What does Detroit need to do to stop being such a shithole?
Basically, what do you think Detroit has to do to stop being such a failure of a city?
It really is depressing seeing all of these homes that were once beautiful now abandoned and decrepit... then the one person that everybody is counting on the most to turn the city around (Kwame) is just as big of a corrupt fuck as anybody else. I've heard that Detroit used to be really nice on documentaries and whatnot but, growing up when I did, it's kinda hard to believe... I had to ask my parents n they confirmed that it was. Which just pisses me off even more. Why the fuck can't Detroit come back? Dumbass city officials? Corrupt city officials? The fact that our state/city is basically based upon the auto industry?
Sorry for the kinda rant... the news about Kwame Kilpatrick is just infuriating. The guy completely took advantage of an already troubled city and I hope that worthless piece of shit stays in jail for a long time.
So what do you guys think Detroit should do
Continue with the tax incentives for moviemakers?
Incentives for any other industry?
Or just level the city and start all over?
Don't get me wrong, there are some very nice parts of the city of Detroit. The downtown area is one of the safest areas around, but where it's bad, it's bad. And those bad areas takes up way more space than the good areas.
Detroit needs to realize that it will never be what it once was. That means a lot of demolition and scaling back. I would have tax incentives to try and get companies to come to the city. Maybe court foreign automotive companies to set up shop, without the unions.
Detroit is going to limp along for a long time. If I was the mayor of Detroit I would be meeting with people from Pittsburgh since that city is the best example of a successful transition. PGH used to be about steel and pollution. Now it is about medical and financial services. Pitt and CMU really helped this. Maybe Detroit could partner with surrounding universities and try and get buy in from them.
Guys, take a little time to watch this documentary. It provides a decent educational background for all of you not familiar with Detroit.
http://www.palladiumboots.com/exploration/detroit
Stop trying to sell cars. Can't do it profitably these days, so you gotta try and attract other industry.
Like the first responder said, Detroit needs to scale back and force people to move into a tighter urban core. Demolish the areas with the highest vacancy rates and use eminent domain to force people to move. They need to apply the broken windows theory, that shit works.
The city should hedge its industry exposure and build stuff that is positively correlated with oil prices (right now if oil prices go up, Detroit gets hurt). There's a big need for wind turbines in states near there, they should offer tax incentives to the companies and get those built in Detroit. That would be good because it's a growing industry.
None of this will happen, btw, the leadership in the city is total shit from what I've read...
Example: Incentivizing movie makers is ridiculous...why do that? No lasting benefits, and half of the movies are probably picking Detroit for it's shitholeness - wasn't 8 Mile filmed there?
So you don't think Detroit can EVER be what it once was? I mean, they're probably not gonna be the capital of the auto industry anymore or may not be remotely close to the same "type" of city it was... but do you think that they'll really never ever be able to find an industry that can flourish within their city limits or achieve some success? Of course it'll be hard as hell, but are they really out of it for good?
Yeah 8 mile was filmed there but in all fairness, 8 mile is in Detroit. One of the recent Transformers movies was filmed here and even though I do like the idea of it, a lot of people think that film-making incentives aren't gonna last.
If you want an example of how horribly the city is run, just google anything recent on Kwame Kilpatrick... fucking scum.
Well never say never but I'd be quite surprised. Detroit flourished because of the car industry. These used to be humongous, incredibly profitable companies and they are shells of what they used to be. The city leadership is not doing the things they need to be doing. A lot of it is just political philosophy, they're probably too focused on ameliorating the poverty situation to realize that if you don't grow, more people are going to be poor.
Detroit WHAT!!!
Detroit was huge because of the auto industry. That is gone. Detroit has the size of a large city, with the potential of a nice small city.
Scale back, build up the city core, bring in some industry with future potential. I like the wind turbine construction. If I was the mayor I would be flying to China to set up some joint ventures. I would be giving vacant buildings to manufacturing companies, area colleges, etc. Michigan has a Detroit satellite campus. Really push for that.
I watched all 3 videos and they were nice, but obviously slanted just like the anti Detroit stuff is. All I saw was hipsters taking over vacant buildings and using them for raves or art studios.
Maybe PBR and Camel cigarettes should open a factor in Detroit since it is becoming the hipster capital of America.
Full Disclosure: I hate hipsters
Hipsters are my generations' hippies without the political activism or social awareness.
I hate hippies also.
Vegan mother fuckers who drink shit beer and smoke cigs. Walking contradictions. Thank god all of their women are ugly.
In the '30s and '40s Cleveland was a city on the "come up". Compare the population figures of Cleveland then and now and you'll be shocked. What was once a city only a step behind NYC and Chicago in terms of populous is now more of an Indianapolis/St. Lous/Kansas City. This population shift is indicative of all cities in the region west of Buffalo and east of Chicago. There is simply nothing there anymore in terms of opportunity. Populations and opportunity will simply continue to dwindle. There's no going back.
Such is the fate of all the big cities from the old "Rust Belt". Though Detroit doesn't land inside of those specific parameters geographically it carries all of the traits. Look at Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and all the once growing cities in this region (Cincinnati, Toledo, Dayton, Harrisburg, etc...) They are all suffering the same paints and not one of those places is ever making a come back. Detroit is suffering the hardest because it was essentially a GM outpost for over 50 years and now all of the ails that ill GM have spread to the city itself.
Ironically, a GREAT AMERICAN AND BUSINESSMAN named Roger Myers, tried saving Detroit and GM from this fate a quarter century ago. He was vilified, had his reputation destroyed and was ultimately fired due to the populist aftershock of the famed documentary "Roger and Me". Delivered by the most well respected socialist liberal idiot propagandist of our time, Michael Moore.
But I digress...
Detroit needs to do the same thing that ALL American metropolises will be FORCED to do today, tomorrow or twenty years from now. Abolish their welfare state-ist infrastructure, execute mass urban contractions and go from a spendthrift nanny state oligarchy to a bare bones minimalist government structure.
Everybody with dreams of yesteryear will get a nice cold bitch slap of reality once Chicago goes bankrupt. It won't happen soon, but it WILL happen... soon enough.
I have spent ample amounts of time in Buffalo and Pittsburgh and I enjoy both those cities. They are small, but vibrant.
Buffalo is HQ to HSBC, M&T, First Niagara Bank. They also have Key Bank, Citi, BoA regional centers. Tons of law firms and other stuff. Lot of strong universities in the area also. It will never be NYC or Chicago, but Buffalo is not the end of the world.
Pittsburgh is another great small city. Detroit is just too damn huge. They should make Detroit only the center part and maybe some surrounding areas. Demolish a lot of the blight. They have too much vacant space, they need to reduce supply.
Detroit can be a nice, small city, but people need to forget the past. Industry shifts and changes. That is life. Detroit was built on the back of one industry and that industry has changed. I don't feel bad for the city at all. You could see this coming a mile away and they put their head in the sand.
The federal government needs to take over their school districts. Detroit is ridden with failed primary and secondary schools. It is essentially holding back its own populous by not providing them with an education.
Ask Eminem to move.
jk.
I agree with Anthony on this one, Detroit needs to move forward and realize that they will never be on the same level as Chicago in this lifetime.
Above all, Detroit needs two things: (1) a new and innovative core industry, even if they aren't the premier city for it, and (2) at least one world class research University, the two of which can form a core population of upper-middle class intelligentsia that can properly gentrify the city.
Another thing I would do if I were the urban planner is to give up on neighborhoods that have already died. Literally, if there are several blocks of barely used and decrepit housing/industrial developments, I wouldn't hesitate to tear down the entire area and create a public park. After turning it into open land again, the city can expand as necessary in later decades (if they should be so lucky).
Crazy Photos of Detroit in Ruins (Originally Posted: 04/20/2011)
http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2011/02/07/captured-the-ruins-of-d…
Saw these on another site. Not sure if it has been posted here yet. Sorry in advance, Brady
http://www.detroiturbex.com/index.html
This site has some cool pictures too. Tons of closed down schools, abandoned churches, factories, etc.
Detroit 187 is a sweet show. Fitch owns.
Eerie, it's like a hipster photo shoot dream location.
Could you imagine what someone from Detroit in the 50s or 60s would say if they saw these photos? Sad.
I grew up in Eastern Europe and I LOL'd
Wow... to me that's what the end of the world would look like.
Perfect setting for a post-apocalyptic first-person shooter by the way.
shit
Great find. Terry Gilliam would have a field day there.
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They did. What exactly do you call the formation of a union sir!?
#bazinga! #DetroitBurn #FuckUnions
I think looking at pictures like this is cool. That said, why do these people just up and leave all their shit in there? You could easily salvage the fixtures, there are like vending machines, TVs, etc. all over the place. Union city obviously has the right model.
http://www.detroiturbex.com/index.html
This site has some cool/eerie pictures of abandoned buildings by category. Crazy to see all of the abandoned schools
These photos are so eye catching but depressing when you really think about each caption and take in what the description is......
in b4 brady Hoke says these are fake and detroit is the place to be.
More hilarious: If we were to tell him these photos were of ANY other city in the world, he would use them as justification for why that city sucks.
RidiculousHypocrisy
That second picutre was the building that they filmed the 1st transformers movie in.
Detroit and the Mainstream Media (Originally Posted: 07/21/2013)
It just pisses me the fuck off that they basically spend half a morning covering this, only for the President to give them an out to talk about less important things that will produce nothing important. One WSOer said that there are many lessons to learn about the Detroit bankruptcy, but no one will learn them.
And who the fuck cares about the royal baby?!?!?! Just one more person to live off the state. Literally welfare queens. At least Kim Kardashian has a job!
/mini-Rant over
I don't watch anything on TV, it's worthless. They need ratings and they do whatever they need to to get them. There are amazing reporters for CNN/WSJ/MSNBC/Fox. You just have to find and follow those people. It's not worth getting worked up over MSM. It's not going to change anytime soon.
it's not just the mainstream media. its people in general. look at the length of the zimmerman thread compared to the thread on the detroit bankruptcy. it's the reason that every election comes down to some bullshit over one candidate's slutty daughter or how he/she smoked a little pot 40 years ago instead of their stance on social security, the middle east, etc.
agree.
Agreed. Most people are ignorant or stupid; fuck them and keep stacking cheese.
Detroit Bankruptcy (Originally Posted: 10/08/2013)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/08/us/billions-in-debt-detroit-faces-mil…
Apparently the City of Detroit has paid $19 million in fees so far on its $18 BILLION bankruptcy and that's unacceptable to the politicians who presided over one of the nation's cities that has completely collapsed into industrial decay. What a fucking joke.
In any event, the $19 million they've paid so far is less than 10 bps of the total amount being restructured; they'll likely be paying a double digit multiple of this by the time they're done.
I'm...what...I can't even...I just....uhhh...
This dude's statement is incomprehensible. I guess it makes sense why he became a Rev. though.
I think he's saying he wants to take a crack at restructuring.
We're actually looking for a new janitor, I'm sure he'd have no problem restructuring the supply closet.
Where's Felix Rohatyn when you need him?
Ha, my buddy is working on this. Would not trade places with him for the world.
$18 billion in debt? This country needs to learn to spend money it earns, not that it thinks it deserves.
Lol, all of the church goers could pool their money for life and still wouldn't make a serious dent in that debt load. The Pastor is gonna have to turn rocks into dollars to make the interest payments.
That's what they're known for in Detroit.
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Detroit Public Schools FY 2011 Budget Overview:
All Funds: Revenues- $1,025 billion Expenditure- $1,205 billion
General Fund Revenue- $558 million Expenditure- $558 million
Source: detroitk12.org/.../detroit-public-schools-fiscal-year-2011-budget/
Are these the "Real People" of Detroit that this guy was talking about? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/highest-paying-financial-jobs-bes…
[quote=dwight schrute]Are these the "Real People" of Detroit that this guy was talking about? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/highest-paying-financial-jobs-bes…]
was thinking the same thing... that thread was such a joke...
That's terrible man. I wonder what kind of incentive structures could be put in place to steer some of these individuals to intensive basic training and education.
Is there much illegal immigration in Detroit? In a many parts of CA you would see worse literacy; they don't read English.
Unfortunately I doubt it's illegal immigration...who would come to America just to go to the most economically toxic region?
Seriously, this study is amazing if true. I didn't even think such a failure of public infrastructure existed in America...
Cliff notes: Detroit doesn't have a large illegral immigrant population because there are no jobs!
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/05/01/2011-05-01_mayor_bloombe…
Detroit is Bankrupt, Allen Park, Michigan Sends Layoff Notices to Entire Fire Department (Originally Posted: 02/24/2011)
For those that saw the bankruptcy of Detroit and Hamtramck, Michigan as a isolated events, guess again. Allen Park, Michigan has also filed for bankruptcy, sending lay off notices to its entire fire department. Police officers may be forced to resign as well. Many other towns in the greater Detroit area may go bankrupt by 2013.
"Allen Park, Michigan, a town of about 28,000, sent layoff notices to its entire fire department. This is a procedural move because the town is unsure how many it will need to lay off. However, the situation looks grim.
The city's finance director said today that Allen Park must lay off 25 to 30 employees by June to avoid a $600,000 deficit for the current fiscal year.
Tim McCurley said in an interview that the city sent layoff notices to everyone in the fire department to comply with a clause in the firefighters' union contract requiring a 30-day notice. He said some or all of the firefighters could lose their jobs, and that the police department faces layoffs too.
"It's not easy to lay people off," McCurley said. "No one wants to do that. It's never easy, but we are trying to work through it."
The finance director said the layoffs would only keep the city's books balanced for this year and have nothing to do with any funding cuts in Gov. Rick Snyder's proposed budget for fiscal 2012.
According to McCurley, the city faces a fiscal crunch because revenue in several areas has fallen short of projections. Collections from traffic tickets are $819,000 below what was budgeted, and ambulance billing collections are $200,000 under budget, he said.
McCurley said the city also had to refund $80,000 under order of the Michigan Tax Tribunal.
In other areas, spending has exceeded projections, including $130,000 in parks and recreation. McCurley said the city failed to budget for $150,000 for unused sick and vacation time for employees who have retired.
Overtime in the fire department is $150,000 over budget, even after firefighters agreed to limit overtime pay as part of concessions negotiated last year, McCurley said.
City Council members approved laying off the 25-person fire department Tuesday night.
Fire Chief Doug LaFond said he would be laid off as well.
The fire chief said he did not believe the entire police department was being threatened with layoff, but said the police force is about double the size of his department and could see significant cuts.
This is the second such maneuver we have seen recently where a town sent layoffs to an entire department.
Earlier in the year, leaders of this Hamtramck met for more than seven hours on a Saturday not long ago, searching for something to cut from a budget that has already been cut, over and over.
They slashed money for boarding up abandoned houses — aside from circumstances like vagrants or obvious rats, said William J. Cooper, the city manager. They shrank money for trimming trees and cutting grass on hundreds of lots that have been left to the city."
Here is a story that was published before its pending bankruptcy:
“We can make it until March 1 — maybe,” Mr. Cooper said of Hamtramck’s ability to pay its bills. Beyond that? The political leaders of this old working-class city almost surrounded by Detroit are pleading with the state to let them declare bankruptcy, a desperate move the state is not even willing to admit as an option under the current circumstances.
“The state is concerned that if they say yes to one, if that door is opened, they’ll have 30 more cities right behind us,” Mr. Cooper said, as flurries fell outside his City Hall window. “But anything else is just a stopgap. We’re going to continue to pursue bankruptcy until the door is shut, locked, barricaded, bolted.”
Bankruptcy, increasingly common among corporations and individuals, remains rare for municipalities. Local leaders who want to win elections find it unappealing and often have other choices for solving financial woes. Besides, states have a say in whether a municipality may pursue bankruptcy at all, and they have every reason to avoid such an outcome, not least of all for fear of a creating a ripple effect that could cripple the muni bond market and drive up the cost of borrowing.
Yet with anemic property tax revenues and forecasts of more dire financial times ahead, some experts and elected leaders fear that more localities may have to at least consider bankruptcy.
“There could be many cities in this position next year,” said Summer Hallwood Minnick, director of state affairs for the Michigan Municipal League, who added that in this state, cities had already struggled with billions less than expected in state revenue sharing. “All our communities have done is cut, cut, cut. They’re down to four-day workweeks and the elimination of parks, senior centers, all of that. So if there’s anything else that happens, they will be over the edge.”
This month, the authorities in Rhode Island said the city of Central Falls, RI could face bankruptcy if immediate, drastic changes — perhaps the city’s annexation into a neighboring municipality — failed. Some leaders in Harrisburg, Pa., which owes millions in debt payments tied to an incinerator project, say bankruptcy may eventually be the only choice.
Prichard, Ala., which stopped paying monthly checks to retired city workers when its pension fund ran out last year, is appealing a bankruptcy judge’s ruling that it did not qualify for Chapter 9 under Alabama law.
Only about 600 cities, counties, towns and special taxation districts have filed for bankruptcy (known as Chapter 9 for these sorts of entities) since 1937, said James E. Spiotto, a municipal bankruptcy expert at Chapman & Cutler, a law firm in Chicago, and fewer than 250 in the last three decades. In part, it can be hard — even impossible — to do: about half the states have statutes authorizing such filings, but some of them set limits or require elaborate approval processes. Other states have no specific provision allowing cities to pursue bankruptcy, and at least one, Georgia, bans such moves.
So far, the financial misery of the past two years has not caused a surge in bankruptcy applications; about 15 municipalities pursued bankruptcy in the last two years. But if revenue forecasts continue as predicted, 2011 might bring a rise in cities faced with such a fate.
Hamtramck (pronounced ham-TRAM-eck) did not anticipate its current circumstances. Officials in Detroit announced this year that they had for years overpaid Hamtramck in a revenue-sharing deal related to a General Motors plant that sits smack on the border of the two cities. The dispute is likely to be resolved, eventually, in court, but meanwhile, Detroit has stopped paying $2 million a year, and Hamtramck is watching a growing gap in its $18 million budget.
Here, the urgent search for services to cut has turned all attention to a realm that is also emerging at the center of budget debates in cities and states around the country: the costs of salaries, benefits and pensions of public workers.
Mr. Cooper, the city manager, says that everything else that could be cut already has been, while the city goes on spending 60 percent of its total general fund to pay for its police and firefighting forces — 75 current police officers and firefighters and about 240 former workers and spouses now on pensions. Mr. Cooper said that an entry-level police officer costs the city about $75,000 a year in salary and benefits, and yet repeated efforts to renegotiate contracts have failed.
“They kind of have the Cadillac plan,” Mr. Cooper said, “and we’d kind of like the Chevy.”
The police and firefighters question whether the city’s bankruptcy talk is really just a scare tactic for negotiation. Earlier discussions with city officials, they say, have urged them to accept pay cuts, layoffs, increased worker payments to pensions and even a suggestion that officers might pay for part of their own bulletproof vests — all this while the city has opted not to increase taxes.
“Nobody likes the police until you need them,” said Jon Bondra, the incoming president of Hamtramck’s police union.
(Found, Mr. Cooper says, posted on the wall of the firefighters’ barracks was his name — crossed out — on a list of former city managers and the word “Next?”)
Hamtramck, all 2.1 square miles of it, is a gritty city, a proud one and a place “that can do more with less than anywhere on earth,” in the view of Greg Kowalski, 60, who has lived here since childhood. Immigrants have arrived in waves over time, leaving layers like sedimentary rock — from Germany, Poland, Bosnia, Albania, Bangladesh, Yemen and more. Along Joseph Campau Street on a recent morning, a woman in a burqa strolled past Stan’s Grocery, which boasts about its Polish pierogi and kielbasa.
Hamtramck — once a community of more than 50,000 people but now fewer than half of that — grew up around an enormous auto factory that John and Horace Dodge built here a century ago. It remains a city woven together by union history, a fact that makes the turmoil filtering out from City Hall all the more pronounced.
“Look, if I was king of the world, I’d give them all a million dollars,” Charles Sercombe, the editor of The Hamtramck Review, the local newspaper, said of police officers and firefighters. “But this is the new economy, welcome to it.” He noted that his own job was now part time and that he received no health benefits.
Although Mr. Cooper says he believes bankruptcy, which could allow the city to “start over” with its labor contracts, is the only solution, the authorities in the State of Michigan have so far rejected the city’s request that the governor issue an executive order allowing Hamtramck to file for bankruptcy. An official from the state’s Treasury Department said that no city in Michigan had gone through bankruptcy, and that the governor had no such authority; the state has specific provisions for authorizing a bankruptcy filing, including intervention from an emergency financial manager and an emergency loan board. The current administration, which will be departing later this week, has urged Hamtramck to seek state assistance, including a possible emergency loan.
Rick Snyder, a Republican who is to be sworn in as governor of Michigan on Saturday, said the circumstances in Hamtramck concerned him, particularly for what it might bode elsewhere.
“We could have a large number of jurisdictions facing insolvency,” Mr. Snyder said. “Major reinvention” will be a necessity, he added, including taking a serious look at the structure of local governments and the possibility, in some places, of consolidation of services.
A new fear is bubbling up along the streets here: that Hamtramck, in so much fiscal distress, may ultimately disappear (either through bankruptcy or, simply, default), and wind up sharing services with or becoming a part of Detroit, a place many here describe as painfully rundown and unsafe.
“I’m not going to wait for two hours for a cop to show up,” said Shannon Lowell, the co-owner of a coffee shop. “We’ve trimmed every bit of fat. What else are we going to do? Borrow money from our dying grandmother?”
http://leverageacademy.com/blog/2011/02/24/detroit-is-bankrupt-allen-pa…
A ton of muni bankruptcies are headed our way...maybe not as many as Meredith Whitney predicts, but enough.
oh... it's a great time to be from the metro detroit area :(
Allen Park's actually a pretty nice area... I'm kinda surprised that it's doing so shitty
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That city has a new piece of bad news dropped on it about every 30 minutes. It is going to take a miracle to pull Motor City out of the gutter.
Or an giant spilt in the earth that swallows the city, that would drasticly cut down on hte clean up costs.
But what about The Super Bowl commerical with Eminem..... ;)
THAT SUCKS!! What's next, from now on they're only going to make half-cars???
I am originally from metro Detroit and am fairly well-versed in the shenanigans that have been going on in the city for the past 20+ years. The thugs that run the city are nothing more than thieves, they've been stealing from the city left and right. Just this past weekend I was watching the local news that said the judges at the courthouse in Detroit are "in the office" on average of less than 60% of the time they are supposed to be there. Rick Snyder, the new governor of Michigan, is trying to clean the place up. He has been going through Detroit's budget line-by-line and has been identifying theft and over-indulgence like it's no one's business. For example, that same courthouse recently had lunch catered by Jimmy Johns that cost over $7,000. It's a complete joke. The fact that they are closing schools is actually good news. Hopefully now they can decrease the size of the city to manageable levels.
I see I'm not the only one that reads The Drudge Report
I refresh it ever few minutes. pain in the ass to find the new articles when he hides them throughout
To the OP: there are numerous examples of very Democratic leaning cities and counties that don't have Detroit's problems and actually have the best schools in the country. Likewise, there are Republican leaning cities and counties that can make the same claim. To blame Detroit's decline on Democrats and Unions is ridiculous. Probably a combination of structural economic factors and bad governing. Why is it always about politics with some people?
Its always about ploitics because the government is the root of all problems. I'd like to hear what democartic power areas have the best schools.
Go look at the list of cities hit hardest by the recession. How many of them Rep/Dem? Look at the states hit hardest by the recession. How many of them are Rep/Dem?
Seems to me the "blue" states are the ones that are getting dominated by the recession.
Kwame Kilpatrick - King of the Jungle
The new Chrysler commercial is about the best thing Detroit has going for it these day...
Like mk insinuated at the end of his post, this could actually be a good thing for the city.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/shrinking-detroit-back-to-…
Eminem will save them!
Detroit's problem is that the city is massive and there are no jobs. Poor people are no exactly mobile so you have this vicious circle. Detroit is kind of in the middle of nowhere also. I am sure there is a lot of theft, but you simply do not have a deep tax base anymore. Too much industry has left.
It will take a long time to fix the city. I think Detroit should look at Pittsburgh as a blueprint. The steel city is now a city dominated by CMU, Pitt, PNC, PPG, etc. Completely revitalized city.
Let's be honest, every news story posted to this site has been or is on Drudge Report at one time or another.
To be honest and blunt, overall the BLUE states have the most educated people and the best public schools. Period. Red states like Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, etc., aren't exactly teeming with the best schools in the country. I think it's because they're red states. Yeah, that's it. Yup. lol
I find it odd how these "highly educated" places have the most problems paying their bills. It just seems so backwards. But, then again when you pay a teacher 100k plus a year and then on top of that pay all of their benefits. When you add to that they are in unions that have more power than the army its a recipie for what WI is going through now.
What is this dumb shit that blue states are more intelligent. Maybe they are blue because they historically were more industrialized and thereby had a stronger union contingent. The south was always more agrarian and not as heavily unionized.
I wasn't being serious. I was merely pointing out how stupid it is to say a public school district does poorly because it is a predominantly Democratic district. There are so many factors that affect the performance of public schools that have nothing to do with politics that I think it is asinine to make such a statement.
I don't think there is any question that the unions ran detroit and the other rust belt states into the ground. You can't place the blame solely on the manufacturing industry as I think those toyota plants in Tennessee are doing just fine. The difference is...ding ding ding...a workforce that is by and large non-union.
I don't think this is right. The Japanese just managed their car companies much better than we did. There was a case study on the performance of some (unionized) GM plant in CA when it was taken over by Toyota. They kept the unions, but changed their management model. Within a year it became one of the best performing GM plants and worker morale went up significantly. It's actually an HBS classic. I forget the name of it.
See now, I think that is fucked up. Why is the quality of education different, state to state. All stats ought to teach to equal standards. What is this shit that within the USA we have differing standards of education.
It's federalism. States' rights folks generally support localizing decisions re: education. I agree with your position.
See, this is what people in Europe don't truly understand. The USA is a massive collection of different countries (aka states). It isn't even a UK vs Italy thing. We have the Nordic states up north and fucking Africa quality of life in Mississippi. It isn't an easy thing running things over here.
This. Once you cross the mason-dixon line you realize its a different styles of life. Thats the major problem with things in America is that every state has so much freedom to do as they please. That is why you have certain states doing so well and others do terribly...its just the way it is... One state has to be the best and one state has to be the worst.
Well, at least the Detroit Lions are perennial championship contenders.
Oh wait
Top 3 problems with Detroit:
don't forget they make a shitty product as well...
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/sor…
Buick is #1
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand/sortcolum…
Ford is the highest non luxury vehicle
I still sort of think like you do about American cars, but they have been catching up.
3 is simply a euphemism for 1 and 2.
I think the incompetence(/theft) by city officials is really our biggest problem... I mean WHAT THE FUCK??...
Being from Detroit, I'd love to be able to bring some financial success back to Detroit somehow sometime in the future... but if the officials continue to act like a bunch of retarded monkeys, I'd probably just forget about the shithole and give my money to a city that doesn't have moron officials voted in by morons
I love you n all Detroit but... get your shit together!
I cannot begin to even describe how much theft is committed by city officials. If some of you began taking note of the news in the city for a few months, it would become crystal clear! I'm surprised the city hasn't already gone bankrupt!
In addition to the courthouse example I gave above, here's another one (which was Kwame's favorite):
Kwame was really good friends with the director of the Detroit Water Department (which owns and operates the public water system for the entire metro Detroit area, serving 4 million residents in over 120 communities). What Kwame did during his tenure as the mayor of Detroit was persuade the director to call for "renovation" projects to the sewer systems in metro Detroit cities that did not need renovations at all. The projects would be awarded to construction companies that would overestimate the cost of the project by millions of dollars. Kwame and his director buddy would pocket the difference above the actual cost of the project, then the director would raise the rates for water in whatever city they were doing the "renovations" in to make up for the cost. It was such a simple scheme that they were getting away with for such a long time.
Yeah, I heard about that a lil bit ago MK...
honestly, FUCK KWAME. What he did was like finding some guy that just had the living piss beat out of him a half hour ago then, instead of trying to help him, take his wallet... way to be a cocksucker, way to be..
The quality of public school districts has a lot to do with the income of the area. The property taxes support the schools, and high property taxes are paid by people with money. Montgomery County is one of the wealthiest in the country. I don't think it has to do with democrat or republican. It has to do with $.
And I think we can all agree there are rich people on both sides of the aisle.
Absolutely. That was my point earlier. Probably didn't make as clear earlier.
What comes first, the chicken or the egg. Are the performing well because they live in a high income area or do higher income parents have better performing kids? I think the later since, in NJ, some of the worst performing schools are awash with dough.
Talking about education: A teacher in the US makes shitty money: about $50K a year, but receives a ton of benefits. Why not changing the system: give them good money $80K a year, and reduce the benefits significantly.
Two good things would happen: 1- Benefits would get reduced 2- The best of the best would compete for teaching jobs; let's be honest here: teachers were not on the top of their class.
Believe it or not...the average teacher in Wisconsin IS making $75K...
The real problem you have in places like detroit is ungreatful people who live there. I was in detroit about a year or so ago not and the detroit power company was basicly waving peoples bills because they couldnt pay. There was a news team out there interviewing people in line waiting and only one out of prob the 20 people they talked to said they were thankful for what the power company was doing the othey 19 just bitched about how long they had to wait in line.
Detroit Declares Bankruptcy: $18B Red (Originally Posted: 07/19/2013)
Thirty-eight cents of every city dollar goes to debt repayment and unfunded liabilities, the governor said.
By 2017, Snyder said, that would jump to 65 cents per dollar.
Four months after Detroit appoints an emergency financial manager, they've finally collapsed under the pressure of $18 BILLION of debt. This also makes Detroit, America's largest city to declare bankruptcy. The appointed emergency financial manager named Kevyn Orr (who represented Chrysler during its successful restructuring), fired off a letter to Gov. Snyder stating he saw no alternative besides filing for Chapter 9, blaming decades of fiscal mismanagement, plummeting population, decaying infrastructure and failing services.
Over the last decade Detroit has lost over 250K residents, penning them to a distressed population of 706,585.
This being a summation that few who have witnessed the city's decline could challenge.
Snyder outlined the failures Thursday: Detroit has been among the nation's 10 most violent cities for 24 of the last 27 years. Average police response time is 58 minutes, compared to a national average of 11 minutes. And when it comes to crime, only 8.7% of cases are cleared.
Bankruptcy for the city has been taken in as a welcomed "fresh start".
-
What are your takes on Detroit's financial downfall? Will they really be able to start anew, and rebuild themselves?
How would you as mayor of Detroit handle the cities major issues? Consider the auto industry, shrinking population, and debt in your answer.
Thoughts?
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When Daenerys' womb quickens again, and she bears a living child. Then Detroit will return, and not before.
As a reader of the Game of Thrones series, I wish I had a banana to toss you for this response.
Time to go long Detroit. After all, how could things possibly get any worse?
Calling RoboCop!
Wasn't Baird on a deal where they found several new sources of revenue for the city? Must have just temporarily staved off the problem.
The only thing that's surprising is that this happened now instead of years ago.
funny you mention robocop, especially the 2nd one, where the city privatised a lot of its services leading to commercial exploitation and those less fortunate getting a really rough end of the stick which had no public interest representation to prevent it.
Check out these photographies:
http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/
Wow, thats unreal.
Can someone explain how bankruptcy works for a city? I know how it works for individuals...
similar to a national debt in europe actually, since the only normal difference between country and state would be central bank that can print, and EU countries on the whole lost their CB's. you are owed X (replace bond with invoice for services) and will either accept 1/10th of X as payment in full, or risk getting 0 (or maybe more). The slate gets wiped clean after that and you can start borrowing/paying on credit again.
Unrelated, but imagine if you were an athlete and got drafted by a team in Detroit. Holy shit I'd be pissed
I wonder what will be the treatment of secured creditors like BAML vis a vis unsecured ones like pension and health benefits obligations. Bankruptcy and restructuring laws dictate that secured creditors get paid first. Too bad when it comes to politics the law hardly matters. If the Stockton, CA case is any indication the union members will be made whole while everyone else gets screwed.
On the other hand, it is still possible to make money if you buy the muni bonds cheap enough and have the balls to duck it out with the government. Some HFs made money that way from the Jefferson County bankruptcy.
This is what happens when you have inexorable population decline. Along with the population decline, a large proportion of residents do not exceed the taxable income threshold.
It is analogous to Bernie Madoff's scheme. He only needed one dynamic to persist; more people entering the scheme than exiting.
Going to be interesting what happens to Detroit 5-10 years down the road.
In the U.S municipal bankruptcies are governed by Chapter 9. This article provides a good summary of how it may work for the Detroit case: http://www.freep.com/article/20130621/NEWS01/306200070/Kevyn-Orr-unions…
Also the WSJ has a primer on this: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014241278873242634045786142901102290…
A lot is up in the air and depends on what or how much the union is willing to give up. If they treat the secured creditors poorly here then borrowing costs for all muni governments will likely go through the roof going forward.
Detroit's got nothing on Argentina.
I don't see how Detroit is going to ever be anything but a tiny city/town. Pittsburgh went from a steel city to an information/healthcare city on the back to Pitt, CMU, etc. What does Detroit have? No major national universities, no great healthcare, nothing. It has an auto industry that was once the Big 3 to now being the US 3. They will continue to automate and shrink in size in order to remain competitive and will never be major employers.
The weather sucks, the whole state isn't that great. Illinois has Chicago. Wisconsin has Milwaukee. Michigan has Detroit (barf).
The only good thing that will come from this is a kick in the face to unions and government workers.
Why? Almost none of the athletes actually live in Detroit anyways.
I'm sure there are decent, affluent neighborhoods in surrounding areas. I just wouldn't enjoy going to "work" everyday in Detroit. Aren't all the stadiums right in downtown? I've never been there so I'm just basing my assumptions on Gran Torino and Hardcore Pawn.
Going forward, it almost really doesn't matter if Detroit no longer has the debt or not, it's still going to be extremely hard to return the city to a prosperous one. Detroit really needs to broken into multiple cities as the different sections of Detroit that are not crumbling to the ground are distant from one another.
If you want the 911 call response time to decline Detroit is going to have expand like crazy the number of police/fire stations and the amount of employees and equipment. This is all going to bring on more debt. Then they'll just end up in the predicament they are in now.
To bring Detroit back, there needs to be residents. The tax structure in place now was based off of roughly 1.5 million tax payers. Cut that number by more than a half, and that's a huge difference. You can't tax people for more than their house is worth. To get residents, there needs to be places they can live, where they will be safe. To do this, they need to get rid of all the decayed houses and buildings. "But they have so much history!" and they also have so much disease, destitute, squatters, crime, etc because of it. If Detroit is going to Rebuild, and Reinvent itself, it trueley does need to rebuild. It needs to reinvent itself in a new market for business and home-owners. Detroit is no longer filled with out auto factories and companies. There needs to be more industries brought in. If you want more residents to move in, the stigma of only poor ghetto people live in Detroit needs to go too.
Regardless of your political persuasion, Detroit's failure offers a lot of hard lessons, and unfortunately we won't learn from any of them.
Detroit...a liberal failure
Illich is keeping the area where the stadiums are plenty nice. Everything outside where his hands are though is pretty much crap. He's also been known to take care of his players very nicely as well. The Pistons still don't play in Detroit, although I'm sure that anyone drafted to them would be pissed not because of the Detroit name.
Come to think of it, after bankruptcy and we need a new mayor of Detroit, Mike Ilich is my candidate!
You are not totally wrong but it has been this bad because of property value declines, not the income tax. Income taxes are a much smaller piece of the pie than property taxes.
Dude, I think we can all agree that Detroit is a shit hole and you don't need to go there to know this. I haven't been to Somalia, but I am pretty comfortable saying it is a dump. No need to defend America's Toilet Bowl.
I thought there was a federal law that said states have to keep their budgets balanced. If this is correct, does the same not apply no cities? Why doesn't it? Or am I incorrect
This is what happens to cities in decline. Not enough diversification into the service sector, assumptions of stable population levels, infrastructure beyond its what population density can support. Aside from being a port city to Canada and having some Auto maker corporate offices there is not a lot of bright spots on the horizon. It was a tough call. What were they going to do, carve the affluent areas from rest? Be realistic, Arkham city was only in the movies...
Just a few months ago, I received a newsletter from some re consulting firm saying that 'it's a good time to invest in detriot's housing market which nearly reaches its trough''. Wow... I feel sorry for the investors...
This was inevitable with the decadence of the auto industry. What's scary is the fact that the Greater Detroit Area is 47% of Michigan's GDP.
Liberals gonna Liberal
I will be passing through there in a month en route to a wedding in a ann arbor... always been curious to see what detroit actually is ilke
"How would you as mayor of Detroit handle the cities major issues. Consider the auto industry, shrinking population, and debt in your answer." is bound to turn up as a case question
raising taxes on the rich is the answer, and more govt. spending also. Its been proven to work.
edit- I realize some people might actually take this seriously, its actually sarcasm.
Detroit is suffering the fate that I think entire nations will not too far down the road, particularly the "resource curse" economies. An industry can bolster a city short and medium term, but Detroit literally built it's entire system around the auto industry which was a huge long term mistake. What if flying cars had been invented? The outcome would have been the same. Blame can be pointed at the liberals, the auto industry, the unions, the politicians, the blacks, the whites, the pastafarians, whatever it is that makes you warm and fuzzy inside. What's going to count now is for them to draw in industry, however and whatever they can, and then temper the desire to kill the golden goose once things gain traction.
Business opportunities I can draw off the top of my head: - serve as a hub for natgas development over the next decade - draw in low end manufacturing - draw in call centers - expand port service
The opportunity here is to put lots of people to work who aren't expecting too much, in an area with very affordable COL, and a very clear understanding of what happens when things aren't done right
Perhaps if they made Detroit a Chinese-style special economic zone with relaxed taxes and regulations?
Unions BANZAI, Unions BANZAI!!!
Let's rethink the century old model before more casualties surface.
I'm not sure about cities being required by law to balance budgets, but this requirement is almost completely meaningless in practice. You are correct that most states have a balanced budget amendment but that has not stopped plenty of states from digging some serious fiscal holes. The cronies in Illinois have been fudging the numbers for years, jerking off unions and making it rain pension benefits. Haven't had a chance to read into Detroit's situation much but I would guess a lot of the same political malfeasance was going on there.
Did you also get a request from a Nigerian prince about some stolen money he wants to split with you?
Good write-up on zerohedge: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-19/death-city-detroits-eulogy-del…
ITT: A lot of ignorant motherfuckers who know nothing about Detroit and/or Michigan, nor have ever been to the state. -TNA
u sound just a bit mad, care to clarify why? do u live in Detroit?
I did receive some request about 'entertaining' some royal family member in dubai, which imo is not even as half ridiculous as this detriot housing market one...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/19/detroit-bankruptcy…
Judge just rules that the bankruptcy is unconstitutional.
What a fucking joke. The bankruptcy court should make those decisions, not some shithead small time judge.
Who defends Detroit? This is hilarious that people are getting upset because everyone is shitting on the city (rightfully so).
I understand the necessity of Pres Obama's statements today (though I think he should have brought up the taboo topic of reserve racism, so that both sides could be sensitive to each other's perspectives), but it just pisses me off that the media has already just thrown this Detroit story in the garbage, basically guaranteeing that while we may do some soul searching on race (once again), we won't do any soul searching on the clusterfuck that is the American public sector.
Detroit is a hell of a lot more important than paying lip service to more "national conversations" on various social issues.
Absolutely, and I think I've been to the Applebees franchise you are referring to.
Let all 11+ million undocumented illegals move to Detroit. Let them start businesses and live within the bounds of Capitalism. If it succeeds, they can become citizens. The Homestead Act of 2013
Is anyone familiar with the Chapter 9 process and how or if any investment banks are involved? Are pub fin groups fucked by this or what?
Downtown Detroit is actually pretty nice and the people mover is an efficient way to get around while doing some sightseeing. I think the bankruptcy gives the city a golden opportunity to start over with a clean slate, assuming that Orr manages to fight off union interests and succeeds to restructure the city's pension and health care obligations to a more sustainable level. I really like the idea of enrolling all new public employees in 401Ks and getting rid health plans (retirees are eligible for medicare anyway while younger workers can sign up for Obamacare exchange). If he can pull that off, it would go a long way toward getting the city back in shape.
Metro Detroit is a nice place to live with one of the best airports in the U.S. that is a major transportation hub to Asia. Also the state of Michigan is actually not in bad shape financially. In the long run I think Detroit has a lot more going for it than Chicago. Illinois has a $43.8 B deficit in terms of net assets (Michigan has positive net assets) and Chicago has been privatizing all sort of services to pay off debt. It is only a matter a time before IL's wow drives Chicago into a downward spiral again--perhaps starting with massive hikes in property taxes and cut backs in services like what happened in Detroit.
Are there PE firms that specialize in buying entire cities? I think in an ideal world this would be the best option.
Detroit is a shit hole. I think that's more fact than opinion. Any time you have large masses of people moving out of some town, you can be pretty certain you're dealing with a shit hole. Next you'll be telling us about the wonderful town of Camden, NJ.
I grew up in the Metro Detroit area. Rest assured the city of Detroit is very much a shit hole. The downtown is hospitable whenever there is a major sporting event going on, but besides that... bring your vest and 9 mil.
Mitt Romney returning to Bain Capital, buying out the city of Detroit, and turning them around would make for one of the greatest redemption stories in the history of American politics.
If you have time to spare while you're in town, let me know and I can give you a tour.
Caesar I will help you sum up the tour for Andy. Head down to the Port of Detroit. From there head northish, you come close to Dearborn which has a few select ok spots. Keep heading toward the 5 mile through 8 mile area. Cruise that area for a bit. Literally miles of trash.The biggest shit show in the US.
I think Ant would enjoy this -
Haha, I'll give O a pass since he was talking about the Big 3 and not the shitty city. I'm sure Fox News will have a hay day on that sound clip though.
Sorry but Detroit is a complete dump. I have never seen so many burned out and wrecked homes. It looks worse than New Orleans post Katrina. Bulldoze the place and start over.
They don't need MORE debt guys ;)
In all seriousness I agree
thanks for the offer, did you mean ann arbor or detroit? i think we'll only be passing through the latter, but might try to make it to a tigers game on 21st or 22nd
Detroit. If you catch a tigers game at Comerica Park, then you'll be in the heart of Downtown/Midtown. If you get some time and want to see some of the surrounding area let me know. No worries either way.
The ignorance in this thread is laughable
Detroit: America's First Ruin (Originally Posted: 12/04/2013)
A small fortune is about to be made (and lost) in the distressed muni debt of Detroit now that a bankruptcy judge has ruled that the city can remain under Chapter 9 bankruptcy protection. Of course the unions are screaming bloody murder and current bondholders are about to take a massive haircut, but thems the breaks in the Motor City these days. Here's where it gets really interesting: in a lot of ways Detroit is in better fiscal shape than Chicago. If Detroit is allowed to go gentle into that good night, will the Windy City be next?
I find it mildly ironic that the two groups of people with the most influence, bondholders and unions, are the ones getting screwed now that they have collectively managed to ruin the city. People can blame the policitians all they want, but they just run on the platform that either investors or labor demand. I know that's not the full story at all, but that part of it amuses me on some level.
And why hasn't Felix Rohatyn been called in yet? This is kind of his thing
Felix wouldn't piss on Detroit if it were burning to the ground.
Detroit is not by any means a unique case however it does not share much in common with Chicago outside of its debt load. Detroit is a city built for several million with a population well below a million. The city needs to realize that it can't service the old city limits, needs to contract its borders and send the people who are now living outside of the new city limits a nice Christmas card that says "Sorry if your house is on fire or if someone robs you we can no longer help. Merry Christmas :)"
Agree. Chicago's (or Illinois') pension problems are a big, big issue. But, there are many differences between Chicago and Detroit. The most important of which is population trends. Gentrification in Chicago continues and is pushing the poor out further west and south. This allows the city to reduce public expenditures in those areas without affecting the tax base.
However, as a Chicagoan, the one thing that is always a concern remains... politicians.
Got hit up by a headhunter for a role in Detroit a couple weeks ago. I cant imagine what it would be like making ~150k base a year in that city. Could probably just buy a city block and make it into a shrine to myself.
@happypantsmcgee
City block? You might as well buy one of the dirt cheap skyscrapers there.
btw...... I'm not sure that there are many people who have had more of a negative impact on any US government than this guy.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Madigan
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