Do you think systemic racism is real? If so, why?
Curious to hear people’s perspective on this. I totally understand that certain groups of people (I belong here) are at a severe disadvantage compared to other groups, but is this really due to systemic racism?
We often hear people claim that problems are solely caused by systemic racism/oppression, but no one actually stops and defines what systemic racism actually means.
I understand that there was systemic racism in the past (e.g., Jim Crow), but now that there are no racist laws, does it really exist?
This might be the worst place possible to post this question. You will lose countless brain cells by the time this thread dies if it gains any traction.
And somehow my non answer was still more productive than whatever this discussion sought to provoke. This is an incendiary topic that is tangentially related (at best) to IB. What’s the point of writing out a long, nuanced response when the response (if you believe systemic racism persists) will be “cope harder diversity kid” or (if you don’t) “shut up MAGAt” or some stupid one liner. This site is not a sociology forum, it’s a finance forum. This is a stupid post that will create stupid discussion. You know what you believe, it’s probably not gonna be changed by some random person here so why bother.
I 1000% agree with this. Why would you think asking a bunch of white and Asian males (and lets be honest most of the male species in general is already fighting for their lives to show any empathy for anything whatsoever) such a nuanced question like that is a good idea lmao. Ofc systemic racism exists, DUH, but nobody cares. If you’re a minority on here you’re better off acknowledging systemic racism exists, let it motivate you, and then gleefully scroll thru posts where those aforementioned white and Asian dudes bitch and moan about diversity recruiting or affirmative action. It’s honestly one of my favorite past times.
Lol systemic racism is a hoax perpetrated by leftists to keep themselves relevant amongst minorities in election cycles. The only way they can look like they're doing something productive is if they say they're trying to solve a problem, even though that problem doesn't actually exist.
Let’s refrain from comments like “Don't let the colonizers enslave you and you don't become a slave.” That’s a horrendous comment.
Yes studies as recently as 2019 show if you block out the name then minorities see higher recruiting or networking email responses and resume call backs. I don’t think anything should be done about it besides spreading awareness. And I’m not sure why society chooses to help some minorities with quotas and not others when all are disadvantaged
Typically, those that subscribe to the idea that "systemic racism" is real are more fixated on the disparities between "x" group and "y" group.
Disparities, as they materialize in the real world, are often multivariant in nature: meaning that a multitude of variables cause that disparity to materialize. I am sure that discrimination (historical or emergent) would be a part of an equation that yields disparate outcomes/positioning/starting points but to say that variable is the whole reason why said disparity exists is sloppy thinking at best (relying on univariance) and disingenuous at worst (straight up lying for some other reason).
The presumption that "equality" is the norm (in the original state of "nature") is false but many believe [even if they recognize that disparities are the norm and unfortunately A LOT of people don't] that we can backwards engineer equality through policy and that's a view I do not hold. In other words, no, it is not real just another God for the run-of-the-mill secularist.
Nvm
Very well said. Agree 100%!
The other side to this is simply the point that life isn't fare. We all have to deal with the cards we are dealt. Is it easier for some? Sure. Who cares? At the end of the day, those who can, can. Unfortunately, only a small percentage of them actually do.
Is systemic racism real? Yes.
Is it being solved with more systemic racism? Yes.
Is something systemic able to be solved in a matter of years? No.
Is a generational / education / change of mentality needed? Yes.
Can this occur with a “getting back to x” culture? No.
Is that exactly what is happening? Yes.
Lol systemic racism is just an excuse for underperforming minorities to create a victim mindset. The idea that every institution and system that we have is built on racism is an absolutely laughable notion. The only racist practices still left today are affirmative action and diversity programs. People who care so much about racism don't actually give a shit about it. They want racism when it benefits them. What did I do as an asian male to deserve being punished in the recruiting process? I didn't own any god damn slaves, and neither did my immigrant parents. In before one of you NPC retards hits me with the "WhEn YoU'Re UsEd tO pRiViLeGe, eQuALiTy fEeLs LiKe oPpReSsIoN". In short, bigfoot and systemic racism are very similar. Neither actually exists
Is always funny when someone complains about entitlement and victim mindset by feeling entitled / victim. There are many factors that go into selection at jobs/schools and just accept that life is not fair. If someone gets ahead because affirmative action is no better/worse than someone getting ahead because of a family relationship / looks etc.
It doesn’t matter if it’s nepotism or affirmative action, hiring for any reason outside of someone’s capabilities is wrong. If I found out my bank hired me because of surface level characteristics and not what I can do I wouldn’t be happy.
There are always going to be some ignorant people in any society. That being said, racism in the US was more or less wiped out by the 1990s-2000s, until the second term of the Obama administration. The high water mark for race relations in the country probably was the Chapelle Show.
You can't claim you're systemically oppressed when: your protests/riots are allowed when small businesses are forced to shut down for "health", basically every Fortune 500 company writes checks to BLM in 2020, and I'm just getting started
The thing is most people complaining about systemic racism are upper middle class white women who really get scared around minorities - it's clear none of these people came from actually diverse working class communities. People in working class communities who actually interact between ethnicities EXPECT some kind of joking racial humor, and as long as you're not personally insulting them then they don't take it as disrespect - and they'll dish some back to you about unspiced chicken or whatever. The only ones perpetually offended about stuff that should not be considered offensive are bored upper middle class white women, or obese black women
Agreed. Also love Avenue Q.
The fuk are you talking about??
Doesn't matter what randos on the internet think. You should direct this energy to reading the countless articles/books/anthologies written on this exact topic by actual experts in the field and then triangúlate your own informed answer.
Through my study which I consider to be rigorous - it is real. I won't explain because I can't as eloquently as a professor on this exact subject would. Some other person based on their study will believe it's not real. Doesn't really matter, but this is a recipe for an uninformed, unproductive, shit show of a thread.
An overwhelming amount of literature in the humanities nowadays is complete and unsubstantiated horse shit which is written specifically to conform w/ the dogma of wokeism and w/ the express purpose of securing the author a spot in the technocracy, which is a collection of highly-educated "experts" who lack any modicum of common sense, wisdom, ethics, or any semblance of objective morality.
Why should they care if the narrative that they've created is actually wildly destructive for minorities? They've demonstrated that they are true believers in the leftist religion and have effectively become clergy in that garbage religion.
Lmao yeah not engaging you definitely have some romanticized prehistoric conservatism gripe that goes nowhere on this forum as it always does. God bless ya man
Systemic racism is just racism. Does racism exist? Obviously. It effects people like a "system" in different ways based on a design. You can guess which groups are affected and where. "Systemic" can also refer to how capitalism attaches itself to racism hence "capitalism" is racist rhetoric. Why do you think some racial groups hold less global wealth? Check the back of your t-shirt. Those people are poor because they don't contribute "value" hence some groups under capitalism are organized like back to front office compensation then equity owners. Systemic racism is just another world for racism as it exists under capitalism.
It's a really strange situation because racism is everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
For example, if a young black male in street clothes and a doo rag casually walks down the street in my predominantly white neighborhood, there is a very good chance that he will get suspicious looks at the very least and have the police called on him at the very worst.
If the same young black man showed up to any company in town for a job interview in a suit with a good resume, he would have an equal chance to get the job as any other good candidate.
So, yes. Racism is very very real but I think it is predominantly associated with fear of crimes and white people still seeing minorities as dangerous. That doesn't mean that anyone is being racist toward a random black guy who works at KPMG.
What I think gets conflated is the idea that because police harass random black kids all the time then surely people must also be racist across every part of society and the accountant at KPMG must also struggle against the same racism. And from my experience, I just don't see that. In many ways, it's more socioeconomic than anything. White folk are scared to death of poor blacks but have no negative feelings to the middle or upper class. Where the racism really comes is that attitude is often different for poor whites because they're just "rednecks" or "good ole boys".
This idea that wearing a suit and tie is wearing "white man's clothes" and wearing a doo rag is "black man's clothes" which is what your racism piece is touching is a ridiculous assumption on several grounds. The easiest is that rural white people are not wearing suit and tie, and they too in fact can wear doo rags. Gangs are not solely restricted to blacks.
People raising suspicious eyebrows isn't entirely a function of race. I guarantee you if an armed hillbilly showed up in overalls your upper class neighborhood would be getting suspicious looks. Conversely, if a banker went to applachia in a suit and tie he would get strange looks. This is purety a function of not fitting in to the appropriate subcuture rather than anything else.
No, I mean exactly what I said. If a white trash hillbilly walks down my street, he will have a much lower chance of having the cops called on him than a black kid from the ghetto.
But does a white guy in a suit have a lower chance of having the cops called on him than a white trash hillbilly? Yes of course. Don't disagree there.
Unlikely. He may get some looks which I doubt but anyways, but go to a non-white neighborhood in Philly or DC, and you'll probably get assaulted if not worse, get that posted on TikTok like it's a comedy reel, and have police file a report but not do anything.
Widely held racist views by white people. As a white person who has walked through a bunch of sketchy neighborhoods, this will not happen to you if you have a head on your shoulders.
I think "systemic racism" is at times used sloppily with the notion of the "cycle of poverty". Wikipedia does a pretty good job of touching on all the major points of the theory which you can find here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty)
I will just talk about a few of these
Many of these circumstances can be changed by legislation. Bringing back blue collar jobs, providing even the poor with high quality schooling, and creating organizations to provide young males with a father figure would go a ways to help break this cycle.
There is no question that these circumstances are fueled by selfishness, greed, a disdain for the poor, and perhaps racism. The actual percentages of each that contributes to this (I assume the term "systemic racism" places 100% weight on the racism piece) are impossible to guess.
P.S. For people wondering the reason why AA is meaningless is because the root causes of actual poverty are never addressed. Lowering the SAT threshold is meaningless if those kids never got the training to do the SAT in the first place (or even literacy training). Similarly, providing easier technicals in finance interviews is meaningless since most inner city kids have no clue about what high finance even is. Diversity programs almost entirely benefit those who are upper middle class and maybe middle class. It very rarely benefits the poor, because there are structural obstacles that block the poor from reaching the threshold set by diversity programs that is out of their control.
Don't forget that providing greater benefits for single moms has created a systematic incentive for couples to not marry and makes fathers feel less responsible when they leave.
Unfair incarceration has always been an issue for minorities but where the fatherless issue really started exploding was in the 60s around the time of Johnson's Great Society welfare programs.....ironically a time when segregation was ending rather than getting worse.
Johnson's Great Society was an issue, but what people forget is that this is also the same time when globalization started to take hold, and blue collar jobs were outsourced. The argument that welfare incentivizes one to remain in poverty is corrrect, but that argument rests on the marginal effort it takes to break out of the cycle of poverty. If you're a black man in Detroit, and there's a factory hiring down the street, I promise you that almost everyone is going to take the factory job over food stamps, because the income is higher, and it provides a defined sense of purpose. Now there's no factory, and as I mentioned such neighborhoods lack jobs at all, so what is required to break out of the cycle of poverty (being educationally at a level schools don't provide and/or relocating when no savings exists) is much harder, and hence people revert to welfare.
I'm not a huge fan of welfare, but Republicans only talk about cutting welfare and for the most part do nothing to bring blue collar jobs back or improve public education because ("free markets"). "Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps" should meaning letting down a few ladders so that one can climb up the mountain. Taking all the ladders away and the little food that that person has is a counterproductive solution only going to increase the wealth inequality in this country.
I agree on the fatherlessness point and how education budgets are wasted on admins
However on the education point - you could have the best school in the world but it's not going to help if you have a culture that isn't engaged in learning
This is a pretty common misconception that assumes that poor kids are lazy/unmotivated. I have been to both poor and rich schools during my scholing days. Poor kids for the most part undestand that they need to get a high school degree in order to get a job.
To substantiate this let's look at Baltimore City Public School graduation rates
https://www.baltimorecityschools.org/data#:~:text=Four%2Dyear%20graduat….
Even in Baltimore, one of the worst public school districts, 70% get the high school degree. The problem is that the curriculum in the poor schools has been diluted so poorly and lacks teaching life competencies, that when said kids do graduate they have 0 chance of being able to go to college since the rich kids have been learning in courses that teach the "right" things to prepare one for the rigor of colleges. Rich schools have far more honors and advanced classes (such as AP) compared to poor schools. When a group of kids have been taught with superior education for 12 years, kids who do the "right" thing (complete hw, do exams, etc) in subpar schools have no chance of bieng able to match them
Some people will try to use a "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" argument and argue such poor kids should use online resources such as Khan Academy or YT or the public library to learn more advanced topics self study for SAT/ACT. But the fact is when you see that many households are single parent, and the mom is working full time to raise the family, the most she can do is check her kid's grades periodically and see that they are passing. She can't do much more than that and can't afford a private tutor to try to help the kids. Additionally a majority of people (including myself) need that structured learning environment to motivate themselves and do well. Can you imagine trying to learn advanced material over a decade all by yoursefl without a teacher and classmates? I can't.
Systematic racism - maybe / no.
Cycle of poverty - YES.
Important to use the right terminology if it’s going to be posted on a forum with both WASPY kids from CT or blue collar raised kids.
The system doesn't start when you are looking for a job, it goes back to when you were born education, daily life activities. Simple things like having to outperform your counterparts to be considered just as good or dressing perfect to be seen as a serious person. Say you go to a public school having to overcome the chances of getting caught up while also trying to be a top student and still trying to have friends that you have grown up with. Lets not also recognise that the top schools tend to have more wealthy individuals than not which who are mostly white.
Education is a big factor to bringing generations out of poverty or keeping them in it, be it financial education or just getting a degree. Do you know what is like to walk on a golf course and everyone is just staring at you like why is he here. I have been lucky that my mother had the mindset that she would do anything to give her children a good education, which meant her struggling to put me through private school and other activities after school, not every parent/s can do that.
Kanye's Lyrics from All Falls Down also kinda explains the situation
I say, "Fuck the police," that's how I treat 'em
We buy our way out of jail, but we can't buy freedom
We'll buy a lot of clothes, but we don't really need 'em
Things we buy to cover up what's inside
'Cause they made us hate ourself and love they wealth
That's why shorty's hollerin', "Where the ballers at?"
Drug dealer buy Jordan, crackhead buy crack
And the white man get paid off of all of that
To say that it doesn't exist is dumb can black people do better yes, can white people do better yes. In terms of politics it pays for black people to be on either side which both do nothing to help. Get paid as a black conservative to bash poor black people and get paid to bash every white person and make them feel guilty for their ancestors. The media doesn't help the portrayal of black people either.
Mockumentary blackAf on Netflix also explains a lot of things quite interesting.
Roland Fryers piece on black students acting "white" https://www.educationnext.org/actingwhite
Black Ivy a Revolt in Style
Yes, systemic racism exists. Not really a matter of opinion.
Can’t wait to lose brain cells on this one. Yeah, it’s obviously real. But much like critical race theory, really dumb people have completely bastardized the concept to the point where it isn’t being used correctly. you can think institutional racism is legit without thinking reparations or other extremist views are needed or warranted. Let’s define institutional racism:
Institutional racism is the existence of systemic, institutionalized policies, practices and economic and political structures that place minority racial and ethnic groups at a disadvantage in relation to an institution's racial or ethnic majority.
Just off the top of my head, I can name a few obvious ones that fit this definition:
Now, just because black people experience bias in the hiring market, doesn’t mean Asians don’t also. Or that there isn’t institutional racism against other minority groups. However, it’s empirically proven there generally are more harmful stereotypes associated with black people. Now, someone on the far right might say, “Well yeah, they also commit more crimes and deserve the reputation etc.” In my view that’s irrelevant because either way one can’t deny if you are a black individual trying to succeed in the world who isn’t committing crimes etc. you still have the bias that you do pinned on you unfairly, which will make others view you with a suspicious eye. This is pinned on you in a way that an Asian or white person wouldn’t experience.
Some of these comments are so ignorant, so let’s also put a nail on the, “my family was immigrants and they got from the bottom to the top, so why can’t they?” The black American experience isn’t like being an immigrant. The people were enslaved and non-educated and have severe distrust of the system. There are deep seeded cultural beliefs, lack of education, and an otherness, that hold back the culture and it isn’t helped by now rhetoric that reinforces black people as minorities that can’t succeed because the whole world is stacked against them.
You can believe in institutional racism and still think the current rhetoric is ignorant. It’s called nuance.
First I agree with this but the question are these institutional or government supported and therefore systematic? That matters for policy and finding a solution. As an example, school budgets are based on real estate tax, gerrymandering can be used for both sides and is often done. The biases in criminal is personal ignorance and not government supported.
So is affirmative action or putting others at disadvantage the most effective tool. As a low income mexican I always say affirmative action benefit POC who were already upper or middle class or higher (the one guy who is 1/8 native america, the rich cuban from Miami etc) and very few people like me.
The question wasn’t what the solution is, it was whether it exists or not. Agreed a better and very complicated discussion is what can be done to improve outcomes. If only liberal groupthink was oriented around solutions rather than just outrage at problems, it might be a platform I could come to terms with and somewhat respect. I’m with you that sadly affirmative action policies often aren’t the solution because they continue to advantage rich individuals and from my experience they often harm students in many cases by putting them in environments they can’t succeed in.
No. Libs are pandering and trying to make division to get votes.
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