I recently stumbled upon this site again after many years. I was active on here as a student (under a different username) and it proved quite helpful to me at the time, so I thought I would give back. Feel free to ask me anything and I will try to answer in as much detail as I can, although I will be a bit vague/give ranges with information that could reveal my identity.
Some background about myself: been working in FICC for the last 5 years, moved to my current trading desk around 3 years ago, and primarily focus on DM rates.
Hey, thank you for your QnA session. I hope you are doing well.
Thank you.
I started in FICC straight out of university and have been there since. I don't have a masters degree.
I got my own book as an analyst within the first 3 months of starting, however it was a small book trading a product/market that the other members of my team didn't care about (understandably). That book by itself did not justify a headcount though so I also worked on another team that sat with my main team and ended up spending 80% of my time assisting the secondary team. The other team did not really take any risk though, so I didn't really learn much that helped me with my current risk-taking while spending time with them. Due to some departures on my main team, I was given a bigger book on my main team towards the end of my time as an Analyst (mainly as an interim trader while they would look to hire someone senior) and luckily I managed to do well during tricky markets, which led to the head of the desk deciding to let me just take over the book rather than hiring externally. I've held that book since and been able to pick up one or two more, once again due to departures at fortuitous times for my career. To be honest, doing well when covering a book post-departures is the story for most junior traders that work their way up to bigger responsibilities early in their career. Having a great manager that is willing to take a punt on a junior that shows potential is also a necessary ingredient.
As far as trading stress, dealing with that comes with experience. It's very common for analyst traders to feel imposter syndrome and hard to break away from the academic mindset of aiming to be right at least 90% of the time, but it's necessary to do it if you want to be successful as a trader. At the end of the day, it's a confidence game. Initially it is hard, but as you begin to make small amounts of PNL, your confidence will grow and it becomes recursive. I still remember fretting when I lost 10k PNL on any given day during my first few months as an analyst, but then that grew to 20k, 50k, 100k, 500k, 1mio and so on. To be fair, a 1mio drawdown will still spoil my mood for the day but that's just my personality.
As far as learning is concerned, you can and should ask as many questions as you can from the more senior traders. But you also have to be aware of the fact that there are many different styles of trading so its always good to try and understand that particular senior traders' approach as a foundation for the advice they give you (are they momentum traders, do they trade very directionally or do they do a lot of relative value, how do they handle drawdowns etc.). Once you've done that, the most important step is to actually try and take risk yourself. I learnt the most from the mistakes I made, particularly with regards to not trading emotionally and being honest with myself about having the wrong view and therefore chopping the risk.
Hey - thanks for doing this! Do banks care about Sharpe ratio of their traders? Mostly talking about the ones who trade more prop style. Also, is trading at a bank and having exposure to all the flow/people easier due to more info compared to at a hedge fund or so?
Indirectly, yes. By having a daily mark-to-market on your positions and having drawdown limits, you're forced to trade towards an at least half-decent Sharpe. But it's not a number that is brought up during your reviews or other meetings.
Having visibility of the flow can be a big advantage for some desks, but these are the desks that see a lot of flow and don't end up trading much prop anyway (because they don't need to and often manage wouldn't want them to potentially erode franchise value through principal risk). My desk does not have much genuine flow and only really sees requests from HFs, so the flow itself is not an advantage. Ultimately, the HFs are trying to put on the same trade that you are (if you're profitable), so you have to beat them to it, because the moment they start looking to put it on, they will ask the whole street and it becomes a whole lot harder to get the risk on. However, the benefit I gain is that I learn to trade like a HF PM. Also, when the whole market is caught the wrong-way (myself included) on a move, my direct access to the market enables me to potentially get out of my risk first on the off-chance that a tourist market participant decides to come in and fade the move.
Thanks for the insight! Have you ever had a down/flat year, and if so how does this impact your standing on the desk and comp (I imagine bonus would get zeroed). Also, do you see yourself as a technical short-medium term trader or a fundamental medium-long term trader?
Thank you for doing this!
What type of bank are you at (BB)? What does comp look like at the VP level for FICC trading? Is exiting to a HF or another fund/industry something you've considered? What are good desks for HF recruiting (any difference between distressed credit vs rates for eg.)?
Thanks!
I'm at a BB. I won't state my comp as that could potentially be giving away my identity but I can give some rough ranges from the numbers across a wide range of colleagues/friends with varying levels of profitability and also at different banks. All these numbers are for traders that have their own books (i.e. a number next to their name). Some got lower comp than others despite higher PNL because their books are understood to have more franchise value.
Analysts: 150k to 350k (getting more than ~250k requires some serious outperformance)
Associates: 225k to 1.5mio (I know six separate individuals in the 600k-1.5mio range across 3 different banks, some of whom earned these numbers multiple years as Associates. Getting through the 7-figure threshold at this level requires senior Director/MD level PNL and also a track record of outperforming your peers at a similar level.)
VPs: 250k to 2mio (At this point, it starts to become quite meritocratic. If you don't make money, you'll just get your base and a small token bonus. If you make a lot of money, you'll get paid. While I don't personally know any cases beyond the 2mio mark, I would bet that there are a handful out there.)
The key to getting paid is knowing what your PNL would be worth elsewhere and for management to know that you know. I've seen a fair few cases of people being underpaid massively only to get counteroffered what they were initially due when they resign for another bank (think counteroffer of 2-3x what they were paid).
I've seen a few posts on here that talk about how bad the pay is in trading nowadays and how you'll be lucky to be a VP earning 300-400k. These are posts from people that either have no idea what they're talking about or do not understand statistical distributions. Pay in S&T is highly variable and it is not normally distributed. You're floored at your base salary (unless you get let go) and your tails to the upside are quite big and asymmetric (see here: https://www.efinancialcareers.hk/news/2022/01/goldman-sachs-bonuses). For that reason, you can't look at trader pay using averages. Hell, I know franchise traders at tier 3 non-BB shops that don't take much risk if any and get paid 600-800k all-cash. Most traders will know roughly what percentage of their PNL to expect in terms of comp even though it's discretionary and not baked into your contract, because traders on the floor do talk with one another. That being said, there are diminishing returns to comp so you can't expect to be paid 3x in your 60mio PNL year compared to your 20mio PNL year.
Rant over.
I've always considered being a PM at a HF and have been offered such roles in the past. Ultimately for me, I'm trading in a similar way already and running a much larger "book size" in my current role than what the HFs are offering me. So even if I make the same returns, their 3x payout on a book which is a third the size gets me to the same number. To leave an environment I'm intimately familiar with and a great team/work environment to start new for the same short-term end goal doesn't make sense to me at this point. Of course, if I do well at a HF, my book size and therefore my earnings could grow massively but I guess I just don't care about money that much. Side note, it's also a lot easier to do well as a trader if you really enjoy what you do and the people you do it with.
Trading derivatives is a good way to build the exact skillset that is utilized by HF PMs in that space. Avoid the micro-space (e.g. equities and corporate credit) because you're competing with people from IBD/PE/Research backgrounds as well for those roles and if I had to guess, you'll be outclassed.
There is one thing I want to add on the comp side of things. The variability is always going to be the case when you have a number next to your name. It may not seem that way when you look across at IBD and see that they average out to slightly higher numbers at the Analyst-VP grades. This is simply because they're putting in more hours and do not have a number next to their name. In their world, the PNL-responsibility only comes at the Director/MD levels. But once you get to those levels, it is almost as variable as S&T. Hence, it is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
Despite the Volker rule, how would you compare your position as a trader to being a prop-trader? I recently accepted a full-time ER position at a top BB, but have been increasingly interested in trading commodities. Can you explain a bit of the Pros of trading at a BB vs a Gunvor/Glencore/Vitol. Thanks!!
Regarding Volcker, I'll just copy and paste my comment from another thread: "Volcker doesn't make much of a difference. Traders can just say their risk is in anticipation of client flow. Funnily enough, while that may seem like a cheap way to get around Volcker, it's actually true if you're a profitable trader. If it's the right trade that ends up making money, inevitably there will be clients asking you for a price who are looking to do the same thing at some point. As a market maker, it's your job to decide whether you want the client to take you out of some of your risk for a bit of spread or if you think the trade has a lot more to run and you price wide enough to miss."
Honestly, I don't know enough about how the commodities trading operation works at Gunvor/Glencore to comment on this and don't want to speculate at the risk of giving you incorrect information.
If you are trading in anticipation of "client flow", who's money are you trading? How does that work? Sorry if this is a bad question.
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Hey, thank you so much for joining! I'm interning at BB in S&T this summer and trying to figure out whether I should go the S or T route. Primarily interested in joining a Rates or Credit Desk. I'm an econ major and have read the Hull textbook on options,futures,+other derivatives, but part of me thinks I wouldn't be a good fit in a trading seat given I don't have a real "STEM" background. Guess my question is: How much in-the-weeds applied math is there on the job? Or as long as you understand the theory of what's going on behind your models, does that suffice?
STEM background is definitely not needed but it can be helpful. As long as you can do basic arithmetic in your head, you'll have met the numerical minimum requirements. Of course, if you're trading a non-linear product like swaptions, you'll need more mathematical aptitude. The biggest determinant of your success in sales vs trading is going to be your interest level in the role itself.
Could you give me an example of what king of quick mental problems you are solving on the floor?
Also, are sales ppl any more or less likely to be promoted to more managerial positions in the firm?
On average doesn't make any difference. At the margins, it depends more on the politics of the division and whether the balance of power lies more with sales or trading.
What's the risk of getting canned after a bad year? Trading is my passion but not sure if i can stomach the volatility of pursuing it as a career
After one year, very low. As a junior you're fairly insulated and even when you're more senior, one bad year wouldn't be enough most of the time.
Thanks for doing this. Have you ever seen traders starting off in buyside as trader/sub pm to move to sellside? Would you think it is a wise choice?
Personally, I have not seen that.
The merits of starting on the buyside as a junior really depend on which shop you are starting at and under which PM. If your PM blows up and gets let go, you probably will too.
How would you prepare for summer analyst recruiting? What material to read, etc. Current sophomore interested in trading
Thanks for offering to do this. Some questions and I completely understand if these are too personal or you'd rather not answer.
1) What is your outlook on trading opportunities/risks in 2022 in your space? Beyond the mainstream narrative (e.g., rate hikes/inflation, potential Russian conflict)
2) What do you wish you knew now about your role that you didn't know when you started?
3) If you had a magic wand, what is the one thing you'd change about Trading at your BB and one thing you'd change about Trading in general?
Appreciate the time
1) Apart from the central bank rates trades, liquidity withdrawal is going to be a major theme. So many markets have been inflated due to the flooding of liquidity by central banks (stocks, crypto, real estate, luxury cars, luxury watches etc.) and it's going to be quite interesting to see how far they can crash when that liquidity is pulled from the system.
2) Good risk management and patience are much more important than how often you are right. You can often have the right view but express that view at the wrong time or via the wrong trade and end up not making money.
3) Answers to both questions are the same - move away from daily mark-to-market. Worrying about daily PNL can make you miss the bigger picture and also stop out of trades exactly when you should be adding. Often I end up making more money when I go on holiday because I take a holistic view of the risk I want to leave behind and then I don't look at it for a week or two. It prevents me from overtrading.
Thanks!
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Could you please provide more examples of good risk management practises; any books you've read on it, or whether you acquired those from people you followed / observed from that are otherwise not well documented. Thank you
Also from the perspective of trade ideas generation, I was wondering whether or not you could elaborate from your experiences or observations that, what type of trading edge you have that allowed you to step up your risk taking size? (i.e. whether if see more asymmetrical information edge in FICC, or R/V edge in DM rates or you are better at macro intuition reasoning than your peers etc...)
Also I was wondering how much opportunity you see in DM rates are attributed to carry trades on the term structure? and whether or not this type of trade contrains the banks balance sheet. Thank you
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I prefer linear but that's just a personal preference. Both have their merits and their drawbacks.
How would you say the prop element is different than before GFC. Is it just the holding period that has changed? I.e can’t put on positions for greater than 5 weeks or whatever. Though I have heard traders at Goldman or DB can’t remember was buying up distressed credit and holding it for longer periods. Are there pockets in the volcker rules for different asset classes? And secondly are you not allowed to invest in single stocks for personal? Thanks dude.
I think the risk limits are a bit smaller on average. There are no holding period requirements for my positions at work.
For personal stock trades, most names are eligible for me to trade.
Does your BB (or other BBs for that matter) hire traders out of MBA programs? If so, what is the best way for someone with no prior relevant experience to position themselves for such a role?
Did not see this comment, but my question is similar I guess
I don't think so. There's no value add from having an MBA, at least in my space. They would much rather hire out of the internship programs for undergrads. That being said, I don't think there's any barrier for MBAs to apply to the same internship programs as undergrads.
Thanks for doing this. I'm curiosus: is age/professional background discriminatory in your field? I've seen many people jumping from credit research roles to trading roles whithin AM shops in Europe (one guy in particular was able to pivot from a 8 years career in credit research to a trading seat in the same firm), but I was wondering if a 32/33 years old coming from the corporate world might have a shoot at an associate trading seat at a BB.
If you have no prior experience, I think the only constraint would be whether you're eligible to apply for the internship programs. At the moment, this seems to be the only avenue in for non-experienced hires.
Hello,
Thank you for putting this together. Your responses have already provided me much clarity into what a potential career in Sales & Trading is really like. I am interning at a BB in Sales and Trading this summer and am starting to read books on equity derivatives and general finance. There seems to be a never-ending list of "good" finance books and I am stuck having to pick and choose which ones to read.
If you were to go back 4 years, as a junior trader, which book do you believe would have provided you the most value? This book doesn't necessarily need to be directly related to trading.
Once again, thank you.
I didn't read any books about trading as a junior. I think you're much better off jumping into the deep end and learning from your own experiences than reading about someone else's experiences. You can find yourself in the exact same situation that you read about but you may react completely differently to it.
What do you think is the best way to prepare for a summer internship program? Are there any books or skills that are must-have as an intern coming in and what desks would you say are the most valuable in terms of learning as a junior? I know desks are different for every bank but are there any, in general, that you think stand out compared to others? Thank you!
You're not expected to know anything and its worse if you try and give off the impression that you know a lot. Recommend getting some basic product knowledge if you know which desk you will be on and also keep up to date with the markets as a whole.
Most of your learning will happen when you hit the desk. I generally recommend juniors be willing to put their views out there. The views will often be wrong but when someone more experienced corrects you, learning takes place.
I have a possible offer as a a quant on a sell side desk. It seems like most of my work will be developing tools like pricers for traders. I've talked with others on the desk and it seems like it's possible for me to grow into an actual trading/structuring role, though not I'm not sure of the likelihood. In general, is this a good way to learn about the products being traded on the desk?
It's a very good way to learn the mechanics of the product, but you probably won't learn much about how you trade them/what drives the market.
Thanks may I see how to transition from a buyside trading assistant to a trader with your own book?
what goes into the book actually?
does it consistent of flow trades + prop trades and what is the rough mix?
how is it different from managing client's money?
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I am extremely interested in trading however missed the application for summer program. Graduated from France, I find quite a few traders have strong quantitative background and thus they prefer students with similar background. Also, there are some traders coming from quants.
1. My first question would be do you think quantitative academic background is becoming more and more necessary for being a trader from the perspective of recruitment?
2. My second question would be what do you think algo trading and how do you see algo trading evolve in the future? Do you think there would be less trader needed due to automation by machine/codes?
3. This one is from my personal career development. I am determined to be a trader, however there are few available roles for junior. I am offered a structuring analyst role for securitization (ABS/MBS products). What's the chance to transfer to trading desk? Could you please also share your thoughts on mortgage products/markets?
Appreciated!
More so than quantitative ability, there is an emphasis on programming ability these days. Lately when I've been given a stack of resumes by HR, at least 50% of them seem to have some kind of programming aptitude (or so they claim). Personally, I think the ability to program is massively valuable in markets these days and I've seen many experienced traders (and even salespeople) start to learn how to program in their free time. That being said, being able to program is not going to be a holy grail to making money in itself. Analyzing data and coming up with systematic strategies is actually quite a creative process and definitely also requires some fundamental understanding of the products/market.
The trend of electronification is always there and will continue to be there. However, the point that is missed is that these algorithms need to be designed (requires a trader) and furthermore these algorithms need to be managed (requires a trader). This is especially the case when you begin to move away from simple products like single name equities or FX spot. Ultimately, a trader's role may change slightly due to electronification but there will always be a need for a trader.
Generally, I think that if you're unable to find a trading role directly, take any other role that gets you into the bank/trading floor. It's much easier to internally recruit for the trading seat than to do so from the outside.
Thank you so much for your reply. Quite insightful.
Yeah, I just keep going and evolving with markets. Appreciated!
Are each of these trading desks essentially mini hedge funds ?
What are your thoughts on the sell-side crypto market-makers like GSR, Genesis, Galaxy Digital?
I don't really have any unfortunately, sorry.
Story goes that some shops like Winternute are having trouble retaining people because bunch of them who were hired during the 2018-19 bear market had % contractual pnl and made so much money in 2021 that they are several times retired.
Not sure about those entering now. But being in a good crypto seat last year has certainly delivered some absurdly outsized money.
Holy shit that actually does make a ton of sense. Especially 2021 and 2020 with DeFi Summer and institutional volume stepping in. I actually did do a search on LinkedIn though and can’t find people from Wintermute or GSR or Genesis really moving much at all. I filter by past company to see where they are now… actually as I type this I assume they don’t update their LinkedIn to say retired lol so that’s very interesting. I know GSR pays bonuses 2x a year now and their online assessment was very difficult.
Do you have any insight into what comp is like in FICC sales at the analyst-associate level?
I think it's harder to get outsized comp as a junior on the sales side because the big accounts get taken by the senior salespeople. Sales is also much more political than trading. I think the HBO show Industry does a pretty good job of showing the politics within sales (albeit in a very exaggerated way). That being said, I do know of one case where an Associate in sales got 400-500k. He did very well that year though so this is not the norm.
1) Having an MBA makes a difference? MBAs usually start at the associate level. Does it make the club to vp faster or not really?
2) Do you get to pick which trading desk are you going to work? What are the desks more related to macroeconomics?
3) do you see trading as a "dying industry"? Do you see working in this industry 20yrs for now?
Thanks for doing this!
MBA makes no difference.
Yes and no. You can put in your preferences but ultimately they will put you where they have a need for someone.
Not really. I think it can change slightly due to electronification but ultimately the need will still be there.
Are you and your team currently working remotely or are many of the S&T people back in the office?
In the office but have also worked remotely for short stretches of time.
Thanks for the Q&A.I am a Business Analyst working FT (1yr) at Amazon recently graduated (less than 6months). BSc finance and MSc in statistics both from EU target. Bored at tech I would like to go back to finance especially trading. Any advice for a career change so early in my career ? Do you advice to wait for MBA ? Have you ever seen such a move ? Thank you for your help.
How does climbing through the ranks work? I mean, people leave at analyst/associate level usually for what reasons? How likely is it? I imagine that not everyone makes it to VP/ED level. Those people usually do what after?
Do you use technical analysts in your trades/know people that uses to most of its trades? (Other than flows)
I think getting to VP is not too challenging, as long as your performance is decent. How long it takes you to get there is dependent on how much you outperform expectations. Beyond that, I think politics can also be a factor. People can do a wide variety of things if they decide to leave the trading floor. I've seen people move into tech, crypto, asset management etc.
Personally, I don't use technical analysis much. On the exact same chart, I can draw lines that indicate its a buy and also lines that indicate its a sell, so to me it's just self-justification for a trade you already wanted to do.
Hello,
Thank you so much for starting this thread. I am a VP in Treasury (think Balance Sheet Management) at a BB and want to move to S&T (Trading) in 2023. I will really appreciate if you can provide some guidance.
1) I am a post MBA hire (directly from T20 program) and got recruited for this role. What should I do from now until end of the year to make the move?
2) What desks should I target keeping in mind factors such as compensation, longevity, growth, liquidity and exit opportunities (to HF)?
3) Should I start pursuing a CFA or FRM?
4) How should I go about networking?
5) What level should I target? I believe VPs are producers but as I need to learn the ropes first, this is a concern for me. At the same time, I would prefer not to move one level down unless there is no other choice.
6) Any other advice you have?
Thank you once again.
Your best bet is to network internally (reach out internally to the more junior traders and go from there). If your aim is to get into trading, I wouldn't worry about compensation or longevity at this stage. Try and get onto a trading desk first.
A CFA could be useful given you're not already in a trading role. At least that way, the desk would know that you have some basic knowledge of the products.
Thanks for the Q&A! I'm a college senior set to start as an analyst on the USD IG Credit Desk I interned with last summer in the coming months. Some of your comments seem to say that more macro strategy and complex products are better as a trader. Questions below.
1. Given my desk would you recommend I look for exposure to rates/derivatives etc. or focus on credit and look for exposure to HY?
2. Have you ever considered moving to a capital markets (DCM or Syndicate) role or is this outside your scope?
3. I like the idea of a hedge fund PM exit role and you mentioned above. For traders is this exit more applicable in the macro HF space or fairly common across the board?
1) I think it will always be good to have exposure to derivatives. How much exposure you'll be able to have from your desk is dependent on how much freedom your bank allows your desk.
2) I have absolutely no interest in DCM or syndicate. It's basically a sales job and you're just a grunt as a junior.
3) I think that moving to the buyside to be a PM is much harder when you're looking at micro products (equities & credit), because you're not really gaining the skillset that is needed to fundamentally understand and invest in those products. I suppose there are always systematic and RV shops where you could go but the options are more limited. Comparatively speaking, in the macro space you're directly learning the skills that you need to be successful as a PM so the role has a much more direct crossover.
(sorry for asking so many questions, I'm thinking about moving my career to s&t and any info is super helpful)
How much time do you spend doing monkey job (booking trades?) ? How was that at the associate level? Do you find your job fun?
For a 1st year associate, what are the general expectations? What are the activities?
Do you have a book to trade at this level? Can you make straightforward directional bets? (For example, you're on the commodities desk and think the oil movement will fade. Can you position your book for that? If yes, what are usually the time horizon for the trades? 1 day/1week/1month/1yr?
I honestly didn't spend much time doing any of that stuff. Everyone was responsible for their own trades so no one asked me to do that stuff for them. I used to grab breakfast for the rest of the team for the first few months but that was about it.
Expectations will vary depending on the manager/desk. For me, it was just about making money out of my book.
I had my book within my first 3 months as an Analyst. You can definitely make directional bets. The products that you can trade will vary depending on the desk though. Time horizon varies from a few minutes to a few months, depending on what the trade hypothesis is and how long it takes to reach my target or get stopped out.
Hi there thanks for sharing: I am currently running one of the main books at a non-BB and desk has decent pnl compared to others in the region (middle of the pack) and my book also performing well.
Is it worth giving up a trading role for a structuring role at a tier 1 bank? Is the brand name worth it for someone still early in their career (associate level)?
Depends on what your interest is. If you want to stick with trading but move to a BB, it will be easier to stay in your current seat and recruit through headhunters. If your PNL is solid, it's just a matter of waiting for a seat to open up.
I don't think brand name matters in the same way it might matter to someone in IBD. The street knows which bank is the best for a particular product/desk, so it's more about getting yourself on that desk. And even that doesn't matter in the medium term - you can be on the best desk at the best bank for what you trade but if your individual performance isn't good, you may not get as many opportunities as you hope for.
Thanks for this Q&A, it's super helpful!
I'm a second year analyst on a Rates Sales desk, but wanting to move into trading. Swaps appear most appealing to me compared to cash or vol (don't think I am quanty enough for vol being an econ major).
What is your advice for making the move into trading from being on the sales side within the same products?
Thanks!
Should be easier than most for you. Chat market views with your clients and the trading desk. Shoot trade ideas over to your traders and express an interest to join their desk if the opportunity ever presents itself. If you've shown the interest and do a good job in your current role, they'll strongly take you into consideration when the seat opens up.
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Hi thanks for doing this. I'm an analyst in the macro vol space. What would you say makes a good analyst? And what can I do to increase my chance for a HF exit?
For you and for trading at a BB in general, how important is being able to create alpha through directional strategies vs mostly being a risk manager? Is it tough moving from a seat where you're mostly just managing risk on a book/firefighting to one where you're market making or taking prop risk? Because I would imagine unless you have the ability to trade discretional strategies you forego the best comp as well.
Creating alpha is very important. Risk managing in its most basic sense (i.e. covering any risk you're given in the market like-for-like) is not really worth much money and can be done by almost anyone, so you're not really creating any value through this. In the end, the best performing traders are the ones that will have a view on every request that they quote (time horizon of the view can vary), such that they're only printing trades that they are happy to do and therefore don't need to go to market to hedge like-for-like.
Also wondering whether you know anything about investable index trading and if it's a good place to be? If not, is it easy to switch between desks?
Does your bank hire MBAs in S&T? Not much mention of S&T recruiting out of b-school here so I am curious
I'm reasonably certain we don't have MBA-specific recruitment programs but I have seen the occasional applications from MBA-students as part of the summer analyst application pool.
You mentioned comp as knowing what you’d get paid elsewhere. Can you give an example? What percentage of comp is typically tied to performance and how is is structured (eg if 1mio is your target, do you get a percentage after the 1mio is made or is it inclusive of your first million). Just got my risk limit so curious
You would compare your total comp against your total PNL to get a rough sense of your payout ratio. You would then break down your PNL into franchise value versus your contribution. Over time you will figure out the relative risk-taking capacities of other banks on the street, their franchise value for your seat as well as rough payout ratios. From this information, you can start to get a sense of what kind of PNL you would make there and roughly what you might get paid. If you find yourself getting paid vastly below what you could make at another bank (and this requires being honest with yourself about what PNL you actually think you would make), you need to find a way to make management aware that you know you're being underpaid.
A much easier way to achieve the same result is to have hedge funds engaging/recruiting you for a junior PM role. It's a small world and inevitably your managers will know that you're being sought after by HFs (and therefore you're likely aware of what you might get paid if you made the switch), which will result in them paying you appropriately to try and keep you.
Thank you!
New at a funding desk and execute FX swaps occasionally through my traders. Tried asking 2 of them how do they trade their respective products (FX forwards) but did not get a response. Can you share how do you decide to buy or sell points or direct me to any reading (tried googling to to no avail). As a funding desk person no matter how bad the FX points are, we would just hit it if the implied rate better than the depo market. Curious how FX forwards traders form a view (if points should move left/right) and act on them. All I know is that fwds are just interest rate differential between 2 currencies, so you should sell points if you feel that the differential would narrow?
FX swaps don't trade at covered interest rate parity so there's also a basis component to them vs CIRP. The traders would be positioning based upon their view on that basis given funding conditions and their views on relative liquidity, as well as their view on the interest rate differential.
You said you moved to your current desk 3 years ago. What desk did you move from?
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Am in ST equities in London, VP. 8 years of experience, 9 including internship. European BB.
In GBP base 120, bonus 20
Am broke
New account.. troll?
Nope genuinely felt like I wanted to share that not everyone makes money in this business.
Credit suisse ? :/
Barclays... thoughts ? I still cant get over it, seeing all my peers on 200K+ makes me sicks
Thanks for taking the time out to do this! I’ve just started a grad role on an EM FX trading desk - beyond general advice on how I can learn/add value, what are some pieces of advice that you can give to a junior who’s just starting out and trying to learn the ropes, especially within trading? Would be interested to hear what you think on some specific things that I can look at to become a better trader, especially when just starting out.
Thanks so much
Just trade and make notes of what worked well vs what went wrong. It's a game of experience and confidence more so than anything else.
Do you know if it's easy to shift desks at a BB? I'm starting out and not sure I want to stay on the desk I've been assigned to, but have heard on here that switching can be hard.. it's a macro orientated desk with many products but I'd prefer being a product specialist (oil, precious metals, rates, etc).
What’s your current desk?
Macro investible indices/systematic trading strategies. Exposure to trading many macro products but difficult to specialise in one.
As long as you have a good reputation on the desk you're on and your manager understands why you want to move, he/she will help you with the process. The time aspect of it is difficult because, at the end of the day, you can only move to another desk when there is a headcount available. Moreover, that headcount presumably has to be for someone that is relatively junior/unexperienced given you're like to not have in-depth product knowledge since you're coming from a slightly different background.
How big is an S&T class of analysts for let’s say NY at a bank
What do you think is the best desk for macro fund?(For instance, FX Option vs Spot) When should an analyst think about recruiting for buyside? Are seniors usually supportive of that?
Lame question, but what are the hours like for the average VP BB rates trader in NYC? Do most people take full 3wk / 4wks of vacation, or just the mandatory 2 weeker? Do people ever work weekends?
I have the opportunity to move to a BB rates desk from a buyside role, but I have above average family commitments to manage. Right now I have a relatively chill 55h/wk.
No one I know works weekends ever.
Most people will use almost all of their annual leave (4-5 weeks). In my experience, the hours vary depending on the desk you're on, so would expect 9-12 hours a day depending on the desk you're on and the culture of the team.
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