CMV: IB is an elite career with no margin for error and is only for students from elite backgrounds
A lot of what I've been told at university and even on sites like this is that IB is still attainable even if you go to a non-target university, and whilst there may be cases like this, they are definitely the tiny minority.
I'm in the UK and networking isn't really a thing at the graduate level for entry level IB analyst positions unlike in the US where there are several instances of non-target students networking with bankers and managing to overcome their low odds and get a full time role.
In the UK, your chances are almost entirely dependent on the university you attend, where if you don't study at a small group of target universities, you don't stand a chance at graduate IB positions.
That's not to say people don't find other unconventional routes in, for example many people who fail to get IB analyst roles after graduating go to the Big 4 and get the ACA (UK equivalent of CPA) and then transfer into IB. But again, this is rare and unconventional and isn't a guaranteed/structured entry point unlike the traditional summer internship to full time offer.
Ultimately, this means there's pretty much no margin for error since you'll be competing with elite candidates from Cambridge/Oxford/LSE with flawless grades and profiles for a small number of positions in the UK.
I think because this site is US-based the information is skewed, but IB definitely seems to be more meritocratic over there where you'll still have a chance to prove yourself even if your profile isn't flawless and you messed up with your grades and went to a non-target. In the UK it's a lot more unforgiving.
At the Master's level, the target universities become even smaller and I've been told you pretty much have to go to Oxford/Cambridge/LSE/LBS and do their target programmes. Even Imperial is only a semi-target at the Master's level. If you're doing a Master's at the likes of Durham/Bath/Bristol that's not considered good enough and they are viewed as non-targets at the Master's level, although they're still semi-targets at the undergraduate level.
Obviously I'm aware that IB is a competitive industry since pretty much every finance/econ student applies, mostly for the high salaries and exit opportunities. However, I didn't truly know how restrictive it is in the UK where there's pretty much no margin for error and if you mess up your A Levels and go to a non-target you have an absolute 0% chance.
Even if you go to a really good Master's programme it isn't enough unless it's literally the very best.
I guess my point is you really have to be amongst the very best, and at least in the UK, there's no margin for error if you mess up your grades and end up at a non-target. Even trying to compensate for that with a Master's degree wouldn't work unless it's literally at the very best institutions. Simply being 'very good' doesn't cut it.
There is an emphasis on having a 'history of exceptional academic attainment' - ie. great A Levels -> target uni. The person who messes up their A Levels and goes to a non-target but gets a first and tries to compensate with a semi-target Master's degree has already ruined their chances since their A Levels negated having an exceptional academic profile. So if you make a mistake you've basically 'fallen off the train' and can't get back on since it'll be full of people who have excelled at every stage and have never messed up.
I would also appreciate UK based people to chime in on this - do you agree that this career field in the UK is 'off limits' to the vast majority of students even if they may be very good, but simply because they're not the very best applicants at the most elite universities?
Ok
Valid question, hope you get some good insights. Imo you’re right, but it should not be a surprise to anyone, that’s just how the industry is. But why is that necessarily a problem? Why should some jobs be open to anyone? Hard work / achievements should pay off. ”Elitism” is not about being born to the right family or being part of a different tax bracket. I’m the first person in my family to graduate, and my father is a cab driver. I don’t see myself as an ”elite” who was entitled to / promised a job in IB. In addition, there are other ways into IB, I’ve multiple friends that went to non-target schools or even no-name unis abroad that somehow ended up at top groups in London. So even though ”elite” unis are def helpful, it’s not impossible to get a good IB job without one
On another point, I just read through your post/comment history. Without sounding like an idiot, I would genuinely advise you to speak to a therapist about your issues man. I think that could be helpful in seeing things from a different perspective, or just venting. Also, you do seem somewhat arrogant and have a tendancy of answering your own question and completely ignoring the advice that you get.
Good luck, and hope that you get the job that you want. But dont be too harsh on yourself and stop comparing yourself to your friends that ended up getting high-paying jobs. You’ll get there too if you have the right strategy. You’re in a good school now so cheer up a bit and be proud of yourself, you’re almost there. You’re also just 21, I got my first BB job when I was 24 - one year after my graduation to be precise. Despite doing my undergrad + master at one of the target schools you mentioned, I still struggled a lot and was close to giving up multiple times. My friend entered the industry when he was 28. Again, good luck. Just have the right attitude and strategy, as well as some patience.
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Hey brother, something off topic, you based on ur prev. posts, you seem a little depressed, though i am myself a high school student not giving any career advice, but i am prepping for jee(toughest exam for undergrad), but seeing the hypercompetitive students in my batch, i was so damn depressed, and used to argument whole day cursing to be born in india, have less brain/iq than my peers. Ultimately practising MINDFULNESS/MEDITATION literally saved my life, and now i am content with whatever i get and do my hard+smart work. If you know about Gita, yes the book from which Oppenheimer said the famous nuclear bomb quote (i'm become death destroyer of the worlds) from that book itself, i suggest you read it and you might get a better perspective on life, it says, Do your deeds and don't expect the fruit, you have no right over the result only god gives us based on our current and past life deeds, (which you clearly see that you are urself responsible for that AAA mess up, and should accept it and be realistic). You should try OSHO dynamic MEDITATION, it literally saved my life, literally takes 20-30mins daily, and the relief of stress you get from it after studying for 14 hrs is just amazing.
You don't have to be from an 'elite' background to make it in IB or other high performance careers. If you are from an 'elite' background, you certainly do have a margin for error - you are allowed to make a few mistakes if your dad is an MD at Citi.
Now that being said, too many kids feel as if they are entitled to a good job. In London, bankers make 3-6x the average income in the UK (top 3% of incomes). If you are not capable of getting decent A-levels (AAA), going to a good uni and cracking technicals, why do you believe you are entitled to a role? There is always big 4 or recruitment agencies always hiring
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You still sound super entitled. Sorry but that’s just how life is, you can’t mess up and expect to get the same job as others
Um u said it urself that you are doing a masters at a semi-target. Idk man be honest to yourself did you really grind that hard?
It's definitely easily top 1% income when adjusting for age. Top 1% income is £180k in the UK which is AN3 money (3rd year out of uni)
It feels unreal making this amount of money so young - especially when u come from a working class background, far from 'elite'. Making multiples xs on my parents and friends and everyone I went to school with.
anyone crying about how unfair and competitive it is, should suck it up and take the 30k civil service job like the rest of the country
Elite career…. What a load of bull
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"Elite" - a select group that is superior to the rest of a group or soceity
No man, this is just selling your time for money in an office building
An elite career would be like Mate Rimac, founder of Rimac now CEO of Bugatti. Richard Branson. Lebron James. Christiano Ronaldo
These people have experienced more in their lives than anyone else could dream of
Skill issue
I am not coming here to answer your question. I am coming here to give you earnest advice based on the other items you have written, which had not previously come to my attention. In your prior writings, you have said several troubling things which make me genuinely concerned for your well-being:
1. You have pain from self-harm
2. You have engaged in problem drinking to divert your attention from thinking about your life and your pain from self-harm
3. You have had ideations of ending your life and have often thought that you would prefer no longer being to being
My friend from the mother country, you need help, and you need help from qualified professionals in your area who can provide it. Cognitive-behavioral therapy, psychiatric care potentially, a strong support base of friends and family, including people you could live with while you stabilize your life. You should focus on getting better, feeling better, and stopping certain behaviors which are jeopardizing your life.
Your focus should not necessarily be on getting an investment banking job right now (none of this is to say that you will not do that some day). Both of us live in stable democratic countries which are the envy of the world and would be the envy of our ancestors. Most people who have graced this planet do not have the creature comforts that we have had. We are both blessed in so many ways. You just need to mine thoughts like these for gratitude and let it fill your soul. Even if you do not reach the pinnacles of the careers you had laid out for yourself, you still have such a great chance in life of accomplishing and having so much more than virtually any other person who has lived on this Earth, and that is something to be thankful for. There are more people who care about you than you likely know. Draw on their support.
Not accomplishing everything we had in our dreams is part of the human condition. It's only natural for ambitious people to always be striving for more than what they have, but that isn't necessarily conducive to happiness or health. Sometimes we have to rewire our dreams for our own good, for to have had our dreams in the first place may have been a nightmare from which we were spared.
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I want to be tender with you, but this is not a way that I "feel" because I have read your posts. If it is true that you have been engaging in self-harm, problem drinking, and problematic ideations about whether you persist living, then those things are objectively problematic and are worthy of being addressed.
Desiring to no longer live is far from being "totally rational." Actually harming yourself or wanting to harm yourself is the ultimate irrationality. It is not promoting your interests. There is nothing rational in it. Not having yet accomplished your career ambitions does not turn this pinnacle of irrationality into a rational act. Your perceived inadequacies and failures are not material to this determination. The acts themselves are irrational per se, in themselves.
I agree that your self worth is likely to improve materially when you feel have you accomplished more in life, but it is equally true that you ought to recognize that the value of your life is not solely predicated on what you accomplish in your career. There is so much more to life than that. Not having everything you want in your career at the moment is not a rational justification for you to engage in problem behaviors that are harming yourself. It is important for your wellbeing that you recognize your life has inherent value that surpasses and transcends money, prestige, power, or whatever attributes people ascribe to a certain profession. The behaviors you have described demonstrate that this belief has not yet been internalized, so that should be a priority for you.
Not elite at all. I see multiple people from places like Durham and Kings College.
KINGS COLLEGE PRODUCED OUR FIRST SECERTARY OF THE TRESUARY!!! IMO BETTER THAN HARVARD(satire)
One thing you will grow out of is using this terrible website posting things like this when you start full time.
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It's just a terrible website. I realize that now having started. I was just looking around for FCA exam info/tips (there isn't much). As soon as that's out of the way, this website will not see me again.
you'll quickly realize how many of those AAAA students with 1:1 have been on autopilot all their lives and see meritocracy purely through an academic-centered perspective (which as an analyst, sure, you're there to offer immaculate attention to detail, but as you raise you'll realize it takes much more to expand a business: understanding competition, people, clients, etc.).
see as well the comment from above
It’s meant to be an elite industry. And still, if you manage to break into it, you are at the bottom of the pyramid as the number of spots for private equity and hedge fund is much smaller.
OP touch grass life isn’t fair. But you will make it if you believe and work hard. There’s people richer than bankers in London that didn’t do ib think about singers like central cee and Dave or even that snowfall lad. There’s multiple ways to success don’t limit yourself just to this industry.
Lol
100% agree. Even expecting a BB/EB from a semi target is unrealistic even if you do everything right
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This is just cope. In London, your university matters much less than what it is in the States. I messed up my A-levels and lost my offer to oxbridge, ended up at a low semi/basically non target, and managed to get multiple offers spanning from BB/EB to even PE funds (non-diverse candidate.
If you mess something up in the past and aren’t willing to grind and be proactive, then it is fully on you. As soon as I realised I messed up, I smashed the pedal on the gas, whether it was perfecting my CV to practicing online tests again and again. If you’re good enough, and hungry enough, you can make it from a lot of universities which aren’t classified as elite. Saying the entire reason why you didn’t get in is because of your university, is just blaming everything but yourself. The people who are hungry and smart enough will always make it.
That said, you can still make it. Hustle, network (which actually does give you a massive boost even in London even though many say it doesn’t) and find unconventional ways to break in. Good luck and don’t give up.
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I got worse than ABC lol, ABC isn’t even THAT bad. I know people with your A-levels at banks like Evercore/PJT. I’m going to be honest, there’s no minimum grade requirements for most banks (bar places like Moelis). Just don’t put your grades on your CV if you don’t want to, unless they ask for it to be on it.
The main way to do well during recruiting is:
1. Apply early
2. Make sure to ace those psychometrics (then at that point you get past screening and your interview performance matters more than any other thing)
3. Prepare hard technicals/behaviourals
4. Apply everywhere
This is not true. Current Leeds student at an MM for an SA stint — yes, it's not Goldman, but even then I got on to a BB spring (didn't manage to convert it, unfortunately). There are plenty of non-targets at different banks whom I know.
I'm not going to pretend it's easy or that there aren't plenty of otherwise good candidates who lose out because they didn't know about IB back in year 13 when applying, but it's definitely not over for non-targets.
For those non-targets reading: try applying to places like Clearwater, Zeus Capital, Bishopsgate Corp Finance, Initium Corp Finance, GS Verde Corp Finance (South Wales), Rickitt Mitchell, etc etc — there are plenty of places to try out before losing all hope.
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It's less of a prerequisite anyway, depends for each one I suppose
Do any of them sponsor visas?
I don't know, I'm British
You should have thought about this before being born in a non-target country. Europoors ngmi
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I am in the US but I BS'ed my way into a top TMT goup. Changed degrees away from engineering to pick an easier path and got my foot in the door. PE offer now too. Wasn't that hard, and I'm not that impressive of a person. I just worked decently hard and consistently for an extended period of time. Non-target too btw
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I too did a top masters in the US to land my role, which is a much less common path into the industry here. It helped me get in the recruiting pipelines however.
I'm based in the UK. I've worked in NYC and London.
Agree networking is more impactful in the US than the UK.
The UK graduate program is very formula driven. You do a spring, you do a summer, you get a return. Today's classes of interns are either top draw on paper or DEI candidates. So focus your your efforts on smaller boutiques or firms that don't have a HR led approach.
However, I think this site really does focus touch on the graduate entry level. I guess that's because of the main clientelle, but my point is that a career is longer than that.
It also focuses on prestige so people seem to forget that IB entry has many different levels. Doing a year in big 4 corp finance or a grant Thornton is a fine entry point and will allow you to lateral up the field. Sometimes it takes steps to get to the top ranks.
The UK is different, we are much smaller and the mba program doesn't exist. The markets are shit and spaces are tight, which means less graduate entry spaces so higher competition.
When the market picks up and hiring soars, you'll see a similar to 2021 rush for "resources".
Networking is still key, it's networking that opens doors to lateral positions and off cycle roles before they even come up. It allows you to get a foot in the door before potentially better qualified candidates on paper.
I think my position might be useful to hear as it shows a different path completely, but I am from the UK.
First of all, the UK is definitely less meritocratic than the US. Although that is mainly because the US market is just so much bigger and keeps growing. The UK ends up being more competitive (less growth > less new jobs) and therefore more of the roles tend to go to those 'born' into them simply because there are more of those people than there are roles. Unfortunate but not the end of the world.
That being said, I went to a VERY non-target university, I got a first class, went travelling for 3+ years, came back to the UK, became a qualified accountant while jumping through different roles in Finance. Across my career my roles were accounting, middle office, and then front office in asset management and then M&A. Do I work for a top bucket group? No. Do I love what I do and get paid significantly better than the average UK citizen? Yes.
My experience was simply that of growing up in an average area with no peers who were university educated (not my parents and none of my friends’ parents). None of us even knew what IB was until I heard about it in my mid 20's. I always loved economics, politics, finance, and the markets. Had I been born in a different area would that have been picked up by someone who would've helped put me on the right path? Probably. But that is just how the UK works.
I showed up to every job I had, and I just wouldn't stop talking about my goals. I would always want more. I would signal to everyone I met I wanted to do a job with tangible impact. Eventually I was working in a front office team (in asset management) doing an interesting role, but I didn't love it. I felt too far away from the actual deal making. Then one day I got a call, from a colleague I had worked with 10 years ago at a job I had during a summer while at university. They remembered how passionate I was, searched my name on LinkedIn and saw that I had, of course, ended up in Finance. Guess what they needed for their new venture in the UK, an M&A Associate. They knew they wanted someone with drive. They thought of me instantly. The role was essentially created for me because of the attitude I showed 10 years earlier in a job completely unrelated to Finance. I got my break at 30-ish. I not only didn't go to a target school, but I also didn’t do any internships, and I didn't even know what front office was until my mid 20's.
The best thing for you to do is go out into the world and give 110% every day and be clear about what you want. You never know who is listening.
Wut
Recruiting in England does seem to be a bit more difficult than in the US from what it sounds like
Just went Non-target > B4 Audit > Valuation > IB (GS/MS/JPM) top group
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