UMich Undergrad For IB Recruiting
Saw this post that broke down UCLA recruiting
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/ucla-under…
And there was mention in the comments of doing one for UVA / Umich as well as questions of its really different than the recruiting environment at UCLA.
The OP in that post started by mentioning the school doesn't give a shit if you get a job or not. Same at Michigan. Recruiting for finance at Michigan 100% runs through the clubs. A lot of people on here mention how Mich is a great school / target for banking, and yes, every year U of M gets offers at literally every bank on the street, but to be clear, all of those placements are from people in the best clubs which are (in order of placement / selectivity): MII, GIC, MIBC, and AIC as well as the business frats. Recruiting for those clubs is brutal with hundreds applying for about 10-20 spots in each class; there are an online application/screen followed by two rounds of interviews. Landing a spot in one of the clubs is pretty much required if you want to be competitive during recruiting because there are a lot of exclusive opportunities for those students and the club's aumni networks pull for their kids. So when someone says something like "XYZ recruits at Michigan," well yes, that's technically true, but in reality, they hire 1-2 kids from MII every year; if you're not in the club, you don't have a shot. All this isn't to say if you make it into a club, you're guaranteed a good job. Every year, there are people that fuck up for various reasons (low GPA, bad at interviewing or technicals, or unlucky), and considering the clubs are taking kids that are first semester freshman, it's no surprise they get some bad ones who got lucky in the interview process.
All in all, places that regularly take top Michigan kids from these clubs include: Ares (1-2 a year), Evercore (2-3 M&A a year), Moelis (6-8), PJT (2-3 M&A), Greenhill (1-2), M Klein/Raine/Allen&Co (1-2 each), PWP & Lazard (not a target for them, but 1-2 each year). On the bulge bracket side, MS, Citi, and BAML take a fuck ton of Michigan kids (probably 10ish each) and every other bulge takes a couple, but tbh asides from MS, most of the best kids at Michigan take EB offers. Funny part is there are always people in the fall that get CVP, GS, and JPM offers, but they usually aren't even the best kids, because all the good ones signed in spring. Sometimes when there's a truly exceptional kid, there are one-off placements at shops like KRR, Bain Cap, PJT RSSG, Point72, Blackstone, etc.
There are also a bunch of other lower tier clubs; I was involved with one when I was a student there, and even those kids get a lot of looks at the bulges, as well as a fuck ton of kids getting MM/Lower tier Big Bank looks (RBC, WF, HL, Jeffries, Blair, PJ Solomon, Piper all hire a lot of kids from Mich). All in all, Michigan is a good school to be at for banking, no doubt, but don't think you'll have access to the top placement unless you're one of the best kids at school and part of the 5ish% of kids in the best clubs.
ok
Can someone do this for Berkeley? I heard if you're not in DSP, you don't have a shot at the top firms/groups?
Yes, berkeley is much worse in this regard vs mich
Damn. I assume it’s not easy to get into these clubs to begin with unless you have connections then?
Absolutely false.
How much interest is there in one of these write-ups for Berkeley? As a disclaimer, I'm not in any of the "top" clubs at Berkeley, but I am pretty integrated in the business community and have friends in pretty much all of the notable clubs.
5+ silver bananas and I'll do a quick write up soon
+1.
Lol just waiting for one for all of UCB/UCLA/UMich/UVA/UNC/UTA at this point.
Post is up now https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/uc-berkeley-undergrad-for-ib-rec…
So Michigan doesn't care if you get a job or not you say? Do you want someone to hold your hand through your whole life?
There are a ton of undergrads that foam at the mouth for an opportunity in IB/PE, so yeah being one of the top students at any school is going to be a necessity nowadays to stand out in a world saturated with participation trophies and kids that think they are special for showing up to class hungover.
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This is absolutely true. Being in Ross and a top investment club makes a world of a difference during recruiting
I'm an incoming freshman at UMich (non-Ross unfortunately), and I spoke to a few non-Ross kids who are in some of these top clubs before committing. They were all non-diversity kids headed to EBs, BBs, and/or MBB Consulting, so I believe it can be done. They also all mentioned that not being in Ross was not a significant disadvantage.
Oh nice! I’m an incoming freshman too (non-Ross), and this was something I was worried about, but I got more mixed responses.
Yeah, Michigan has a huge alumni network in general, and they're really passionate about their school. I imagine the club alums go out of their way to help their own.
Yes, this is true for a lot of schools that have IB/finance clubs. I don't think the main point of these threads for the different schools is to complain that recruiting is poor. My main takeaway from the post is that while these kids in these clubs are most likely very smart, there is also a noticeable advantage of being in these clubs that incoming students should be aware of and they should best position themselves to get into these clubs in order to set themselves up better for recruiting season at BBs and top boutiques.
Honestly, you’d think Michigan/Ross upperclassmen would want to help other kids out, but that’s not the case whatsoever. Ross is very competitive, and although the kids aren’t as smart on average as H/Y/P, a huge number of them are dead set on banking and quite passionate. This competitiveness combined with the huge club culture at Ross creates a lot of exclusivity and club on club competition. If you’re not in the same club or frat as an upperclassman, good luck getting them to help you out. 95% of the time, they will not.
People want the best outcomes for their clubs so that they look good. Maybe 10 years down the road they’ll be answering emails all day from Michigan kids, but when they’re at Ross, they don’t give a flying fuck about the other kids there (generally).
I think what's most important here is understanding the age old question: is it the chicken or the egg, does Harvard make the student or does the student make Harvard, or in this case, is it the club or the student? I'm curious to hear thoughts from someone who was a part of one of these chosen clubs and hearing whether they think they got the top BB / EB position due to their club or through their own hard work. I would guess that the answer is a combination of both with most of the effort being done by the student. These clubs are meant to help guide people along the path of doing well in recruiting and by constantly being with the right group of motivated people, you are also more likely to succeed.
Appreciate the thought, but I would argue the clubs/frats play an equal, if not bigger role in getting a student their role. It is the network they build in that club that goes distances a student's hard work on its own cannot.
Thanks for the MS. What I said is the unfortunate truth, sorry to disappoint everyone.
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No problem with you expressing your opinion, which is probably accurate regarding that these clubs definitely increase your chances. But I can't agree with a comment that says a student's hard work "cannot" get the job done. Might be harder to achieve a goal without the networking aspect, but I would bet that kids who aren't in those clubs but who have worked their butts off have certainly gotten jobs at BBs and EBs.
Somebody do this for Duke
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Instructions: Ask your roommate's daddy, 50% chance he's an MD at JPM
also interested in Chicago and Princeton. Curious to see how much recruitment is done through, say, Scale & Coin or instead open to everyone
Duke’s recruiting landscape is nothing like this. On campus orgs (aside from BOW) don’t hold much weight. Since the school is small enough all of the large banks that recruit are open to all students. Placement is much more based on older friends and merit tbh
I appreciate the insight. Do you have any broad suggestions to Duke students for making a resume more interesting or show passion for finance? ie special events/groups, etc. Thanks
.
I think the ability to conduct yourself well in an interview and speak coherently are most important here. Don't come across as a try hard. Especially for freshmen, the clubs just want to see genuine interest in finance, willingness to learn, and they want to know that you can get along well with others.
I’m in one of these clubs and my biggest advice to you is to know what you’re passionate about. As long as you’re passionate about something in finance and can coherently explain that to an interviewer, you’re fine. You don’t need to know too much about finance, but know enough to be able to back up the assertion that you like finance. Also, go to the networking events.
Who cares
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I'm guessing you meant "high finance" or IB / PE, but even then there's still a handful of econ and STEM majors who aren't in these clubs and manage to land internships and FT gigs in these fields. Are there fewer of these kids? Definitely. Is it more challenging for them to get looks? Absolutely. Do they land at EBs and BBs? Probably not.
While I agree with your last statement that kids don't have access to top placement unless they're in the best clubs, your post makes it seem like anyone who isn't in a club has pretty much no shot at banking. I feel like this discourages anyone who isn't in Ross or one of these clubs from pursuing this career.
Whether you're in one of these clubs or not, Michigan is still a great school with a strong alumni presence on Wall Street, and it's entirely possible to recruit IB without doing these clubs. Most banks post openings on their websites for all to apply -- not just kids in top (or low-tier) clubs. Your post sounds like somebody who's still salty for not being in one of those top clubs and not landing at a better bank.
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You're right, 100% agree.
As someone who went to Michigan, recruited for and landed an IB internship without being in Ross or a club, and then after graduating saw the other side of it when leading Ross recruiting at my current company for a year (albeit CF not IB), this is all a load of shit. A group of upperclassmen running some clubs whose funds they'll use for beer money and pizza do no yield more influence or care more about the success of fellow students more than the administration of a top university. To even think so, you're off your rocker.
You're wrong. For starters, when the OP said recruiting for finance, they probably meant for the most competitive wall street jobs. As someone that graduated from Mich last year, works at an EB and just did interviews for our summer analyst program, I 100% texted the seniors I knew in the club I was in and asked for the names / resumes of the kids they thought were good. I also have friends at other EBs that did the same thing, not to mention the well known fact that one of the best buyside shops that takes undergrads hires one kid a year from Michigan and that kid has always been from the same investing club on campus (including 3 presidents in a row); gee whiz what a coincidence, right? Sure, for corporate finance, and marketing, and for some middle market investment banks that actually come to do interviews on campus in the fall, the OCR office plays some part in the process (usually nothing more than booking rooms), but for all the EBs and BBs that go in the spring and summer, the University is cut out of the process altogether. If you want to know how powerless the "administration of a top university" is, start out by recognizing they can't even enforce their own rules on recruiting timelines to companies that hire their kids. The best proof I can give you is that the University Administration held a meeting a few years ago with the leaders of the top clubs on campus to ask them "to stop monopolizing and circumventing the recruiting process at top firms" (their exact words).
The comment about the buyside shop is true. Ares Management
reveal yourself
I went to a top target where I quickly realized that business frats also had a major role in recruiting on-campus and led to great outcomes for most members interested in IB. There seemed to be a very high correlation between those who were in business frats and those who were in the most competitive clubs (whether it be for IB or consulting). I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case at Michigan. I've even heard some analysts say to the juniors in their business frat that they are aiming to get anyone from their frat who is interested in the bank an interview. This definitely did not mean that if you weren't a part of a frat or club, then you weren't getting a top job. It did seem very obvious though that those who were in a top business frat who were going for IB or Consulting got a solid internship.
Know the conversation was mainly about clubs but curious to see if anyone can opine on how business frats play a role in getting top jobs.
As a Ross grad who was not a member of any finance clubs and got hired by a BB (have since moved to EB RX), this is not an accurate post.
“Michigan doesn’t give a shit if you get a job or not” is a huge cold take and actually chapped my ass. The sophomore course load literally has required classes that cover resume writing, networking and LinkedIn profiles. The career department lines up on-campus interviews with every major bank (and most small ones) and you have peer coaches and full time counselors who will have unlimited meetings with you anytime you want to go over your networking approach, profile, resume and will mock interview you and help connect you with alumni. If you aren’t using these resources then that’s on you, not the school. Business schools are ranked partially based on job placement and that is very evident at Michigan.
Zinburger is also exactly right - the same kids going for these clubs are the same ones who are living and breathing finance and doing IB prep in the finance lab for fun. Naturally they are well prepared for interviews, and it becomes self selecting while the clubs are an endless cycle of interview prep for new members.
Most people not doing some form of finance club are just preparing less in general. If you read the guides, network (Michigan has one of the most passionate alumni networks that exist, club member or not) and hustle then you have the same chance on your own as any of the clubs. Most just don’t do this.
The comment on Ross being the only way into IB is also not accurate. Again, it is self selecting and most of the non-Ross students just don’t network as aggressively as their Ross peers (compounded by the massive support the business school gives its students). Two examples to back this up: my first roommate was an Econ major who went to all of the Ross networking events (yes, you are allowed to do this) and got hired by a BB. One of my colleagues was another Econ major and got hired through networking. I was on the school recruiting team at my BB and was explicitly told major and Ross/non-Ross is not a criteria they care about. It just happens that the business school kids are usually more aggressive about networking and are more prepared/polished.
tldr; bullshit take. Michigan gives you equal odds to network and get interview opportunities. It’s up to you how hard you prepare and network and how polished you are in the interview.
Can someone do it for NYU please?
You must be fun at parties.
USC and Berkeley please
Someone just did Berkeley here https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/uc-berkeley-undergrad-for-ib-rec…
Those club rankings are a bit outdated. AIC is probably at the top and GIC is washed up.
I'm sensing some AIC v GIC rivalry here
Lmao not true at all. MII and GIC are still top choice for all the underclassmen and as someone that just did recruiting for an EB and have michigan friends that did recruiting for other EBs, the best resumes in our stack were MII / GIC. Seems like they were hot commodities though because a few of our best candidates got poached and signed a different offer before our super day. Talked to seniors while we were recruiting and everyone seemed to agree that MII, GIC, and MIBC were better than any of the other clubs including AIC, and MIG. Most of the kids from those other clubs that get a good offer are usually also in MIBC or GIC.
True, as a sophomore who was just networking with analysts at different banks, so many of them mentioned that they were involved in MII/MIBC and a lot in MBEF too
this whole thread bark bark bark
Ok, so this guy can create an account and say bark bark bark but when I say something I get MS?
What kind of world do we live in???!!!
How difficult is it to get into each of these clubs? And also smaller/newer finance clubs?
About 2-4% acceptance rate per semester for top tier clubs. Once you get one top club on your resume it becomes much easier to get into other clubs, though.
You are wrong about the clubs aspect of things at UMich. While that can be a boost on a resume, banks don't exclusively look at University finance club experience as the golden ticket to getting through each round of interviews. That's a ridiculous claim.
Networking well is far more important, especially coming from a school with such a large alumni base, particularly with loads of alumni in finance who continue to recruit from Michigan. Not only do you not have to be in these clubs, you don't have to be in Ross either. The people I know at Mich who got Evercore, Jefferies, CVP offers were not in any finance clubs. They had great grades, good previous finance experience, and worked their asses off to network with as many people as they could.
Would be really appreciative if someone made a similar post for club-based recruiting at Georgetown! I just got in and I'm unfortunately not at all familiar with the specifics of the recruiting scene.
Incoming UMich freshman here, non-Ross. I want to get into Finance (probably IB) in the future and definitely want to get into these clubs. Does anyone have any tips on getting into these clubs? Will networking help for getting into these clubs? I've also heard that some Consulting clubs place well in Finance (Nexecon and 180), is that true? Any help appreciated, thanks.
Consulting clubs only place well in finance when those members who go into finance are also in investment clubs. This also works the other way around. In the past two years, MII has placed multiple kids at all 3 MBB. MII doesn’t do anything to develop kids for consulting—they just take smart kids who recruit well and join good consulting clubs.
A lot of these top kids just take the top kids so it makes sense that their kids recruit the best.
what are thoughts on banking at michigan? (the club)
I think it's open to everyone, as in no application. Very recently started. People I've met in it are all friendly. Doesn't have the alumni network of MII/MIBC yet though, but a bunch of their graduated seniors are going to GS so maybe in a year or so it could have some pull. Pretty sure the more established clubs mentioned in this post strongly dislike BAM because their board opensourced all other club resources (basically took confidential info from the other clubs and shared it with all their members to help them recruit)
Wow, kudos to them for sticking it to the man! Also, they never had "confidential" info. It was just extra resources that their members could leverage to get ahead in the recruiting process.
Great to see that organizations like this exist at universities that are making resources available to all students to democratize the process.
Chill
I’ve heard ND is absolutely amazing. Can someone do one on them?
For future students and applicants, would really emphasize looking at the placement on the websites of the top clubs (MII, GIC, MIBC); they've got lists of graduates right there. A couple not mentioned already include great pipeline with Guggenheim and Moelis and great looks at top MMs, especially in the Chicago-area but also NYC. Once every year, we get something top-tier like PJT RSSG, Ares PE, and KKR PE. Bottom line if you want it bad enough, you can get almost all BB/EB positions and maybe even a MF PE analyst gig usually given out to the Wharton/Harvard kid.
Gotta be honest, I’m looking all around and honestly cannot find anyone who fuckin asked
I’ll counter this with a few points from the other side of the table and more years of experience.
1) It’s just not true that you need to be in a club to recruit for banking from any school. It’s helpful and it’s often correlated with candidates being informed, but there are a substantial amount of recruits every year not in those clubs. “Exclusive events” aren’t that special they just are an easy opportunity to get your foot in the door. Ultimately, any bank you still are going to need to have contacts and network and you can do that without being in a club at a school.
2) The “best” candidates don’t actually go earlier. Those that were early to the game do, but ultimately there’s little correlation from what I have found between people who recruit late versus early and ultimate ability as a full time analyst. It’s one of the reasons that timelines getting pushed so early seems pretty asinine to many in the industry. At this point, many recruitment cycles are just rewarding kids that knew they wanted to do banking as a freshmen in college versus kids who actually have the brains and grit to be great analysts. The analogy I would use is right now banks are college football teams recruiting kids after a freshmen in high school season. Certainly there are a few kids who after freshman year, it is apparent they will be great athletes/ great hires, but between freshmen and the end of senior year kids mature massively and learn at different speeds.
3) No one cares about the clubs you are in when actually recruiting. College kids seem to think it matters, but ultimately many of the people that interview you won’t even know the clubs if they went to a different school. Also, how you come across in an interview or networking call is going to be way more important. I could rattle a million names of kids in business clubs that are absolute morons and kids who didn’t do any finance clubs and had great outcomes because they had other way cooler parts of their resume (like being a D1 athlete, starting a company, working in stem, etc.)
In short, clubs don’t really run recruiting and the best candidates don’t really go earlier. Clubs can help with recruiting and kids that are prepared early get jobs at banks earlier, but ultimately you can recruit late without a business club and get a job if you are actually a good candidate.
Is there a club for people interested in rx?
Not specifically rx no
Thanks, any clubs that send a decent amount to rx if any?
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