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I've heard great things about the culture at HLHZ
Curious about Mesirow. Do they have positions for SA/internships?
Mesirow: below market base (50-60), no clue on bonus. Mostly paper, plastic and packaging focused. No clue on hours, exits ops are okay in Chicago, but you'll be riding the struggle bus trying to exit to NY, SF, LA, etc.
HL (I'm assuming Chicago, given the other two): market base and bonus, industrials is a great group, should have good MM PE exits, you'll work very hard there; not sure on other groups.
SRR (stout?): least well-known of the 3. Don't really have any other insights, other than their bread & butter is valuations, fairness opinions, etc.
Thanks VanBurenBoyz. Very helpful
SRR pay is below street, but hours are very manageable for IB. The Chicago office just had a few senior bankers leave to go to a competitor.
As mentioned, HLHZ has a very intense culture and a pretty large presence in Chicago. Probably one of the top MM players in the area, with Lincoln International as their biggest competitor. Analysts place well into PE. Also, HLHZ will provide the most room for internal mobility, as they have many different verticals (FAS, Restructuring, Corp Fin).
Mesirow has a very strong brand name in Chicago, not specifically for IB, but just in general. Other than that, I can't provide too much insight.
Hope this helps some.
Middle Market Banks - Strong MM bank (Originally Posted: 07/07/2006)
how is a career different at a strong middle market bank (Jefferies, Piper Jaffray, Baird, blair, etc.)? I have heard that the hours are slightly better, and also that since they are not usually located in NY, lower living costs means more savings.
Finally, how about for P/E....at these banks, analysts can get exposure to M&A, etc....so how does that help for getting into PE?
If you have a choice go bulge bracket. You'll get the name and most likely better training and exposure to complex financial analyses. Sure the hours might be better but you're going into banking-that shouldn't be a real point of concern. Plus at some middle market firms you end up doing a lot of bullshit admin tasks because there is no desktop publishing, etc. The place where a mid market bank might be more attractive is associate and up FOLLOWING a solid analyst experience at a BB.
thanks for the response.
The BB response you got above is asinine. Middle market banks run leaner deal teams, period. Leaner deal teams = larger amount of responsibility (i.e., you get to go to meetings, are responsible for all the modeling, etc...) and less competition among analysts ("no that's my slide in the pitch, no it's mine..."). As for the admin aspect, all admins at all middle market banks that I've heard of do all of the desktop publishing (powerpoint, etc...), that's what they're trained to do, you don't do it. PLUS you do work slightly less hours than BB, I assume because pitch volume is lower (which as an analyst, who cares?). Your base pay is exactly the same as BB and you can expect an approximate 10-15% discount to BB's bonuses. So, if BB is paying a $100k bonus, you get $85-90k and you're not living in NYC so the $10-15k you 'lose' does not NEARLY make up for the standard of living adjustments of living in the midwest or elsewhere vs. NYC.
Bottom line, you'll hear all the BB analysts on this site tout the 'brand name' and 'hardcore training,' etc... of BBs over mid-market firms, but it's just to make themselves feel good about working 15+ hours a week more than middle market analysts for a fraction more of additional pay. As a middle market i-banking analyst, I would challenge any BB analyst in modeling/excel/etc... (not to say I'd always win, or am that great, but my point is that we're all at approximately the same level).
Go middle market.
totally agree with the go middle market approach...
I would have to kindly disagree to the above response. I think to properly answer this question it's important to consider the broader context of the analyst experience. You become an analyst to (1) learn finance to where you can break out models/analyses with your eyes closed, (2) learn how the business world works, (3) establish well-heeled contacts, (4) get a pedigree. I think a BB experience is better for all of these, especially number 4. This is especially important down the line. Sure you may be able to build an excel model that could guide a space shuttle to mars but people don't know this and when you're applying for future jobs (i.e. PE) or starting up your own business, having that pedigree gives you a definite edge before you even open your mouth. Let's face it, finance is definitely a snobbish industry so sometimes you gotta to do what you gotta do.
As for the hours, I don't think anyone is going into banking for lifestyle reasons. It's going to be a shitfest wherever so might as well maximize return on your experience.
Look I'm not trying stratify people here, just trying to get outside the game and observe how it plays out. I also think you need to ask yourself what you eventually want to end up doing. If you want to make a career out of middle market banking or something along those lines middle market would be alright. However, if you're like 95% of the population and just want the experience and then get the fuck out and on to bigger and better things hit the BB.
I work at a MM bank. Although you are no doubt correct about your points (1) and (4) I must disagree with you on (2) and (3). Yes finance is snobby. Yes most people that work at MM didn't do BB because they didn't get offers (myself included)
However hindsight is 20/20. I love that fact that I get almost every weekend off, average 60-65 hour weeks and still have a social life that is only fucked up because of banking occasionally, as opposed to all the time. Granted we get paid about 20% less, but work 20% less, so its a wash. (i'd rather have the free time than the money anyway)
Yes the finance training isn't even comparable, but you learn it on the job and will eventually be about even, although it will take about longer, I'd say a 3 year analyst stint at an MM is equal to 2 at a BB. There is no denying the pedigree, nothing will ever overcome that, however the older one gets the less that matters (when your 35 no one cares where you were an analyst at 23).
I'd say you learn more about the business world at a MM because its more entrepreneurial. Also I think you make just as good, if not better contacts at a MM. Your dealing with the same institutions when raising money is concerned but get greater exposure. I don't have any VP levels at my bank, just MDs and then associates and analysts, so we get involved in all the work that would be normally done by VPs levels, thus gaining much greater client exposure.
I'd say get a job where ever you can, if its BB and you don't mind the lack of social life, by all means that
people are still arguing about it to this day.
The world has changed. And we must change with it.
MM Banks (Originally Posted: 04/16/2008)
I have 2 questions about MM banks:
If you work as analyst at one then go for your MBA, do BBs value that experience, when recruiting, as much as they would if you had worked at a BB?
Are the bonuses comparable to BBs when working as analyst? How about the hours? (In the context of a NYC location)
Yes the banks and PEs do discount a bit if you worked at a MM instead of a BB- just look at associate profiles and you'll we mostly BBs. However if you got great deal exposure there vs a BB kid who got shit for work you will be looked upon more favorably.
Most respected MMs pay street or better. Hours vary just like BBs.
If youre class of 2011, why on earth are you worried about MBAs? Go out and party and enjoy undergrad.
I'm worried about all of this because I come from a non-target school and my GPA isnt so great. I'm thinking I'll end up at a MM.
if you're from a non-target....you have more things to worry about than falling into a MM. In all honesty, you would be in a great position if you could work at a MM. Coming from a non-target myself, my best piece of advice for you is to get involved like crazy. And take on leadership positions within. Join a fraternity or something that is actually demanding rather than a typicaly club that meets once a semester. Lastly, do worry about your grades. Oh and start doing internships EARLY!!
People seem to think that getting into a MM is somehow lightyears easier than getting into a BB. It's not. In some ways its even more difficult because they are smaller and hence fewer available contacts. The regional MMs in Boston I interviewed with hired almost exclusively from Harvard/MIT, with a few BC kids. I was the only kid not from one of those schools to interview.
Your bigger concern should be getting a 3.8+, getting actively involved in a big club/activity, and then networking like crazy. Also doesn't hurt to work as often as possible during the school year and summer to build your resume.
I'm very stressed out about not being able to get a job in investment banking.
study harder and learn more about the industry and you can fix that. don't think for a second that getting an IB job in MM is a walk in the park...as other posters have mentioned, your main concern not coming from a target isn't about being able to get a BB banking job -- it's about being able to get any banking job -- so just keep your mind on the goal and don't freak out about things
My gpa is such a concern for me. I didnt do well my second year (I'm going to grad in 2011) and the highest I can bump it up now is 3.65. Thats if I get all A's, which is possible but also not allowing any mistake or even Bs!
I see someone above said 3.8 and thats the stuff that freaks me out!
Yea seriously - MM banks are not that much easier to get into, and in some cases like gomes mentioned, they only recruit at top schools.
I also came from a non-target, and my MM bank for my SA stint has mostly top 15 school kids. For me, my GPA was subpar (3.5), but I had really good work experience that might have compensated for my low grades and lack of ECs.
Well, waltersobchek, stories like yours make folks from non-targets feel a bit better. Esp since you mentioned your GPA isnt as high as some say it need be.
Just wanted to add to the comments that have been said. I attend a nontarget and have solid work experience. Based on the comments I read on this board, where the general consensus seems to be "if you can't get into BB go for MM", I thought that with my credentials I would at least be able to get MM interviews without too much effort. When SA recruiting came around, I was surprised to find that I actually received less time and less opportunity to prove myself from MM than BB banks. From my experience, I found that BB were less quick to dismiss me because of my school whereas some MM bank recruiters basically told me "you don't get an interview because your university is outside our core targets".
I agree with everything that has been said, to not discredit the selectivity of MM banks and that if you come from a nontarget, be grateful that you even have a job.
Just another thing on GPA - for targets, I think GPA is used as a way to weed out candidates. I dont think it's quite the same for non-targets, if you can compensate otherwise (ECs, WE)
While I ended up at a MM bank, I interviewed at GS/Lazard and everything below with my 3.5 - and my GPA or school were never brought up as an issue. I got to several final rounds, but did not get an offer. My point is - once you get the interview, your GPA and school really have no relevance.
What sort of work experience or internships (Before doing the SA internship) is helpful to have?
I worked at a Fortune 10 company that was well respected. My work was not like banking work, but the skills I developed were definitely applicable, and I used that to my advantage in my interviews.
Having a big name helps, but once you have the interview, it's all about your experience, and how you convey that.
I would try to get an internship as soon as possible. Maybe even for the summer if you can still find firms in the area where you are located. As far as the target vs. non-target, I personally wouldn't pay any attention to that. ITS A BUNCH OF BS. Don't get scared when people say you are not going to get somewhere because you come from a particular school. I once had a Goldman Head of Trading tell me he didn't even get into college right after high school. In fact, he worked at a karate school! Can you believe that? I would try to get exposure through internships and networking. Ask your parents and family for help. Coming from a non target doesn't mean anything. YOU STILL HAVE TO WORK HARD no matter what. Another thing is to e-mail alum if you can. Don't ask for an internship but just talk to them. Most of them would be glad to just talk. Tell them about yourself and most importantly ask questions! They like that because they want to see that you're interested in financial markets. I can post hundreds of profiles of people on wall st. who didn't go to a target school so don't sweat it.
in response to this, you have to realize that the Goldman guy and our parents lived in a different generation/society where there were less invisible ceilings and more mobility within careers. try pulling a pursuit of happyness scenario nowadays and prepared to get shown the door. In our parents' generation there were a ton of uneducated individuals that were able to make it to the top through untraditional paths.
I'm not saying it is impossible nowadays, but significantly harder than before. The nontarget thing is exaggerated, but holds true to some extent. People won't care that much if you go to a respectable non target, like say top 50-70, but if you're over that or in the other tiers of the US news rankings, good luck even with a 4.0, president of finance club, and internship at local boutique.
1) MM vs. BB makes minimal difference when applying for an MBA program. There are so many bankers applying for MBAs it all starts to look the same after awhile. Individual experience and other parts of app matter a lot more.
In terms of recruiting afterward, BBs might discount you slightly if you worked at a MM rather than a BB, but the difference is not significant enough to be worried about. Basically, you did banking and then did an MBA... that's all that matters.
The main way that MM vs. BB hurts you is in PE recruiting right after banking - BB analysts will get access to a broader set of funds and recruiters vs. MM/boutique analysts.
Basically this means that it will be a lot harder to work at places like KKR and Blackstone if you come from a MM rather than BB.
2) At major, reputable MM firms, yes, the bonuses are basically the same as BBs. At smaller, regional places that no one has heard of, that's not necessarily the case as you could make a lot less.
Hours are comparable, but tend to be slightly better at MMs... it is very group/office dependent, though, I know some analysts at MMs who worked more than analysts at BBs.
All this said, I still recommend going for a BB if you can get in. However, based on your post, it sounds like your main goal should be getting into banking at all (at least for right now).
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