Is the Jefferies / UBS hate warranted?
Been seeing a lot of people on here clowning Jefferies and UBS as having shitty culture and just being bad to work for. Wondering if these claims have any merit?
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Lots of exposure to both banks as a senior and throughout my career:
Not every UBS group is terrible culturally, every Jefferies group is. UBS hasn't had any juniors die from overworking, Jeff has. UBS has a few toxic teams that are really bad such as the tech and FIG teams, but Jeff's is a more systemic problem. UBS best team in LevFin also pretty sweaty but by all accounts not toxic, just a lot of flow. Most of Jeffries is toxic for the juniors (but great for the seniors; just how the bank structures pay and culture). Jefferies hasn't changed culturally from the days of being known as the bank that hired all the MDs fired for being toxic but rainmakers.
They both are basically the same tier of firm by league tables in the US though so natural they get grouped together to some extent, for LTM they are in the 9-12 range together with both banks having much stronger LevFin franchises. Jeff doesn't have a balance sheet per se which means less regulation leading to them to win on being able to bring super highly levered deals to market, UBS is basically a sponsors bank, and wins through that. Both are pretty similar franchises in terms of broader strengthens and even size these days. It's just kind of natural for them to be talked about in lockstep, but not accurate on the cultural front.
However think on the culture front Jeff is systemically worse (have had a culture issue back from when I was recruiting) but UBS has some pretty horrible groups post-merger (not as long of a reputation for bad reputation). Every bank has a very toxic groups btw, think UBS ones are a bit loud in particular because pre-merger the currently toxic groups were known for pretty decent culture at least afaik.
Edited just to clarify some points.
terrible culturally like they never let their analysts leave the office?
Sounds like someone who got fired from Jefferies for not bringing in business. I’m there and I love it - my team’s great.
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At UBS and it seriously sucks in most groups and would not recommend. I imagine Jefferies is worse though
What do you mean by “toxic” or most groups sucking? Like do the MDs just not care or is it just extremely cutthroat
Various threads about this. However, structurally Jeff has a few problems imo that make it uniquely toxic.
A) seniors are told that they only get paid on what they kill, so your judged solely on individual performance. This discourages cross collobaration and means seniors have to work a lot more on pitching + are just generally more stressed. b) This kind of culture means nobody gets promoted to MD at Jeff basically and MDs don't help juniors build their book ; everyone brought in are bought on for the appeal of a cutthroat culture and the potential for higher pay or people who were fired for one reason or other (mostly bad culture but good deal flow MDs as they are really the only MDs it makes sense for a platform to bring in if they want flow but don't care about culture like Jeff). C) Jefferies basically has no care for its juniors, hilariously understaffed and underpaid even relative to banking since again they aren't looking to groom juniors to be future rainmakers like most large full service banks. Also culture flows from the top, when your the place where all the other banks toxic MDs go: naturally your culture ends up being quite toxic.
edit: I just realized I replied to your other comment not your reply to mine, apologies typed this out on phone really quickly.
Some groups suck because they lack deal flow
Some groups suck because of the culture
Some groups suck because of the hours
Some groups are 1/3, some 2/3, some 3/3
Any insight on GIG/Sponsors Culture?
Yknow Jeff really must suck culturally that you got WSO UBS people defending it. I mean that firm might be the most hated right now on this forum, and even they are saying Jeff has worse culture.
Just to give a different opinion, got SA2026 at Jeff, Had a campus recruiting process and got to meet tons of people including MD's, Were the chillest group of bankers I networked with. Of course they could be putting on a facade cause it's recruiting, but it felt natural tbh.
I'm sure jeff has seen negative press especially with the deaths, and prob told leadership to be nicer. Btw this is only talking about personality, haven't worked yet but seems to be consensus that there is no WLB even for banking standards
Lol they’re lying
It's called recruiting, they are marketing to you. I have various friends across the year who worked at Jefferies, and the vast majority seemed dead inside because of their job. I am not saying other firms or IB as a whole is a nice career for WLB or anything and long hours are expected in most good groups, but there's a huge difference in working long hours with people you get along with or at least long hours in a collegiate + collaborative environment vs the hell-hole that is Jefferies. You will soon find out. It's still a great place to start your career in terms of getting reps in, just also the most toxic shop on the street within its broader tier of banks in terms of reputation, and it's not even particularly close.
Wow no kidding you’re saying the girl you haven’t even taken out on a date yet said she would suck your dick real good if you did? Why don’t you marry her and see what happens in 2 years when you’ll be begging to get out of the relationship bc she’s a crazy bitch
It’s like complaining about how your caviar is too salty - you’re still eating caviar and sipping champagne at the end of the day
This sub is hyper focused on prestige and rankings, when imo it’s better to be the top guy at a good firm and these are all good firms.
jeff is the best bank i love jeff
I am leaving Jefferies after my 2-year stint wraps up this summer, and i hate the low pay relative to the hours i work, and dislike the handler double standards.
Having said all that, if you value a great learning experience like I did, I would take JEF over UBS any day of the week. Jefferies has much better deal flow, has a few coverage/product groups that are the best at what they do - Energy, Healthcare, LevFin, etc., and in my view has much more consistent deal flow.
In my 2 years here, I will have worked on over $15 Bn of closed M&A transactions, and am exiting to a MF this summer. If I have to choose between shitty deal flow and shitty culture or great deal flow and shitty culture I'll take the second every day of the week. For me, I knew that 2 years of grinding it out was worth the trouble of working at a bank like Jefferies given the upside. If you are in Energy / Healthcare, you'll have as good of an exit as any other bank, if you are in other groups then you'll still have good exits and have much more consistent reps than UBS.
We get stuck up on culture and yeah it makes the day-to-day worse but when you are interviewing for the next role what matters is the experience you have had not how good your wlb is or whether your associates aren't dicks. Unfortunately that's the reality of how interviews go. For me, it was all about the delayed gratification - if you think about it differently that's fine too.
If you have a better offer than go for it obviously, but outside of the top 7-8 banks, I would take JEF over almost any other bank including UBS.
do you have any advice for an incoming analyst?
UBS and Jeff are toe to toe in league tables
I cannot speak to buyside exits as I am too senior for that to be top of mind for me, but given league table standings and UBS having a stronger historic reputation, I would assume it exits better.
As to the deal flow claim: for M&A for LTM, what are you talking about? I understand you want to rep your bank, and there are some valid reasons for Jeff over UBS (less variability in groups being the most appealing one: Jeff's worst groups are significantly better than UBS's worse ones and the best UBS groups aren that much stronger than Jeff's). However, on the broad scales the firms aren't that different deal flow wise, I don't think a top analyst at either will get significantly different transactional experience assuming both end up at top groups. In fact UBS top groups are slightly stronger on average. Both have strong LevFin franchises but UBS ranks higher on lead lefts for sponsor deals, more LBOs, and just overall lead lefts for LTM, YTD, and 2024. For sponsors UBS has more overall deal flow; this is in large part because the UBS business model is based around sponsor deal flow but it's a top tier franchise in the space to the extent Jefferies isn't. UBS has some industrials subsectors that they are top in like paper and packaging and chemicals, and overall on average has significantly more flow in the broader industrials space. Jeff however is significantly stronger in every other category (thus precious claim about variability and the similar broader league table rankings despite UBS's strongest groups being better than Jefferies ones).
Also important to note Jeff has a very strong energy franchise and some tech flow whilst UBS has no energy and no tech flow, those are pretty big sectors of the broader M&A market and the fact both banks rank similarly in overall LTM M&A transaction size suggests that the other groups at UBS broadly outperform Jeff.
Overall, I think the transactional experience from both will be pretty similar and as much as I despise UBS post merger the culture is still clearly better than Jeffries. I think if you have an offer from both, picking UBS is the clearly right choice given similar deal flow and better culture, especially if you end up at a top group. Btw, would not define either Jefferies or UBS deal flow as great, both are fine and in a certain tier but overall way below the truly elite players. They are in that 1.5 tier where some groups are competitive but the broader franchise really isn't elite completely yet.
That's exactly my point though, the standard deviation of experience on average at UBS makes it a worse experience than Jefferies. At Jefferies, you aren't fighting with 30 other analysts over the 2 deals that account for a major chunk of the group's live deals in any given year.
Also flawed is your argument around top groups at UBS being stronger than top groups at Jefferies. The top groups at Jefferies would be Energy -> Healthcare -> LevFin. See below for some facts ($s in Bn, 01/2024 - present, USA - Merger Market):
"Also important to note Jeff has a very strong energy franchise and some tech flow whilst UBS has no energy and no tech flow,..... UBS broadly outperform Jeff.": On a combined basis, Jefferies is ranked 9th since 1/2024 ($239 Bn across 238 deals) vs. UBS which is ranked 11th ($207 Bn across 71 deals) so about 20% higher deal flow at Jefferies accompanied with higher volumes which generally means more analysts get exposed to better deals vs. UBS.
My comment above was pretty accurate in that if you have an offer from the top 7-8 banks you should take that but as the numbers highlight, Jefferies is better than UBS in just about every coverage group. UBS is extremely bloated and that makes for a worse analyst experience where the analysts will be stepping over the others to try to get better staffings and be on the few live deals floating around. At Jefferies you don't really have to worry about that when there has been over 230 deals announced since the beginning of 2024 with an average deal value of $1 Bn. Not to mention that the top coverage groups at Jefferies outperform the coverage groups at UBS (as visible above).
Am at DB, and am exiting to a UMM shop (~10Bn fund size) albeit with slightly less deal experience and probably a better cultural experience. Idt this is unique to Jefferies, and think firms like DB give you the same experience. Also whether you like it or not, many HHs still don't consider Jefferies for some opportunities that they do DB for on average. You can obviously make up for this by having gone to a target school, but on average think DB still exits slightly better when looking at the aggregate, especially for the top groups. I am. not going to say we are a better M&A bank; we aren't, but I think DB is close enough to Jefferies to where it's not going to be a huge difference and DB has just as strong of a LevFin franchise as Jefferies.
From what I’ve seen on here it looks like DB was a way better culture than Jefferies and UBS with much stronger groups in sponsors levfin and REGLL which is also a plus
Aren’t most mega funds pretty sweaty too with poor culture? I get that sucking up the pain for experience is worth it but at some point you gotta live you life.
What was the number of deals you did there?
Most are and the one I am going to is sweaty as well but I have known that team for 1.5 years now including a good amount of time before I accepted the offer there and like the culture of the team. The group works hard but it has almost no turnover (voluntary or involuntary) and that to me is a big green flag.
Honestly, not afraid of being in a sweaty place (my reasoning above for not liking Jefferies was the bad pay to work ratio and the general double standards), just want to make sure I am reasonably comped which I will be at the MF.
I have worked on 6 closed transactions over $1 Bn with an average value of $2.7 Bn and a median of $2.3 Bn.
Idk about generally but Jefferies Houston is absolutely nuts. Comp isn't even as crazy as it used to be a few years ago so now juniors just get assfucked 24/7 for average bonuses -- gotta feel for the analysts in JEF energy those 2 years are basically hell
what was comp like a few years ago
There were analysts making 300k+ at one point. place was nuts
Worked at JEF for several years and loved it. Granted that it takes sharp elbows (being a dick) to thrive there.
Just due to being attacked by the previous An 2 Jeff above. I did a Bloomberg search for M&A only, since it seems like the An2 agreed with the ED above on Industrials and LevFin/Sponsors points. I will admit that DB is worse than both UBS and Jeff based on the data, but looking at the data has only convinced me Jeff and UBS are in the same tier roughly in the US . Thus, UBS clearly seems like the better choice (outside of energy related things since Jeff has a top franchise and UBS doesn't appear at all) given comparable deal flow but better culture + historic BB reputation. I still maintain DB over both since significantly better cultures, but I am aware that is not a common opinion in this forum. All this data is from M&A Bloomberg league tables for the US in particular. :
All in all, UBS and Jefferies are clearly in the same tier, with UBS showing stronger performance YTD and on larger deals, while Jefferies leads in volume and verticals like energy and healthcare. Unless you're specifically targeting energy, UBS IMO likely edges out with their historic BB reputation, better culture and comparable deal flow.
Edit: downvoting the giving of pure data points is pretty wild; what has this forum come to?
Just wondering about the numbers, how is Jeff industrials for example at 9bn LTM when they were the lead advisor on a $18bn deal (SRS / Home Depot)? Seems like all of the websites that track M&A are different
That deal isn't classified as industrials in most tracking platforms in specific. Generally industrials is the hardest group to get league table for because at most banks it's a very broad group that includes more than purely industrial businesses. There are often faux-tech, consumer, materials, transport, etc. businesses that are covered out of industrial groups but aren't part of industrials as an actual sector. The industrial league tables are only about the actual industrial sector but actual industrial groups don't cover only industrial sector if that makes sense. The broad nature of industrials is also why it's sweaty as a general rule across the street.
Amongst the groups being discussed in this thread, UBS is clearly better than DB or Jef in the broader space that an industrials groups cover, but think Jef is also significantly better than DB in the space. Jef also is actively growing their industrials coverage whilst UBS doesn't seem as inclined to do so post the brining in off CS seniors (who are a lot of the reason UBS industrials is strong either way).
Why is this the most contentious thread on WSO right now? Almost every comment has downvotes. I think the other commenters are losing the forest for the trees here. I don't think anyone who has commented here is going to argue that we are arguing between or about firms that are super far off from each other. Just because I would recommend picking UBS doesn't mean there aren't valid reasons to pick Jeff or UBS based on your particular goals, interests, and what you value.
This is not like picking between Jeff vs Nomura or something to where the vast majority will pick Jef regardless of goals, interests, and what they value. Also not even sure how it turned into a UBS vs. Jeff as a whole thread, the question was initially asking about the culture which I think everyone is seemingly in agreement that Jeff is one of if not the worst on the street at a systematic/broader level.
It’s pretty much universally known across the street that Jeff culture is the worst out there. Most buy side guys will agree. And yes, that is top to bottom. Not to mention, there might be 1-2 female MDs in that entire bank…if that’s any indication of the culture
Absolutely agree with you. The overall opinion of Jeff in this forum can be attributed to a large part of forum demographics. Forums like this on average care less about culture because for you to be very active on WSO you are probably super into finance and not as caring about cultural aspects. That also is probably why forums like these will overstate or relatively overrate Jeff IMO. Also realistically most people on forums like this are going to be non-diverse males as that makes up most of those interested in finance.
Yeah I don’t even understand how UBS vs Jefferies culture is remotely in the same ballpark. UBS historically was always known as a pretty decent lifestyle bank. That has shifted a bit since Sergio returned to helm and the big push to grow the IB, but it’s still not remotely close to as toxic or hardo as 90% of the groups on the street. I don’t get how UBS vs Jefferies is even comparable, one head of bank posts on Instagram more than he is in actual meetings (Handler) and the other you couldn’t find a single person on the street with bad things to say about them (Marco Valla).
The questiin should be... is the hate on Deutsche warranted? Deutsche is catching strays left and right.
I don’t have a horse in this race, but the Jeff bonus clawback is insane and I’m sure it is meant to marginally improve junior retention. I still don’t know why anyone with a choice would choose to get paid that way, particularly when you are getting absolutely worked.
They are very smart guys. My bank co-advised with them on something and they were great. But I was just sitting there thinking about how our team was getting paid higher headline bonuses AND all-cash / no deferred / no clawback.
UBS doesn’t have a good culture anymore, just a fact. Culture on par with JEFF as someone who has worked in both
On the research side, JEF has this explicit "career switchers" recruiting objective that I can't see as anything more than an attempt to get people 3-5 years into a corp dev position to switch for roughly the same pay and worse hours just so those people can say they work "on Wall Street."
I'd not join Jefferies at any level. It serves only lone wolf MDs who don't give a shit about collaboration that are looking to maximise earnings before retirement. If you have no other choice then take a role as a junior there but lateral when the market picks up.
UBS is a different beast but suffers from a culture clash post merger. CS abd UBS were never alike culturally so this is expected.
I have had a few years of exp at Jefferies. For anyone who is too young to remember - I would just say that Sage Kelly type of character is not an outlier there at Jefferies at the senior level. Culture is that MDs don't give a shit about juniors, and Rich Handler definitely don't give a shit about the MDs... so go figure.. lol
UBS is way worse culturally imo
It's bad but nowhere near Jef. Jef hired Sage Kelly and that wasn't a rarity culturally. The firm hires all the people fired from other firms for their bad culture. UBS is bad, and some groups are really bad, but Jef's best groups are equal to UBS's worst.
The big difference IMO is how these firms marketed their selves. Jef marketed themselves as a place to get transcational experience but experience cutthroat culture, which is exactly what it is. Pre-Merger UBS marketed itself as a good culture shop, but the culture at quite a few groups is toxic, not to a Jef level, but pretty toxic. I think your comment, to some extent, solely reflects your own experiences, which is valid, but not really comparative. Jef is Wall Street toxicity central, UBS nor any other firm can compare.
The junior experience (analyst, associate) at UBS is really bad. Cannot recommend.
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