Credit Suisse - Incoming Class

Hey everybody - I saw a pretty interesting thread yesterday on the IB forum of someone deliberating between CS and a MM boutique, discussion seemed heavily in favour of the boutique citing CS job uncertainty.

as someone who was intending on recruiting CS pretty heavily in the new year I thought I’d try to get a more nuanced discussion going about the up/downside of joining CS next year. Can anyone at the bank (regardless of office) please chime in about morale, opportunities, thoughts about CSFB/the spin out, etc? Thank you

 

The CSFB news was a positive for the investment bank, but there is still a lot of uncertainty and change ahead and they have publicly said they will layoff a number of people. Working at a MM is better than getting your offer rescinded - not saying that's super likely, but it's at least a possibility. Name brand MM is a pretty safe path to lateral to a BB/EB, versus you may never even start at CS

People who are holding accepted CS offers don't have much choice other than to sit tight, but can't say I would go out of my way to recruit at CS right now.

 

Bro… just avoid. The CS “insiders” you are seeking will have no idea.. any insiders that know are definitely not on this website. Really not sure why you are trying to recruit heavily at CS. If you are attracted to that BB brand + boutique model, I would say that its not worth chasing. Far better to go for traditional EBs or BBs

No one is reaching here, we are just discussing a possibility. The upsides are not high either… plenty of successful spun off boutiques out there such as PJT.

 

I don't know your exact situation but ideally you would want to go for a firm where you have a better opportunity to get full time role. That being said, you will find that there are many senior bankers (VPs/Directors) at top BBs who worked for CS in the past. So in my experience, whenever I brought up my offer from CS, they seemed to bring up connections they have at CS and their experience at CS. Therefore, I think CS still has a pretty solid reputation among senior bankers which might be not very true for MMs.

 

Agree with above, was on that thread the other day, I don't think it makes a ton of sense to target CS right now. Unless it's some kind of arbitrage to get BB brand name when the firm is down or something, but obviously there's a reason it would be easier to get in now. Agreed that people holding onto those offers are doing so because they probably need to. I don't think any of us really know what's going to happen, and the insiders likely don't either. I think it makes a lot more sense to take a slight haircut in prestige (I don't think this is being too generous to HW) with the certainty of being able to work there in some capacity, and then moving up later on if that's what you want. If you're coming from an MBA, I think it makes even more sense. As an analyst maybe you roll the dice at CS because you feel like you desperately need a MF exit, but as an MBA, not sure that the difference in prestige is worth it. And you can always move up later, so the prestige difference would just be for a few years. 

Realistically, you're probably fine if you get a CS offer. But in my view the possibility of something happening is big enough that it makes sense to shoot a tier or two lower. 

 

All these deliberations will mean nothing for any of the shops if we have another down year like this…people losing sleep about where CS will come out, especially folks that are “starting to consider recruiting” will do best to follow the news and start making decisions on whether this is the industry to dive into not a single logo follow

 

While it’s true no one can say with absolute certainty that an offer will remain intact if received from CS (or really any bank for that matter), for them to rescind summer offers would be the last straw as that would mean things are far past desperate.

As long as they intend on remaining a player in IB (which nothing leads me to believe otherwise) they need to ensure a steady flow of analysts so I don’t see this changing unless the entire bank goes under (which is unlikely) and surely if that happened it would be as a result of some macro factors that would ripple to other banks as well.

In general, CS is still a strong brand for young analysts - deal flow is good, experience is good, exits are good. A MM would be a different experience than CS but still a good one for sure. I just wouldn’t discount recruiting for CS on fears that your offer would get rescinded. It’s not a very likely occurrence and depending on your goals, CS for an analyst stint may be better than a MM analyst experience (if you want to be a career banker I think maybe MM would be a safer move but for a two years and out situation I personally would go CS)

Just my two cents however

 
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As a current CS associate in a formerly strong coverage group, I would push back. Deal flow is nearly non-existent. Almost every heavy hitting MD has left and the new MDs are not qualified or able to execute at the same level. This is not hyperbole or exaggeration - I am yet to see a single one bring in a new deal. The quality of materials is noticeably worse and they just throw spaghetti at the wall and hope something sticks.

I agree that new joiners jobs/ offers are not in danger, at least for the first year they are there. However, your learning experience / live deal reps will be dramatically different from someone who joined even two years ago.

While the CS name might currently still carry weight, CS alumni and former clients are not blind or stupid. They are realizing that everyone they had great experiences with in years past is now likely long gone.

If you have an offer, stick it out or try to lateral. If you are actively recruiting, be more targeted almost anywhere else including MM or (previously) lower tiered BBs. If it’s your only offer, it is obviously better than nothing and still something to be proud of.

 

Thank you. Ppl on this site have serious hard ons for brand prestige. CS of the future will not be CS of the past from every indicator I've seen. Even these types of perspectives, which encapsulate it perfectly, will probably fall on deaf ears. Why not go to HW and lateral in two years to a BB that you know for a close certainty will provide the experience you want, not one in serious flux downwards like this. 

 

+SB. This is an excellent observation.

As unfortunate as it is, this is probably one of the most sober takes on the reality of the bank. With no deal flow, new joiners are jostling in politics not merit.

If you have an offer - the brand won’t go away for your analyst stint and it’s impossible to do work without new ANL and ASOs but a lot of the above this on the nose as it currently stands. A lot of excitement for MK running it but also a “good bit” of uncertainty as to how it will pan out.

 

I’d choose CS (or any BB for that matter) over a MM boutique. You will learn more valuable skills that you’ll leverage throughout your career.

Regarding the CS context, I think it’s a bit overblown the anxiety at the junior level. Except in certain groups, most MDs have stayed at CS and are high producing MDs. Interestingly, many (not all) of the ones that left were already winding down and/or not delivering. I can think of a couple of names. They all moved to other banks and I’d not be surprised to see them move again in 3-4 years to have another run at a bank for another 3-4 before retiring.

For juniors, nothing changed much really. You’ll still work on deals, maybe your MDs will have to pitch/hustle a bit more given that nobody is knocking at CS door with a mandated deal, but that’s it. You’ll have the same exits.

Just to give some context: when looking at the share of wallet by client and by product, we don’t see any notorious decline in 2022 (and we’ve had MD departures since 2020). Revenues are further down than other banks due to our product exposure (LevFin heavy).

Quality of materials is coming down across banks btw. I talk about it a lot with friends at other banks. Juniors don’t know what they are doing anymore, and there’s a bit of pressure on “taking it easy” with ANL/ASO that’s resulting in D/MD just letting it go and working with lower quality decks.

 

Very frustrating. 5 years ago there was no issue in having a v50 for a normal catch-up call with a client. Not saying it was efficient, but it resulted in very good materials.

Now if you are on v20 of a deck, the pressure to just “kill the page” and finish the book is quite big.

 

We have multiple people who actually work there saying it isn't. But sure your mostly speculation sounds more accurate. 

Also what is the skill difference? You'll spend less time on deal execution, won't have as good a feel for leading processes, far less M&A experience to speak of. The exits from CS do seem to have been great and held up decently, but there's no way that doesn't come down a bit. It's a gamble to go there amidst layoffs is what we're trying to get across. They've laid off juniors, including analysts, so you're in a somewhat vulnerable position. BBs are taking it on the chin way more than MMs/EBs since M&A looks to be the bright spot. CS isn't done with cuts to that end.

 

I work there, and happen to have the perspective of having good friends that are MDs at other banks too.

All BBs are firing people. CS is probably firing at par with others, if not less. The juniors being fired had, in most cases, serious performance issues. They would have been fired 1-2 years ago, but last year it was too busy to fire anyone, and this year management waited for the October 27th strategic review to have spare headcount to fire and deliver to senior management.

I don’t think CS is a risky proposition for juniors to be honest - on the contrary. I see more junior risk at banks that are getting a lot of quality junior candidates in any market (GS, MS). Those banks overhire and overfire, benefitting from an endless supply of good candidates. At CS, given how hard it is to hire lately a the junior level, if you are a good candidate you are pretty much on a safe place.

In terms of skills, there’s much more in banking than running a sell-side. MM boutiques, by design, lack capabilities in capital markets. It’s a fine place to work, but you’d be narrowing your product expertise early on.

 

The response above reads as if the layoffs are a one and done event due to the market slowness but I don't think that is the case. The bank already said they will lose nearly $2billion this coming quarter. 

The bank presumably laid off nearly 3,000 people in the fourth quarter and still needs to cut several thousand more jobs over the next few years. Not all of those jobs will come from the IB, but the firm also needs to continue to trim the size of the IB before the CSFB conversion. Many of the senior bankers are tied to retention bonuses or guarantees making them harder to let go...this makes me believe that future cuts will be more skewed to junior bankers. 

I opted for an MM over CS mostly because my decision came before the strategy announcement and I couldn't get comfortable with the uncertainty. I also wasn't certain if I wanted to recruit for PE which made me slightly more okay going to an MM over a BB. There isn't a right or wrong answer and it's probably a group level decision instead of a firm level decision. An offer at CS is still better than no offer at all or at a no-name firm.

 

Within Capital Markets and Advisory (what you typically think as IB), in the US, headcount reductions in these past couple of months have been mostly due to market slowdown.

Some of the big numbers that you see of headcount reduction targets at Credit Suisse are really reflecting the divestiture of the Securitized Products group or headcount reductions outside of the US. Nothing that someone in M&A, Levfin, or coverage should worry about.

 

I thought you said it was due to poor performance? If it’s market slow down, that’s a cause for concern… 

I also know banks aren’t shy about saying it’s for performance when it’s market-driven (see recent post about 2/3 analyst class on PIP) 

Im sure you’re likely right about where the future layoffs are *purported* to be, but is that something someone outside of the inner circle of information or whatever wants to gamble on. Again, why should I trust management plans to only lay off in those areas.

 

Morale has been low and there have been 2-3 rounds of layoffs depending on group. Cuts have been through all levels, from AN1 to MD and there will be more cuts soon (most likely January).

Definitely not ideal to go to work and worry about getting laid off everyday. There still is a lot of uncertainty at the firm and it will remain for the next couple of years. With that being said, still not sure if I’d take the MM over CS but don’t have much experience

 

Rumor has been swirling around for awhile. Basically confirmed at this point. Pretty messed up to be laying people off a month before bonuses.

 
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