UK SA 2024 Recruiting Has Been A Bloodbath?
Final year student at Oxford/Cambridge here. I am completely fucking lost with what I'm going to do next year.
I did an IB summer last year at Evercore/Lazard/CVP and unfortunately did not get a return offer. I recruited again for summers this year and made it to the latter stages for a fair few processes in IB, PE, & HF, but didn't get any offers.
Is recruiting meant to be this tough; I would like to think I have a fairly strong profile and put enough work into networking and interview prep. Essentially not touched my uni degree for the past couple of months - not good.
I am now fucked. So fucked.
If anybody else is in a similar situation, I would be very keen to hear your thoughts/plan. Masters somewhere? Say fuck it, go travelling, and apply for stuff next year?
Target school doesn’t matter if your interviewing skills are horrible, it just gets your foot through the door. If you made it to many ACs/Final rounds and been dinged by all of them I would take some time and reflect on said interviews and what mistakes you potentially made.
Futures steps is probably a masters at LSE/LBS/Oxford and then recruit again.
Best of luck.
Its the fact that you didn't get a return that's harming your chances and honestly is what probably put you on par to similar target candidates with less experience. just like being from a non-target deducts the competitiveness of a candidate, so does a non-return offer. The shop you interned at was great, and if you had received a return offer and rerecruited, you would have relatively easily snagged a gs/ms/jpm ft/offcycle let alone a summer (Even in this shitty market you would be the highest tier of candidate).
I saw a comment above about someone saying if you got to late stages and still dinged then its your fault. Honestly I doubt this is the case in the situation. You've already done the interview process for a top bank and have literally had a 10 week immersion in investment banking so its definitely not a technical/culture fit issue. I reckon what it was is they kept you on till later stages as a strong maybe but then when it came to the board room discussions the non-return offer worries likely distinguished you in an unfavourable enough way to not extend you an offer.
Don't stress though, this affects a lot more people than it seems. Just Keep your head up, apply for a top masters program.maybe try save money by not doing an mfa/mif and instead just do a masters in your study field. Finance masters are to usually prove your financial acumen and usually to transfer from a non-target to a target. You've already proven the former having done an eb summer and the latter is unnecessary as you are oxbridge. Also in-between this master, it may actually be smart to try do a mbb/vc summer or anything non banking related so that the main focus on future interviews could be why you want to switch from said career back to banking. could have a whole development story which would link well to explaining the non-return.
Only Travel if you are from a wealthy background.
Surely it can't just be as simple as them dinging once they realise he didn't get a return. Top BB return rates were terrible this year, and Laz/Roths are typically 50-60%, so what do all these kids do who don't convert if T3 banks aren't taking them?
Agree, has been a difficult year
Well from there POV, unfortunately, yes... Think about it for a moment. Banks will want to hire back full time, lets assume, the top 60% of the SA class they are currently recruiting. The pool of candidates is large enough compared to available spots so that you can divide it into 3 groups where all characteristics are equal except for the differentiating factors where : Group 1--> Kids who had a IB internship and got a return, Group 2 --> kids who an IB internship and did not get a return, Group 3 --> Kids with a relevant profile with no prior IB experience. From the recruiting perspective, its all about the odds of signing a candidate who will be good enough to be in the top 50%. You know Group 1 candidates are, but there is not nearly enough to fill all spots. So, you are left with 2 and 3. For a group 2 candidate, you can easily assume he wont be significantly better then his last internship and thus, remain in the bottom 50% (since success in IB internships is much more processing power/attitude and less actual financial knowledge). For Group 3, you don't have a record so you have equal chances of them being in the top or bottom 50%. The odds of a Group 3 candidate being worthy of a FT are much higher then for a group 2 candidate. Since group 3 is large enough to supply enough good candidates for the first round of interviews, there is no incentive for them to give a second chance to group 2 candidates.
It definitely disregards the whole personal recommendation aspect of it, but since its not as relevant in the UK for first rounds, I feel this reasoning is accurate to a certain degree (at least I think).
Also, banks will be hiring a similar amount of FTs to last year since market conditions have not improved, so they will likely take less SAs. This support the idea that there is enough group 3 candidates to fill all the first round spots with taking lower quality candidates.
I realize a went a bit overboard on that one, but I'm to lazy to trim it. Curious to know if you guys agree/disagree.
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Have a friend who didn't get a FT offer at a BB last year, then applied to a grad role at another BB and they straight up asked him why he didn't get the offer in the interview.
He told me he was honest + he prepared very well for the interview, leading to him getting the offer. As such, I do think it's OP's problem if they are getting to the final stage yet not getting anything, or maybe they have been very picky on which firms they applied to
Why is no return such a big deal in this environment?
It could be actually technical / culture fit. Hate to break the news but usually if you did already 10 weeks internship, the interviewers will ask you much more difficult questions to see why exactly you did not convert. Also your story and why you did not convert is super important.
On the other hand - do not get frustrated. Consider a year off to get some off cycle and potentially think about doing masters in Europe if you are a Brit. I cannot recommend likes of HEC, Bocconi or ESCP enough.
Recruiting is pretty random at times. I got rejected from JPM 3 times (mix of summer and off-cycle internships) before I finally landed full time at JPM and I know people who could not convert summer at Nomura to full-time but ended up at Blackstone and made there to the Principal level.
Tons of very good banks still not done recruiting - think Santander, SocGen even Deutsche I believe so don’t lose hope just yet. If you area anywhere in those applications still (if you’ve had interviews or really just haven’t been rejected yet) I would strongly recommend emailing and pushing for the spot as much as you can.
Is Blackrock Infra Renewables open?
I am in a v similar situation. At a similar uni + did a US BB SA without getting the FT. Ignore the above comments about horrible interviewing skills and lack of return offer been a dealbreaker. You could count the number of FT spots in London this year on one hand. Just a very rough market and tbh I was quite late off the mark with applications given I expected to get the return. Hopefully things can pick up in time for Sep 24 or Jan 25 OC.
Personally planning to just focus on uni and then travel over this summer given unlikely I get anything worthwhile at this point.
See your comment would have been valid if he was recruiting for ft but he was recruiting for summers again, which meant his competition was against kids with a few spring weeks and not really those with a full blown eb summer. So obviously something was the dealbreaker here, which in all likelihood was not receiving the return offer.
Improve that attention to detail and perhaps your luck will be better next year kid.
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Equating a no return offer in this market to going to a non target is a bit ridiculous. The no return offer is a slight blip, while the non target brand stays with you forever. The number of FT spots is a good proxy for the broader job market. MBB grad classes are down 80%, fewer OCs, SA class sizes heavily reduced at a number of banks. This isn’t 2021 anymore - banks aren’t just hiring anyone with a pulse.
OP, perhaps think about reframing the way you handle no return offer question bc not getting anything from 2 of the mentioned ACs is concerning. Also Lazard/Evercore only converted 50%, so should be pretty easy to explain. If it’s Centerview, who converted 4/5 last year, then maybe slightly more difficult…
You don’t lose if you don’t quit
What feedback did they give you on the final rounds you did?
People are conflating this years recruiting cycle to the previous year... no, it was insane this year. All the AC's I've been to for summers are completely comprised of at least 23 year olds. Even if you had gotten a return offer I don't think it would have been cut and dry that you'd have gotten another summer offer. The best thing now isn't to rush and do a masters, but spend time cold emailing, reflecting on the feedback you've received and applying to other non IB/PE/HF roles. Recruiting is annoying because it distracts you from University work, and if you don't feel the effort you put in to recruiting is paying off, take a different approach.
Focus on finals 100% from start of Hilary/Lent onwards, more so if you're already behind. Do not carry on recruiting push for a 1st. This is how you turn your profile back around (it's already strong, ignoring the no return). Then recruit hard after - don't worry about taking a few months off - most of my friends took a gap year/6 months
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They don't care about this. Half of bankers in London are internationals (esp continental Europeans) who started as AN1 at 24/25+. Most of them have had at least 2 ib internships under their belt, which they prob didnt convert
They dont look down on you if you break in at a later age, it's fine
Not a problem. If you started straight after 3 years of undergrad, you'd be the youngest in the class. Others may disagree but can't stress enough you should push for a 1st - it will look good combined with Camb Econ/Ox E&M. If you're at Oxford it'll require work however - don't underestimate the 8 modules.
Very sorry to hear that, I feel you. Recruiting this year has been extremely competitive when you take into account the limited number of spots available, the number of high calibre candidates who have delayed their graduation, spring converts, trackers, etc. Regarding the ACs you had, many BB have rigid quotas in place. For instance they will hire x people from oxford, y people who speak Spanish, z female and so on. Even if you performed well in the last round, if someone else with the same "characteristics" got the offer from a prior batch, well then you won't get it. That happened to me for GS/MS/JPM. Interviewer really liked me and said during the interview he would love to have me in his team. A week later, received the rejection from HR and the interviewer called to say we should keep in touch. HR has a lot more power than people may think.
I can confirm that some banks have the quotas you describe, which can turn studying at a target into a double-edged sword as you compete with the strongest profiles at your university for low-single digit number of spots.
If traditional/structured off cycles are over, search or network for an unstructured off cycle at a regional boutique or family office buy-side. I’m at a semi-target, did an SA at a regional boutique and stayed on during the school year. However, I didn’t land any SA but took the year off to work at a FO HF.
Anecdotally from my friends graduate recruiting is very tough. You have a top tier profile so I don’t think you need to scoop this low but I’m just sharing what I did. You’ll get a consideration anywhere you apply. Maybe expand your scope like growth, VC, consulting, asset management.
Hopefully markets will pick up and more seats will be available come time next year when I graduate as I have pushed it back a year. If markets are still shit, at least I’ll have had a years worth of experience and network I’ve worked up to in the interim to work with. Happy to discuss and exchange.
Can I ask how you got the opportunity at the boutique? Really stuck on cold emailing tbh
I know this is asked a lot but so do you have any unique tips in finding unstructured off cycles? Structured ones are few and far between so I’m looking to hedge my risk
Off-cycles for H2 2024 and H1 2025 will open from January onwards. Focus on getting a first and completing your education and then re-recruit (you'll be a very strong candidate for an OC). You're in your final year, so I can assume your classification grade will be weighted heavily with how you perform in your upcoming exams. I'm not saying to completely write off this summer, but try and be objective with priorities right now and don't neglect your studies any further, it won't help in the long run. I also advise against the VC summer idea - you really don't need to shoot down with your current profile, you just need keep persevering and wait for the right opportunity to present itself. It's not like you're not getting interviews or not making it to the final round, you're just being compared to fresh faces. Don't hastily put an odd question mark on your CV because you're afraid of a "gap". You're 21 years old, no one is going to hold it against a Oxbridge student with a 2023 EB summer. They know the drill.
You'll very likely land an OC with a first from Oxbridge and prior experience, timing is everything. You're not fucked, dw.
Del
Most Off-Cycles for H2 2024 are already taken, at least at BBs.
I did ACs at top tier and T2/3 banks this year and the talent at the worse banks I met and did the case studies with at the ACs were markedly worse, so I don't understand how those banks would turn you down given you are likely a lot better talent than what they usually recruit. How many firms did you apply to/did you apply to T3 banks?
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Out of interest why did you not apply to worse banks? From my knowledge when people don't convert they typically have to "trade down" the level of bank
Getting dinged by that many ACs is pretty strange given your background, a non return offer wouldn’t make that much of an impact unless perhaps you didn’t have a good way of justifying why you didn’t get the return?
Do not agree with this at least for T2 banks they literally recruit from the same schools and typically recruit very similar types of candidates to those at T1 banks. There’s very little outside of luck between someone who ends up at Barclays/UBS vs HSBC/BNP
Yeah perhaps for BBs where it's just a behavioural HV who decides who gets the AC. From my experience at an EB AC which has a v hard interview process, I knew some stellar candidates who got rejected at AC, whereas a couple of MM ACs I did, the backgrounds of people there/performance in group exercise was not that impressive.
There seems to be a big blame on not getting a return offer but you are overestimating how much they care. Most top tier candidates for summers in the UK are 21+ with plenty of past internships they clearly didn't convert. Truth is if you got a couple final rounds+ a 10 week internship and got no offers, then there might be something wrong in the way you come across. I don't believe they'd have you on till the final round just to say "oh yeah he didn't get a return offer lets ding him".
HR does indeed have their quotas though, everyone who gets shortlisted for these Ac's are probably a good fit for the job. Ironically that just makes things easier, since they will just pick according to the type of personnel they aim to have onboard that year.
This cycle was a bloodbath in general, people meant to be recruiting full time have moved on to summers and even springs, insanity.
Jesus. FT applicants moving to recruiting for springs can't be sustainable. Surely there's going to be a huge excess supply of econ/finance grads with physically nowhere near enough seats to fit them all
There's always been a far greater supply for limited seats, this isn't anything new. Everyone isn't going to make it. Even people on here, whom you might think are more "switched on" because they're seeking advice or whatever - most of them won't make. It'd be really great if people started being realistic instead of selling people pipe dreams like some sort of discount Sameer Merchant.
I have seen this trend with people reapplying for springs in Y2 on a 3 year course.
Been a thing for aeons, nothing new
Surely they wouldn't get in?
Banks specify 1st yr in 3 Yr course of 2nd in 4 yr
Think it's a case of OP only applying to equal or better tier of firms. I'd assume GS will care a lot more that you didn't convert your EB summer than HSBC might for example.
How do they recruit for springs if they are no longer 1st or 2nd years?
I think based on what I gather from the comments and replies it seems like you pretty much only applied to BBs and EBs after not converting the year before. I get that you have good education and experience or whatever but IB in general is really competitive so only applying to like 10-12 banks would probably explain why. Maybe consider being a bit broader with your grad apps next year.
Some solid opportunities still open for those in a similar position:
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3703626183/
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3659809988
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3782548352
Bro Guggenheim has been open since summer. No chance applying now will lead to anything, same with Santander.
May be true but an application definitely can’t hurt it’s an hour long process at maximum
Just chiming in, I'm an associate in London at a tier 1 US BB, reality is there just isn't a lot of positions open for FT and SA. So logically there is going to be less supply for the huge demand, and I have to mention that "luck" is also a factor at play.
Do you see any signs of that significantly easing down the line?
Bump
Planning to apply springs next year so hopefully not as competitive
del
When will you people come off it? The "trackers" haven't detracted from seriously strong, good candidates from getting offers. That's just stupid and laughable and unbelievable cope, how is the 2024SA class serious???
And you don't "decide" not to convert. You either convert and decline or you don't convert because you weren't a particularly strong intern - which is pretty much the only case Citi wouldn't convert someone.
Lmao yes, they have because of the "luck" factor and other quotas. I realise it's not perfect but if you want to shoehorn the merit method then people with KKR off-cycles and other IB internships should at least get first rounds - clearly not the case.
I agree with you regarding the Citi conversion part tho.
.
That's exactly what happens... Think about it, you go from one group to another similar group at a different bank, they're going to know each other.
del
I should have rephrased my comment for some clarity. My mate knew he messed up when he was interning for various reasons and was not going to be able to convert and he let his team head know he was going to leave the internship early hence why I said he "chose not to convert". Will edit later.
I am not 100 percent sure how my mate spoke about not converting in his interview, I am assuming he lied and said he got a return but I am going to ask. Tbf though the research gig he did was somewhat interesting and pretty hard to get under the professor he was doing it with albeit it was a very niche area. But I am assuming he went along the lines of "I mutually agreed with said bank that I wanted to do this research thing so left early/didnt convert" or lied. Either way still a very risky thing to do.
Deffo try the exchange years if possible or try to take a interruption year and get a year off from uni. I know a friend who took a year out between second and third and applied for off cycles and went on holiday + got the chance to apply to off-cycles again. Not sure how it works at Ox but explore if it is an option.
Regarding research: You could do something in Labour econ as a research assistant or something in developmental economics. Would ask your tutor about it as he/she would be better informed about it.
Hey bud. I’m sorry to hear that recruiting went poorly. It’s not necessarily a you thing. I go to one of the top two MFin programs that usually have everyone who wants a GS/MS/JPM offer getting one (2018-2021 there was 30% of the year going there). There a literally ZERO people with one of those aforementioned offers this year. Professor told us this has been the worst year since 2009 for recruiting.
Can relate. The only people I know in my class who got the top BB were both diversity AND extremely strong. Also top MFin programme.
Thanks for that. I am going to apply to both of those MFin programmes and hope that A) I get in and B) recruiting picks up next year. Do most people on these programmes apply for summers or FT roles?
Can echo this sentiment. Non-diversity candidates in my cohort have not landed a BB offer, only the odd boutiques (Equiteq etc.). Oddly enough, have only seen women land the BB/EB offers (they already had strong backgrounds), not even the skin color has helped the diverse guys in my cohort.
How does the diversity recruiting work exactly? And how important is it? Is it just HR sees that you’ve ticked the woman box and they put you through?
Lol there are no masters in which "everyone who wants a GS/JPM/MS gets one".
I did the MFA and historically the percentage of people who get a SA in IB altogether is less than 50%, and everyone wants a top BB offer anyways.
I think people have this idea that a top masters = offer at a good bank, which is not true at all. This year was tough for sure, but London has always been competitive and hard.
You might need to adjust expectations, I don't think this will materially change next year.
This is true. I went to one of the top European MFin programmes and I would say only a handful (~5-8) went to GS/MS/JPM. Overall the career outcomes were great though. I went to McK with ~5 others, BCG 5-6 and Bain 2-3. Quiet some other non GS/MS/JPM BBs.
Really laughable statement that everyone gets a GS/JPM/MS offer, lol. Even if you go to the Oxford MFE you'd be happy with any BB offer. There is no guarantee for a top BB.
Lmao, stop with these tracker BS. London recruiting was always a crapshoot.
This year has been worse than 2008 for non diverse candidates
🧢seen some weak non-diverse candidates getting BB/EB's
SA aint no bloodpath, SA are the only open positions in this bear market. Try ft AND oc.
Just got an offer from Fagottra Capital Management (FCM). Did anyone hear back?
Dude, that’s unreal. Went through AC, hardest technicals I have ever had in my life (only rivals MCD Capital). The behaviorals were even tougher…. MD literally asked me about my favorite hippos species.. Congrats dude
Congrats on 99.9(recurring)% in first year!! (Think top of class/european leveraged finance origination)
Either capping or your dad works there. Heard FCM were exclusively hiring from top prop shops (think MCD / P72 / USS) and even then only specific diverse candidates. Had an interview with the Head of equities for Midlands Region (think Birmingham area) and was asked in 3 minutes to design a hyper aggressive long only tech portfolio with 3 technical strategies, backtest these mentally going back 3 years with VaR calculated using Monte Carlo simulations. Big congrats if true.
LSE kids need to be studied
the fact I understand every reference here confirms my autism
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