Prestige Debate

NDARE's picture
Rank: Chimp | 8

Hey buds,

This post comes down to this fundamental question: can prestige of an undergrad school justify debt?

I'm choosing between Claremont McKenna, and a full ride from UIC (state school in Chicago). I would have to pay for room and board at CMC, which would total around $16,000-$20,000 a year. UIC would probably only amount to about $2,000 a year in costs.

The latter option seems like the safer choice, but I can't imagine passing up on an opportunity like CMC, especially since they seem to have strong ties to many employers that UIC doesn't seem to have (also has access to Silicon Valley) Although I'm not certain what field I'd like to go into, I like economics and the environment, and CMC seems to have huge strengths in those areas.

If anyone can offer some anecdotal advice on student debt, that would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Comments (85)

Apr 19, 2016

The one thing to be weary of is to go to school to just get a degree, hoping that things will just magically work out after. A lot of people do assume that after graduaing they should get a job, regardless of degree, grades or school name. The major problem with debt in the US today applies a lot more to schools where students are unable to find a job after graduation. That said I would recommend CMC anyday given the fact that tuition at other schools would be closer to 50k-60k a year and its still a fantastic school.
Regardless of what you do, be smart and make the most of your time there.

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Best Response
Apr 19, 2016

Once you understand that universities act as a filter for employers to have some rough sense of your intelligence, you will see that all degrees are not remotely equal. When people come on WSO asking the difference between Duke and Cornell, they're really splitting hairs. Both schools have a lot of really smart people in attendance and most employers (and people in general) recognize that fact. The differences in the value of the degrees issued between the two schools you're mentioning is hard to overstate. The average kid from UIC would not be perceived of as impressive as one from CMC and they probably wouldn't be.

Yes, people from mediocre schools can go on to have successful careers (look at me for an example), but the differences in average outcomes is enormous. I would argue particularly so for finance more than most industries.

Yeah, it's probably not fair, but you are still in a position to do something about it.

Take the debt.

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Apr 24, 2016

Are you still going to parade around pretending you are the actual Richard S. Fuld, even after your post telling us you aren't?

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Apr 19, 2016

Had you said Claremont was $25k+, I would have told you to go with UIC. At 16-20k, however, I would go with Claremont. I'm one who's usually against heavily in too student loan debt, but this is reasonable.

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Apr 19, 2016

Analyze your goals and figure out which school would put you in a better position to reach them. School prestige doesn't matter that much outside of a few career paths. If you keep a high GPA, do solid internships, and capitalize on available opportunities you will likely come out with a decent paying job. Are you planning on going to graduate school? If so your undergrad school doesn't matter as much. I know plenty of people who went the budget route for undergrad and then went to top programs for grad school. That is something to keep in mind.

If realistically Claremont isn't going to put you significantly closer to your goals I'd say take the cheaper route. Prestige can be worth the cost but it isn't always. In response to the poster above, universities acting as a filter isn't usually so black and white, nor is the quality of student at university.

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Apr 20, 2016
hansolom:

In response to the poster above, universities acting as a filter isn't usually so black and white, nor is the quality of student at university.

You may hope that the filter doesn't exist and each individual can be evaluated on their own merits without any heuristics based on where you went to school. I may also wish to pay $2 for a lottery ticket that pays $50K.

We will have somewhat similar probabilities.

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Apr 20, 2016

If all things were equal and two candidates were being decided on the person from the known school would likely get called first. Things are rarely ever equal however. Recruiters typically like kids from schools they know well (not just in name but in quality). Most recruiters I know of with the exception of those in a few companies/industries don't solely associate name with quality. Region and the applicants resume matter a great deal.

I'm not disagreeing that it does act as a filter but I think you're overstating school names impact in most cases excluding a few career paths. Outside of a handful of companies and career paths school name doesn't matter that much. Not too mention that different companies look for different things. Thats why its not as black and white as you make it.

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Apr 21, 2016
DickFuld:

hansolom:In response to the poster above, universities acting as a filter isn't usually so black and white, nor is the quality of student at university.

You may hope that the filter doesn't exist and each individual can be evaluated on their own merits without any heuristics based on where you went to school. I may also wish to pay $2 for a lottery ticket that pays $50K.

We will have somewhat similar probabilities.

Agree with DickFuld - if you want a good job and have a chance at landing the interview go to a name school. I was heavily involved in the recruiting process when I started as a young analyst. HR would not look at CVs from schools that were not in the top.

That said - I don't know what the fuck CMC is so I would go for the cheaper school as both are pretty unknown and you will have to fight a similar battle if you try to go into banking. Also I am a big fan of state schools and will always respect someone who went to state school to save money rather than someone who went to a mediocre private university.

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Apr 24, 2016
GritsnGravy:

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p>Are you planning on going to graduate school? If so your undergrad school doesn't matter as much. I know plenty of people who went the budget route for undergrad and then went to top programs for grad school. That is something to keep in mind.

I strongly disagree and would encourage people to think very carefully before following the advice above ...

When I was applying for undergrad, my father (who didn't attend college himself) gave me similar advice on undergrad not mattering as much as grad school. I took his advice and went to a good state school (UC system, but not Berkeley or UCLA) for undergrad, even though I probably had a good shot at getting into a higher ranked school (not H/S/P, but a decent shot at one of the other Ivies). I ended up later going to a top-5 MBA program, but not shooting for a better undergraduate school is without a doubt the biggest regret of my life. I'm happy with where I am now, but I think that a better undergraduate school would have given me a more valuable network, better career opportunities, and better personal branding, all things that have huge potential payoffs over a lifetime. By going to a great undergrad school and getting on the right career track, spending time and money on graduate school might not have even been necessary ...

In summary, for hard working and ambitious people, my advice on undergraduate admissions is to go to the best school you can get into. You will find a way to pay for it ...

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Apr 19, 2016

It's easy for someone to say take the 16-20k in debt each year for 4 years. You're the one who has to actually pay it. Think about your salary when you finish undergrad. Think about how much a student loan payment will be, where you want to live, etc. An 8k student loan even at 6% would be like what? Not even 100 bucks/month? I get the whole drive toward "prestige" and all, but how do you know you'll even want to work in Silicon Valley when you graduate? There's a lot of moving parts here, and i'm just saying consider every variable before you pull the trigger. If you decide CMC is worth it, then go for it and get as much as you can out of it. If you decide to go to UIC, crush it and maybe get a Master's somewhere out west and get to Silicon Valley that way. There's more than one way to get to your destination.

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

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Apr 20, 2016

I agree with how the OP is young and is not 100% sure what he wants to do with his life, but CMC will open many more doors for him than UIC would.

Also, MBA programs are not cheap so I don't think that would be the best move

Apr 20, 2016

Go to CMC. If you do well and go into tech / finance (you'll have the opportunity) from there you'll pay off the debt fairly easily. I've spent time on campus there and it's a pretty fun school. Can't really beat southern california weather / women. If you're interested in working on Wall Street, CMC is several tiers above UIC. Not to disparage UIC, but I'm pretty sure I've never met anyone on Wall Street who went there.

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Apr 20, 2016

if you leave with 80k in student loan debt, your payments will be about 8-1100/mo for a 10y loan depending on rates (rates were higher when I graduated). suck it up, put bonuses towards the debt, extend the term if you can, live with roommates as long as you can, drive a used accord/camry, skip the equinox/crossfit membership, and go for maker's mark over pappy 23y.

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Apr 20, 2016

Slightly off topic/ignorant questions but Is it par for the course to borrow that much to study in the US and have such huge payments? Are graduate starting salaries higher in non finance industries to compensate?

Apr 20, 2016
GMG:

Slightly off topic/ignorant questions but Is it par for the course to borrow that much to study in the US and have such huge payments? Are graduate starting salaries higher in non finance industries to compensate?

That actually is less debt than many people take on, and no, not really, most non-finance industries also don't pay well at the entry level in the US. The US is sending too many people to college to study majors that will lead to jobs that will never compensate the individual well enough to pay down the cost of their college debt.

A generation of Americans have been told the college is the golden ticket, but there is a high degree of variability in quality of education from university to university, and many majors are completely worthless for getting a well-paid job. Education is the new housing bubble in the US.

Apr 21, 2016

No, average debt is something like 20-30k which means payments in the 2-400/mo range. Which is why so many social science grads with bartender jobs and loan payments equivalent to a Audi A6 lease are voting for Bernie.

Apr 20, 2016

Total cost of 16-20k is pretty reasonable. I'd lean towards CMC but respect the financial attraction of UIC. Can you live off campus at some point?

Apr 20, 2016

I was in pretty much the same situation except I was debating between 40k a year in loans for a target vs no debt for a semi/non target. I took the semi/non target just because it was hard to swallow being 160k+ in debt when I graduate. Obviously Im no place to give you advice BC Im a high school senior, but if the schools are close in rank/placement/prestige i guess, then go with the cheaper one and work your ass off. If its a huge difference between the schools, maybe consider taking the debt, and the value of the name/education, but its up to you.

Apr 20, 2016

If you intend to go into business I would go with CMC. If you intend to do something like engineering I would go with UIC. Reason I say this is because there are more business majors than ever, employers are looking at GPA/School to differentiate more. Also, networking events and such at a top school like CMC allow you to ingratiate yourself with recruiters and surpass the GPA hurdle more easily. I went to a state school ugrad, now at a semi-target/ target in my state for MSF, I cannot tell you how different the experience has been. I just left an asset mgmt analyst final rd interview that had a 3.5 minimum, my GPA is around 3.3, I am almost certain that had the job opening not had the number of the MD I could call, I would've never gotten that interview. I impressed him from the initial call, impressed him in subsequent interviews, now I think I may get this job. I would've never gotten the chance to even speak to the guy from a non-target, this was a number posted through our career website and I don't know if they even posted the job online. I received an internship offer from a top RE developer and I haven't put in a single application, I talked to them at the career fair moved forward in interviews through that. These opportunities (especially in finance) are far and few between for non-targets.

p.s. Why did you just get into UIC and not UIUC?

p.s. of p.s. Happy 4/20

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Apr 20, 2016
BobTheBaker:

p.s. Why did you just get into UIC and not UIUC?

UIC and UIUC are vastly different things. UIUC is not particularly easy to get into.

Apr 20, 2016

All I'm really going to say is, notice how the Certified Users are all telling you to go to CMC, while the college kids are saying it doesn't matter.

I went to a non-target (no IB recruiting or alumni network whatsoever), and I would take CMC without thinking about it twice. Even if you decide against banking, CMC is still an excellent school. Undergrad does make a difference.

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Apr 20, 2016

CMC, no questions.

Apr 20, 2016

I went to a top liberal arts school in the Northeastern US that places a handful of econ students each year at GS and places well at other firms. I also volunteer as a coach of a sports team at a lower ranked school in the Northeast.

There is no comparison between the intellectual capabilities and qualities of the students. My best friends from undergrad are now extremely successful entrepreneurs with tons of useful connections - some of whom are in the Forbes 100 list. The kids graduating from the school I volunteer at face poor outcomes and their rich parents still fork over 50k+/year for attendance. They will never have the opportunities that I have because I went to the undergrad school that I went to.

I can't count how many times I've been in a meeting and been asked where I went to undergrad and the response has been "Wow that's a great school". This shit matters for the first 5-8 years after you graduate.

You are who you surround yourself with and at CMC you will be around a much better quality of student. You'll make new friends that will end up being your close network for life.

Take the debt. You'll seriously regret it if you don't.

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Apr 20, 2016

CMC hands down. Take the debt and get as high of a GPA as you can.

You cannot put a monetary value on a great education that separates wheat from the chaff. If you are on this forum in high school you'll look at this post years later and laugh about how you even considered the alternative.

Apr 20, 2016

There's nothing going for UIC. It's not even UofI. The debt to attend CMC will be worth it.

Apr 20, 2016

CMC any day of the week. Its a top liberal arts school with a fantastic Econ/Finance department. Moreover, the school has a program where you can get a BA and an MA in Finance concurrently, with a scholarship through the Robert Day School at CMC (Founder of TCW). This year's students are heading to IBD at BAML, GS (FIG and SS), JPM, Houlihan RX, Millstein, Deutsche Bank and Wells Fargo. S&T students are heading to GS, Morgan Stanley and JPM.

CMC is perceived as one of the best schools on the west coast. You can't go wrong.

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Apr 20, 2016

WTF is Millstein? Hopefully OP doesn't end up there haha. I like how you just tried to slip them by in that list.

May 3, 2016

Millstein and Co., prestigious restructuring firm in NYC.

Apr 20, 2016

The only way I can see the decision to go to UIC panning out is you getting a 4.0 there and then going to a top grad school. Which brings up 2 problems:

  1. Getting a 4.0 and a stellar GRE isn't all that easy anywhere.
  2. Top grad school probably means getting a loan once you're there, potentially one that covers two years at $25k+ or even way more (said grad school probably won't be at a public Illinois school).

Not to mention that recruiting from top grad programs will probably be tougher than recruiting from CMC undergrad.

Jun 21, 2017

.

Apr 20, 2016

@DickFuld is spot on. If you intend to work in finance and you get yourself a median finance job, $80k should be very manageable over a 5-10 year horizon.

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Apr 20, 2016

CMC without a doubt. Even if you had a 4.0 at UIC I wouldn't give your resume a second thought unless you had awesome work experience at a BB or something, and how are you going to get that first BB position if you go to UIC?

You could be well past 6 figures in terms of student debt in a worse case. If you find a position in tech / IBD / consulting 80-100k is very manageable.

This isn't like you're choosing between UNC and CMC.

Apr 20, 2016

UIC is the far riskier choice in this scenario. Don't make life harder for yourself for no reason. Go to CMC.

Apr 20, 2016

Just my personal experience here: I chose a non target school because of a significantly lower tuition. I still had to take out a student loan, but it's far, far lower than what I would've had if I went to a target school. I managed to get an IBD internship at a top BB; but if I could do it all over again, I would definitely take more debt and go to a target school. It's not just about jobs; it's about who you are building friendships with. Even the thought of having to pay off my student debt really sucks, but the value of that network lasts so much longer than paying off the additional $100k+ debt. At least that's how it seems to me now.

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Apr 20, 2016

I do a lot of carer counseling for people trying to break into finance (mostly IB/PE) and the number one common regret my clients have is that they opted for a weak undergrad. They thought to themselves "you know it's fine, i'll just crush it, network really hard, and i'll be fine. plus i'll avoid the debt."

if only life were that easy. it's not your fault that you have to go to a more prestigious school to have better job prospects. but reality is not fucking fair at all. now you can try to make yourself feel better and talk to yourself at night why going to UIC is not a bad idea, but objectively speaking, it could end up being a terrible decision that will cost your dearly. If you go to UIC and after 4 years end up with a job as an accounts payable analyst in United Airline's HQ in Chicago, a good job by UIC standards, you're going to regret your decisions.

Apr 20, 2016

I would look at the school's OCR. You can gauge how realistic your goals are by searching if the companies you want to work for recruit on campus. CMC just has an easier time in recruiting. I went to a target for my state, and recruiting was very easy because BB IBD came to recruit on campus. I met a few non targets who had to really work for a spot at the superday. I didn't, and life was easier for it.

Did you apply to any other places? I'm sure a good target would be willing to take you if CMC is.

Apr 21, 2016

Adding another personal anecdote.

I faced basically the same choices you are facing now. 25k/year for a top 20 undergraduate or 0k/year for a no-name state school. At the time, I didn't even know what finance was, and had zero idea of what I wanted to do with my life. 100k in debt seemed like an astronomical number. So I chose the low quality state school with the mentality that I can always go to grad school if I want a top degree.

The reality is, like many here have pointed out, that your undergraduate experience and subsequent life experience is influenced to an extraordinary degree by your fellow classmates. Being surrounded by high-caliber people who are all striving towards success is an invaluable environment. I definitely did not appreciate this enough. State schools can be alright, but in general there is a serious lack of intellectual rigor that permeates the atmosphere.

I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples, bastards, and broken things

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  • Anonymous Monkey
  •  Apr 21, 2016

I went to a no name state school. and I work in corporate finance for a Fortune 100 company with kids from Wake, Emory, Duke, and Rice. We make the same amount of money, but they have a $1,200.00 a month payment for student loans.

A degree doesn't confirm whether or not a applicant is more intelligent than another. What it does say is that perhaps you didn't have the resources necessary to fork over 100K+ for school.

Apr 24, 2016

That's bullshit. If you were qualified to get into top schools, most top target schools ensure you can afford the school. Also you can tell that you're working in the South. Southern US recruiting is a completely different ballgame than anywhere else. It's so much more based on what frat you were in and which lax team won the ACC/SEC/god knows what championship that year

Apr 21, 2016

I went to a no name state school, and currently work in corporate finance at one of the three biggest banks. I work with kids that went to Duke, Emory, Wake, and Rice. We make the same amount of money and they have a $1,200.00 a month payment for student loans.

Where you go to school doesn't define you. It says little about how intelligent you are. A psychology major at my no name state school designed a program her senior year that NASA currently uses to filter out candidates. The different between her and a Duke student is that she didn't have the resources to go to a top school.

Apr 21, 2016

It's useless when people who are the exception try to paint themselves are the norm. This is just distorting reality.

Apr 21, 2016

I can provide firsthand insight because I had to choose between zero money at CMC and a full ride at my state school (and several other options). I made my decision nearly a decade ago.

I picked the state school. Part of it was money, part of it was that I wanted to be at home, but probably the biggest part of it was that I didn't understand how different the opportunity set is if you go to a top school. I wanted to do investment banking and honestly, having chosen the state school, my chances were close to nil. I ended up graduating at the top of the class but with no OCR and no connections, I did not get a banking analyst job despite some swings and misses.

Do I regret my choice? No. Things worked out. I had a fantastic time in undergrad, learned an incredible amount (there are good professors at every school), and made great lifetime friends. I kept working hard at my post-UG job, kept learning about finance, and now, a few years out, I am now at business school and am heading to a boutique investment bank for the summer as a summer associate.

Bottom line: Smart, hardworking people will succeed. But succeeding is easier if you come from a strong school.

Hope this helps.

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Apr 22, 2016

Relating to @Disjoint comments, I just wanted to add about CMC... I have basically never heard of the school outside of reading this site. I am located in Philadelphia. For whatever reason it's not all that well known.

I don't know how people from LA view a school like say Amherst but prob not nearly as favorably as people in the Northeast.

Apr 22, 2016

CMC. I was in a similar situation when I was a high school senior, deciding between getting around 30k in debt to attend UVA (target for many top consulting firms and IB's) and a couple of schools in Florida which would have paid me to attend. I have never questioned the decision or looked back to choose UVA.

Since you are on WSO, I assume you at least have some fleeting interest in finance as a future career path. As other monkeys have said, prestige of your university matters more in that field than most.

Apr 22, 2016

I went to UIC..I only know 2 people that broke into IB. One of them was me (was only able to get in after doing an MBA at a top 10 program) and another was a friend of mine who had a family friend who was an MD. I would strongly recommend CMC..not based on trying to break into IB but just due to the long term benefit of going to a decently respected school. UIC is a joke. I do understand the burden of student loans as my wife has 6 figures of student loan debt and we're paying it off and I'm still advising you to go to CMC.

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Apr 23, 2016

For finance it does unfortunately. Unless you simply can't afford it.

Apr 24, 2016

I took a full ride at a non-target, albeit a major state school and ended up fine. If you can hustle then do it. If not, then don't.

It's nice though graduating with zero student debt and making a couple hundred K a year within a few years

Apr 24, 2016

let me add this..

i went to a state school because I could not afford the private one that placed kids at mutual funds/banking jobs in Boston and NYC. I could not get the loans because i didnt have a credit worthy cosigner.

My life would have turned out vastly different if I would have attended that school. If you have the means to attend, I would go. Or atleast attend a school inbetween the the two in terms of level of prestige and cost.

Apr 24, 2016

Quick point: UIC is one of many routes into the gazillion Chicago prop shops. If you choose UIC and study CS, and you can do well in a technical interview, you can break in as a quant developer at a Jump or TMG. In some sense this leapfrogs you out of years of toil on the sellside.

You guys keep assuming that for all jobs the hiring process is the same. That's not necessarily true. In tech it really comes down to the interview and your projects. If the end goal is a quant role or fintech, there's even an argument that UIC is a slightly better choice for the same cost. I have two coworkers who started at UIC and finished as quants. I don't personally know anybody from CMC on the other hand.

But yes if the goal is banking or PE, Claremont wins.

Apr 24, 2016

I'm surprised no one has suggested that you go somewhere cheaper for the first 2 years of undergrad, bust your ass, and then transfer to a more prestigious school for your final 2 years. Seems like the best of both worlds, no?

But if the choice has to be between these 2 with no transferring, take CMC hands down. I'm telling you this as a guy who went to a non-target state school. This shit still follows me 5 years after graduation. I would definitely do it over differently if I could...

Apr 25, 2016
design:

I'm surprised no one has suggested that you go somewhere cheaper for the first 2 years of undergrad, bust your ass, and then transfer to a more prestigious school for your final 2 years. Seems like the best of both worlds, no?

But if the choice has to be between these 2 with no transferring, take CMC hands down. I'm telling you this as a guy who went to a non-target state school. This shit still follows me 5 years after graduation. I would definitely do it over differently if I could...

How often does that happen though? I always heard my HS classmates way back when talk about doing that.......but it never seemed to happen. I went to pretty good undergrad (T10-15), and ran into maybe 1 transfer student ever. Anecdotal, but I'm curious if this is actually a common thing. Wouldn't the top schools prefer to simply focus on the students they've been molding from the start (and bilking for $$$)? If it was so easy to transfer, why wouldn't everyone simply do that?

Apr 24, 2016

Faced somewhat similar choices and my advice is somewhat more nuanced. I think going to a good UG (I chose the cheap option btw) can be very helpful; however, you need to ask yourself what the strength of your family network is. If you parents know people in IB/Consulting and you're smart enough to get into a good school, I think the state school is a reasonable option.

That said, looking back, I kinda wish I'd gone to the target school, just cause it would've saved me a lot of anxiety in the end.

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Apr 25, 2016

This is the most privileged shit I've ever seen on here. You essentially said that you didn't have to worry about going to a target because mommy/daddy already worked in IB and could snag you a job and you assume that this is a feasible option for most people. Christ

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Apr 25, 2016

I didn't say that's what happened for me. I ended up accelerating my UG to only 18 months and going back to a semi-target for the MSF, so basically did the more painful and expensive version of the CMC option. Nobody I'm related to works for or has ever worked in IB (parents are professors).

My comment wasn't clear, in retrospect. Either way, I was just trying to help:

My intended point was the target designation is typically worth it, with the caveat that it is not if you have connections to begin with.

Apr 24, 2016

CMC is a target right? I've heard others call it a semi but imo it is a target. OP: illini raised some valid points.

Apr 25, 2016

This doesn't just apply to college selection: Don't choose something simply because it is cheep. Within your budget, always choose the most expensive one.

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Apr 28, 2016

@IlliniProgrammer the kid would be better set up for all those fields coming out of CMC vs UIC, I don't even know why this is a conversation. If it were UIUC then perhaps this would be different but it's not so I think CMC is by far the better choice, despite the debt.

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Apr 29, 2016

Look, my earlier comment was more of a general complaint that WSO tends to optimize for IBD and not other industries. In this case I agree a more holistic analysis doesn't change the decision in favor of CMC and actually works a bit against my QR/S&T argument. But my point is that some argument that depends on what's good for IBD is good for tech; is good for a startup is a really weak argument.

And I do think that while CMC is a clear win for IBD, UIC would be a modestly better choice for prop trading or QR.

Apr 28, 2016

CMC. Another issue people haven't brought up, is that working/middle class culture is much different than upper-middle/upper class culture. By going to a top school, you can become acculturated on all the subtle differences. This is very important for client-centric business like banking and consulting. When I was in high school, I didn't know how to get a suit that fits, or even that I was supposed to put a napkin on my lap when I ate dinner. My friends who went to shitty schools never learned these lessons and others, so even with top grades they aren't able to pass the fit part of the recruiting process.

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Apr 28, 2016
Hillary2016:

or even that I was supposed to put a napkin on my lap when I ate dinner.

Wow your parents must've been a DISASTER, just like Hillary was as Secretary of State

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Apr 28, 2016
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Apr 29, 2016
Comment

"A modest man, with much to be modest about"

Apr 29, 2016
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May 1, 2016