pencil and paper).
I guess it just seems weird that they can even call this MFin, when many MFE programs that I have seen require very similar skills, with maybe the exceptional inclusion of a differential equations.
Out of curiosity, do you think Princeton MFins or ORFEs place better? I know a lot of MFins take classes with the ORFE undergrads.
Probability isn't that hard. You'll pick it up pretty quickly. For a grad program in finance you're going to need to be able to gut through math up to a point. Just the nature of finance. Especially considering how much math goes into the core of many theories people use every day.
I wouldn't let it scare you.
This is a bit off topic, but did you always have a knack or mathematics? Or, do you have to study and practice really hard to excel in your quant courses.
I have some biases since I don't go there.
Look, it's a strong program with a high placement rate. I think that comparing the two programs without unfairly stepping on people's toes is tricky but possible for a sober IP who is not posting on a Friday night off of an IPhone.
I got Bs in a few math classes. But I always did well on standardized tests, and I was always good with algorithms and threading problems as a programmer.
I had a knack for understanding stuff in the tough classes where studying was impossible and I had a more difficult time in the courses where executing perfectly - and canceling three negative signs- was more important. I am good but not amazing at algebra.
Great post. I'm starting at one of the East Coast programs you mentioned (NYU/Columbia/CMU/Cornell) and am looking forward to it.
I get the sense that MIT is a pretty quantitative program. Many students at Princeton also applied to and were admitted at MIT.
MIT's main advantage is that it is a one year program. I'm a little surprised they're going for mostly undergrads because a one-year program that precludes internship opportunities is going to be better for people with lots of front office work experience and a large network. These are the kinds of people who don't need an internship.
Another big advantage for MIT is that it is a larger program, which means the recruiting process is going to be a little more systematic and organized. The disadvantage is that it's a little easier to get lost in the recruiting crowd and there is also the argument that MIT is less selective because of the larger class sizes and higher admissions rate. I'm not sure I buy that argument- at some point selectivity gives way to randomness, but you can count on the fact that the dumb money will buy it completely. (This may be the same dumb money that is making you get an MS at a Princeton or MIT or CMU to prove you could have gone to a target school.)
I do get the sense that it is a little closer to the MSF programs than MFE programs on the continuum than Princeton is.
I think it's a little annoying to some students that Princeton is 80 minutes from NYC. Meanwhile, MIT is across the Charles River from downtown Boston. Then again, I hate NYC, so I have no problem being 50 miles away (or 800 miles away in Chicago for that matter).
I think the person who could benefit more from MIT than Princeton is probably going to be an industry person with a large network who wants to get a Master's degree, but doesn't want to lose two years in the process. He did his undergrad at Baruch, he has become an amazing trader, has a track record, and a lot of people know and like him and want to work with him. But he is bored with work right now and wants to go back to school, but only for one year. (Not two- that would be too expensive). The opportunity cost of the extra year is a bigger issue than the cost of tuition at Sloan.
This, IMHO, would be the perfect candidate for a one-year program like MIT. However, MIT has been preferring people straight out of undergrad, so it may be more difficult for him to get in. MIT is a great program as it stands and gets something like a 90% placement rate. They'd be getting a 95% placement rate, especially for people without work experience, if they shifted that summer session to a 3rd fall semester and let students do an internship.
For programs of equal length, and for someone who has no preference on campuses or cultures, I think the standard advice is probably to choose Princeton. For someone who has a lot of work experience and was admitted to Princeton's two year program and MIT's one year program, the advice gets more complicated. I think it depends on the opportunity cost (are you earning $200K? $500K?), how much of a break you need from work, and how much stochastic calculus and econometrics you want to learn. I still think Princeton wins in many situations although MIT makes more sense in a number of situations. (Where the opportunity cost of an extra year is very high).
Even for a one year admission, a decision between MIT and Princeton is a bit like the choice between studying CS at Berkeley and Stanford. You have two campuses with very different cultures. Even the idiots out there know that Berkeley has a great CS program, but some of the idiots still think a kid from Stanford is smarter than a kid from Berkeley (probably not true). IMHO dealing with that minor annoyance is worth it if you really like the students at Berkeley and can't stand the students at Stanford.
I think the typical admission at Princeton for 75% of students who don't speak French and do not already hold a PhD is two years (somewhat negotiable), while MIT only lasts one year. This largely holds for experienced admits, too. This is an advantage for people who would not benefit from an internship in landing an FT job offer.
TLDR:
MIT is a great program and the decision between MIT and Princeton isn't all that straightforward. Some will claim Princeton is more selective and gets better placements, but the difference between the top 7% and top 4% of an applicant pool is fairly random. If you enjoy one campus and hate the other, that outweighs any difference between the strengths of the programs. Engineers can be more fun for quants to hang out with, and MIT is the best school in the country for engineering.
I think Princeton is a little more quantitative and gives you a few more opportunities to work in more quantitative roles. MIT's advantage is that you will be admitted to their one-year program. This advantage is less straightforward for students straight out of undergrad who could really benefit from an internship, while it's probably more helpful to students with several years of work experience and a broad network of former coworkers at multiple firms in front-office roles who can vouch for them.
I think Andy Nguyen and the crowd at QuantNet is really the place to go for better advice on this.
I think Princeton gives us access to a lot of stuff that a typical MFE program doesn't. Sure, there is the stochastic calculus, the ICAPM, the ARMA models, the econometrics, the regression/prediction stuff. Princeton also requires us to take five finance electives, which includes everything from Behavioral Finance to Financial Crises. There are a lot of opportunities here to become not just a better quant but a better trader or better PM. Students take everything from entrepreneurship to negotiation to portfolio optimization their second year.
The first year, similar to a one-year program like Chicago, is about training financial engineers. I think the second year is about giving people a toolkit for if/when their responsibilities extend beyond pricing and basic prediction. That may not come for a while, but it's useful. I never thought I would use numerical methods in undergrad when they forced me to take it, and I didn't use it in my first job, but after I got my first promotion, I found myself using them a lot.
great thread IP
i read somewhere that the average age MIT MFin is 21.3 any clue about the Princeton MFin? or what was your impression?
also, how about yourself? (age range would be fine) thanks!
alot of work and ass kissing to be a poor dad
Average age for our class is probably 25-26.
Several guys between 30 and 35.
Youngest turned 21 a few weeks before entering the program.
thanks! much appreciated
Where do most folks from MIT and Princeton MSFin place? The reason I ask is that I have not seen any resumes from those folks looking for traditional IB positions or met anyone in IB with that background (I am sure they are out there, they just do not seem to be common).
Do most of them look to go directly to HF? Is ER popular?
Just wondering....
Well, only about 30-40 of us graduate every year, so that's 1/30th the number of students that graduate from Booth or HBS.
Many of us land at hedge funds. Some of us land at banks in research and trading roles- occasionally you'll see someone land in PE or IBD. A few who go into research will do ER; just as many will wind up in Credit or Quant Strategy. I'm currently aware of at least one student in my class who is interning in IBD (he is in London this summer). So a small handful are on the IBD/PE/Consulting track.
IP, I have two questions. The GRE writing portion went poorly; I didn't take it seriously. I know they don't look at it closely but a 3.5 is pretty damn low. Should I retake it? The important sections went well (167 Q/166 V). Also, the application asks for three recommendations from professors. Do you think it would be acceptable to have two from professors and one from a coach? Three from professors just seems excessive. Thanks.
The GRE writing portion went poorly; I didn't take it seriously. Should I retake it?
I don't know. It seems pretty borderline. A 3.5 could be that you didn't take the exam seriously for that part (which is probably ok) or that there is a bit of a language issue (problematic, but will bear itself out if you get an interview) or that you suck at writing (not ok for working in finance).
If your application is borderline for an interview, retake the GRE. Otherwise, I'd let the 3.5 stand. Unfortunately, I don't know what borderline for an interview is in the context of an undergrad applying here. If you have a 3.8 GPA in CS from MIT, you are probably fine. If you have a 3.6 GPA in Physics from UW Madison, you don't want to give them an excuse to take your application out of the to-interview pile.
I think your other numbers are fine. And FWIW I applied with a 4.5 AWA. I suspect we have admitted students with much lower AWAs.
>Also, the application asks for three recommendations from professors. Do you think it would be acceptable to have two from professors and one from a coach? Three from professors just seems excessive. Thanks.
Hmmm. My last application round, I had two quants with PhDs (Not professors but with published research) and one manager write my recs.
You can probably go with a coach if the other two references are professors. At least one (ideally two) of those professors should be able to speak to your quantitative ability. However, if there is another finance person or a STEM/Econ/Finance PhD who is not a professor who can write a rec for you, I think that would help you more than a coach. If you are at a school with a competitive Finance or Econ PhD program, a senior PhD student would also work better.
Undergrad schools care about your dedication, discipline, yadda yadda yadda. Grad school doesn't care about that. They care about:
1.) How you are going to do academically 2.) Whether you are actually prepared to do this program 3.) Whether we can place you, and how well you will place (read: get one industry rec if you can.)
Ha, well he was an IB analyst at a BB but quit after a year since he hated it. I doubt that counts for much. As for the writing, I'm a native English speaker so that isn't the issue. Maybe I'm a terrible writer but I think in this case it's more related to the fact that I had absolutely no argument about one of the topics (fine art). Thanks for the input; it's tremendously helpful.
Hey thanks for this. Anyway I'm also asking about the quant portion of getting in. FAQs state that previous exp in quant degrees (CS, Math, Physics, Engineering etc) are preferred but not required. How true is this? Have you met anyone with a non-hardcore quant degree? I'm asking cuz my undergrad is in Accounting and Finance. Not super-quant but some of the finance and econs mods were pretty rigorous (relative to other programs).
But there are some serious math requirements for the program. You should have Calc I-III, Linear Algebra, and Calculus-based Probability. These courses (except maybe Calc 1-2) are typically not taught as part of an undergraduate Finance/Accy program in the US. (However, they are often taught as part of an econ or finance program in other countries.)
Hi IP. Thank you so much for your sharing. I'm planning to apply for MFE programs, and Princeton is of my favorite for whatever reasons. I found your article quite helpful and I hope you can give me more advice on it. Here is my case. I grad in Hong Kong in 2013, and had applied for Princeton but failed (not even an interview..). Then I worked for two years until now. I am a quant developer in a prop trading firm, which is quite profitable these two years. I just got certified for FRM. My academic was good. GPA3.7, first honor. GRE Q170+V156+AWA4. However I find myself more interested in a PhD program, though I have no research experience at all. You said Princeton sent a few students to PhD. That is one of the reason I love this program. But because of my lack in research experience, do you think I should state my interest in this field, or I should just focus on my professional experience in the personal statement? What do you think my chance is, and in which way I could improve my chance? Thanks a lot.
Hi John. You definitely have a shot although it's not a sure thing. Where you are applying from (EG Hong Kong or US) is going to make a difference in the level of competition for seats.
You need to find a way to distinguish yourself from the hundreds of other applicants. A quant developer job at a prop shop and decent grades/test scores is a good start but isn't enough. It may be helpful to find something that a quant geek would never do and highlight that on your resume. A lot of our admits ran marathons, did bicycle racing; some of them were in the French military response to the Haitian earthquake. Another was a professional guitarist. I was probably helped by hang gliding and motorcycle racing.
Jan Kozak is an example of a Princeton graduate who went to our program and is now doing an Econ PhD at UChicago. You may want to check out his profile on LinkedIn.
Thanks a lot for your advice. I'll try to contact Jan for PhD issue. BTW, I have taken GRE twice. 1. Q170(98%) + V156(71%) + AWA4(56%) 2. Q169(97%) + V162(90%) + AWA3(15%) Which do you suggest me to use in my application? Do they consider writing skills?
AWA definitely gets looked at. At the very least Bendheim reports median and mean AWA numbers internally.
My take is that it isn't first order (unlike Q) but it can provide background. If you are applying from Asia your English communication skill will be looked at a bit more closely. A high AWA score could allay some concerns about your written communication skill. However it will raise expectations for your interview.
You asked a question that requires a lot of nuance to answer... nuance that I may not have. I'd stick with 1 for the higher Q (first order) and higher AWA (second order, at least for a foreign applicant), and not worry too much about the V.
Thank you so much. I'll take your advice.
@IlliniProgrammer What would you suggest to catch up on the math prereqs for this program? (Where? If I have to catch up, is it worth ROI to time spent?)
I dropped out of med school. I haven't taken more than Calculus I, however my father was an Ivy League PhD in physics, who became an attorney (total Renaissance man). For this reason, I feel I could likely do it, though my dad is ah, unavailable. As you say, I could probably convince someone I "want" Princeton, but likely "don't need Princeton".
Can you speak more to the justification for this program and what you actually DO with it? Where are the former graphic artists, piano performance students you mentioned now? I probably have more in common with them than yourback office "nerd". I have demonstrable talent in fine art and I speak a European language at the B1 international language standard, for example. It is hoped I could get a front-office, client-facing position. I have experience micromanaging students.
If you have a better idea, I'm all for it.
*Particularly interested in perspectives from women.
Princeton Masters in Finance - Average gmat scores? (Originally Posted: 04/18/2007)
I've been looking for the average GMAT and GPA to get into the Princeton Masters in Finance (M.Fin) program, but no real luck so far. I'm guessing you need to have above 680 GMAT and 3.8 GPA. Let me know if you think my estimates are too high, too low, or just about right. Also what else do they look for when you apply to a program like this? Thanks
You also need Calc 1,2 + Lin alg + real analysis
Yeah, I was planning on those. I'll also be finishing up Probability, Econometrics, & Mathematical Methods for Economists(basic review of clac applied to econ). I know cal tech want you to have C++ programing but is it necessary for the Princeton program?
I heard some good things about Harvard's MBA program as well, supposed to be a decent program
Hahaha. Good times on the forum.
I like the Princton program alot. Most Harvard MBAs cannot add, but the Princton program gives a nice background in stoch calculus and other quant areas that might be useful for trading/research. On the other hand, they also have the soft classes if your more into corporat finance or whatver.
I applied but did not get in. Check out the profiles of th students....many have phds or were physics majors at MIT or something. The MS finance program at vandy is also strong.
The MFin is a kick ass program. If you have the mathmatical aptitude you should pursue it like a champ. I would love to do it but I just don't have the math. Similar Programs: Oxford has a MSc in Financial Econ Cornell has a MEng in Financial Engineering Cambridge has the MSc as well Berkeley has something too
Cambridge actually has an MPhil Finance, not a MSc, but the difference seems to be minimal (basically just means it's easier to stay on for a PhD if you want to).
I'm currently on the program and can definitely recommend it - stellar placement in London (essentially everyone who wanted an IB job got one; mostly front office IBD with the big names as well, we've got quite a few guys going to GS, MS, Greenhill) and as you get to chose your modules you can make it as technical as you want to, ranging from pretty much no maths whatsoever and mostly management courses to hardcore financial engineering if that's your thing.
The Princeton masters seems strong as well, I guess it's more of a decision to be made based on Ivy League vs Oxbridge or US vs UK.
The MFE at Oxford is generally more technical, much more expensive and seems to place more students into second tier banks than the top ones - we actually have students here at Cambridge who did the MFE last year but didn't manage to find a job and are now getting a second masters instead.
Just PM me if you're interested in more info about the Cambridge MFin, I'd be glad to help out.
I just applied to a whole bunch of these programs this past year. The best are (in no particular order): NYU, Columbia, Princeton, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford, Berkeley, U of Chicago, U Toronto.
I don't know what the averages are for Princeton but I got in with a 3.8 GPA (math major) and 800q 790v GRE. All the info you could ever want about admissions to these programs is actually available at www.global-derivatives.com
Cheers
Thanks. These comments have been enlightening.