The $$$ of a Stay at Home Wife
I was pretty surprised by the dichotomy in attitudes around working wives in the Power Couples thread so I thought it’d be fun to discuss the logistics, economics and feasibility around kept women. This should be especially informative for you 16 year olds on this site who have no fucking idea what you’re talking about
Note - this only really applies to people who want to stay in major metro areas with HCOL, so don’t preach at me about life in Texas or Florida or Arkansas, thanks
Let’s start with a story. A buddy of mine just started the divorce process and is stressed the fuck out. His wife is kind of a loser but she is/was pretty hot. Anyway, she stopped working when they got married since he made about quadruple what she made and she had literally zero assets when they did. Now she wants half of what’s in his 401k/IRA accounts because he “cheated her” out of retirement savings of her own since, you know, she didn’t work in addition to spousal support because she is, once again, a loser. Never mind the fact that she was unemployed for 2 years out of college and hadn’t saved a cent of her meager earnings for the 4 years she had worked by the time she met him. He married her because he (and his peepee) fell in love with a seemingly supportive, fun, carefree chick, and now he fucking hates the lazy, illogical banshee that she truly is. Feelings change, kids. Don’t make big decisions off of feelings.
But let’s say you don’t get divorced. Now you’re tasked with providing for not only your children but also your decorative ornament of a spouse. A stay at home wife contributes nothing to the household’s bottom line other than a set of hands that stays home because her earning potential is so low that it wouldn’t make sense otherwise — a treasure indeed. So, sure, your childcare is covered, but what about everything else? You will be the sole provider of the housing, food, clothing, healthcare and expenditures related to education, grooming, technology, leisure, and travel of 2+ human beings.
If that isn’t enough of a mindfuck, you will also be tasked with saving enough for retirement for the BOTH of you since she can’t contribute shit to anything on her own. Yes, you can open up a spousal IRA, but you’d still be the only one contributing to it. And what happens if something happens to your job or your bonus sucks should another pandemic come around in the future? Covid is fairly mild but what happens if some serious shit hits? I think this is the biggest consideration that people are missing when talking about single/ dual incomes and is probably related to how millennials are all about conspicuous consumption and delaying seriously saving for retirement. You are literally borrowing from your 80 year old wrinkly ass self to fund that yacht week in Croatia on your $200k comp
And none of this is taking into account the fact that salaries aren’t keeping up with inflation and that $1 today will be the equivalent of $0.50 by the time your kids are in high school or college. That is, you’ll need to make $800k in 2040 to afford the upper middle class life that your dad provided on $200k back in 2000. And, no, UMC doesn’t mean family trips to Bora Bora, Sunday night dinners at Batard or new iPhones for all every year. UMC is two low-key trips a year, a modest place in a safe neighborhood and possibly public school.
Bring on your arguments about marriages being more nuanced than all of this because you are a child if you truly believe that feelings are all that matter. If you think that you can afford a stay at home wife in 2020 and beyond, I envy your naivety. But let’s chat in 20 years and see where you stand then
Cheers
EDIT: this isn’t for the sake of arguing about the merits of having a full-time mother. That’s a given. This is about the economics of maintaining such, you tards
Seems like the solution is to marry a woman with a brain and some ambition. Not to shit on your buddy but marrying a girl because she's a 10 that likes to have fun likely isn't the best life decision.
I don't know bout you, but I'm doing both.
That's the unicorn zone
cuffs fortunately aren't on yet but when they do I can assure you it won't be by some bimbo
*was a 10
Just for clarification, because you seem to love this Maduro-esque inflation narrative, the real value of salaries in the US increased 4% from 1979 to 2018 and real wage growth has been consistently positive for the last 7 years. Not sure where you're getting this info from.
real inflation in the US has been running ~ 8% per year
LOL by what measure
actual costs
cost of housing cost of healthcare cost of education (college / private school now 70k/year) cost of food cost of transportation
average 8% annual inflation
He might be onto something, I just paid $30 for a fucking 2ft lightning cable at a 7/11
You just said real inflation
Cost of living then. % change in nyc is very different vs. rest of the US, unless you want to nitpick on that also
A big variable is how many kids you have. "Sure your childcare is covered" is glossing over that pretty quickly.
Say you have two who aren't in school yet. If your wife works, there are some fixed costs associated with that: commuting/vehicle costs, clothing, food (probably a lot more "no time, let's order out"), and obviously daycare. Plus you're in a higher tax bracket with two incomes, so the post-tax value of the second job is lower. The salary break-even point isn't that low. Of course, if your wife is a few rungs up the ladder in finance, biglaw, etc. it will be well worth it, but only a small number of people are in that category.
Unless the sole earner is making
If you want to think about this strictly from a numbers standpoint, you really have to put a cost on 3rd party childcare per kid over the years. Lets just say its 150K per year/kid from 0-3yr and then 100K per year/kid from 3-18. Lets say you have 2 kids 3 years apart and your wife decides to stay home with them from 0-3 (not for economics just to take time when the kids are young), that means she is out of the traditional workforce for 6 years, now she wants to go back to work how many jobs can you pull down enough money to cover the cost of 3rd party childcare when you take 6 years off, especially if you are looking for flexibility so you can still take a very active role in the child care. I guess what I am getting at is that your odds of marrying someone who has that ability is pretty small.
Another thing to consider is that there are plenty of smart driven people who elect to peruse careers that are not lucrative, just because it makes more economic sense for them to stay home does not make them bad partners and someone who you "do not want around your kids". I totally agree with the logic of not marrying someone who is lazy and not smart but being smart and driven does not always translate to money.
TLDR don't be a simp and marry someone who has ambition
As an aside, a friend of mine who runs his own company says that his female employees' productivity is permanently, significantly lower once they come back from maternity leave after having their first kid. That definitely matches my experience sitting in the office near women who have kids. Their job isn't the number one priority in their lives anymore. Men are better at compartmentalizing when they're at work. Call it the sexist expectations of society or nature, but it happens.
PTJ got a ton of shit for saying exactly this a while back
Marry someone with a good personality, brains, and ambition. Avoid marrying someone who is carefree and lazy. Find someone who is fun enough, but can also be serious. Personality > looks. Seems like a simple solution...
Let's just say hypothetically, okay ?
What if they have a good personality ?
Are you saying someone who is hot and has a good personality? That exists. I'm married to someone who hits all the things that are important to me and she's beautiful. My point was that I value her personality more because that's how I don't end up divorced in several years
Marry someone smart and hard working. Not someone that was a bartender and coasted by.
No rocket science involved.
I recently heard of a divorce where the wife was an accountant making 100k and the husband was a surgeon making 900k. Wife demands divorce because they are "incompatible". The wife demanded a high alimony from the husband because of "the difference" in their income and took half of his assets. The wife came from a very wealthy family as well, whereas the husband didn't.
I also heard of another divorce where both the of spouses were both making 400k each, but the wife would spend a ton of money, whereas the husband was more of a saver. Wife cheats on husband, demands a divorce. Again, the wife took half of the martial assets in the divorce.
A lot of posters on here are saying to date ambitious girls. I've dated many ambitious girls, in finance, law, medicine, etc. Honestly, they are worst... always unhappy, always want more. If they are making 200k +, they expect their husbands to fly them in private jets.
There's no right answer, anything can happen to anyone. There are many marriages that are successful with stay at home wives (even husbands), and many marriages that end up in divorce with both spouses working.
Many prenups don't even work. So what do you do? Cross your fingers and hope for the best. Or alternatively, just don't get married...
Ooook. My uncle is a surgeon at a top hospital and doesn’t make anywhere near 900k and also didn’t start making real money until he was in his late 30s. Alimony and division of community property also don’t really work that way if either of those ex wives were working unless they were married for decades or had kids
Your other examples are cautionary tales of avoiding shitty idealistic people who are incapable of living within their means. You should avoid both the girl who LovEs To TraVeL on her $80k salary and the girl who blows the entirety of her $500k salary on designer shoes. Income potential has nothing to do with fiscal responsibility
The couple was actually in their late 30s. She had supported him through med school and residency and thus was given alimony by the court.
The point I'm trying to make is that anything can happen. In the same way finance is more of an art than science, same applies to marriages and relationships. No absolute truths.
On a separate note, lot of physicians are clearing 7 figures + these days. This isn't 2012 anymore, finance salaries have declined/stagnated while medicine/tech salaries have gone up considerably. Just where the economy and world is headed.
My dad is an accountant of a small hospital system in a small town of about 80k people. The highest paid person there was a heart surgeon who made about 900k. So it is possible, but he was the only heart surgeon and this guy was literally on call 24/7. My dad played a round of golf was him and like half the time the surgeon was on the phone telling nurses what to do. Sounded extremely stressful. Normal surgeons at the hospital make around 300-400k
Marriage isn't really worth it
Sounds like the moral of the story is to get a prenup
Courts can throw that out, esp in this political climate
How can this happen? Can you elaborate?
Yeah that's what you'd think but do some research into actually getting one written up and you'd see that it's not much of a saving grace at all lol. The only difference is that WITH a prenum you know EXACTLY how you're gonna get fucked, without one, you're just getting fucked blind
A lot of people here are saying "just marry a smart and/or ambitious woman." But is it really fair to expect a woman who is smart and intelligent just to wash dishes and clean the house? IMO she should work at least part time to keep the brain active. Personally, I am fully against the women just staying at home.
I've always thought the same thing. My mom stayed at home the entirety of my years at home and continued to do so with my younger siblings and it always baffled me how she didn't go crazy with absolutely no mental/intellectual stimulation in her daily life. I'm a female and am completely certain that I don't want kids (for a variety of reasons), but if I was forced to both have kids and stay home, I think I would actually go insane from the intellectual monotony to the extent that it would negatively impact the kids.
Very fascinating source: https://www.unifiedlawyers.com.au/blog/global-divorce-rates-statistics/. Just dropping it here, respond how you want to. I think it is interesting to analyze.
Interesting to see Hindu, one of the most conservative sects of people, have close to a zero divorce rate.
I'm too young for this shit.
So moral of the story is to not listen your pee-pee when it comes marrying a hot chick?
Going to provide some actual info from someone with experience with a wall street dad and stay at home mom. My dad runs a mid-sized hedge fund and my mom doesn't work. She left her (decently paying) job when I was born, and started to volunteer fulltime when my younger brother went to college.
Never underestimate how much shit a stay at home spouse can deal with. Without my mom, my dad would legitimately need multiple full time employees to manage our household/his life. My mom does everything from cook dinner every night to paying bills to dealing with stuff around the house. If you look at what a high paying wall street guy makes a year and divide that per hour, their time is very very valuable. Sure, my dad could pay his own credit card bills and cook his own dinner if he only cared about dollars in his bank account, but that would be a massive waste of his time and if my mom disappeared, he would probably need to hire a chef and a personal finance manager to deal with shit like that. Also, we have multiple vacation houses- my mom is the one who flies to the hamptons in the winter or florida in the summer to meet with architects or oversee some maintenance. We go on vacation every year- my mom is the one who deals with booking the trip. Let's say we need something like a new car- take a guess who deals with it?
My dad would probably go insane if he had to deal with all the things I list above. Basically, a stay at home spouse provides support on all the areas of life that are just a pain in the ass, and I really think my moms attention to all the nonsense in life has allowed my dad to focus more on work and be successful. Sure, if you look at my family's expenses, my mom's car and designer purses seem like a waste of money, but you need to consider the value of unpaid work a stay at home spouse does for a family. Also, I have friends with lots of money but both parents work and they were raised by nannies, dinner cooked by chefs every night, etc and those kids generally are way more screwed up than someone who got raised by a parent. I would personally not feel very comfortable with some foreign 25 year old lady shaping my kids while me and my wife go to work.
Assuming I'm able to land a good job and make good money, I would 100% want a spouse that stays at home. If I was making 200k, it would likely be worth my wife going to work just to increase our family income, but if I was making a million+ I would really want a stay at home spouse.
Also, this post completely ignores the emotional aspect of marriage. Get married for something other than money...
Totally get what you are saying and I grew up somewhat the same. Parents had us pretty late, dad lucked out with early investments, mom was well-educated and could’ve had a good job, etc but there is a big difference in having a capable mom who stayed at home because our dads could afford it versus a mom who stayed at home because she didn’t possess the ability to make any meaningful contribution otherwise. I know a lot of people with stay at home moms who give horrible life advice whose kids don’t respect them because they’re borderline retarded and don’t know how the world works
Anyway, the bigger point is that we are no longer living in our parents’ time. My dad laughs about how you just applied to your pick of Harvard/Yale/Princeton back in the day and went. There was no OCR or scheming or thirsting for jobs in finance. Anyone could pick up a house, or a few, back in their days when even any old savings account gave them like 8% back. The good ol days are over. Times are different now
Also, that argument about kids who were fucked up by nannies and working parents is bullshit. There’s a huge difference between your kid being raised by a retarded 24 year old au pair and a legit nanny or knowledgeable adult figure
strongly agree- if my mom was a retarded bimbo, she probably would not be capable of doing everything she does (and then this model falls apart). I would definitely make sure someone I’m marrying is smart and capable, but my post was more to show that there are cases where a stay at home spouse can be a sensible choice
Definitely agree with this. My parents have this same structure - albeit without your family’s level of wealth - but it has been great overall.
This is great. Best wife is someone with pedigree, wealthy family, but very frugal and loves kids.
Waiting for the “ranking prestige of wife” threads or “wife prestige as investment banks” thread...
when talking about women/ideal wives, why not stop for a second and take a look at the mirror. and think deeply, why would a wealthy, highly-educated, smart, beautiful, have-it-all woman marry some random making these comments on this forum? before you stop to think about that question, all the talk about ideal types would just be an absolute waste of time.
completely agree. the whole “wow she was a loser she stayed at home and didnt work” mentality shows how socially incompetent some of the posters are here. It’s like life = work; if you dont work full time and get nannies to raise your kids your a loser. Some people who stay at home to look after their kids do it because they genuinely love their family. How their kids turn out is viewed to them as more important than trying to maintain full time work and be viewed as ‘competent’ - a decision that is great if you have a spouse earning more. I do agree as someone mentioned to have parttine work however, keep the brain active but also not neglecting your kids
Agreed. My mom could likely get a job and make a few hundred thousand, but it just doesn't make sense because it wouldn't change anything for my family and it would mean someone else has to pick up the slack with all the unpaid work around the house. I like to think I turned out ok, and give a lot of credit to my mom for being around to make sure of that. After seeing the sort of bums at prep school that got raised by nannies and are complete fuckwads, I would really feel uncomfortable letting someone besides me or my wife be responsible for raising my kids.
I completely agree. I am in a similar situation. My dad runs a Long Only Investment Fund and mom stays at home. Both are incredibly smart and both have masters in STEM fields. Mom takes care of a lot of the house stuff that she obviously doesn't get paid for. But I think a bigger reason I would want a stay-at-home wife is to make sure my kids grow up properly. You need a smart person who's gone through the journey your children are going through to be able to guide them. I think it also instills values that no nanny/chef/etc can. For example, if someone were to be raised by paid help, they'll look at everything being a transaction because they grew up seeing the people who cared for them, getting paid for it (and the people being there only as long as the money was good). Having a parent care for you can really instill good morals and values since you see them working hard for nothing in return. At my high school, there were many people who's parents weren't at home most of the time, or didn't care about kids, and I can promise that those kids are not what I would want from a child.
Again, no one is denying the benefits of having a smart, capable mother running the home. If dad is pulling in $1MM, then by all means. The point of this thread, however, is to discuss 1) if we can really afford that In this day and age and 2) if it’s preferable to have someone who isn’t very smart and/or has never had a job as a stay at home wife versus an educated working wife
So many kids in my high school class had two high powered parents and are just complete screw ups because they never had any parental oversight and were raised by a 25 year old nanny. When you watch a kid who's parents rake in 40 mil a year get kicked out of high school for selling whippets, you understand that having parents around growing up is important. Again, this obviously changes if having two incomes would significantly change your standard of living, but if you can afford it I am a strong supporter of a stay at home parent.
Completely agree with this. Thank you for taking time out of your day to write this. I had a similar experience growing up.
Awesome insight, thanks for sharing
If you’re a male making a lot of money, what is the advantage whatsoever to getting married as opposed to just having a long term girlfriend? to “fit in” with your loser neighbors? to meet your parents expectations? tax benefits? after hearing stories like this I wonder why so many people (50%) fall into this trap and end up getting married and then divorce
Lot of tax benefits to getting married. Either you give a good chunk of salary to taxes or utilize the favorable marriage tax code to utilize tax avoidance. Yes, there is a good probability of getting divorced and having your wife taking half of your wealth. But I guess its still worth taking the risk rather than giving money to the government.
It depends on your perspective. The level of commitment determines the level of effort the girl is going to give.
The only reason to get married is to have kids. GFs are the correct answer until you are committed and ready to breed.
Most high value women who know their potential will not wait around for you indefinitely while remaining merely your GF.
I don't agree with taking half my man's assets in a divorce just because I have a vag. That said, let's not pretend like the labors of motherhood aren't quantifiable, much less worth nothing. It's a thankless job, and raising kids worth a damn is not an easy feat.
The last line is very true.
One issue I have with people, "quantifying" the value of a stay at home wife by summing expenses is that it doesn't capture the full value of raising a child the right way (whatever that means to you) . I'd want someone that my child would spend ~30-50% of their formative years with to mirror my values / parenting style somewhat.
You don't need to be a role model / well-rounded genius to raise a child, but I'd certainly prefer that a person who I find admirable raises my kids. Good luck finding someone with that background / those traits for the ~$100-130k that high end nannies in NYC make.
You can be stay at home and do part time jobs :)
I see a lot of MD's wives end up doing RE to their husband's wealthy friends.
your should value your partner and vice versa. comments here are mostly terrible. shame.
Why does everyone generalize their potential partners based on their ambition or whatever? When has that made sense in real life like ever? Human relationships are complicated and pretty unique. I've started watching Mad Men and seeing spouses like Betty just cooped up in their homes was hard to watch. Times have obviously changed unbelievably but I really hope these sort of expectations on wives have completely disappeared from this country.
Just my two cents, but don't expect modern TV shows to portray the role of a housewife in a positive manner. There are a lot of women on Youtube and other relatively more independent platforms that explain their decision to stay at home and how it is actually something that is very fulfilling and rewarding. It's hard to understand this when a lot of people/the culture in general tries to make housewives all seem like Betty Draper, but this definitely isn't the case.
It really is amazing how negatively Hollywood portrays family life in general. There are lots of TV shows and movies in which literally every character is either single or in a completely fucked up marriage with tons of cheating and misery. The kids over the age of twelve all have serious personal issues, and can't talk to their parents without pouring on the sarcasm. Those things exist in real life, but not nearly to the extent that they're shown in TV or movies.
Mad Men definitely falls into that category. It's a very subversive show if you look at it below the surface level. A lot of people look back fondly on that time in American history, and the show's creators play to their nostalgia by nailing every aesthetic element of the era. So that draws people in, and then the plot portrays the appealing surface as just a veneer over a bunch of miserable hypocrites. Again, literally every single marriage is seriously fucked up, which simply doesn't match reality.
There are lots of problems in any era, but if you actually talk to older people who lived through the '50s and early '60s, their memory of the time is usually nowhere near that bad. Often they say it was much better than today in important ways. But now, because of Mad Men, everyone "knows" that it was a deeply screwed up era filled with miserable hypocrites in nice clothes.
My point isn't that there is anything wrong with being a housewife. It's that there shouldn't be any expectations to be a housewife.
This community really clings onto this "issue" when it's really a matter of personal preference. Just talk to your significant other before you tie the knot to get on the same understanding of how your marriage will go. Stay-at-home mothers aren't lazy, and career women don't neglect their children. There are pros and cons to both sides, and it depends on your current and/or future situation.
I have said it before and I will say it again: Marry a HOT DOCTOR or HOT DENTIST.
I find it interesting that a forum like WSO does have a number of men who are worried about asset seizure through a divorce court at some point in their marriage. Isn't this something we should be good at? Make assets invisible? I am not married, but a pretty high number of my friends are married and about half is divorced or about to. Some found really creative ways of making their net worth disappear.
This is the topic of discussion my male colleagues have had on many occasions. The very rough estimate to replace a full time stay at home mom is (obviously there's gonna be a lot of debate around other advantages of having a mother's attention and love growing up as a child etc..but if we were to just reduce things to pure numbers) : 1x PA + 1x full time Nanny = 150k to 200k per year depends on the quality of hire
The entire thread was about the economics of having a stay at home spouse and you are literally one of the only people who spoke to that. SB
It depends a lot on whether you and your partner see it as an equally important job to raise children as you see yours. If this is about yoga partners - the answer is quite clear. Personally, I value my children not growing up with random / multiple nannies very highly and to have the partner not work is therefore an active decision jointly made and the partner needs to have financial security despite not producing income.
Goal is to have the wife work until we decide we can make it off my income alone. Plan is to just keep savings high for a long time and invest as much as possible. Would love to buy another place and put mine up for rent in the next couple years.
I just got married last year and I've been having some anxiety about my wife and her ability to work long-term or be successful in her field. At the time we got married, she had been in a decently paying job for about 3 years, even though she was making about half of what I do.
After we got married she starting feeling really terrible in her job-- a lot of the problems existed before, but came to a head. She was miserable all the time and it affected our home life. Anyway, my read was that the situation was fixable, but it required my wife to stop being so passive, have some hard conversations and stop letting people fuck her over or use her as a scapegoat. Her solution was to runaway and quit, with NOTHING in the pipeline. This has happened before. Situations that I think could probably have been mitigated with her standing up for herself or nipping something in the bud earlier, become untenable because of her inability to face conflict or difficult conversations head-on. She's also not exactly a star employee. She goes to work, does her job, but nothing extra--- and it was really obvious in her last position since it seemed like she had a bunch of super stars around her that would go the extra mile.
My salary currently covers our bills, but there's not much leftover to save-- though I am still on the lower end of my career trajectory, so this will change. I am worried that my wife is never going to be able to keep a job and I didn't really sign up to be the sole breadwinner when we got married. That's not what I envisioned for our financial future. I love my wife and she will be an amazing mother, but I have problems with accepting her lack of ambition. I am a mover and a shaker and someone that is very motivated and driven to reach the highest levels of my industry. I always pictured myself as part of a power couple and it's been difficult to pivot on that vision even though I love my wife. I am not saying I am leaving her or anything, but I do find it hard to accept sometimes.
Not to offend, but is that attractive to you?
No offense taken-- It's complicated, because I do feel that all of us is a work in progress and so maybe this something that will improve.Though I don't have any illusions about trying to mold our spouses into who we want them to be. You're right partly that those qualities I described, I don't find attractive. But she does have many wonderful qualities that I do find attractive that aren't based around work.
Sorry this has gotten a little off topic of the thread, but the conclusion I've come to is that I think all of us to some extent view ourselves through the prism of who we marry. We reflect that person so heavily in our own selves and identity. That's why negative traits of our spouses bother us more than say those of an acquaintance. The biggest thing that has helped me is trying to take a step back from that and remember that I am my own person, that does things a certain way, and my wife is another distinct person. When I see her doing something I disagree with in the workplace, I have to remember that it doesn't have to affect me. I can take it or leave (to some extent). That's really been helpful for me in accepting people as they are and not who I want them to be. It's when others' behavior is so toxic that it affects you and your behaviour, your intensity, your motivation--- that's when it's got to end. If your wife us staying home and she supports you and makes doing your job easier, great! If she sits around and nags you that you 'never take her anywhere' and spends all your money, not so good. If she is a high-powered professional, but your relationship is shit because she never has time for you, how is that better? It all depends on if your spouse is allowing you to be the best person you want to be. Just my two cents.
Out of curiosity, how long had you guys been dating prior to getting married, and to follow that: if you knew you wanted a 'power-couple' type marriage, how did her poor work performance never come up while you were dating?
Hate to say it , but it’s your issue that you’re not earning enough. Cut your expenses and keep the wife at home. Happy wife = happy life. Have her her be your support system rather than another earner. Maybe her support will propel you even further in your career?
You're right. I am still early in my career, so I am counting on the financial aspect of this problem to improve. The hardest part was giving up my unrealistic ideal of being 'part of a power couple', a dream that I probably conjured up in my head when I was in high school, hardly reality. I think the takeaway for me was, we can always be surprised by who we fall in love with. I always thought I'd end up with one type of woman, and my wife is very different than that idea--- but it works.
since you have just said yourself that the type that she is actually works for you - whereas your previous conception of an ideal actually didn't work out for you - isn't that clear enough of a sign that you should give up your long-time obsession with the power couple ideal? half of your current trouble comes from that conception in your mind.
How in the world does this continue to be an ongoing debate between the 19 year olds on this site?
Marry whomever you want.
I'm not sure why it is wrong for us to debate about this. I get that you are happily married and everything worked out nicely for you. But for the rest of us worried about real life situations and potential divorce, we need discussions like this.
I wasn’t arguing about freedom to choose your spouse, I wanted to focus the economic feasibility of letting her stay at home
Of course this is WSO and the question does not get answered, or even considered, and it turns into a hodgepodge of opining on everything not having to do with the economics of a single income household
"letting her stay at home" Women aren't the problem, your outdated and misogynistic views are. That's what's going to cost you your fortune in a divorce settlement if anything.
I live in NYC and my wife worked in the medical profession pulling $130K (higher than most wives, I imagine). I earn a decent living but I would say on par for a high-finance professional in their 30s in a tier-1 city. Even though it was a difficult decision considering the wife has more than 2x the higher-ed I have, it made economic sense for her to quit and be a stay-at-home mom, particularly when we had our second kid. We did the dual income + full-time nanny thing and it was challenging not only because most of her post-tax income went to childcare (you need a nanny even when your kid goes to preschool) but also b/c the kid was developing poor habits while being watched by someone who doesn't have a vested, non-economic interest in him/her.
If we had to resort to this, anyone whose wife is pulling less will likely come to the same conclusion. Dual income sounds good, but without family nearby that you trust to actually help out or you just NGAF about how your kids are raised, it is actually much more difficult to follow through.
Edit: in hindsight, we both agree we made the right decision, especially the wife (who expectedly was very reticient to quit her career so short into it). Anyone who has actually had children can attest that raising them is a much harder job than working, particularly if you've received higher ed and work a lucrative job that you don't hate.
Do you think it might’ve been the choice of caretaker? I grew up with a nanny/ housekeeper and she definitely gave a shit about us (or at least was very good at pretending to) and stayed at with us until I was in high school. She taught me a lot that my parents never could’ve just because she brought a different viewpoint to everything
I’d say it’s probably very rare (or expensive) to find a Mary Poppin type that you are describing. We also didn’t want to be one of those parents that were just working all the time and not have a meaningful relationship with our kids. If you’re punting the parenting to someone else I don’t really see why even be a parent to begin with.
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We had a housekeeper/ nanny that helped with housework and cooking, made sure we got to and from our lessons/ sports, etc. My mom did not work but she was really involved with volunteering, her own friends/ sport club, and tending to my grandparents because my grandpa was unwell for a long time. I don’t think it’s that uncommon to have help even when one spouse isn’t working, especially with multiple kids and when dad has to travel/ entertain (with mom in tow) quite often
Not once did I say that having a stay at home mom was detrimental for me personally as my mom is whip smart and admirable, although I do think that one of my sisters justifies her complacency and entitlement because our mom didn’t work (despite the fact that our mom is everything that she is not). My mom stayed at home but she graduated from a top school, is resourceful/ well-read/ interesting, and very well could have worked a good job for a respectable salary, she just didn’t need to
No one would argue that having a parent at home would be more beneficial than a stranger raising said child(ren). My point is that keeping a spouse at home may not be economically feasible in this day and age + that someone who possesses the level of intelligence/ drive that I’d want in a partner would probably not be ok with staying at home forever unless I was pulling in $1MM, which I expect neither I nor most of you on here will, at least not anytime in the near future
I don’t know how old you are but the vast majority of the girls I’ve met who dream of having babies and never having to work again are not the type of person I’d want raising my kids or having by my side for the long run. Any person who merely chugs along in a job that doesn’t challenge them and for which they have no long term goals is a red flag for me, personally, and not someone I want to surround myself with, either as friends or my future spouse. That is me though, and other people will have different priorities (ie carefree, fun and hot)
I don’t even know why this would be fishy because I’m trying to provide realistic common sense advice for the teenagers on here who keep bringing up their childhood experiences from 15-20 years ago
I don’t get it, did you guys not discuss this before getting married and having kids? I’ve discussed this with my gf
How long has it been since you’ve been laid?
man is mad
It's ok if a woman wants to be a mom or stay in her career.
Who's to say that being a mom and raising a family isn't actually much more selfless?
P.S. This is coming from a female that wants to continue working and raising a family (with a nanny / family help)
chemistry > anatomy
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Ten years ago I was faced with the difficult decision of whether to marry my sweet and pretty GF who did not have a career ( but did have ambitions to own real estate) or to separate and try to find someone who met my ideal mental model of a working spouse. We got married. It’s been a mixed bag. She is generally still sweet and caring.
My wife tried to go to a top tier MBA, and summered at GS but ultimately dropped out and is not working. She did manage to acquire some high value property from a distressed seller which has already netted us a buck on paper and may yield a couple more bucks after redevelopment.
I am appreciative of her financial contribution. I am also frustrated to be the only one shouldering our family’s financial burden. It has limited the flexibility in my career and makes me feel like I fight the battle alone. This in turn has occasionally left me bitter and feeling taken advantage of.
But I made the choice and a decade later we continue.
One solution is that If I can make more money then she can continue acquiring property. It has been very difficult for me as a foreigner to keep being employed consistently in Asia and so I have damn near begged her to get a job (when I lost my job and got covid) but there is no desire there. She wants me to get a job and bring her money to acquire real estate. I am trying. After covid maybe I will take another job hunting trip to USA. Maybe I should be networking more on zoom. Maybe the problem isn’t Asia but my own deficiencies. I just wish we had more reliable revenue coming in to support this family, and feel it’s challenging to support the family on a single income.
I don’t know the moral of this. Just sharing for info.
I don’t think my wife is at all a loser like that layabouts mentioned above. But she comes from a culture where men are expected to support the family and further she also is actively choosing not to work. She could go back to GS or similar but doesn’t want to. This is frustrating to me, as it forces us to make do with a single income. So daily I have to go hump a job and sit a desk. This isn’t exactly how I would like to spend all of my years.
And then I come home to our infant who loves mommy and barely acknowledges daddy, because daddy is always at work.
I try to practice gratitude for her contributions. I should be even more grateful. It’s just hard when I have to pick up the bag and go into the office 80hrs a week for a job I don’t like and a family who does not seem to understand that doing so is quite difficult.
Maybe the above post makes me seem like an insensitive dick. Just being honest about how my brain sees things.
Buddy if I were you I'd sit my wife down and talk to her. Continuing to try and shoulder that burden will only increase your feelings of frustration, and possibly even resentment. If she is as smart and caring as you make her out to be, she'll understand your feelings (which to me seem valid) and work with you to come to some sort of solution. If things go the other way however, then what are you left with? A wife, or ex-wife, who gave nothing throughout the duration of your marriage and a child who as you say you have no connection with.
It's time to have a chat with her man. All the best.
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