PE is the new IB - IB is the new Big4

I am shocked at the number of non-targets getting offers in IB this year.  Not a single alumni from my target (or ANY target) reached out to me to network for the past 1-2 years.

My linkedin is full of people from EXTREME non targets (not even a D1 state school even), announcing they accepted a full time offer at a top BB or EB.

IB has truly developed such a bad rep through the covid era (even worse than before), I think banks really don't have a lot to choose from these days from their historical hiring practices, and ultimately just want someone that can GRIND. Memorized the technical question bank and want to work 100 hr weeks without complaining?  You are hired.

PE however is where cutoffs are happening.  Seeing lots of analysts struggle with recruiting.  This is the level where you need the polish, pedigree, the right family background, an uncle who can rep you from the right Country Club etc.  IB used to be this way.


And to be clear, I am not trying to gatekeep IB or bemoan the old days.  If more people want to work 100hr weeks and develop health problems, glad nothing is holding them back anymore.  

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Comments (147)

Funniest
Oct 11, 2021 - 2:10pm

How dare kids not try to network with the all mighty baddealflow12, this industry is not what it used to be.

Back in my days you'd need his approval to even be allowed to apply. But these days? Peasants left and right are getting gigs. Truly sad times

Most Helpful
Oct 11, 2021 - 3:29pm

Being honest to me it seems that what really bothers you is that no one is trying to network with you. This is making you second guess yourself and wonder if people see you as a failure or not succesful.

Instead of giving 0 fs about it you have come up with this intricate theory regarding how now everybody is getting in and thus it just doesn't hold any value at all. 
 

Between you & me, I can guarantee you that said non D1 kid has to be extremely bright or extremely hard working to get in before not just the targets, but any major school. And yet instead of being happy about him you try to invalidate his success. Sad

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Oct 14, 2021 - 12:19am

Then you will really hate me then buddy.  High School Drop Out, Pro Athlete that is now associate in IB.  Made my own connections in NYC and was offered the gig.  School will never give you as much opportunity as having a set of balls and living in a major metropolis will.  Dont be bitter. 

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Oct 11, 2021 - 3:20pm

In a way he's right because I'm seeing lots of minorities getting IB jobs(in the past would have been difficult) 

But the megafunds and top pe shops look white as can be.

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Oct 11, 2021 - 2:43pm

The finance scene in London is so incredibly cucked it's insane

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Oct 11, 2021 - 3:20pm

I find it really weird how people love to assume every ethnic minority/woman/LGBT is a 'diversity' hire. Maybe they were simply hired for being good. A lot of what you guys would call 'diversity' hires at the bank i'm currently interning at are from targets/semis and are good at their job. Always insane how the same negative energy isn't directed towards nepotism hires, which is very telling of your thoughts........

Oct 11, 2021 - 3:05pm

Wrong.  The industry wants analysts that can grind and wont quit after 1 year or less.   This is a huge problem.  Analysts are quitting left and right at rates never seen before.

The smartest kids are going into tech, PE, consulting.  IB wants these kids but they aren't getting them like they used to.

Sorry but its the truth.

Oct 13, 2021 - 9:39am

Yeah this is the typical distribution you'd expect.

Some firms might skew a little higher on non-targets (maybe 15% instead of 10%) but generally this is it.

Consulting (esp. MBB) is more target heavy. Probably 75-20-5. 

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Oct 11, 2021 - 4:20pm

During my bb internship , i did notice a lot of non targets who lateraled in from tAS or accounting which is non traditional since they usually give 90% offer rates to interns

Oct 11, 2021 - 4:11pm

The most insane post I've ever seen.

The value proposition for IB roles has diminished for target students due to greater optionality, but the number of applicants hasn't dropped from these schools.

Tech, though highly lucrative at 10 firms and some start ups, will never be as prestigious as high finance. Investment Bankers help facilitate core business functions. AKA what executive teams care about e.g Growth/Strategy/Revenue/Valuation.

Outside of FAANG (top 10 tech companies) most tech companies suck. Legacy software, bad culture, and loads of processes to get anything done.

I summered in strategy consulting and had a return offer a MBB. To claim Consultants are smarter is laughable. The lifestyle is brutal and loads of people have left, which is why firms have raise salaries.

Lastly, its universally known how bad PE hours/culture is and for many firms require a stint in IB to land a role.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

  • Partner in PE - LBOs
Oct 11, 2021 - 4:24pm

"Tech, though highly lucrative at 10 firms and some start ups, will never be as prestigious as high finance."

Lol what? News to me that working in a cubicle, never seeing the sun, and developing chest issues is 23, are considered "prestigious". 

The only people who think it's prestige is former investment bankers, CEOs, and the admissions officers at top MBAs.

I have yet to meet a single investment banker in my life who has ever told me "I love getting ass fucked until 2AM formatting logos and moving commas"

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Oct 11, 2021 - 7:34pm

Sidenote: Given you are a partner, I would love to hear your perspective on the value proposition you see among different opportunities like tech, consulting, IB, and PE as they relate to current undergrads in 2021. I'm pretty agnostic to all of them as career paths, myself.

Oct 11, 2021 - 4:33pm

Outside of FAANG (top 10 tech companies) most tech companies suck. Legacy software, bad culture, and loads of processes to get anything done.

Not true at all.  Tons and tons of interesting startups and unicorns

To claim Consultants are smarter is laughable.

Strong disagree.  MBB types are very bright.  

Lastly, its universally known how bad PE hours/culture is and for many firms require a stint in IB to land a role.

Which is why its the "new IB".  Sort of sucks - long hours - need a strong pedigree (with family connections and background playing a stronger role).   Some people are put off by it and rather pursue something else.....sounds like IB in the past....

Many PE firms are direct hiring analysts now too from undergrad.  Which (SURPRISE) are universally top target kids.

Its the new IB

Oct 13, 2021 - 9:46am

Lol, you can just admit you only know 10 tech companies - that's ok. No need to use your lack of knowledge to justify a shit take. 

Also, Christ Alive, can we stop this Tech v Finance comparison at the undergrad level? Most of the roles available to new grads are for Software Engineering. The business roles that are an alternative to consulting or banking (e.g. product, product marketing, finance, strategy, BizDev, Corp Dev etc) have infinitely less headcount at the undergrad campus recruiting level. In fact, a good chunk are only really accessible via exit opps or post-MBA. Tech is not really a major competitor with finance or consulting straight out of school save for the rare few Math / CS / Eng / Physics folks who could have gone either way.  Ditto Quant Finance.

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Oct 14, 2021 - 2:59pm

"Tech, though highly lucrative at 10 firms and some start ups, will never be as prestigious as high finance. Investment Bankers help facilitate core business functions. AKA what executive teams care about e.g Growth/Strategy/Revenue/Valuation.

Outside of FAANG (top 10 tech companies) most tech companies suck. Legacy software, bad culture, and loads of processes to get anything done."

You've never actually worked in tech have you? Seems pretty obvious to someone who's been in FinTech for over a decade now. Legacy software, bad culture and loads of process to get anything done is what describes banking, not the tech world you're trying to describe. 

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  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Oct 11, 2021 - 5:16pm

Aha gotta love the privilege of being a run of the mill politician. Who cares about being on the buy-side or "master of the universe" when I can enjoy the fruits of all your labor while getting this stable pay check *wink* *wink* ;)

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Oct 11, 2021 - 4:38pm

As someone who graduated from an Ivy, know plenty of kids who struck out in IB recruiting. I just think now more banks would rather the smartest kid from a non-target (and this is true- all the kids I work with from non targets were near the top of their class, president of their investment club, etc) vs some kid with a 2.8 from Dartmouth who spent 4 years at frat parties.

Oct 11, 2021 - 5:18pm

Completely agree, but op(baddealflow) has some merit in his argument with many non targets reaching out. It's not just kids from like Villanova, Ohio State, Maryland, Bentley reaching out. People who attend these schools have a reason usually for attending, like cheaper tuition, religious or family/ home reasons.My bullpen gets consistent networking emails from random schools in Washington state, when UW is their (non target flagship) and like umississippi, Texas tech which are schools that have like an average of 1000 SAT scores. On top of that it's usually the same student reaching out in mass to one top Bb or mm banks who have like a 2 man boutique internship looking for SA openings.

Oct 14, 2021 - 1:06am

Honestly a lot of the target school kids (at the analyst/associate levels) I've been around in IB have been pretty underwhelming as well. Some are quick learners, but most don't offer any substantive value-add relative to what I would expect an average analyst/associate to offer

Oct 11, 2021 - 5:17pm

Because people are becoming less obsessed with money. Given how popular FIRE and passive investing has become, people understand they can work in a job they enjoy for 25 years and retire with the same NW as if they worked a job they hated for 20 years for more money. Plus kids graduating college are richer than before as they're more likely to have inheritance or trust funds

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Oct 13, 2021 - 4:21am

Dont get me wrong, Evercore is a great shop but it's really big now and it's changed over the last few years. I guess it's "diluted" in the same way BBs are, which comes with having a class size of 60+. I dont think any banking job is comparable to "preftige" of MFPE except maybe PJT RSSG. 

Oct 11, 2021 - 8:24pm

Not too surprising of a trend to see more kids from non-targets, though I doubt at the rates you're claiming. I broke in from a non-target and interned with guys from a range of schools. There is a wealth of information about recruiting available online for free nowadays. If someone starts early and prepares well they have a good shot at getting into at least one bank no matter where they are from. Like others in the thread have said, it's not a bad idea to take the one or two highest performers from a non-target school. I will agree strong target school kids are going straight to PE more often, but there's still value in an analyst program since plenty of PE shops want you to be turnkey. 

Oct 13, 2021 - 1:03pm

While everything in your post is true and should be stickied, you're going to struggle to find people like that here. This place wreaks of entitlement and elitism. 

Oct 12, 2021 - 10:30am

As pretentious as this post comes off there's some truth to it

"The future will be better tomorrow" -Dan Quayle

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  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Oct 12, 2021 - 11:09am

While I disagree, with your rationale i.e. "nobody has networked with me," there is  truth to this post. IBD used to attract top talent at both the undergrad and MBA level. Now, given the influx of opportunities out of undergrad like PE, HF, tech (PM etc), MBB - this has declined significantly. Similarly, at the MBA level, the decline in students who want to get into IBD has been rapid. I think, for example, in Chicago Booth, over 5-6 years the number of people going into IBD has declined by 10 percentage points due to MBB, tech etc. I don't know a single person at H / S MBA who went into IBD

The interesting point however is that I do not think the work / deal flow in IBD has changed significantly (comp has declined vs. pre crisis but is now at all time highs since then) vs the time it used to be the #1 choice. In fact - it may even have got better. It's just that (better) alternatives have cropped up i.e. PE, HF, tech etc. 

Oct 13, 2021 - 9:50am

There are max, maybe ~300-400 new grad product seats available out of undergrad? And max maybe about the same in terms of all buyside gigs? How are either of those making a considerable dent in the 3-4k+ BB/EB/top MM/BSB analyst class? 

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Oct 14, 2021 - 3:37pm

I agree with you but I think this is just how employee competition works. IB comp has been decreasing because there was a massive supply of candidates. However, with the rise of PE from undergrad, Tech, MBB etc it just means if IB wants top talent they need to match comp / lifestyle. IB is still an intense prestigious industry that wants high-quality individuals. I think banks are beginning to realize that hence the bump is comp all around. this isn't some "shift in IB and now it's doomed" it's just how market dynamics / capitalism work (Econ 101 anyone?). 

now is actually a good time to get into IB because it's somewhat easier to get in while banking comp / lifestyle plays catch up with tech and the others, but eventually, it will have to match or exceed the other careers if banks want to continue to get top talent (Lazard with that $200k associate base). EVR's success is partially attributable to above street pay + cash bonus attracting the brightest of people

  • Incoming Analyst in IB-M&A
Oct 12, 2021 - 11:34am

Very little productivity in this forum - but I'll bite.

Graduating from a top target this spring, heading to top GE full time, interned at a BB last summer.

I will say one thing I noticed is that a ton of my peers - even those who did their SAs @ mid-low BBs - ended up jumping to very reputable buyside shops for FT like I did at the end of the summer.

I think 10 years ago, when banking paid just about the best of any field out of graduation, a lot of people were willing to suck it up.

Now, with the rise of PE + HF analyst programs, SWE, quant, VCs paying better, consulting roles offering way better W/L balance with arguably similar buyside/corp dev exit ops, etc., banking is not the only gig in town.

Top target grads have a lot of self-respect (some call this ego and rightfully so) and quite frankly the idea of working so hard to get to a school like that only to be dicked around by a client 100 hr/wk after graduation is not really worth it. My analysts and associates over the summer spent 90% of the time on formatting changes and process.

Banking itself will need to fundamentally change over the next 10 years, I'm sure of it - otherwise there will be very little quality talent left. In truth, banks all in should be paying more than every other field minus quant given how much of a sacrifice it is. Or maybe bankers should all accept less pay and better hours.

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Oct 12, 2021 - 11:42am

Agreed - I think that the talent IBD is getting is declining every year. However, client demands are still as / if not more difficult than before. I think there needs to be a fundamental change in either hours or pay. 

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
Oct 12, 2021 - 2:04pm

Let's be real here.

There are still FAR fewer entry level PE jobs than there are analysts entering IB every year. Of course that small group of seats goes almost exclusively to ivy kids. You don't have to be a non-retard to realize there's some supply and demand at play here. Alas, many of these PE jobs are at MM/LMM shops that offer less associate-level recruiting options than their banking counterparts are receiving.

As for consulting, which is about 50% IB rejects, they do generally see a better WLB, but not at the MBB firms that everyone seems to tout as the consulting standard. Realistically, most consultants aren't at Bain, rather Accenture or some other firm and have no ability to move into PE at all. Some might ask why they even want to move into PE given they have a better WLB. Well, the WLB of PE people (no, im not using Apollo as the standard here) improves significantly over time and your pay exponentiates past consultants or SWE. PE people also have the option to enter the start-up scene too. PE guys have been thrown buttfuck tons of money over the decades in starting capital, and that isn't going to come close to ending anytime soon. Of course, they can also just go take c-suite roles at portfolio companies too. People in PE have a higher floor and an easier to achieve ceiling in comp compared tech or consulting and the only people that try to deny this are people that can't break in anymore. 

In short, sorry that you guys didn't get into MF PE or banking out of college and we got those comp bumps this past year. Good luck with PWC consulting and convincing yourself that you're better than the Jefferies analyst.

Oct 13, 2021 - 9:53am

How can consulting be 50% of IB rejects when it's harder to get into consulting and there are fewer roles? What are you smoking? 

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
Oct 13, 2021 - 10:24am

Where are you getting this from? I can only find sources that show significantly more management consultants in the US versus the number of bankers, and it's pretty common knowledge that banking is harder to get into. Outside of MBB, you can't be serious in saying that Big 4 consultants have a recruiting process nearly as grueling as any MM firm or the vast majority of boutiques.

Investment Banking & Securities Dealing in the US - Employment Statistics | IBISWorld
Management Consulting in the US - Employment Statistics | IBISWorld

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Oct 13, 2021 - 10:31am

It's a bit different depending on school, but for MBB, they have a heavy bias towards their targets. At W at least, landing MBB is not too difficult, and when I was an undergrad many people who didn't land a top IB offer opted to wait until consulting recruiting instead of mid/low tier IB, because of the later timeline. The 50% is definitely exaggerated, unless you're considering non-MBB consulting, but at a target I wouldn't say getting MBB is harder than a top IB group (EB/top BB). I went through the process, and the guide with cases/frameworks is like banking's m&i/vault guides,

They're both great careers either way

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Oct 12, 2021 - 2:05pm

OP makes a semi-correct observation but draws the wrong conclusion. Yes, PE analyst programs are becoming more common, but this alone does not explain why you see slightly fewer target students in banking than you did 10 years ago. First off, analyst classes are still ~60% coming from the traditional target schools (Ivies, Georgetown, UMich, NYU Stern, Duke...) so there is plenty of target representation. Second, after the GFC, banks took the initiative to expand their hiring pool to lower-ranked schools and increase non-target representation. The rationale was that having too many people from the same background (WASP candidates from elite schools) had partly caused the GFC because all of these people thought the same way and were more likely to break the rules together. Another part of the argument was that banks didn't want to be labeled as too elitist given all the backlash they got post-2008 and thus made the pledge to give unconventional backgrounds a chance. 

Hence, banks, not candidates, are the reason you see fewer target students. They simply gave more non-targets a chance. As a result, I know plenty of students at targets (Dartmouth, Cornell, Ross, Stern, Duke and the likes) who wanted IB but didn't get BB/EB/top MM offers simply because banks don't want to have these schools be overrepresented in their analyst classes.

Oct 12, 2021 - 2:23pm

Lol I'm sorry we non targets ended up at the same place you guys did while not having to take on 100-200k worth of debt. Hate to break it to ya, but most of the non target IB analysts at BB/EB firms probably could have attended a target, but chose not to for various reasons.

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Oct 13, 2021 - 6:26am

Ivy league graduates graduate with less debt than the average college student. Their financial aid covers it all for students who cant afford it, so the only ones with debt are students whose wealthy parents didnt want to contribute 

Oct 12, 2021 - 3:08pm

Obviously not a target here, but there is a little bit of truth to your post, mixed with what comes off as arrogance. Frankly, I was asked to interview for an associate role partly because of my networking skills, and partly because, as you said, banks want people that can grind and don't seem to care as much about your school. The bank that offered me straight up said this to me.

With that being said, I saw every school I competed against (I went to a D1 state school). I was offered a spot just hours after my super day finished and was told that it was clear I was much more prepared than most candidates (all of which were people from phenomenal schools: Wharton, Stern, Booth, Darden, Fuqua, Kenan-Flagler, etc.). I for one am glad at this recent trend because people like myself can show that we have what it takes vs the old days where we wouldn't even be looked at.

Edit: Wanted to add that while IB hiring trends might be changing, I would also argue that the type of person who attends an Ivy League school, or even a state school is changing as well. You can find some incredibly bright, polished candidates outside of target schools.

Oct 12, 2021 - 6:14pm

Edit: Wanted to add that while IB hiring trends might be changing, I would also argue that the type of person who attends an Ivy League school, or even a state school is changing as well. You can find some incredibly bright, polished candidates outside of target schools.

I have to agree with this one.  The curtain has really been pulled back on college admission in the last 7 years with, the Harvard Lawsuit when they were discriminating against Asians,  and Varsity Blues. Also with banks being able to cast a wider net, you might actually be able to get the top 1% grads at every D1 State School, who honestly probably could give most Ivy students a run for their money.  I think back to my highschool class and the top 20 students could have easily done anything they wanted.  

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Oct 13, 2021 - 6:30am

Funny because finance was traditionally not seen as a "prestigious" career, which is why Jews dominated the industry 

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Oct 13, 2021 - 6:44am

This is pretty true but your take is strange. There are a lot more career options nowadays for top candidates, like PM, MBB, VC, etc., and the top kids still interested in finance usually gun for MF PE or IB groups like PJT RSSG/GS TMT, etc.

However, the majority of IB spots, of which there are a ton (All the BBs, EBs, top MMs), are open to anyone willing to work hard. If not enough talented Ivy League grads want to do IB, nontargets can do just as well and would be happy to do this shitty job. You don't even need to be smart in any of these entry level jobs, except Quant type roles, and even if you did, there are a ton of dumbasses at Ivies that get rejected from IB because they're either socially retarded or don't do basic preparation 

Oct 13, 2021 - 9:51am

This is a mix of more opportunities in industires like tech combined with an outrageous level of deal flow that is putting a massive strain on demands for IB work.  I wouldn't say IB is the new big 4 but there is significantly more opportunity to get into the industry than there was 10 years ago. 

Oct 13, 2021 - 11:32am

Not to pull the COVID card, but without on-campus events this year and last year there was a lot less emphasis on target schools for banks. This gave more opportunities for kids from random schools to put their names out there through virtual events, which they normally wouldn't have because said bank isn't coming to their campus

Oct 13, 2021 - 5:32pm

Yeah, and this is great. As a proud grinder and a foreigner in the US there is nothing I like more than giving deserving first-gen college kids from flyover country a chance at an internship. 

Oct 13, 2021 - 5:35pm

In order to believe your theory, you'd have to believe that target school applicants/interviewees are getting passed over IN LIEU of non-targets, which is not the case. What is actually happening is that the combination of increased deal flow and staffing needs along with a mass exodus from banking resulted in an unprecedented level of positions available, which means that targets are still getting hired ALONG WITH non-targets. I think the proportion of targets who don't deserve to be there and non-targets who don't deserve to be there is probably about equal.

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Oct 13, 2021 - 7:50pm

There is a kernel of truth in here, but overall this is a strange/bad take. Take my class for example - the MBA new hires came almost exclusively from targets, including Harvard, Wharton, booth, etc. The new analysts are more of a mixed bag but the majority of them came from targets or semi-targets. Not sure where these other people are working that hires all these non-targets but it's not the case everywhere.Where I agree is that students have more optionality nowadays - tech and consulting are eating into the pie moreso than 15 years ago, but that doesn't mean there aren't talented people in IB. For PE, I find it hard to believe there are significantly more analyst roles now than there were 15 years ago. The number of firms has increased slightly, and there are more analyst programs, but the numbers aren't large enough to be significant.People who think tech and consulting are the holy grail have grass is greener syndrome. I worked in consulting - was definitely nominally in the office for fewer hours, but it's a constant stream of work that 99% of the time gets thrown into the trash right after the meeting. In IB you at least get breaks here and there, and see a deal go through once in a while - and the pay is better.With tech, yeah if you look at FAANG the pay per hour is significantly better than IB. But you're forever some developer/coding nerd, which isn't everyone's cup of tea. If you think IB is boring, imagine writing code 8 hours a day for the rest of your life. The other 99% of tech jobs suck as was previously mentioned.The grass is always greener. IB is slightly less glamorous than it used to be, but there's still a lot of upside. You do you

Oct 13, 2021 - 8:56pm

What's really crazy are the minority kids getting full time jobs at major firms before they even finish their undergraduate degree. I'm not talking offers, I mean they're actually employed as a sophomore or junior.

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Oct 14, 2021 - 2:53am

I've never heard of this, at least not for EB/BB. Example?

Oct 15, 2021 - 11:58am

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  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
Oct 14, 2021 - 5:55pm

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  • Analyst 1 in CorpFin
Oct 17, 2021 - 10:49pm

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