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Nation-building in Afghanistan was a terrible idea, but it's also a sunk cost (a key accounting principle). For the life of me, I can't understand why we would abruptly pull out of Afghanistan when 2,500 troops were enforcing relative peace, making it more or less impossible for the Taliban to harbor terrorists. Word is that Al-Qaeda is already moving in. Our year-over-year troop casualties was [checks notes] 0 deaths. It would be more dangerous to the troops to police Chicago than Kabul. Now we're sending in 3,000 troops into a potential combat situation to evacuate the embassy. It's like, if you're going to make the questionable call of pulling out, couldn't you quietly have pulled out of the embassy and then announced troop withdrawals?
The Psaki administration is now talking about economic sanctions against the Taliban! The Psaki administration is begging the Taliban not to attack the U.S. Embassy in exchange for FOREIGN AID. The TALIBAN. Cave dwelling 7th century scum.
The Taliban may take over Kabul by tomorrow. And Biden is on vacation at Camp David.
This is why the Obama and Trump administrations, after Obama and Trump both campaigned on leaving Afghanistan, assessed the intelligence upon their elections and reversed their campaign promises. This is what adults do. The Biden administration, however, is not run by Biden; it's run by 30-year-old Ivy League graduates with underdeveloped prefrontal cortexes who are educated beyond commonsense.
Yeah and it sounds good politically to ‘bring the troops home,’ but sometimes if you leave forces like the Taliban to take over, the problem eventually has to be fixed and you may be bringing more bloodshed to be reactive rather than proactively keeping the peace.
Biden is going to have to eat his words at some point about bringing the troops home and the sooner the better. He will probably get Jen Psaki to say it rather than saying it himself.
who is/are the "30-year-old Ivy League graduates"? genuinely asking
Lol blame Biden and not the guy who was prez last 4 years.
It was Biden's decision to bring the troops back home. Trump campaigned to bring them back but then reversed his decision after concluding that removing the troops might cause the scenario we're seeing today. Of course we're going to blame Biden.
Why isn’t it good? Who gives a shit? Afghanistan is a total shithole with zero strategic value to America. The fact that we spent 20 years there is appalling. Islamist Theocrats are probably the only group who can effectively control that shitpile. So let them.
When your argument for more years of endless war is “women’s literacy” (lol) as i’ve seen repeatedly from the MSM, you know you’ve got nothing. Every single thing I care about within Afghanistan is contained within the embassy. Save those people, fuck the rest of it. If they won’t fight then they deserve the Taliban.
The fact that we've been there for 20 years is completely irrelevant data. That's literally a sunk cost fallacy. What adults do is project their actions forward, not complain about the past. What we suspected was that the Taliban would fill the power vacuum and start harboring terrorists again. Word is that Al-Qaeda is already moving back into Afghanistan. Eventually, the U.S. is going to be forced to go back in to fight a hot war again to stop Al-Qaeda attacks on US assets. The idea of "endless war" in Afghanistan is nothing but political talking points. There hasn't been a U.S. combat death in Afghanistan since before Covid.
A suck cost fallacy would be more like "we've already spent 20 years and $XBn dollars, we need to see this through!". Analogous to "we've already spent $100mm on this new product, it would be a waste to cancel it now". My point is that 20 years hasn't gotten us much, it's unlikely that 1, 5, 10, or 20 more would be any different.
And there is virtually zero evidence for your claim that another war in Afghanistan is "inevitable". It's akin to the Domino Theory in Vietnam - if we pull out of Vietnam and the NVA overrun the South, all of Asia will soon be under the sway of communism! That was wrong too. The Taliban Old Guard are all fertilizer at this point. We killed all of them. We're dealing with an entirely different organization now. We've made it clear that we will attack if we're attacked.
Do they wager that another twenty years in the wilderness is worth fostering an organization planning attacks on America, or would they just prefer to rule Afghanistan? That's the wager - it's pure realpolitik.
Holy shit, I didn't even want to respond but such an insanely bad take along with the rest of the board that is handing you SBs and MS to the other guy here. Look, I don't expect anyone on here to be informed. They work long hours and have a lot of expectations of them to the point where I would also any day rather focus on a high-paying career than worthless politics. So I don't blame anyone.
But seriously don't act like you or anyone else here understands the issue at hand. You're literally regurgitating early 2000s/post-9/11 basic bitch talking points. Like if anyone who actually followed politics came on here and saw this discussion they'd be embarrassed that people unironically still make these arguments online I'm sorry it's the truth and again not blaming you or anyone else here. You have important and serious jobs that provide a lot more value to the country at large.
Do you know what the Taliban is? It's current relation the larger project going on in the Middle East? Imagine investing billions of dollars over two decades to build up a foreign (10,000km+ away across an ocean) country's security infrastructure, and it collapses overnight. Is that a successful ROI or will you just throw the "sunk cost fallacy" as defense and hope it eventually sticks?
If you're actually interested I can go into an full argument but I'll leave you with this succinctly:
Understand that all US foreign policy decisions in the Middle East over the last 20 (and quite frankly 70) years have been predicated on maintaining the security of a foreign nation that continues to disobey and spit on the face of Americans through dragging us into never-ending conflicts that are PARADOXICAL to our OWN interests. We continue to serve as the air-force of the VERY SAME people who launched the largest attack of terror on our nation in history, while conveniently having aggression towards those who intend to counter those very same people. Understand the two broad forces at play in the Middle East and their incentives and interest and things will click far easier I promise you.
It's okay though, if only the US had stuck it out for a few more decades, Afghan government forces might’ve been able to retain control of Kunduz, right? Unbelievable. I'd honestly think you were a parody account man I'm sorry no jab intended there truly.
I don’t understand how you got to be an associate in IB and do not understand how the world works and how certain countries can help other countries or cause the demise of other countries. The presence of an entire terrorist run country is not good for the US or its citizens.
Additionally, it’s not good for the economics of Afghanistan or the countries surrounding it. There is a degree called PPE which stands for Politics, Philosophy, and Economics, which seems like you may be in dire need of educating yourself upon. Didn’t you ever take an economics class and see how different countries affect each other.
You seem like you were a dumbass from the start on this topic, but before you posted this, we didn’t know. Now we know for sure that you don’t realize the threat to our nation if we just let terrorists occupy a country. Yes, it’s not good.
muh terrorists
Get a grip, terrorism is just a term used by the U.S. to refer to people that don't like them.
It's not a "terrorist run" country. They're a bunch of Islamic insurgents who want to run Afghanistan as an Islamic theocracy. This was also true in the 90s. They were an Islamic state that harbored terrorists. Our agreement with them involved our eventual withdrawal and a commitment to not attack US forces or harbor terrorists who were aiming to attack the US. Literally none of the 9/11 attackers were Afghani and there are several other states where would-be attackers could set up in and strike out at America or Western Europe. Why don't we have a perpetual presence in all of those quasi-states?
Also worth noting that literally none of this would be a problem if we simply didn't allow any of these people to immigrate. You can't explode shit if you aren't in the country.
stop mainlining neocon/neolib propaganda
I went from supporting the war in Afghanistan, to agreeing with it in principal but disagreeing with how it was executed, to thinking the US should have never even gone in, to now believing that US/NATO foreign policy is fundamentally evil and has not once been about fighting for freedom or democracy.
Do a deep dive on the relationship between the opioid crisis and the NATO occupation of Afghanistan. You almost start sympathizing with the Taliban at that point.
The Russian and Chinese history books kids read in the year 2100 will likely portray American neocons and neoliberals the way our current books portray Hitler.
The question at hand is, looking forward, would it have been better to keep a small peacekeeping force in Afghanistan with soldiers at less risk of dying than a big city police officer or is it better to "own the neocons" by handing over the country to people who will commit mass murder, force 50,000+ refugees probably into the U.S., and harbor terrorists to commit attacks against U.S. assets and allies, thus forcing the U.S. back into Afghanistan anyway?
No. It would be better to withdraw all troops from the Middle East and downsize the military.
As opposed to having the country occupied by US -backed warlords who do the same thing...
There would be no refugees if we didn't get involved. Any refugees that come from a conflict we aren't involved in aren't our responsibility.
You mean like our so-called allies of Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey? In fact, let's explore the history of US and allies supporting terrorist groups...
If you want to go back so much, then go pick up a rifle and head over there.
This is "invade the world, invite the world" in a sentence. You realize we don't need to let any of these people into our country, at all, ever? Right?
Yeah dude! The same Taliban that's killing innocent Afghans and forcing women into marriage has the moral high ground compared to US/NATO!
Who gives a shit how Russian and Chinese history books portray America. China has already literally edited the Bible to fit its political agenda.
Because the winners write the history books, and he thinks China and Russia are going to win. He doesn't say why the US is bad or why the US will lose in 80 years, he says "dO yOUR oWN rESEARCH!!1!!" like a Qanon cult member.
He probably thinks there is a NATO conspiracy behind the Opioid crisis, even though it is mostly caused by prescription drugs or synthetic opioids, neither of which come from poppy fields
lol wait until you learn about what the warlords in the Afghan government we backed think about women's rights and killing innocent people
Don't our textbooks teach that a man who cuts his dick off is a woman?
hit me with the tldr
I gotchu fam. Not going to send this from my work computer so when I get home I'll info dump.
Rising inflation. An embassy about to potentially be stormed/overtaken. Hmmm... Sounds familiar. Try the Jimmy Carter days?
Biden is always on the wrong side of foreign policy.
The only thing surprising to me is that after 20 years Afghanistan is unwilling and/or unable to defend itself. Anyone more knowledgeable on the matter know?
These are all lies. Joe Biden saved us all. The focus right now needs to be in building up the Capitol police force to protect Nancy/AOC.
Taliban seize more Afghan cities, assault on capital Kabul expected
August 13, 2021 5:19 PM EDT
Last Updated an hour ago
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/embassies-get-staff-out-afgh…
Oh look, Biden putting us back into Afghanistan. Who on earth could have seen this coming. You mean he was lying when he pushed back the initial withdrawal date? No...
And to anyone going "BuT tHe TaLiBaN wIlL tAkE oVeR," WHO CARES? It's not our fucking problem. It's not our fucking country. We never should have been there IN THE FIRST PLACE. It's public knowledge that the government lied about the connections between Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11 and merely abused the tragedy to justify invasions they had already had in the works for the better part of a decade. The majority of people in the country do not want us there and it has become nothing but a money pit for defense and building contractors to suck YOUR tax money through a straw.
After 9/11 the invasion made sense. We were furious and wanted to punch something. We wanted to bomb something into oblivion. And we did that - quickly - the problem has been in trying to build a nation where there is no nation. When the Taliban offered to stop harboring Al Quaeda we should have taken the deal.
But at that point we were too preoccupied with another war.
arent there still PMCs there or were they also taken out?
PMCs and the CIA won't leave any time soon
We keep 30k troops in Germany and 26k in Korea. Isn’t it worth 2.5k to help support a government that doesn’t destroy public infrastructure and keep women from going in public alone, working or going to school?
Torn between believing that, and believing that the country is a lost cause we should avoid.
-
Don't give a fuck about fake Afghan women's rights movement sorry
None of my usual trolling in this post; You can argue all day about how we shouldn't have been there in the first place, we shouldn't have tried to build a country, we shouldn't have tried to train their armed forces, etc. But you can't argue that this will be a defining fuck up of the Biden administration. Amazingly our reputation and standing in the world will go below rock bottom now that we betrayed supposed allies yet again and let absolutely everything the past couple of administrations there be undone in a matter of weeks. I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on: You can't deny that the world looks at our country flip-flopping back and forth on policy every 4 to 8 years and sees they can't trust us at all. We simply can't accomplish anything anymore as a country.
Yes and in addition to this we make a worldwide broadcast that we are withdrawing, which is a shitty play on military strategy and of course the Taliban is like ‘oh this is a great time to take over’…
Definitely a disaster in the making for the Biden admin. A shame that we invested 20 years and trillions to train an army that fell apart in a month.
Nonetheless, will be fun to watch the Trump toadies (who screamed for an end to the forever war and thinks Middle Easterners are savages) to somehow find a leg to stand on to criticize Biden.
Trumpists will find a way to contort themselves into a critique of Biden no doubt. They care about principles, they only care about lib owning.
It doesn't take a Trumpie to know Biden's admin completely fumbled the withdrawal situation.
"I think he has been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades,” former Defense Secretary Robert Gates on then VP Joe Biden
How is it that we are not able to just blast the taliban into the ground and end this one and for all? Is the US that scared of bad PR?
Reply to [Memberberries] and his early 2000s state-department talking points for all to see and so it doesn't get buried:
Holy shit, I didn't even want to respond but such an insanely bad take along with the rest of the board that is handing you SBs and MS to the other guy here. Look, I don't expect anyone on here to be informed. They work long hours and have a lot of expectations of them to the point where I would also any day rather focus on a high-paying career than worthless politics. So I don't blame anyone.
But seriously don't act like you or anyone else here understands the issue at hand. You're literally regurgitating early 2000s/post-9/11 basic bitch talking points. Like if anyone who actually followed politics came on here and saw this discussion they'd be embarrassed that people unironically still make these arguments online I'm sorry it's the truth and again not blaming you or anyone else here. You have important and serious jobs that provide a lot more value to the country at large.
Do you know what the Taliban is? It's current relation the larger project going on in the Middle East? Imagine investing billions of dollars over two decades to build up a foreign (10,000km+ away across an ocean) country's security infrastructure, and it collapses overnight. Is that a successful ROI or will you just throw the "sunk cost fallacy" as defense and hope it eventually sticks?
If you're actually interested I can go into an full argument but I'll leave you with this succinctly:
Understand that all US foreign policy decisions in the Middle East over the last 20 (and quite frankly 70) years have been predicated on maintaining the security of a foreign nation that continues to disobey and spit on the face of Americans through dragging us into never-ending conflicts that are PARADOXICAL to our OWN interests. We continue to serve as the air-force of the VERY SAME people who launched the largest attack of terror on our nation in history, while conveniently having aggression towards those who intend to counter those very same people. Understand the two broad forces at play in the Middle East and their incentives and interest and things will click far easier I promise you.
It's okay though, if only the US had stuck it out for a few more decades, Afghan government forces might've been able to retain control of Kunduz, right? Unbelievable. I'd honestly think you were a parody account man I'm sorry no jab intended there truly.
I like memeberries because he clearly has right-thinking inclinations on most issues but isn’t swayed by any ultra-online political movement (whether dissident right or CNN NPC left). He calls it as he see’s it, which isn’t common today.
He’s mostly wrong, sure. But I appreciate the free thought.
Meh, his "right-thinking" inclinations are really a cloud for his true intentions like most mainstream "conservatives" and self-interest which I think we both know what and to who that exactly is without saying. I think at the end of the day these conservative inc. types have harmed us far more than helped. They're just a few years behind on the left on trends typically.
Was just reading about this the other night. Completely surprised by how fast it was retaken/changed back to the way it was... Seriously did not think it would happen so quickly.
I seriously have no words to say reading all of you Americans thoughts on pulling out was a good idea. You guys are literally too selfish and narcistic to think of the greater good for the surrounding and countries that might be retaliated once the Talibans are back in full force (growing poppies and trafficking drugs). How can you guys move so quick to ban a few Latin farmers trafficking opioid and doing gang wars. But not control extremist movement groups with the main source of income is drugs. You guys do realise that when your troops are there, the girls and young ladies get to go to study at home or at a prop-shop class right? People trade with the troops and you guys have access to the local cotton industry. Some of you really need to get a grip on what happens outside of your finance professional life and wake the fuck up. You guys are literally devaluing the dollar anyway what's wrong with spending a few bucks on some rounds of bullets and keeping the Talibans and Al-Qaeda from scheming? And really shut the fuck up about Biden or Trump okay they are both bad just face it and move on grow some better president in the next generation. Smh
Don't give a shit about women's rights in Afghanistan. Also, Taliban has been making money off poppy for the last decade so don't know what you are getting at here??? Farmers have been selling it to the Taliban.......
say that to your mom daughter and wife
America used them to fight their dirty war for them against russia, and left the country destitute. Then they pulled a surprised pikachu face when karma got them back, and started calling them terrorists.
4 Reasons A Potential Taliban Takeover In Afghanistan Matters To The World
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/14/1027375958/taliban-afghanistan-takeover-…
Biden speech 1 month ago:
https://twitter.com/polarisnatsec/status/1426225950312837122
Diversity hire at the War Institute reacts:
https://twitter.com/JennyCafarella/status/1425913843990024193
Islam 3, Liberal Democracy 2.
It’s so funny. If you read into it more you’ll see that the US said they’ll give the Taliban aid once they take over IF they leave the Kabul embassy alone. The only thing Dems know how to do is give money away. Ugh we’re so respected on the world stage again ugh yasssss yass!
Yeah I know. ''Please don't touch my embassy, I'll even pay you''.
China gloating:
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1231540.shtml
In my shitposting, I kept saying the US was tanking in military efficacy at record speed and I'm glad to see the results are showing. Hell, I even agree with Biden the US should have withdrawn, the problem is that it was botched and clearly what the US has spent 20 years and 88 billion dollars creating collapsed like the typical caste of cards. So much for 300k men and airforce. They melted. Probably switched sides in the thousands.
Hopefully this is the American Manzikert, sweeping all the way to the Mediterranean. If Putin was the aggressive leader he's painted to be, Ukr rebels should be marching on Kiev now. That falling a few months after Kabul would be a deserved humiliation.
the positive to come out of this is that the cucks, who complain about the west invading the ME and causing massive civilian casualties and displacement, can now clearly see the region is totally incapable of governing itself.
I say we continue droning talibans.
What? They will govern themselves. Just not the way you like it. Librul democracy is a Western invention. It'll die in the West. It's not universal, nor the final chapter of history. Stay the fuck out of other people's lands.
I don't want an influx of refugees coming to the UK
So what’s the solution for people who disagree with pulling out of Afghanistan? Should we stay there for another 20 years?
At this point, the only way to “win the war” there would be to bomb the place into a field of glass. I’d be down for that though tbh. These people quite literally produce negative value to the world, and we’re up shit’s creek spending 6/7 trillion dollars this year to line democrat pockets and to prevent the economy from falling into a lockdown-fueled depression. What’s the NPV of 20 MOABs versus 20 years of boots on the ground?
What's happening in Afghanistan is appalling but America is collapsing before our very eyes. We have a Manchurian candidate as President, who half the country thinks stole the election. He spent last week making vaccine propaganda with tik tokkers instead of making strategic plans with diplomatic allies. He gave a press conference a few days ago saying it would be impossible for the Taliban to take the country - well the President of Afghanistan just fled the country. Biden is a fucking clown and everyone he is surrounded by is a power hungry, over educated, no real world experience LARPer millennial who thinks they are living the real world "West Wing". We spent $88B training the Afghan army and they fell in a week. General Milley of the Army says he is trying to figure out "white rage" (whatever that is) while the military is in shambles. They abandoned all of the infrastructure and weaponry we all paid for. Now the Taliban has it.
DHS just put out a terrorist warning saying anyone who questions covid restrictions, the results of the 2020 election, or celebrates religious holidays might be prone to domestic terrorism
What country is this anymore? We can't save the world if we can't even save ourselves. We have American gulags already - where the 1/6 people are being held, not getting due process whatsoever. Antifa runs rampant on the West Coast and just stabbed a guy in LA yesterday. Kamala Harris and every other famous person promoted those bail funds encouraging mass violence last year. We have insane inflation and homocides are skyrocketing in every major city. They're weaponizing the intelligence community to surveil populists - see Tucker Carlson being spied on. Corey Bush says I'm going to hire private security but in the same paragraph says defunding the police needs to happen. Safety? Not for you peasants! Normal men can't even protect innocent people being assaulted in the streets because they'll be charged with a hate crime, while the criminal will be let out of jail the next day. They are masking children in schools and teaching them to hate each other based on the color of their skin. Anti-white/asian/jew racism/bigotry is out of control and is being promoted in almost every institution now. We are on the cusp of another covid lockdown, yet the border remains wide open and those illegals aren't being tested. Instead, they are put on planes and busses and sent inside the country.
"Never underestimate Joe's ability to fuck things up." -Obama
No one will ever be held responsible for the disaster they've created.
We live in a banana republic and have no business protecting anyone else. But the silver lining, no more mean tweets!
Amen.
Yeeep. Btw, maybe Ibram Kendi and Robin DiAngelo can have a session with Milley explaining what's up in Afghanistan.
Chill bro we are going to be fine
This attitude makes you part of the problem
Beyond based.
Distilling and oversimplifying 4 years of the Trump disaster down to “mean tweets” shows you’re dealing with a partisan toadie that isn’t worthy of sensible political discussion.
If you think Trump was a disaster, what do you call Biden's first 7 months? You are a brainwashed communist pig. Trump is the only President of my lifetime who isn't a bonafide war criminal supporting a globalist agenda that only serves the .1%.
On the other hand the US has plenty of "allies" that are headed by extremist Islamic governments comparable to the Taliban. There's not that much difference between the Saudi government and the Taliban and we seem to coexist with the Saudis just fine (other than them funding 9/11). So if the people in these places don't have the willpower to fight off extreme Islam then who are we to really try to force them to do otherwise?
I see that "American Taliban" is trending right now on Twitter, as progressives post pictures of MAGA-hat wearers, Proud Boys, etc.
Prediction: the Beltway establishment and pundit class will cope with this Afghanistan humiliation by growing even more vindictive towards the type of Americans who attended Trump rallies.
There's not that much difference between what the Taliban wants and what the American right wants except one justifies it with Islam and one justifies it with Christianity.
Lol at this 110 IQ reddit tier take
Something tells me you know neither about what the Taliban nor American right want.
Conservative Women in the right;
can vote
can go to school (any degree level)
can hold political office
can get a job in any field
can drive
can live independently
can get justice for domestic abuse/assaults/rape
csn wesr whatever they want
To even suggest that the conservative right is comparable to the taliban is ludicrous
Also please don’t Defoe with “but Hasidic Jews! But Amish!” You and I know these are extreme outliers compared to the mainstream conservative right.
Pretty much. Then again, the American right learned a lesson on how to win: be more intolerant. Give no ground.
A very courageous move from the Biden administration.
There were only two solutions - indefinite occupation or pull out and the ensuing collapse we saw today. There was no third way. Whether or not we stayed another two years or another twenty, it wasn't going to make a difference. The previous Afghan government and military had no support among Afghans. Even worse, it would appear that Afghans may in fact want the Taliban in control, which is a bit of a mindfuck. Oh well, their country.
I understand the point of view of those who wanted to stay. A Taliban controlled government may harbor terrorist groups in the future like they did in the late 90s. However, I do not think it was worth the cost. The vast majority of the trillions of dollars we spent in Afghanistan were for absolutely nothing. Quite literally pissed down the drain. Afghans do not want our style of government and do not care about our values. Given the increased cyber capability of US Intelligence, we may be able to keep Islamic terrorism in check from afar without boots on the ground. Also, it appears we are wising up to who funds radical Sunni terror around the globe. Cut off the funding, cut off the terrorism.
Great to see the war machine take a huge L.
How it started.
How's it going
Based Taliban
American Taliban as always right here folks lmao
It's not them mate, it's you.
At this point, the normal conservative American has more in common with the average Chinese, Russian or Muslim than coastal wokes. This is despite the (large) cultural differences. At least they can all agree that... men are men and women are women. Families are a good basic social unit. Teaching sexuality to kids is bad. Police is good, vandals are not.
Now go write an outraged article about how the Taliban triumph lacks gender balance and needs LGBTQIAP+ representation because diversity is a strength. Or screech about the patriarchy. I don't care.
When gun control advocates say that backwards rural people can't defeat the US military...
Yeah, but the US military propping up a weak and corrupt regime abroad and eventually withdrawing is not the same as overthrowing the US government.
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