Hi Guys, I am currently an analyst at a HK BB, happy to answer questions if anyone wants to do IB in HK. Ask me anything.
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Hi, thanks for doing this. As an incoming analyst, I am generally curious about the exit after IB in HK. Some questions may sound dumb, so plz bear with me on this.
Sorry bombing you with this long list of questions, but I'd really appreciate any lights shed on them. Cheers!
1. can start prepping as soon as you start your job. HH will reach out to you like 3-5 every week.
2. 80/20 split of mainland / HK, or something like that. Steeper now because a lot of people wanna to go home
3. pretty hard. Stars have to align even when there is headcount
4. MBA associates are not as common as US. Not required for PE.
Thanks! One follow up question if you don’t mind - will top MBA be an exit for HK bankers? Are there lots of juniors choose to enroll MBA after their first 2-3 years?
Following up on q3. How hard is it to do the reverse (moving from NYC to HK)?
Is chinese language skills an absolute must?
Yes. Native level mandarin is pretty much a hard requirement with BBs as most of your deals would be HK IPOs of mainland Co (some industry teams can be less IPO heavy, but still mandarin is a hard req). About 80% pitchbooks I did was in mandarin too. I have seen pretty qualified candidates being turned away in superdays due to not passing an on-site Chinese test. (i.e. translating a news paragraph)
How about Mandarin requirement with buyside funds based in HK?
I can speak Mandarin, but can't write unfortunately.
Do you happen to know if Mandarin is also a hard requirement for regional MMs? E.g. Societe Generale, BNP, Natixis etc.
How are exits at your previous BB team?
Overall exits are good. People generally get what they want.
Do you have any insight into pay after exiting to PE (international) from IBD for someone with 2 years experience? Does one typically take a paycut for base?
I have seen cut, match and bump. Depends on what kind of funds and where.
Are hours still brutal in HK?
It is getting better
How many analysts have family who are in government/business etc.
not many at all. Fewer than you think.
Hi! Thanks so much for the post. I’m an incoming IBD SA in a Tier 2 BB in HK. However, I did not have direct ibd exposure before (though hv solid understanding in mkts and valuation).
Questions from me:
1) what are the tasks (including final project) that IBD intern typically do at your bank and the rough estimate of time % spent on these tasks.
2) what kinds of intern would impress you and the most? What key qualities would you look into when deciding a return offer or not?
3) tips for pre-internship preparation. What skills/knowledge you wish you could have developed before your first IB job?
4) tips for networking during internship. Is it very important for networking in HK BB?
Hi! Thanks so much for the post. I’m an incoming IBD SA in a Tier 2 BB in HK. However, I did not have direct ibd exposure before (though hv solid understanding in mkts and valuation).
Questions from me:
1) what are the tasks (including final project) that IBD intern typically do at your bank and the rough estimate of time % spent on these tasks.
2) what kinds of intern would impress you and the most? What key qualities would you look into when deciding a return offer or not?
3) tips for pre-internship preparation. What skills/knowledge you wish you could have developed before your first IB job?
4) any tips for networking during internship. Is it very important for networking in HK BB?
1. could not touch live IPO. can be anything. debt, M&A pitch, IPO pitch, housekeeping. content and team depends on the current dealflow. so no fixed %. but you will mostly spend time on ppt, as interns cannot do much with excel
2. quick and resourceful. Quick means quick to pick up and learn. If i teach something, they can get it up and running like asap. Attitude and good communication is key, everything else can be taught later.
3. pre internship just please get quick with MS office. esp ppt. That is basically it. Not much knowledge wise pre IB. For HK IB, maybe read some books on HK listing rules / procedures and study up the Paper exams for HKSE so you save some time.
4. Quite important for your personal development. Just do it and message a lot of people, ask around, follow up. Have a list of clear talking point and have an idea of what you want to get out of it. A lot of people are quite lost during networking I feel like
Same concern as the 2nd & 3rd point. I'm lucky enough to get HK SA offer from top 3, but previously has no ib exposure (done some consulting and VC), only prepared technicals by some courses and luckily passed the interview. Recently when I tried to pursue one off-cycle experience of one EB (Lazard/Rothschild...), They rejected me and gave feedback that I was too slow to respond to the technical questions (they tested really thoroughly even has M&A accretion and dilution questions, which is so hard for me as a non-finance student).
So now I end up interning in a LMM boutique (Lincoln/Blair) in China, For the first week, I only touched on research and translation work.
Now really panicking about how to fix up and pick up more skills and knowledge needed to get an FT through this summer. Every time thinking about other competitors from US Ivy or Tsinghua/Peking Master in Finance, while my school is the weaker one among HK top 3, I just have the saddest feeling. and if taking financial courses or reading books, would you please recommend some?
Anyways thanks a lot in advance. Your other replies really help many other problems!
How can international students position themselves for IBD positions in HK? SEA and other non-China coverage teams are still big here?
Very rare. I do not recommend pursuing HK IBD as a main strategy for breaking into IB if you don't speak+write near native/native level mandarin. Even internal transfers now are difficult for insiders who do not speak the language. Most deals 100% requires mandarin capability, incl DCM ECM. Some groups like M&A and Oil & Gas may not use Chinese as much, but people on the job are basically bilingual. Unless you got people vouch for you inside, might not pass resume screen?
You can do a quick search on LinkedIn to corroborate above point. Filter HK BB and just look at the last names, great majority mainland/HK/TW background.
You might consider Aus/LDN/SG if your school name is good? Not too sure about this route though. Another route is to work at your home country, but seats can be also very limited. Many banks got offices in KR/JP etc.
Thanks for the thread. I'm currently working in CB at a US BB (grouped with IB) and hoping to get an APAC posting at some point in my career, I've been to HK a few times and love it but leaning more towards Singapore mainly for the political climate but also because being a white guy who speaks conversational but far from fluent Mandarin is a plus in Singapore (can BS with Mandarin speakers to build guanxi but won't be expected to do business in it) and sounds like a dealbreaker in HK.
So even if , someone speaks fluent mandarin and is a citizen of some other SEA countries but not HK/C/TWN, would that still be a problem
Many thanks for the Q&A!
1) What's your impression of the general tiers / ranking among BBs in HK?
2) Have you seen any push from BBs to move or hire bankers more-so for onshore JVs instead of in HK?
3) What's your view on the hiring market for junior IBD laterals this year? Is it still expected to be as hot as prior year come bonus season?
4) With the latest changes in junior comp in the U.S., has that reflected in the HK IB market and would you know if it's generally the same or differs among BBs? Thank you
1. answered to another comment in the thread
2. yes, answered to another comment in the thread. Also some bloomberg article explained this point really well. This is all public info.
3. still pretty hot, a lot of attrition across the board. COVID is wearing a lot of people down, since they want to go home to mainland? just a guess. I am guessing it is hotter than 2020 and cooler than 2021. 2021 is a catch up on capacity to prepare for the homecoming delisting-relisting from US to HK.
4. yes, global changes. some BBs have some catching up to do, but they will match eventually. Really not a deciding factor for juniors. I do not recommend people think too far on pay comparison across banks. It is all in the same ball park. It won't be like a Wells vs. Centerview type of gap in the US lol.
Thanks for doing this! I want to ask several questions:
1. How's the appetite for post-MBA associate wanting to pivot back to HK from NYC? You mentioned it is easier from NYC to HK but not the other way around, but I also wonder about the difficulties to make the transition either for internal mobility or jump to another bank.
2. Deal type: my experience in coverage group thus far is to 1. pitch advisory or financing ideas; 2. if it's mandated, then work with the respective product teams to execute. Is it the same in HK? What deal types have you seen mostly? Financing as Mainland companies are looking for capital?
3. I've heard there are a lot more "random" pitching as HK MDs are casting a wide net to a lot of companies, vs. NYC MDs typically have built some relationships with their clients so the pitches in the U.S. are more targeted / tailored for the individual company. What's your experience so far and how that difference (if any) impacts the junior's job?
4. I've also heard the pitch/job is "less technical" in HK than that in the U.S., but I don't think my coverage job in the U.S. is that technical at all as most LBOs are done by LevFin or M&A and we just handle industry-specific merger model, which doesn't happen often. Given this perception that US bankers have "better technical skills", should I train up my modeling to meet that?
5. A lot of job postings in HK banking are in groups different from mine thus I really don't have any particular industry insight or product knowledge to carry over if I do move cross-regionally. It seems that I can only blindly apply to any job postings and then start prepping for those groups that invite me for interviews. What would you suggest to do?
6. How about the hours? You mentioned previously that it is getting better - what's considered "better"? For reference, in my group, we generally work Mon-Thu (10-1), Fri (10-7), Sun (12 to whatever you have on hand). That's very good in my opinion when I talk to my peers across the street. Want to gauge your data points and also see if it is industry-specific. For example, if TMT has been hot in Asia (or at least used to be before the crackdown), would TMT bankers be crushed every night vs. FIG or REGL guys are chiling?
7. When do you suggest to make the move? Associate 1 vs. 3? Does it even make a difference?
8. Tiers of the bank? I think someone else asked this but from your experience, can you elaborate the tiers of the bank with strong products/verticals and to the extent if possible, the comps (if any is above or below the street).
Thanks again for doing this.
1. appetite is always there for a lot of people's personal reasons. But the hurdle is h1b for both internal and cross-bank. H1b, if you know the old process, was pure luck. Not sure about the new process.
2. same. majority for HK IPO. Very rarely M&A for mainland. DCM sometimes but decreased level of activity due to China real estate situation currently.
3. MDs have their styles, i have worked with both kinds of MDs. I would say it can be 50/50. Some MDs have very strong relationships, the pitch is just a show. Easier to work under an MD with relationships for sure.
4. whatever modeling skill you have is probably already enough for HK. Don't worry. It is indeed less technical. I don't think people use a lot of brain cells for pitches
5. your plan is solid. I would focus on execution experience and stories. also if you can, network before the interviews.
6. Most groups are crushed every day, regardless of weekends (your saturdays are not safe), regardless of public holidays. you can take the hours of sweaty US shops as a norm, prepare for the worst. However, it is quite bank dependent. I would not talk specifically on this, i suggest you reach out to people in various banks in private.
7. I personally think the earlier the better, because i look at the time cost of not being in a career that you want to pursue long term. Time is the most expensive resource.
8. Very similar to US for BB. for product groups, I suggest you get an offer first, then ask around to see if it is solid. or, if you have dealogic, you can run the fee and take a look. Personally i think it matters more to work under a great MD than to work in a group making a lot of fee. Again, using your limited time in banking to learn from the best people should be the focus, more so than money/group prestige.
pay wise, I personally think HK pay beats US mostly, simply due to lower tax, but US sees higher bonuses more often. Otherwise pre-tax pretty in line with each other.
Would you foresee the major market in HK would be IPO, loans?
What is your view on M&A? I noticed that the deals increased since last year
What is your view on the secondary market in HK?
These aren't really questions for IBD analysts to answer. Many BBG/FT articles can give better insights. Hope below helps.
1. in 2022 i'm guessing mostly IPO with homecoming flow, a lot of article on this. Mega deals wane as most fitting unicorn and above have gone public.
2. MnA activity within mainland has been low, cross border has gone cold since 2015 ish due to macro and china anti-trust.
3. as an IBD analyst, you don't get to work on secondary market much, other than take private/buyback. Thus, no view.
Could you share the comps this year? I've heard that HK bonus is a tier below the U.S. but wasn't sure how much difference is it. For example, is bonus normally 6-9 months (50-75%) in the HK?
Hi Does CFA level 1 help to get a HK IBD summer internship? How should we better prepare ourselves in the next few months if we are applying this fall?
Thank you~
CFAs don't really help much. Hard skill wise, please read all the rosenbaum & pearl stuff, get good at accounting, follow deals and read some prospectus (HK prospectus). Soft skill wise, hone your story, keep networking, prepare question answers.
Thank you so much for your answer! It has been very helpful!
Thank you so much for your answer!
Could you elaborate on how good we need to be at accounting? Will passing Chinese CPA be helpful if we want to get into HK IBD? as most deals are based in mainland China? Or should we pursue ACCA? the more international qualification?
Also, would you mind sharing your application timeline?
Thanks in advance!
Is HK MF PE recruiting as structured as it is in the US (starts right after college and chances diminish significantly after the first cycle)? If it is different, what are the main differences? Thank you so much!
nope not structured. Seats are a lot fewer. better to have headhunters and form your own network.
Do people speak Mandarin / Cantonese / English in the office? Is Cantonese a must for HK BB?
please read my other answers in this thread, also touched on language. No, Cantonese is not a must, actually you don't get to use it at all. So far i have used 0% cantonese. I don't even understand Cantonese
Depends on group / bank. In some rare cases Cantonese could come in handy.
In terms of Real Estate coverage, as the CFO of most China real estate developers are HKers (historical reasons), almost all bankers in the real estate group can speak fluent Cantonese.
Cantonese are also spoken predominantly (internally) in the teams which HK people are a majority. ( e.g. 30% ~ 40% of HSBC's bankers are Cantonese speakers)
.
on par with their rep in US? didn't hear anything special
I understand that this might not be in your area of expertise (IBD), but are there any chance you’re familiar with BlackRock at all? From comp to group to exposure? I’ll be going for a SA stint there and there is not a lot of info on WSO or the internet. Anything would be appreciated!
Please just reach out to BlackRock people on linkedin. With the right wording, they will be willing to help.
Hi thanks a lot for this thread, I saw you mentioned that the hours have been a lot better? Could you be more specific into hours please?
from 100+ to 80-90? really depends on bank, group, team, deal. Getting better is just a general feeling. Not quantitative.
Thanks for doing this.
- Who are the top FIG banks in HK?
- Would you recommend someone working in SG to go to HK?
- How is UBS perceived in HK? saw that its among the top in Asia but not in US
Not OP, but can chime in a bit.
1. HSBC FIG is pretty solid. FIG deal flow is not really strong right now.
2. as you are seeing in some recent news, banks are moving staff to sg.... Bloomberg wrote about it this or last week.
3. UBS is nice!! pay bumped and nicer WLB. I honestly don't care too much about perception.
Thanks for the reply. hoping you can chime in top FIG banks ranking too (if you are aware, if not please ignore thanks)
GS is #1 in FIG, then MS, and then JPM
SG to HK really depends on what you want. SG culture is much more hard-working and therefore stressful vs HK. Greater China IBD is probably the least involutive of the major East Asian markets (Japan, Korea, Singapore) given large markets and the type of people traditionally funneled into IB (connection based versus high-performing middle class professionals). However, with current geopolitics HK is riskier vs SG in terms of job safety. That being said, there are two main risks I feel a lot of ppl ignore when looking at SG: 1. SEA clients don't pay (even vs. Chinese clients who are less willing to pay compared to developed markets) and 2. SG / SEA are also extremely reliant on China in terms of both physical trade and funding so any China risk that you have with HK is also meaningful to SEA.
FIG in HK: GS >= MS >>> JPM. All other FIG teams don't get on strategic situations (ipo / M&A / large block deals) with any regularity and are glorified DCM coverage basically.
what’s the EB presence like in HK?
also, any interesting RX shops? Have seen HL and PJT do large chinese RX
PJT very small shop, care a lot about your elite background.
HL RX wins most of the mandates in HK + Mainland. Total sweatshop, pay really well.
Lazard small office. People are tight, just like the Lazard prototype elsewhere. Deal flow not good as HL.
Totally agreed.
HL & Admiralty Harbour get the most RX deals in Hong Kong & PRC. HL pays sweet however tough hours, therefore a high turnover rate.
I get confused with PJT. PJT hasn't received any RX deals in Hong & PRC. However, they start to recruit elite backgrounds & exps in NY & LN. They have no connections in the market but with a bird eye attitude.
Lazard HK would mostly focus on their AM business.
not familiar, just know seats are very few. Sweatier than most BB.
HL is doing evergrande i think lol, guess that makes the exposure nice?
yeh and oaktree is on the creditor side - seems to be some fireworks there i wonder who is advising them
How is HSBC perceived in HK relative to other banks?
Weaker than BB stronger than Chinese banks?
HSBC is really nice if you want to stay in banking. Good pay and hours.
FIG and TMT are both solid groups.
Disagree with the OP. HSBC's deal flow is not better than most Chinese banks, actually worse.
In terms of IPO deal flow, which accounts for 90%-95% of activities in China Mainland, it's CICC >(sometimes) GS = MS > CITICS > (slightly) Haitong/Huatai/JPM/BAML/Citi all that.
HSBC actually doesn't even get on the top 10 league table. However, it does pay well than most Chinese banks, and the hours are reasonable.
Does the ranking of the deal flow based on HK or mainland China?
I'm prospect SA in JPM for the upcoming summer. Can you give some rough overview of JPM HK? which group is considered top?
Take a look at recent big HK IPOs with JPM as lead left sponsor. Again, i think in today's climate, good to be in Industrial (mobility in JPM), Natural Resources, Consumer, M&A. TMT depends on how you see the regulation will go. You really don't need to be in a strongest group, but you will fare better if you pick something you like with good bosses.
Thanks for sharing! Can you elaborate on regulations with regards to TMT industry?
Thanks for doing this!
- How is BarCap perceived in HK? Exit ops?
- Any general tips for preparing PE interviews? And are there any good habits to have during analyst years to better prepare for PE interviews?
Thanks again!
-Barc is not that strong. Good money though. Still more respected than Chinese banks but probably below UBS/CS. Don't worry too much, you probably will get poached by other BBs when you are at Barclays, not hard to move at all.
-It is too big a topic. But one thing i want to mention is to know your deals inside out. Memorize the model, rationale, execution, positioning, bigger picture.
What is the lateral market like in HK? Do you see people with non-IB experience (PE FoF, Big Four TAS etc.) lateral into BB IB?
I have seen those, but it is far and few. One of my asso transferred from outside industry.
intra-IB lateral is hot and easy. But breaking in IB remains hard due to the high competition.
What's your take on the Chinese IBs? CICC/Haitong/Guotai - is experience at these valuable prior to a move to a western bb? Thanks!
valuable exp. Not as respected but much better than other chinese peers. easy to lateral to BB if hk office. some pays very very well. Have heard 30months+ worth of bonus for some years. Have heard of some about some horrible culture stuff.
CICC pays crazy.
Haitong and Guotai don't pay very well, even after the secretive pay bump last year. Guotai pays better than Haitong.
Deal flow wise, Haitong is better than GTJA.
Experience is okay. Pay much lower than BBs though.
Thanks for doing this! Curious to know:
- Who are the top FSG banks in HK? Is it tough to get into these groups during group placement? People seem to value FSG more in the US, perhaps for PE recruiting...
- How is Citi perceived in HK? Think they're getting a lot of sticks lately for poor bonus payouts, but I'd imagine their presence in Asia/HK might actually be larger than some of other BBs
1. no idea. Don't think it is significant for PE stuff. as long as you have solid deals and good name, all PEs would take a look at u.
2. low bonus. A lot of hands, so hours are not too bad. Pretty active in deals. Decent culture i heard.
How is BAML perceived in HK and Asia (SG) in general? How's their bonus and culture ranked among their peers?
Not sure about sg. Heard from friends the name is pretty good in some sectors. Had some big deals in 20/21, not sure about 22. (2022 everyone is having a dry spell).
Thanks for doing this, here is my question:
How would you comment on differences between bb in HK and mainland China? Deal flow, deal type, junior analyst headcount, and etc.
they are basically not the same job due to how CSRC and HK SFC look at IPOs. Def more hc in mainland.
Hey HKIBthrowaway. Thanks a ton for doing this. I think what you are doing is a huge contribution to the community given the limited info on HK ibd placement on WSO.
My story is a bit rough one. Though I have been aspiring to get into investment banking in HK ever since my early days as an undergrad, it's really been a bumpy ride for me. I graduated from a solid finance program at one of the top-three universities in HK (HKU, HKUST, CUHK), but didn't manage to go for the "BB summer internship - return offer" route as most of my peers did. But I did manage to get my hands on a few banking internships with respectable brand names, including two top-notch Chinese investment banks (think CITIC Securities, CICC, China Securities, etc.), two elite boutiques (think Evercore, Moelis, Lazard, Houlihan), a European bank with a solid ibd arm and a buy-side internship. But even with the names and experiences, I didn't have any luck on landing full-time offers. The financial institutions I interned at did not have a structured "intern - full-time" recruitment pipeline and even though I somehow landed a full-time gig at a local financial advisory firm, I got headcount-frozen due to the market slump (it was during the height of the COVID pandemic). Unfortunately, as I lost my identity as a fresh grad and my visa getting expired, I found it increasingly difficult to get back on track yet the full-time recruitment hasn't gone anywhere.
Now things are getting a bit desperate for me, so I am thinking about taking a break and doing a master's program in the UK or US. Fall 2022 admissions is much fiercer than the admissions in the past two years. No good luck yet. So far I have got an offer from KCL but I doubt if that is ever gonna help on my job hunting in ibd (KCL is not prestigious enough in HK ibd I assume). And oh yeah, a lot of those master's programs are one-year in duration so it's gonna be almost impossible to go for the regular recruitment cycle.
I would appreciate it so much if I could have your advice on my situation. Is my "go-for-master's" route a feasible solution? If so, what uni could give me another chance to break into ibd? Any other thoughts are cordially welcome. Thanks a lot.
Masters route is smart. KCL is a good name but not super strong vs other schools. Overall for masters, US MFE is often seen in HK. 2yr masters in US, intern, and FT is very very common in HK BB IBD. maybe half of a class is like that. If you don't have anything better than KCL, then just do KCL and network your heart out with everyone in HK while you are still in HK. make your contacts, be well prepared to kill the technicals, and get internship interviews through ur contacts.
The above route still has a high chance to fail considering how bad the market is rn in HK (lowest level of activity since GFC per an FT article today). Banks are looking to downsize, and HK will pick the kids that are most well connected AND went to the best schools. In the case that you don't make it to IB in HK, good to think what you might want to do (can try to break into IB in london? maybe corp banking? be open to ECM/DCM? try other sub-sectors of finance? go to corporations?)
Mentally speaking, don't panic or worry too much and try to be flexible.
Thanks a lot for the advice and insights. Really inspirational.
Yeah I do agree that the competitive edge that I have right now is the established network within HK ibd (got loads of friends, classmates and alumni working in the industry). But the downside is that, since I have graduated for almost two years, by the time I re-apply for the summer internships my classmates from the school days would actually be at associate or even VP level. Kind of awkward isn't it?
Not sure if the primary capital markets in APAC is going to get any better for the next 2/3 years. But if I fail my plan A again and instead work at some Chinese investment banks/securities firms in the Mainland, what's the possibility to jump ship to a BB in HK through lateral hiring? Heard that it's almost impossible to get visa sponsorship unless for really senior positions (e.g. ED/MD-level). If so, maybe I should prioritize location over job function in this case? Thanks a lot in advance. :)
What masters have you commonly seen from the US? Also, does anyone try for a Masters at the local schools (HKU, HKUST, CUHK)? If so, in your opinion, is it a successful route?
Appreciate you doing this.
I hope my reply didn't come too late.
I have done a lot of research on this topic. I would not recommend pursuing a one-year master's degree as it may be detrimental to your application and a waste of money. I would recommend you to pursue a fully funded PhD at a target school in the US/UK, but before that you must work as a research assistant for a reputed professor in Hong Kong or a top target school abroad for a year. I know two international graduates who got their bachelor's degrees from the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology and the Chinese University of Hong Kong, and both obtained their PhD offers from Stanford University through the research assistant route. One of them did research in the States and the other completed it at the CUHK. Unfortunately all Hong Kong universities are not well known to Americans, so they will need a letter of recommendation from an influential professor in the U.S. or some publications in major journals to stand out.
Hi OP, thanks for doing this. Have seen people's ideas on various European BB in HK in this thread, except Deutsche. What are your thoughts on it?
not OP but have ex-colleagues who joined and gave positive feedback about the team, pay is below US BB. They rarely participate in HK IPO and was generating fees on US listing (Slow business as Chinese regulatory outlook remain unclear) and M&A. Be ready for hundred page internal memo grind work but that's everywhere else anyway.
DB basically is gone. CS and UBS are pretty nice. BNP also nice.
Hi HKIBthrowaway, thanks so much for doing this. I am a Expat High Schooler in HK thoroughly in IBD - and wondering where i should break into. I speak conversational chinese, and have been accepted to Edinburgh Univerist / KCL / St Andewss for Financial Economics, and Ivey Buisness School in Canada. If I want IBD, do you think these universities are good enough in HK? I fear the UK ones are not good enough for London, so I’m thinking of trying the classic FILTH. however, would u think i’d have better luck In Canada, as this is the best target school there? And I could land an EB and lateral to NYC? Would love to hear your thoughts on this, very stressed and have to make a Uni choice soon.
Not OP, but currently an American who grew-up-in-Canada undergrad in the UK at a respected semi target (think Edinburgh, Durham, Bristol).
Definitely possible to break in from those schools into London IB, however if you think you can re apply and get into Oxbridge/LSE then maybe its worth it both for brand name domestically and internationally. If you're prepared and have initiative in regard to gaining experience, you should be able to find a spot in London from one of those schools. Take a look at alumni from all 3 and you'll see what I mean. Worst case scenario you do a masters at a target which is should put you in the best spot you're gonna be (for London IB).
Also, Ivey is still the top option in Canada for anything finance related (maybe excluding Waterloo for quantitative roles), followed almost equally by Queens and then McGill.
Finding an IB spot in Toronto should be straight forward if you're prepared and have good grades (3.7+). Although some of the super elite opportunities to the US are still there, the headcount of Ivey kids going direct to NY/SF/LA has been reduced in the last 3-4 years, mostly due to the visa sponsorship situation at most banks. Ivey's relationship still exists in some places, and doesn't in others. Not to say it doesn't still happen, but instead of sending 45-60 kids to the states each year there might be only 20-25.
All in all, Ivey is still a great option if you're trying for Toronto IB, but I wouldn't but too much trust into it as a viable pathway to the states.
Also, I have seen native mandarin speaking kids from Ivey go direct to HK IB at both BB/Chinese banks, but besides that i'm not too sure and i'm sure OP can provide more value in that regard than I can.
Hi there. Just wondering what the recruitment cycle looks like for IBD jobs in London with a Master's program? Does it follow the common "summer internship-return offer-full time" mode? If so, how is it possible to apply for a summer internship with a one-year postgraduate program with such a fast pace? Would much appreciate your insights.
have seen people in hk from KCL and Ivey i think. Not familiar with the canada scene. If you are stressed about school, then just transfer soph year to target/semi target. Don't think u should be fixated on IB. You can also explore other careers that might interest u. No need to silo urself.
How's bonus looking like in HK? Trying to compare to SG.
varies hugely bank to bank in both sg and hk. varies hugely by year too. not really answerable by city.
Thanks so much for the post!
Can you please comment on BB DCM in HK?
Tier ranking/exit ops/hours/types of deals each bank specialised or mainly work on.
if you look at dealogic/bbg, i think u can see usd-denominated China bonds issuance have dramatically slowed, taking a hit since evergrande. Not sure where the future is for DCM in hk tbh. Depending on how these events turn out. not familiar with the lifestyle part, i just know it used to be a grind.
Hi! Many thanks for doing this. Is it possible to recruit full-time for HK? I have an offer for 2023 summer internship at a top tier BB based in NYC, and wondering if it's possible to full-time recruit for HK office after my junior year SA after 2023 summer. Thanks!
yes for sure. it is possible. Some banks used to not hire FT, but rather get lateral later on (GS HK IBD but a couple years back). that was just because class was really small.
Now class is bigger, but market flow is a lot weaker, so there is actually a chance they have to freeze hc. good to keep that in mind.
Hi HKIBthrowaway, thanks for the great insights! I am an incoming IB analyst in tier1 BB in HK. Thinking about moving to London for personal reasons in the short term (< 1 year). Have already reached out to the bank and was told that immediate transfer is impossible. What's your suggestion of getting a transfer within 12 months? Apart from internal transfer, what's the prospect of directly recruiting for LD IB/PE from HK IB? Thank you so much!
close the transfer asap if possible, before things change. Banks don't keep their word for long.
not sure about LDN recruiting, maybe someone on this thread can pitch in. I think as long as u can get ur foot in the door thru refer/resume sending/networking, you should be fine.
Hi OP, thanks for all the great insights. Saw a question on European banks but kinda want to go deeper:
1. What's the culture like compared to the US banks?
2. How is Credit Suisse perceived in HK? Their TMT house had really impressive deal flows in 2020 but not sure about the situation after the Archegos loss.
Thanx a ton!
Cannot comment on either. Don't think there is a meaningful difference.
This year all the banks should have a very hard time as China's economy worsens. Debt and Equity side are both bearish. this should be true across banks.
Hi, thanks for all your advice.
Just one quick question, to what extent do you think this year’s weak market performance and current covid-19 situation in SH would affect the return rate for mainland bb.
it is a bank by bank thing. Some banks double down on mainland while others shift away. China policy risk is too much for some banks appetite.
Overall also depends on function. right now both equity and debt are pretty tough.
-
Hi there, thanks for sharing.
How would you rank BBs (maybe specifically to TMT sector) in HK as of today?
How’s the culture like at BAML? Heard it’s more of a sweat shop compared to other BBs.
Thanks a lot.
Heard baml got solid exits, and decent pay. hours depend on group as always. All HK banks are pretty sweaty, no weekend is off limits. CHN TMT is getting obliterated, so it is very tough to rank anything honestly. Just assume ur US league table applies.
Hi OP! Thanks so much for sharing. I am a junior at CICC mainland, so far my team's deal flow is generally good but mainly concentrate on A-share deals. Working environment and hours is also not bad but bonus is deteriorating. Just wonder if it's worth it to lateral to non-Chinese IBs in HK for exposure, exit and pay?
Really appreciate any advice on this!!
Always worth it. U learn a lot more than CICC i believe. Although i have not stayed in a Chinese bank.
Thanks a lot for your advice!
Same question here. Currently working at a Chinese investment bank M&A. Heard that going through lateral hiring to HK is tough, tougher for BBs.
It is hard indeed, especially if you are concentrating on A-share deals. but it's doable if you have a few cross border M&A or HK IPOs on resume.
Curious how is bonus typically for juniors at BB in HK
anywhere 3-12 month. This year should be quite bad.
3 months from BB? That's a joke lol
Hi, thanks for doing this! I have 2 questions regarding the hiring process in HK:
1) How hard is it to lateral into a BB/MM IBD role from a boutique IB? I hope to go into PE in the future, and so would like to avoid the most obvious route of getting an MBA if I don't break into IBD.
2) How competitive is the HK scene exactly? I know a great deal about other locations, but am unsure about HK due to misinformation spread everywhere. For example, the grade average, the internship count and experience, etc.
If this thread is still active, would love to get a reply! Thanks!
1. Possible to go EB to BB, usually pretty doable bc BB was short of staff and wanted anyone with solid technical and good shop experience. This year market is very very bad. Teams are not seeing the same level of fees, thus also not hiring much. It is gonna be harder than last year. Use ur networks.
2. it is competitive. I have been given resumes to do some screening. I took out like 10 out of a stack of 200. All 10 got MF, BB IB, EB or HYPS type of stuff, pretty much all 3.8GPA +. Half of them did masters at best schools, and pre-master did relevant experience. I am talking MFE type not MBA, MBA headcounts are fewer. So the key is to have good network and no major shortcoming. It is very competitive, and you should always have plan B.
Many thanks for sharing this.
Hi is there probability of breaking into HK BB with a target school in SEA (KR) as education? Have you seen colleagues who have broken in with the following educational background? Or would this only be possible with an MS/MBA degree?
Thank you
HK BB personally i have not seen. Maybe S&T got some? If you got deep background/connection, then u might? Otherwise Masters/MBA at US/UK top name is the majority of candidates, with the rest coming from top 4 chn schools and local hk top 3. Still, mandarin ability is a must.
Hi HKIBthrowaway,
I am a HK IBD tier 2 bank analyst (HSBC/Nomura/BNP/Macquarie) at industry groups. I am planning to move to BB industry groups by lateral but feel hard to get referral or even BB contacts (Because I did not finish my degree in HK universities or other universities where you can have many alumni in HK. And my bank only recruit few graduates so no peers). Do you have any advice on that (how to get more BB contacts and referral) or do you think I should rely more on head hunters? Many thanks!
Not sure why u wanna move. Heard BNP is heaven haha. re contacts, use linkedin for HK alum of urs in banking. If no alums, DM anyone of the banks u wanna go to, offer quick coffee near their office, they will likely come down. Just linkedin premium. This should be done by u rather than any HH, as it is ur brand to advertise.
If u really cannot find anyone, can DM me. I can add u to a group.
——
U meet the criteria. You should be fine. Biggest thing that is against u is probably this frozen market. Look at how recent Himalaya deal couldnt even place 100mm lol. Winter is coming and it is gonna last a bit.
School wise, UChi ~ UCB>HKUST I guess. They are all good enough. Make sure u have stellar GPA and study technicals/accounting/market news/deals very diligently. Network and coffee chat with people over zoom. You should be fine. HK probs open by then. You are on a good path towards IB, although HK IB might not be as good as it was.
Is GPA still important when you lateral if you have a few years of work experience? Can you leave it off your resume?
——
Is it possible to be black and work in hk ibd ?
No one cares about ur color. They only care if u speak mandarin...
Thanks for posting this! I am currently a NYC IBD SA at BB.
1. I am thinking about any chance to move to HK because I don't see myself in the US as an international student (no complaints about the work tho). Is full-time recruitment in HK possible?
2. If directly going for a full-time recruitment is hard in HK, I also think about apply for graduate program. Would Mfin at a top-ranked school in HK/US/UK work?
3. Is networking a heavily-weighted factor in recruiting process and your career?
Assuming u know mandarin, bc otherwise u will experience significant headwind.
1. yes US names are respected at the same caliber
2. yes
3. Not as important in HK. Networking however shows u the ropes of how to answer questions well.
Hi HKIBthrowaway, thanks so much for posting
I'm a newly joined HK BB S&T 1y analyst, thinking of switching into IB. I'm native in Mandarin & grad from top 3 HK uni. I realize this switch is extremely difficult but just want to hear what you would advise.
I'm currently thinking of the below...
1) Apply for MFE in HK (enrolls next Sep) then recruit again for HK IB next fall (during my MFE in HK, prob also easier to find part time corporate finance internships)
2) Prep for GMAT this year, apply for better ranked US/UK MFE next fall, then recruit HK IB in 2024 fall.
3) Prep for IB now and aim at landing any corporate finance/lower tier IB role sometime next year. Then try to move to better shops further down the road.
These are my rough/perhaps naive plans. Which one would you think gives me better chance to be in BB/Boutique IB say in 3/4 years time. Thank you!
3 should give u the best chance. Not sure between 1 and 2.
Not many people share your path, but i have seen people who made the move. (one did S&T internship then just recruited IB FT).
..
Heard HL RX got great meal budget lol. It is a tough job and hours are on par with BBIB if not longer. Exit is a bit more limited due to the restructuring / distressed nature. But HL name holds and u will probably work on some sticky China RE deal
Hi thanks for doing this! I am now an analyst at cicc hk ibd. The deal flow, esp hk ipo, is generally good but I’m thinking abt jumping to bb for broader career choices in the future. My concerns are as follows:
1. Do bbs often lateral hire from cicc or other Chinese banks? How’s the chance of getting a bb offer?
2. How is cicc perceived by bb recruiters and business professionals? Esp compared with other BBs and EB/MM banks. Is there a preference to these banks?
3. Is the current market completely frozen? Do you know any firm still recruiting juniors? I talked to HHs but their words are often ambiguous.
4. Do you think ib analyst -> m7 mba -> post mba asso a viable way to bbs? How is the chance? What about mba -> post mba buy side roles if I have only cicc as my pre-mba exp?
5. This is a bit tricky tho. I heard that Chinese banks pay their seniors generously despite the juniors pays are generally 30+% lower. My former boss in a pe internship thinks that the future of hk bbs is a bit pessimistic. How do you compare long term career at cicc vs bb?
Thanks very much for your insights in advance. I have truly learnt a lot from your other threads and thanks again for providing valuable information!
glad the other answers helped.
re your questions:
1. 2020-2021, all the BBs were bleeding juniors and hiring from CICC is often seen. Have seen people who made jumps like that at all levels for HK IB. CICC is def best pure chinese bank, and it is even better u are HK CICC. if you got HK IPOs on ur belt, you will look great. The issue is HK IPO market is quite bad. Just look at HKexnews new prospectus and how bad the deals are going.... Onewo is set to be the biggest issuance at under US$1bn size lol. From now to 2023 won't be rosy for IB at all. It is not you, it is the industry and era. So chances are there but not as good as last year.
2. see above. BB/EB def better rep. Some kids are really good with perfect English and mandarin. But as long as u get interviews as CICC and u have good knowledge and presentation of urself, you should be fine.
3. The issue is not really who is still hiring, but rather even if they are, the cuts from other BBs will try to go there too. It is a tough market. People are not leaving banks as fast due to frozen PE VC activity as well.
4. viable but i think u also know MBA asso in HK is more rare than in US. Going straight to buyside with CICC pre-mba is doable if u got a good m7. Good school reps still open doors. Top PEVC shops are always hard with whatever credential that is not the supposed golden path. For MBA Qs, you should ask people from the school u are going to and see how they play the recruiting / career pivot game.
5. CICC can pay 24months bonus to juniors if they are on super deals, although their base is like half of bb. Seniors wise, i don't think it will be a competency thing but rather about bloodline and politics. I have no insight on how many more millions MDs get at here or there, they might each get a tailored deal when poached.
Chinese banks IB in HK are not looking good. There is a chance that CICC people will pay mainland tax rate, not fun. There was some CICC trader who got on news bc his wife posted pay slip. The monthly was like 10k usd or something and that pissed people off so much, the gov straight regulated every SOE banks IB salary. Just reminding everyone that this is not free economy. Chinese banks might get bigger wallet share in IPO fees as BBs retreat and locals undercut, but the days of mega deals are likely gone, and fees won't go into juniors' pockets.
also i don't think many people want a long term career in IB and im in that camp, so not really gonna compare cicc vs. BB. The better question would be how soon you should jump ship.
Hey HKIBthrowaway:
I have DM'ed you - much appreciate your insights, very informational.
Hi, thanks for the post. Is Barclays IBD a better choice for SA compared to BofA GCM HK, considering possible exit opportunies and career progression?
take ur IBD i think. GCM is nicer hours but rn hk flow is quite dead, both debt and equity.
thanks for the advice!
Thanks for this fantastic post!
Would love to hear your comments on Nomura IBD HK:
1) How is it perceived in HK? Any particular strong group?
2) Would the brand or exposure limit the exits to top exits, like top funds?
3) Any idea on deal flows, hours, bonus there
Thanks in advance!!
1. not top tier. Not as many top level deals, but def still better than chinese IB
2. yes. The market is super cutthroat. You gotta make up somewhere else
3. no idea.
Best of luck ! you can still lateral to another bank quite soon and then do your buyside hunting. Although overall HK market is quite scary looking rn.
Hi! Thanks so much for doing this.
You might not know this, but I am wondering how is management consulting (M/B/B) perceived by headhunters and PE/VC funds in Mainland/HK?
I’ve always tried to get BB IB in HK but was never successful. When this consulting gig opened up I jumped right in.
Not sure about PE prospects, though.
Really appreciate your insights!
It might do better in mainland and probs in PE/VC portco mgmt arms. However, if you are from a good school, you should be able to get interview, no guarantee though. Once you have an interview, as long as you know your stuff inside out, you should be fine.
Thanks for the response!
Hi there.Thanks so much for doing this.
I am curious about the possibility to HK BB for an non-CICC or CITICS Chinese IB employee. Does a M7 or Insead MBA degree will be helpful?
You don't need MBA. fresh MBA with no exp might have a harder time.
If you are Haitong/CLSA/CMBI level bank , it is entirely doable to go to BB. But now with no deal volume, not sure if it still works
Is this possible to go from a big FoF platform say (Adam Street, Stepstone, Hamilton Lane, Ardian etc) to BB/EB IB in HK?
kinda hard bc the skills are not transferable. But if you can get interviews (probably network) as a lateral and ace the interviews, then yeah sure. Although u are alrd at where the BB IB people wanna go to haha.
Gotcha, thanks for the reply!
Heyy thank you for doing this, I got an offer from one of the big four Chinese houses(BOCI/ABCI/CCBI/ICBCI)as an associate, do you have any insights about these Chinese houses? like total package/ deal flow/ culture etc. thankyou!
never worked in one of those, but have heard a bunch of stuff:
-there is relationship hiring (welp some BBs got them too)
-some cultures are not good, but neither are BBs
-you will likely work on SoE related deals or be JGC / JBR / co sponsor (not lead left) on the IPOs, but the deal flows are still there
-base is lower, but if you are at a CICC like shop and worked on superstar deals, you can get 12months+ bonus (those are rare though)
thank you
What is going to happen to the bunch who were laid off recently? Highly doubting market can absorb this much people. Buyside sucks in general with most paying well below sell side coupled with higher standard and attrition
Talked to some friends, I think MBA/Masters for some. Pivot to corp for some others.
Thanks for doing this!! I will join a non-bb foreign bank (HSBC, Nomura, Macquarie, BNP etc) next year as a DCM analyst. I wonder what's the possibility of jumping to a BB sector team (prefer the real estate & industrial) through lateral hiring. How can I increase my chances?
The longer you stay in DCM, the further gone you are from industry team. Try make friends with industry and have them look out for opps for you. Learn the equity side of business bc obv u have nailed the debt side. I think at analyst level you just gotta network and ask them straight up, make it clear. It is doable but there is no guarantee, esp in this market.
Hi thanks for doing this! Went through every answer in this post and learned a ton :) I’m currently working in a BB IB based in SH (TMT coverage), and aspire to jump to a MF / UMM in mainland China / HK. Would love to here you thoughts on:
1. yes for the first sub question. No for the second. PP can be very simple... M&A could be much messier. If you are great at making pizza, I sill won't trust you with making salad. Despite both being cooking.
2. only healthcare and EV stuff got some req i have seen. Some funds specifically want non-biz undergrad for hc. For obv and fair reasons.
3. 4-5 years? As in you have become too sellside and too expensive for buyside. Also it is negative signalling if you have failed to find a buyside opp for years.
Thanks for the reply!
Hello, thanks for sharing. Would like to PM you for some career advices
Hi! Thank you for doing this!
im wondering do you have to be a HK citizen to recruit for SA positions? I speak and write fluent mandarin.
thanks!
Bump
What would you say are the top bb rankings now?
I suppose it’s the American banks on top, European banks in the lower half; but the deal flow is still not good in general for all banks
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