Top Commodities Position in the Industry?
What is the overall best job/program on the street right now for a fresh graduate looking to enter commodities (energy) trading? Looking at graduate programs and internships across trading houses, banks, oil majors, and HF what would be considered the top seat that a college graduate could possibly end up in?
BP TDP
Even with the low compensation relative to other roles?
Yes
BP TDP still king, 100 times over
Same answer but will clarify why BP TDP is the best entry level job some more.
It’s very structured and you get good exposure- 3 distinct rotations, usually in different assets classes and functions. Desks have done this every year for the last 20 years- so there are clear responsibilities and checklists for what you learn. Every trader did this program so they all know what you are going through and can mentor you. And then trading at BP is a good exit opportunity by itself though obviously some issues with the broader company as of late.
That structure is a huge advantage over less established, more informal programs for a new grad because the latter can be very vague. You can float around as an extra hand but without much clarity on career progression or what you are supposed to learn. You might see some other threads on here about commodities grads that don’t have a career path. That is not as likely at BP. Traders could have been assembled from a hodge podge of cultures and often just stick to whatever they are doing vs actively helping you.
After 3 years, it becomes clear who got trained up vs who had to learn through happenstance and osmosis. Obviously it’s not a guaranteed experience either way at any firm, but BP will make it more likely for you to be the former.
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Also interested in hearing something else aside from the obvious choice that is BP TDP
^ Is shell TDP a step down or is it marginal
They are not even an option in this case as they only take folks with 3 or more years of experience in a relevant role, with a preference for internal candidates. On top of that, you are not likely to get anywhere near as much experience doing any actual trading as you are at BP, as any trading prior to passing the TDP at Shell is a rare occurrence. This might partly explain why exit opportunities for those who don't land a trading seat at the end of the Shell program don't compare favorably to those from the BP program (can check linkedin for evidence of this).
A good exercise may be to poke around on linkedin and note where folks at funds have worked previously as well as where TDP alum from the various programs have ended up right after the program. If you are seeing a fair amount of alum from a particular program that are either not in trading roles somewhere else or worse, out of the industry altogether, I would take that as a sign.
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That's exactly why I posted this thread. I obviously understand BP has a strong program, but I find it hard to believe that there are not more competitive seats out there. Looking at the HF space you have Citadel, BAM, and SIG all offering graduate programs on the commodities desk with considerably higher pay. Then you have trading houses like CCI offering 120-140 base for the grad program or banks like Macquarie offering 110 base + bonus. I am not convinced that BP is still the best starting point in the industry.
agree with your sentiment but it's not really worth your/our time speculating tbh. apply to everything
Go look where the PM's are from. BP, Shell, Louis Dreyfus, Cargill, etc, etc. There is a reason.
Majority of the heads of new pods are from BP
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for ags, LDC
A lot of threads on WSO mention LDC to be the best for Ags exit opps. Looks like a lot of guys in the HF space in ags came from LDC. Wondering if anyone in the ags space can provide some more color on this. Historically seemed that Cargill was always top in prestige of the ABCD’s, but perhaps a regime shift? If so where do ADM and Bunge stand in terms of opportunities for aspiring traders against the other 2 now?
from what i understand, LDC tends to hire more from top schools than other ABCDs + starts juniors off in main trading offices vs assets, both of which are attractive to HFs. a quick linkedin search looks like the pipeline to hf seats remains strong including for guys with only a few years of experience
Good Question. LDC has always placed the best and has more of a culture of a revolving door between funds and their office. Its always positioned itself closer to the hedge fund model as others explained below with the "asset light model." But they wont be the "top dog" like Cargill is and likely will always be. Part of that is their sheer size and the fact that they are private. Cargill doesnt have the placements in funds like LDC does because they dont have the people leaving, their top traders start there and retire there and have a good program of moving people up the totem pole within house instead of having to jump to funds. That has and likely will change as the culture at Cargill and among younger professionals changes and the new classes of younger traders will look to outside opportunities.
Any thoughts on the TotalEnergies Trading Graduate Program?
Bump on Total
Probably think of bp's less competitive pay in the first three-years as the price for optionality in the commodity, given you really wants to develop. The trading bench has a sweet-spot mix of asset optimisation and prop trading. Traders job even after ATC will not be a given, but the process provides you enough skills and options to explore different job opportunities within the industry.
While reading this thread a new related question popped up in my head: It seems like most successful commodity HF PMs today work at one of the platforms and have quite a narrow mandate. Are there still places where you can have a broader mandate and do global macro stuff involving multiple asset classes? When I think about this I would really hate to just trade 1 asset class your whole career
many macro pms will have a pretty broad mandate to trade rates, fx, vol, equity index, etc
Also wheb they have a background at a major?
There will be less defined progression at the trading houses (glencore/vitol/trafi/gunvor/mercuria) compared to BP/Shell TDP. Also more risk of getting the chop as they will happily dispose of grads they see as unfit.
However if you are cut out for phys trading and lucky with product/timing, junior trader roles at these places are the best path to a % of P&L early on in your career, at shops with large mandates for risk-taking. These are the sorts of shops which best capitalise on 2022-style years of heightened energy mkt volatility. Simply need to take a look at their results.
Worth knowing some of those names don’t take fresh grads. 1-2 YOE at least.
I can second this. I got chopped from a trading house within a year. They are ruthless
I mean just be smart about this. In general the BP program is pretty decent in that it has everything you need to get a good base in the industry. That being said the european gas team at citadel (chris fosters team) hired a grad last year and that kids role is a million times better then the BP role. If you can get under a estabilished PM at a great fund its the best place to be but the quality of seat matters eg dont go for a PM that has just been promoted and doesnt have a track record.
I would echo this sentiment. BP program is fine for phys and has a clear track record for exiting talent into trading roles across the industry, but that is not equivalent to it being “the best role for a new grad”
Trading at a reputable prop firm (non-HFT) or starting on a strong HF energy team is better, but (1) these opportunities are relatively scarce/selective and (2) BP TDP (or analogous program) affords you a different sort of career optionality with respect to phys v financial
Roles trading financial from day one are best and allow you to “learn by doing”, but know that they are tough to obtain and that physical-to-financial is a more common career transition than financial-to-physical
Maybe, but from my understanding of citadel p&g in London they have a huge amount of quants/analysts to generate all kinds of esoteric forecasts and analytics and then they have a few huge risk takers to swing the bat. You would have to wonder how dedicated they would be to train you up as a risk taker when they have the means to hire basically whoever they want with a proven track record.
I tend to agree there. Even if you are an analyst on a strong team at the fund, that team is loaded with people so how likely are you to be owning something critical and differentiating even in the analysis and how common would they promote analysts to traders considering they could just hire traders directly from other firms without losing an analyst during that conversion.
The gas team was 3 PMs one just retired i think and then like 7 analysts so an investment team of around 10 people and they have supposedly done 11 figures of pnl in the last 5 years. I think the analysts on that team will be making more then 99.99% of traders (also remember that those analysts can call up any hedge fund in the world and get a trading seat)
true but really how many grads have been hired into citadel commodities in the last 10 years. less than 5?
even other shops which trade commodities in london (shaw, bam) barely take 5 a year (if any at all) so while these seats are great no doubt - it isnt even reasonable to target them since they dont open up every year
BP is more like banking in the sense they have set number of grads they take, train and promote
theres trading houses (glencore, cci) which do take grads asw and good places to start for phys
The original guy asked the question what is the best seat the answer to that is different to what is the best but realistic seat...
Vitol or Trafi junior programs, kind of think of it similar (albeit much smaller) to Goldman / MS IB to start your career
Anyone have opinions on goldmans gas team in Calgary and Houston
Banks are good if you are alright with being fired in any downturn
BP TDP is king and anyone telling you differently is just plain wrong its the golden standard if you want a clear path to a trading seat, shell TDP would be 2nd best. You can join other junior programs at trafi and cci but very low likelihood that you will be in a trading seat in 3 years maybe in 5-7 if your lucky. Yeah other programs will pay you more off the start but your going to be making less in the long term since your not going to be a trader as fast. With the BP program your betting on yourself and the pay is exponential as you will make less at the start but be making much more sooner than your peers
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