Best/worst hours on the street? (Australia)
Which BB's and EB's have the best and worst hours in Australia? Insights into culture would also be interesting. I heard EB's are generally longer than BB's.
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Have heard Gresham partners have pretty decent hours.
Same with Flagstaff I believe.
Considering they hardly do deals, I’d fucking hope hours aren’t shit
Have heard their hiring processes are not very meritocratic.
I heard the exact opposite. Heard they were very sweaty, lot of hours similar to other boutiques like Moelis / Luminis / Jefferies
Huge burnout in the boutiques you mentioned (jefferies/luminis/moelis). Terrible cultures with many analysts leaving less than 6 months into the role
Have heard first hand from some Gresham people that hours and culture are good. However, have heard that Moelis, Jeff and Luminis are terrible for hours and culture.
Could you please elaborate on Gresham? Maybe over DM if you’d prefer?
Super interested in it.
Bump
Have heard Citi has good culture.
JPM is very sweaty.
Keen to hear about this a bit more.
JPM being low(er than usual) on the league tables would tell me it's mostly marketing?
Culture is highly subjective and can vary right down to differing MDs in the same group. General anecdotal evidence:
Worth noting overall that Aus hours are generally better than London/NYC so a bad week at for e.g. JPM here may equate to a standard week at JPM overseas.
What does an average week look like for yourself? and what are weekends like? Just trying to benchmark to see if I have it good or bad.
60-80 hours average. 100 in the tough weeks. 1 day weekends pretty consistently albeit often a relaxed couple hours.
Heard anything about Allier?
Not much info available on small LMM boutiques. I don't imagine the hours would be too bad though (low deal flow, not much 'pitching' seeing they would lose most pitches to bigger places).
Lot of pre pen interns there heard it was pretty sweaty/manual for interns.
adding to this post:
Citi - group dependent, heard the infra IB is getting absolutely destroyed right now along with RBC's infra team (consistent 3am+)
Maccaps infra advisory equally as bad if not worse
BJ culture probably good but given their enormous dealflow i can't imagine the hours being any good
Rothschild - sweatshop
Jefferies - avoid like the plague
ICA - good culture but getting crushed atm
do you have any more info on those firms generally? particularly the ones less well known in the overall market but strong in infrastructure (RBC, Rothschild, ICA) - looking to make the move into infra IB and those names stood out as preferred spots (aside from Macquarie)
Anyone heard anything about BofA here? Don't hear much
BofA - long hours and lot of juniors turnover (saw ppl quitting before 1.5yrs)
UBS - used to be one of the worst before everyone left. Seniors work long hours and flows down to juniors
MS - not as bad
JPM - pretty bad juniors have to come in pretty early vs other banks
How up to date is your BofA info? Seems like they have had a revamp over the past couple of years.
3-6mths old my close mate works at BAML
Yeah really long hours but I guess along with that is great learning
Heard the BOFA infra team their is horrid - consistent 100 hour weeks, no breaks
Not sure about the actual hours, but definitely one of the sweatiest groups at the BofA along with FIG. Although, assume this is the same at all banks.
Lmao that's what working on Optus towers would do to you.
Welcome to banking, kid.
Citi??
Grant samuel known to have one of the best cultures in Aus
Have heard mixed things re: Grant Samuel. Sounds like hours are very dependent on the MD you work with -- stories I heard about one MD made it sound quite sweaty. Also know people that went through interview processes and said it was very unprofessional.
yeah have been hearing they been cutting candidates at final round due to psychometric testing recently which i felt was odd
I can attest to the interview process being very weird and unprofessional.
HR was all over the place, one of my interviews was just some assoc./analyst speaking about how he started working their from big 4. Seniors in final round seemed to not give a shit the whole interview. People I networked with were... 'unpolished'.
They also seem to do weird work. Fairness opinions, vague debt advisory... gave me the vibe of a boutique professional services firm that calls themselves an IB.
I heard they do lot of fairness opinions rather than executing deals
suprising amount of turnout in this thread. I wonder how many kids across aus seriously recruit for syd/mel offices a year? maybe like 50-60 ?
Do you mean the number of interns hired each year across the country? for reference, most of the larger BBs hire around 10-12 and some of the EBs and other smaller banks hire around 2-5. Obviously Sydney far more than Melbourne.
do you know if most analysts want to go transfer abroad? like nyc/london/hk
We just had 2k applicants for summers. With ~12 SA positions nationally and from that maybe 8 grads it's pretty brutal in Aus.
how many of those had a halfway decent resume? 150?
It's tougher than other markets simply because of the lack of seats, but I'd still say the competition is substantially weaker than the US or UK.
My theory is that this stems from the lack of competitiveness in local college applications - anyone who passes high school can basically go to any school in Australia or New Zealand - so you don't have an abundance of ridiculously strong candidates who've been working with admissions councilors to hone their profiles since junior high. In my experience anyone who had a top GPA (HD average in Australia, 7.5+ in NZ) got an interview for SA basically everywhere they applied, and plenty more were interviewed with weaker stats than that.
I'm a case in point. I graduated with the equivalent of a 3.7 but was dragged up by great grades in my final year, so I know my GPA was lower than that when I went for SA roles. Didn't have anything remarkable on my resume apart from an internship at a small, local brokerage - no scholarships, no standout ECs, no Big 4 TA internship. Still got to the final rounds at two BBs, and I know I had one in the bag if not for something regrettable I did at the "getting to know you" drinks with the team. Then when I applied for grad roles a year later I got to final rounds at two other banks.
can anyone provide some colour on the typical return rates across the street? pre-covid + 20' would be appreciated
80-90% from what I know
is this 2020 or pre-covid?
90% at my BB for most recent intern class.
is this 2020 or pre-covid?
100% for past two yrs at my BB
Very high - those who didn't return left for another industry (but was offered chance to return)
Citi is generally the highest with mid 90's, Goldman is by far the lowest with around ~50% (they do this intentionally).
CS/MS is also rlly high
Wtf GS 50%? Is that true? I thought most ANL / ASO were SA as well - is that just last summer or historical?
Moelis, Nomura and BofA - Terrible hours
I think Jefferies also sounds pretty bad from other analysts/assocs but their culture seems much better than those aforementioned
Any insights on the three mentioned?
I've heard terrible things about Nomura from multiple sources - very marketing heavy, long hours, below street pay, bankers actively seeking to leave - could see them leaving Aus very soon and following the Barclays model of exclusively underwriting Jarden's deals.
Have a good mate at Jefferies - they noted there's not a social culture and its top-heavy but that the hours aren't sweatshoppy at all (10pm finishes on average). Pay also seems to be on higher end of spectrum.
I agree Nomura is in a weak spot, but they have grown head count by hiring a few analysts and assocs recently
10pm finishes on average for Jefferies sounds pretty good tbh... compared to 12-1am average finishes at current bank
Any insights on Deutsche Bank?
Super strong in levfin, but pretty weak in elsewhere. Losing bankers at a pretty rapid rate.
I interviewed there quite a while ago everyone that I met left by now. They have 4 teams: GI, NatRes, Real Estate and I forgot the last one.
.... levfin?
Does anyone have any insight into culture / hours at Greenhill? Don’t hear much about them in Australia despite offices in Melbourne and Syd
No insight on hours or culture but are pretty decimated these days -- don't see them on many deals anymore.
Heard it was pretty hierarchical and long long hours. Take it with grain of salt cos it was from an intern who ended up going to another BB
They do no deals. People seem to stay there a long time but that may be because their exits aren't great. Melbourne better than Sydney.
This isn't what you asked for, but if you have time, I highly suggest you to reach out to the juniors at different banks. Whilst no analyst is gonna shit on their MD, most would be frank enough to let you know what their day-to-day life looks like.
This forum is great to get general tips on recruiting, but IMO, it's way too biased to give real insight into culture, given the perception of culture is inherently different from one person to another (insights into hours are a bit more objective).
If anything, during the recruitment process itself, you will have a much better understanding of the bank's people than anything you can read online. As you probably know, many banks have social elements included in the recruitment process (e.g., dinner; drinks night etc.). Hopefully with vaccination rates going up, these events will return next year.
I also want to add this: from my personal experiences across various banks (so not hearsay from friends at other banks), I have thoroughly enjoyed everyone I've interviewed or worked with. The culture here in Australia really is great in comparison with overseas and I would take ANY offer I receive - if you truly do hate the bank (you most likely won't), lateralling is both a viable and relatively straightforward option
Couldn't agree more. Majority of juniors would speak openly about each of their teams.
Hardest part seems to be for a candidate to get their foot through the door through SA/grad given the increasingly intensifying local competition, but once you're in - looks like it's an open market, easy for an analyst/fresh associate who wants to lateral to another bank (whether from an EB or BB)
Tbh purely from an experience and skills perspective, almost any IB would be a solid place to start and set someone up well for a good career.
Deals get undone, Its Australia. Everything is backwards. Real Tenet type shit.
Hours still probably ass as you turn your corrections into errors and then receive the pls fix email. This is why we don't go to Australia, not trying to get reversed timed.
Here are some i've heard:
Luminus: Sweaty, quite small so hours can be very long when required.
Maccap: Team dependent but some teams i know people work in got slammed as interns / analysts. Heard good things about MIRA though.
Deutsche: Smaller than used to be but hours generally reasonable: in a rebuilding phase after cuts in 2019 and having people leave organically in 2020.
JPM: Again team dependent but on the hard-working end: weekend work pretty standard, consistent late night finishes. Heard I&U gets slammed.
Gresham: Doesn't seem unreasonably hard working but heard consistent 10pm - 1am finishes.
I have heard absolutely horrible things about Luminis - not only are hours cooked but the entire culture emulates an early 2000's hardo factory. As in needing to "pitch" your bonus, very toxic seniors, widespread junior firing / exodus (unsure which it is but I've heard both) leading to pretty atrocious culture even among juniors
If you're a top candidate it's probably on your avoid list - any of the names on this thread will give you a solid experience vs pretty much every other opportunity you have as a grad, but if you can pick and choose I wouldn't be picking Luminis, Jefferies, CS, BAML (former 2 are sweatshops, latter 2 are gambles based on your group but its not worth it compared to other names)
The guys who set up Luminis were ex greenhill-caliburn, which was notorious for the nickname 'cali-burnout'. Believe there was quite an exodus recently as an ex-Luminis guy set up a new boutique called Stanton road partners and ended up taking quite a few Luminis guys with them.
Re: your point on avoiding CS and BAML, what do you mean by it being a gamble based on groups? are you inferring that some groups are worse than others there culture and hours wise?
Re CS and BAML, culture/hours is heavily dependant on your group, as opposed to Luminis/Jeff which may have poor culture / bad hours across the board. I.e. Infra and FIG at BAML may be worse than REGL and LevFin
Yeah I've heard the same about Caliburn haha!
Agree Stanton Road is part of it but my comments are in relation to an incident more recently, think around Nov / Dec where a bunch of juniors left
BAML - think the comments above cover it well. And it's not just from people who aren't as aware about IB work culture, have heard the exact same things from friends at other BBs so it holds some more weight. Most Aussie BBs do well and as a result have you working hard - it's a bit more tolerable having a decent-to-good work culture. Have heard this is just not the case at BAML so it doesn't sound very sustainable no matter what the sweats will say. There could be decent groups within the firm that are a bit more relaxed but I'm not too around the details, maybe someone else can comment
CS - Archegos and Greensill really did a number on them and it's led to some shockwaves in IBD. Their DCM / LevFin business, top of the street for pretty much the entire post GFC period, has been smashed because head office is placing a lot of restrictions on what they can / can't do. Doesn't help either that the LF MD left so the business is struggling a bit. I don't have DCM league tables on hand so I could be wrong - this is just what I've heard from some close to the firm and makes logical sense. On M&A / ECM, they're on some of those blue-chip deals within different coverage groups but it's very spotty - the firm on a whole looks decent in M&A and ECM but within sector teams I don't know how strong the experience would be. Could be a stronger opp if they took the MS approach of going Generalist instead of coverage teams? Obviously this is temporary and I think they will bounce back in due course
from anecdotal evidence,
Jefferies: tough environment and average senior culture, one of the sweatiest houses for juniors, good infra deals
UBS: very long hrs in infra, unsure about the other teams. Rebuilt most of their groups since the Jarden/BJ wave
MS: hours depend on teams, heard RE can be decent while TMT is rough (probably similar across most banks)
BofA: one of the best FIG teams on the st with hours that are notoriously challenging (also NR and infra). To add to the above comments: apparently lots of pitching in other coverage teams because they like to cast wide nets that end up driving up hrs (sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't). Culture is very team dependent
Gresham: slow year in 2020 with good lifestyle but they're killing it this year so can't imagine the analysts not getting overwhelmed esp with so many infra and NR mandates
Unrelated but this seems to have become a general Aussie IB thread - does anyone else see Barrenjoey as becoming the top / near-top bank in the market?
Initially thought it was a bit cringe / try-hard when they came out saying they are trying to disrupt etc and doing things like publishing their staff handbook online. But thinking through it a bit more, I genuinely think they have a path to the clear top. Other top BBs can only do so much to push against this - its not like they are going to reverse-poach for some time, so the only way they can get ahead is by winning more work. Australia is already so over-banked as it is so that would be pretty difficult.
The value prop every BB will say is that they are more "international" - I think this messaging works to poach juniors who want to move to NYC / London, but see it being less important for seniors who are the ones that drive deal flow. I agree offshore teams can help in certain cases, but I struggle to see this as being the point of difference that will help them gain / maintain market share.
And, there's no ignoring what they are working on at the moment. Admittedly nothing has closed yet but I am hard pressed to find a better bank purely from current mandates (aside from GS). This is also very relevant within Infra, which I feel really makes or breaks a bank in Australia. They have basically scooped up almost every infra mandate currently public - and this is extending to other areas too
While there is a lot of uncertainty I could definitely see them growing into something like Macquarie or UBS/GS' rise to the top here. Biggest risk is probably their senior bankers - they drive all their deals so its important that they stay with the firm. That being said I doubt they would be leaving anytime soon - doesn't make any sense given they are definitely in it to make bigger $$ while growing the organisation.
Comments can also be echoed to Jarden - while relatively less talked about in this context I think they are playing with a similar hand
A lotta astroturfing from the anonymous posters haha - I really see no reason why someone should be anonymous unless the comment is easily traceable, which shouldn't be in your case since you're discussing general trends
Having said that, I do agree with you. I don't even think the international card is very relevant, because within finance, I strongly believe firms recruit off experience. If you get to work on all the landmark deals at a local Australian bank, you can easily recruit for the billion of banks in the larger financial cities (especially boutique firms which don't have a presence here e.g., CVP or something).
At that stage, you gotta ask yourself "do i want to spend 60k on rent a year + all the bullshit that occurs in other cities (crime etc.) to work on the next Facebook IPO"
Haha fair enough, I generally prefer to keep anonymous because the sum of my comments across this site would identify me to someone overly dedicated, and would prefer to keep the work-related commentary separate from myself
Agree and disagree with your comments because I think it would be an awesome experience working in a large financial city, and the job gives you one of the easiest pathways to make the move while retaining an amazing paycheque. Your points on crime / COL are probably what makes the international stint short-lived for most - Australia's a great place to live in and appreciation of the fact grows when you live elsewhere
they have closed at least one IPO i know of
I think Jarden is much weaker vs BJ and at best BAML/CS level. The number of bankers at Jarden will be significantly less vs BJ.
Sure BJs might be getting lot of deals but this is their first yr of proper IBD work. I can see them becoming like Mac but its too early to tell. You never know if senior bankers are gonna stick around or retire. I think the most attractive thing about BJs (correct me if I'm wrong) for a senior banker is 1) the stock comp with large upside and 2) better economics vs working at a global bank where large % of fees are taken by the bank. If say BJs start underperforming or key person retired- it can seriously impact upside of stock comp.
Almost everyone told me to go overseas for few years - it can be amazing not just career wise / optionality but for personal growth / discovery as well. I've chose to work at a top US BB over Macq because you get great deal exp at both places, wanted to work on international deals and go overseas at some point + global branding never hurts. It defs isn't macq or bust and I think lot of junior bankers will choose branding/international experience vs marginally better deal exp esp since Aussie market is so much smaller PE/VC/CorpDev looks at most candidates across major BBs
I can think of a lot of other reasons why senior bankers like BJs
Agree with above comment, Jarden will likely be a tier 3 shop overall but tier 1 in ECM. They have the best ECM bankers in Australia (Sarah Rennie and Robbie Vanderzeil) and have been very successful in landing recent IPO mandates (e.g. SciGames, Songtradr). However, I have strong doubts about their coverage teams as most of their MDs have been poached from overseas and have no pre-existing relationships in Australia, which is a recipe that very rarely works in Australia.
Jarden NZ is a retail broker/wealth platform with a corporate finance team (similar to Wilsons or Ord Minnet here)
IMO thy need to avoid that trap here in Aus.
I've heard a lot of mixed messages as well but consensus seems (will leave a few cents of my perspective on the industry too)
BJ being heavily hyped culture-wise from the outside but yes, deal flow is strong. Definitely as Anon said, they grabbed good basket of infra deals. Heard it described to me from a new joiner as much like any bank's culture, just a very polished PR megaphone. The Principal versus Partner model creates an illusion of "status" for a lot of the junior guys (but for middle guys it's frustrating as Partner track is hard to see). As to receiving equity, some wild fibs of amount but generally, will be a long long hold (so unless you're there for the IPO in 5 or more years, it's meaningless). Cash pay, yes, very great. BJ definitely has an attractive pool of senior talent (much to the dismay of UBS and BBs being gutted) so that will serve them extremely well.
Jarden is similarly placed if you do a bit of digging, they're just playing the low key card. Already grabbed landmark consumer + industrials M&A mandates (e.g. Endeavour) and as mentioned by someone, high profile ECM mandates. Heard culture is fantastic for development and actually an attempt to be different. Will have to see if they sustain the momentum but already Top 10 on YTD league ladders across both M&A and ECM. Also top of the street pay from sources. As to having overseas seniors or ECM focused, that's a half truth. While their team profile is definitely much more diverse than a usual bulge, can't forget who their heads are ex-Chairmans and Co-Heads - Vanderzeil, Rennie, Allen among others from both M&A and ECM. Their proteges have also followed suit.
Conclusion imo is that these are both great full-service local IBs with huge potential (they are not Luminis which barged onto the scene and claimed all sorts or other pretentious boutiques that oversell themselves without backing) who will compete on their own merits. Tier 1 / Tier 3 designation? so what - these are great successful people trying to do something different and their putting money where their mouth is to date. Having been in IB for a few years now, I've seen all sorts of things from tiny boutiques to the bulges and from my view, these two are really pulling their weight and causing a change in the market. They are truly Top Tier in their own ways and are NOT boutiques by any means. For those looking around, if you get into either of these 2 newbies in Aus and assuming things go well, you're probably in a for a fun ride in their growth. If I were looking to make a move / continue my IB journey, wouldn't complain at all if received either as an option (but for me those days have past!)
Just remember people, join the team for the leaders and work you enjoy, it's a hard job already (boutique to bulge). Don't just pick a shop for its brand, make sure you know the team, the service offerings, where it can lead you, what responsibilities you'll get. Cause after all, wouldn't it suck if you ended up in NatRes coverage team to hate the sector but be churning out hardcore NPV models and gritty resources sector analysis even if it was at Goldman? Or go to an ECM product team at a good global bulge only to realise you've spent years doing way too much operational and procedural work (ofc roadshows are fun for a bit) to allow much sector learning or real deal depth (and now stuck with very limited exit options!) (like myself haha - not sad but just a reality)
Found the above comment from @aeroturf to be interesting but a few things to note based on various sources:
1. Endeavour was not an M&A deal - it was a spinoff and on behalf of Woolworths so Jarden were always grabbing that mandate given Allen's long-term relationship with them. They have also been widely panned across the street on their Seven Group defence against Boral.
2. All newer banks offer 'top of the street pay' - how else are you going to attract bankers to a riskier venture and less reputable brand. Furthermore, BJ's pay appears outrageously high (even when ignoring equity), which is why it is talked up so frequently versus Jarden.
3. Their M&A/Coverage side appears to be a one-man team with Allen based on employees there that I know - he appears to have driven all mandates bar PARF and AMP. This may result in key person risk if they do not make any additional notable hires on this side of the business.
4. Their reliance on Nomura's balance sheet is also a key long-term risk - these strategic alliances have historically been very fickle (just need to look at how Jarden's alliance with CS quickly ended). It would arguably be in Nomura's interest to end it if they ever properly buildout their presence in Australia. In comparison, BJ's alliance with Barclays is much stronger given Barclay's ownership interest, board representation and the transfer of their remaining non-dcm bankers to BJ.
I am not trying to attack Jarden and all banks admittedly have their issues as shown by the other comments in this forum. Rather just trying to correct the grass is greener attitude that perpetuates regarding these new banks.
Any info on other boutiques in Sydney like Record Point, Blackpeak, Allunga,etc. ?
Heard RP base < 100k and pretty sweaty. The latter two doesn't hire grads and usually hires interns for $/hr basis that's significantly under FT banking pay
lmao at least they pay, interned for a few shops in Syd when I was in Uni and never got paid
Know of some friends who were / are at RP and Blackpeak. Think RP has an intern program that sometimes convert them to part-time / grad.
Both are great places to intern at. Been told the work and culture at Blackpeak are awesome.
Nice, my days of gunning for sellside roles have passed but can pass this info to other alumni in my uni who set their eyes on Syd IB
90% of Blackpeak's work seems to be doing those "Australian SaaS Market Overview - January" slide decks to post on Linkedin
Most of this info is (lighthearted) anecdotes from 2-3 years ago.
Allier - Half the people working their are hardo interns willing to do anything to put "Investment Banking Intern" on their LinkedIn. Analysts/Assocs consistently mention that the place is "in association with" William Blair or Baird or whatever the fuck. Cool!
BlackPeak - Smaller team, TMT focussed. Friend spent many hours building monthly industry research slide decks to be sent as marketing materialfor some reason.
Record Point - Everyone thinks this place is an elite shop because they consistently run an advertised internship program. If not for that they may well be unknown.
Allunga - No clue, had to google it
any info on pay at these places?
Any info on the other boutiques? Greenstone, Miles Advisory, Adastra (Investec's new shop)?
Recruiters seem to be recruiting quite heavily for these places at the moment.
RP recently had a junior staff exodus.
Slightly off topic but do any Aussie locals have insight into how difficult it would be for an American to lateral to a bank in AUS with a couple years experience?
Can't speak for lateraling to another bank, but I imagine transferring within the same bank would be very easy.
.
Adding onto this, but in reverse, is it easy for Australian to lateral over to a different bank in US? have seen it done quite a bit recently
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