How to Explain that I Didn't Get Return Offer in Interviews

Plent of kids with offers in hand elsewhere interview for better offers at better firms.. Also they almost always ask (~95%) because it's important regardless of your thoughts. A long winded structured breakdown of why you didn't get an offer in a brief interview would not be what an associate/ VP wants to hear

Soap:

if they're interviewing you and see it on your resume... they'll assume you didn't get an offer which is why you're still looking.

You are correct that they are not going to interview people unless there is some interest, but the key is to get a job, not an interview. That's like saying to someone who has something on their record that would bar them from registering with FINRA (and therefore a job in IB) that they have a shot just because they are getting called in for an interview. Your resume does not answer all questions that will be asked. One important question that is asked after a SA is "did you get a full-time offer?"

You (and I don't mean to just single you out because I know you're trying to be helpful) should be careful about throwing out advice unless you have some sort of first hand knowledge.

Having said that, no one should think that it is impossible. But, don't expect them to already think you don't have an offer and that it will therefore be something that doesn't come up. As mentioned somewhere else, quickly address it, downplay it and move on. You CAN get a FT job without converting a FT offer from SA. I've known several talented people that have done it, although typically they've done so by interviewing "a level down" from the bank at which they spent their Summer.

Relax, you're fine. Persue firms as you would have if you had gotten a return offer. No one will ask "why didn't you get the offer", most people get a return offer and unless you're stinking up the interview, they will assume you did as well. They WILL ask "why didn't you sign with Deloitte?". DO NOT lie, just be intelligent in the way you respond via this two step approach...

1. Address the offer (lack thereof) without calling yourself out: "I feel like it wasn't a good fit because of (culture, opportunities, xyz legitimate reason)". No sob story, cut-and-dry, non-Deloitte bashing, business case. This is not lying or misleading, you're choosing not to share that information with them. Trust me, they and many firms are withholding info from you as they assess you.

2. Re-direct (smoothly and naturally) their focus on your blip in the past by announcing what you WANT to do in the future. "I have experience in XY and want to do Z". Many of your competition will not have 2nd tier consulting experience or ANY at all. You have an advantage, leverage it.

All-in-all: stop focusing your effort in the negative, you can't change that anymore. Focus on the positive and use that to your advantage. In full-time recruiting, firms generally have more available slots than they had for interns. Be humble, be intelligent, you'll do fine.

Good luck, mate.

Sent from mobile

Does anyone else have experience with navigating the issue of no return offer?

I've heard it is common practice--if not routine--for interviewers to ask you whether or not you received a return offer.

Things go wrong quite often in consulting. My biggest take-away from my first 7 months in consulting: Every document you send has to be client ready. Take that extra 15 minutes to read everything over again. It's a golden rule and I wish you didn't learn it the hard way.

If you feel like this is too much stress to handle, I'd suggest that you pursue a career in the startup scene. They value consulting internships and Deloitte S&O is not a bad at all. There is just so much you can do with your Ivy League diploma, I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.

I'm the same age as you, so take my advice as you wish.

I think as long as you finish the internship (i.e. you don't get fired), you'll be fine. If you apply for consulting/other, just say that you are no longer interested in IBD (or wherever you are) based on your summer exposure. If you are still interested in banking, then tell the firms you interview with that (insert qualitative attribute here) didn't really fir with your style. In every scenario (other than getting fired), having the name on your resume will make a strong candidate out of you.

Just my thoughts, More experienced people should definitely chime in as well.

I guess it could be worse, right? At least this is happening now and not junior year.

bump

How did you get an offer as a sophomore SA from a BB? Diversity program?

No, I'm great at interviews and I go to an ivy. All I really needed was to get into the interview room.

Your career in banking is over for the foreseeable future. Consulting is probably a bust as well. Obviously, still go for what you want, just make sure you don't rule out F500 finance roles or similar, because that's probably what you'll end up having to settle for.

...just kidding, I don't really know, I'm younger than you.

why do they not like you?

As cliche as this sounds i'm just really not a good fit for this particular group.

Very easy to play off. Doubt it will even be asked, as Sophomores don't normally get "offers". If it's even asked of you, play it off as wanting to work for a different bank (ideally you're targeting a better desk) or different desk focus area.

You'll be fine, especially since you're a sophomore. There are plenty of ways to play it off if you do get asked, including talking about how you didn't like the culture, you wanted to focus on a different industry/product, you wanted to work for a stronger/more focused/broader (depending on the situation) bank etc.

Can completely relate, I was in your situation last summer when I was in a niche group within a BB and I just couldn't seem to get really close to anyone. I've never had a problem getting along with any type of people, but I just could not click with most of the members in my group. That being said there is still a lot you can do to remedy the situation.

I wouldn't worry much about getting them to "like" you, but do get them to respect you. Are you doing good work? Putting in the appropriate amount of hours? Are you helping out the analyst as much as possible? You have about 4 weeks left, make sure to really focus for the last month and get them to respect you as a decent intern if nothing else.

I would also feel free to ask for advice from anyone you feel even marginally close to. Go to the analyst you've done the most work for and ask him/her a question or two and see if you're doing anything wrong or if you could be doing anything better. Have you had you mid summer review yet, what did they say?

Finish out strong and don't let the lack of fit bother you. You have a blue chip experience on your resume and now you know to focus more on fit for next years recruiting.

If you don't know how to side step it take it off your resume. If you leave it, just make sure you have someone who will be able to provide a glowing reference

How did you get into the interview room then? That's already hard enough as a sophomore.

sounds like you have awful people person skills. That ivy league will only get you so far, only the good ones last. Just being smart won't get you promoted although they will love working you to death before you quit

kind of fucked, specially cause you're already late on the recruiting front/as you know, most FT positions are filled with SA's or SA's from other banks with return offers to leverage. ask your manager for a reference and to introduce you to some of his contacts. and better hit the pavement networking.

Surely not possible to be late for applying for next year? Unless you mean FT positions filled by SAs so it's tough.

My plan was to contact alumni (I go to a target in UK) and go from there. But in terms of options, is it worth applying for SA again or Off-cycle? I know a few in this internship who had done SAs before and been rejected but got offers now. With that said, some banks don't allow final years to apply and for others you'd be at a disadvantage it seems.

What do you want to do that you don't really need a technical background? I feel like in any part of banking, you need to know how to model and have a good grasp on how different choices affect valuation.

That aside, I don't know if all hope is completely lost yet. My info may be outdated, but I recruited for full time in Fall of 2007 and that went until Thanksgiving. In addition to applying through traditional routes, you need to try to network your way into opportunities that aren't as broadly marketed. A good start would be to see if your manager can make some introductions for you.

When you actually get some interviews, you are going to be asked why you didn't get an offer. There are plenty of threads regarding this topic on WSO which give some good advice, but make sure you have this gameplan set beforehand.

Don't listen to kidflash... most on-campus recruiting for FT 2014 (summer start date) has not started yet, at least not yet in the US.

Start networking for both on and off campus recruiting positions.. Go to your school's career services and see when resume drops end and get your stuff out there.

I don't think you can usually intern after graduating either. But anything is possible as I said, person also in my area had a lot more experience and had already graduated. I don't know if his dad was the CEO or anything though, so I don't know how he got it.

Definitely understand applying to less advertised opportunities. Those spots always seem to be more about networking. Will be doing that with alumni and see what happens but I guess cold-calling might be appropriate too. I don't think those look to hear so early though. It's early September and I think most smaller places usually look later but I will be starting from now and see what's up.

My response would probably be one of fit. I did well in my second rotation and worked hard but I wasn't as good as the other intern and I don't think I could do much about that. Obviously wouldn't say all that but as I said, not an area I want to get into so the skills I lacked wouldn't be a problem where I really want to work in.

Though full time recruiting have fewer opps than summer, it's not impossible to land an offer through another round of fall recruiting. When it comes to interviews, you should have a rock solid answer to "did you get an offer". If possible, interview for groups different from the one you summered in, or one where your background is a better fit. e.g. you were in TMT and you had a consumer background. You can say that you wanted to learn something new in TMT but you realized by the end of the summer you were still really interested in consumer and bring up examples from your past.

Also think about whether or not you really want to pursue banking long term. It won't hurt to recruit for other finance positions outside of banking, like PWM, S&T, corp fin, etc.

I definitely understand it's an uphill battle and won't be easy but I'm remaining fairly positive.

Because neither of the rotations was where I really wanted to be in an offer would have only helped as a tool for leverage. I wouldn't have really liked to work FT in either of the places to be perfectly honest. I do want to stress that this isn't me being picky or showing I don't really want to be in the industry. I want to remain a little vague, understandably, but they were rather different from where I wanted to be but that doesn't mean I don't want to work in banking. It's not a niche area, it just was unfortunate how HR sorted it out and some will always lose out on those rather random choices.

You could delay your graduation for another semester (graduate in Fall 2014) and try to score another internship. I had a friend who delayed his graduation for a semester, scored a BB SA, got the return offer, and will start FT in 2014 after traveling for half of the year since he's graduating in a few months. Definitely something to think about.

Not true I would say. I knew people that didnt get return offers, then went for a Masters and were then again interviewed for FT by the place they didnt get in a year ago. If you have a couple of years experience then this wont be an issue at all.

I would say its very individual specific.

Remember that SAs may not get hired for a whole host of reasons. If it was because the group had hiring constraints or a hiring freeze, then it likely won't be an issue. If it was for sub-par performance or because you're an asshole, that's an entirely different story.

Reach out to your contacts to make sure you have people helping you get interviews for FT roles. I would also speak to people at other banks (intern friends, or any bankers you know) to learn more about the culture at other banks (and other things you can't get from the website) so you can form really strong answers about why xyz bank is better for you than the bank you interned at.

Along with the above - If you don't apply for Lev Fin FT, just say that the internship was great experience, you learned a lot, but realized that lev fin was not for you and that this is the most important thing. That you liked the M&A/Advisory side (strategy), or sales side (S&T), investing (PE if within a bank) or whatever.

Do you have any positive connections with anyone you work with? Analysts, Associates etc? They can go to bat for you with their friends/peers etc.

Thanks! Any suggestions on how to explain/spin why i didnt get an offer in interviews?

bump

I'll take a stab at it. You did Lev Fin for a summer, learned a lot, nice people in your group but you didn't like the business much itself, but know that it is critical/useful. You talked to people in other units/teams and found that (probably what you are applying for) more interesting. Maybe frame it to make them think you didn't take it an offer if it was given - for professional reasons. No need to lie, just hint at it.

Life and career is a long game right? If you know something doesn't fit (ie. you weren't interested in that side of the business), then why work 100 hours a week for the first few years of your life knowing that when there are so many other great opportunities (like whatever you are applying for) out there?

That's a stab in the dark - maybe other people can opine with suggestions.

Good Luck

Step 1 should be to do all you can to get the offer. Talk to analysts and associates, ask what you can do to improve, make a conscious effort to do your best and to get on good terms with everyone. It doesn't matter if you already have zero intention to return; having that offer in hand will be huge.

Step 2 would then be to network (but use your discretion here) - there's only about another month or so until accelerated interviews start (do they still do those?).

In addition to everyone's comments, make sure that you can answer the basic questions that someone would ask a Lev Fin analyst. I think the most important thing is to show were qualified to be given an offer, but another factor beyond your control determined whether you received an offer.

I've been through this - were there other interns on your desk who did receive offers? If so its slightly trickier but I was able to turn a no offer situation (granted was in 2008 so market slightly different) into a full time BB capital markets role. I think the key is to say something believable / honest without being too honest - and keep the focus on your skills and how you would do the job you're interviewing well. You can always say that you learned a lot in lev fin over the summer but realized halfway through the summer that it wasn't for you full time so have been networking towards field X since then - and then go on to show the skills you learned in LevFin.

Don't lie. Don't spend a ton of time talking about it. Just say it wasn't a good fit and talk about why you think you'd be a good fit at their firm.

Do u go to any ivy? What's ur gpa?

Given that your performance was adequate, you shouldn't hesitate to ask some of the FT guys for references to other shops. The more senior the better. I'd leverage this as much as possible

Pizz I have a 3.85 and I'm at a semi-target school (USC/BC/Nova). What do you think?

I was in a similar situation after my junior summer. Feel free to PM.

You got good experience so an offer from BB, MM or Boutique is all up to you now.

There's definitely no reason to go into "panic mode". You are still in a good spot to land something for FT next year, just focus on going through the recruiting cycle again and don't let that inconvenience get to you.

If you have bankers that are able to provide good references for you, then you don't have to worry. People know banks are holding back due to markets.

Have you tried asking some of the bankers you worked with to introduce you to their friends at other banks? Make sure you stay in contact with them.

As for targeting which banks, you should still be able to get BB or top boutique assuming you put in the effort and interview well. You could apply to MMs as well just in case as a safety.

Kanon is absolutely spot on. I did an internship ending Q3 2008 - noone has made a fuss about me not getting a return offer. What I would say though, is firstly to ask people for help while your relationship is still 'fresh', and secondly, forget about emails - speak to people on the phone, and you'll get much better rapport. It's easy for people to forget how important/pressing this kinda thing is when you're just a line in a very full inbox...

• I've asked for introductions to other banks, but I haven't gotten a clear response on this. At the rate at which the ex-firm is performing, I think that the bankers there might be needing those contacts for themselves in the near future, so they might not have any contacts to spare.

• How would I go about getting interviews at other BBs/boutiques? This is the pt. that worries me. As I said, BB NYs don't do OCR at my school. MS/JPM/GS are not doing FT recruiting, so that cuts out 3 banks already. There aren't many alumni on Wall St. here, so Idk how to go about getting in touch with other BBs and boutiques.

I'm worried that banks might be freezing hiring this recruitment cycle, which will leave me out in the cold.

Thoughts?

If your contacts are Associate and above, there shouldn't be a problem where they are hesitant about forwarding your resume over to their friends at other firms to say 'here's someone that did good work this summer, take a look at him/her' or at least introduce you to them so you can set something up. If they were Analysts, then maybe I can see there being a conflict of interest.

Try to ask VP (or at least Associate) and above. And since your school doesn't do OCR - take advantage of you still being in NYC and start emailing people and setting up coffee meets or early interviews. Can easily look up names from linkedin and do cold emails too if you can't get a direct contact. You need to make use of the rest of August to circulate your name around to diff WS banks - since your school isn't a target.

If you have BB NYC on your resume, people will look at your resume. Also, somewhere in your resume - mention you got good reviews.

**Reality is definitely right though - you need to do this sooner rather than later, and best in person or on the phone. It's too easy to be lost among the dozen other prospective hires' emails asking for help.

Like Kanon said...you won't be competing for the same jobs as the people you will be most likely asking.

Apply for more internships and try to get the FT role (i.e. continue from the internship). Also, because you were at the BB already, if you did well (but were marginally off getting an offer), sometimes they can offer you another internship placement esp for S&T. Its always worth asking and it has happened to a couple of my friends before. Good luck! :)

What you just told us is entirely reasonable, and if coding wasn't in your job description you can't be blamed. If you were in a situation where you would have to explain to any potential employer what happened, everything you just said would be fully sufficient.

just send it to them no one cares

Anaconda:

And for what it's worth, this internship was different in the sense that interns don't simply get extended an offer at the end of the summer; they have to re-interview for the full-time position.

Why don't you tell the HR this one right here.

Maybe even ask the regulator for a feedback beforehand.

Your still in a better position then most people. You have a decent resume, how have the other interns from your BB fared, have you kept in touch with them? Also do you still keep in touch with that MM IB, even if they can't offer you a job, maybe they can point you in the right direction, assuming you did well they can even vouch for you.

Consider taking a ninth semester if that is a financially viable option for you. You will have a very strong resume with two summers of banking experience, and if you come back to campus and take one or two classes (minimum number of credits to maintain registration status and access to OCR), you will crush recruiting and also have the easiest time of your life as a super-senior at school.

Logistically it might seem very tough, but typically if you're below 12 credits your school only makes you pay on a per-credit basis. If you enroll in just one class, you're still a student and can list 01/2014 as your graduation date, qualifying you for summer positions again.

ebfxsnqo:

Its also worth mentioning that I didn't enjoy IBD work but still gave a good effort(got positive reviews) and I am looking to recruit for something else for FT. Thanks

Tell them this. Plain and simple

The M&I article on this issue actually has the same spin "did a good job, but wasn't a good fit culturally."

In your case - it's actually true. Just go with it, be honest about it, and leverage it.

no you dummies, the way to spin this is for them to vouch for you having an offer, period. it's called lying, but it's a white lie they are willing to indulge if you didn't impress enough enough to get an offer but enough to not hate you.

Thanks for advice, just wondering if there's any other way to frame it.

It seems like every SA who didn't get a return offer, especially those who had performance issues, would use the same line of IBD not being a good fit or firm/group culture not a good fit.

bump...

EDIT: Forgot to ask, any insight on what I should say when interviewing for IBD positions.

I realize that IBD is not for me but given the crappy economy right now I'll be applying to everything I can.

IMO if you're good enough, you're good enough regardless of fit and all that nonsense. I know some incredibly smart people who have no personality whatsoever and have managed to get offers from their SA.

agree - tell them

I don't know if you should worry too much about explaining that. Maybe if this happened a few years ago, but right now this isn't uncommon and interviewers should understand. Not sure how the others feel...

If the group was not giving offers to anyone then you have nothing to worry about. If you have to explain just say that the company wasn't hiring.

Agree with the above. Everyone gets that a lot of companies aren't hiring anyone right now, so if you explain that it was not due to your performance and that you would be happy to provide multiple references from that job, it shouldn't be any problem whatsoever.

probably go with your first instinct and lie but say that you turned down at least three offers so they know you're dedicated to them

how about starting with the truth with your prospective employers

Lie

Yeah, don't start out a working relationship with your potential boss on lie. Times are hard, and they know others are on hiring freezes. Congrats on internship though

yeah, the market is awful.

what's your height / weight / overall level of attractiveness?

i think MS has a winter program, maybe you can give it a second try? and do u best to land a full time there after the internship?

I'm taking it straight to the face right now and just getting crushed... I felt pretty good in August with the amount of contacts that I had landed through networking and w/ a good background (triple major, 3.7+ GPA, and PE internship), but right now it's all-out-warfare and I'm getting smoked.

Some of my referrals just fell of the face of the earth once their OCR started, 2 said straight out during my 1st rounds prior to interviewing: thanks, but no thanks (we have 1-2 slots open after 100% acceptance on SA's and were're holding them for OCR), I fucked up 1 interview, and the rest I'm waiting for the next superday if they have one.. so to sum it up its miserable right now

EDIT: I need group therapy to heal my ego

been there done that welcome to the club

has anyone considered the take time off and look for summer internships again route until the markets get unfucked

I have a few shots left... and assuming I don't self-destruct from repeated failure, I'll be going the MSF route as well most likely.

I know it sounds obvious, but tell them the truth. You were good enough to get the offer, but you didn't want equities research as a career.

Nothing bad about that.

Yes, most big banks load their FT class heavily with SAs. Nothing you can do about it.

Start networking now.

So I'm basically screwed. Wow

So much for my dreams of working in IB. :(

Throws cold water on myself*

I'm back in the game, I guess the rest of summer I'm gonna be calling 100 people and go back to my excel spreadsheet of contacts. :(

Any advice? Who else got screwed?

Don't have an "I got screwed" attitude about it. No one is owed an offer. I know non-targets who ended up at BB banks FT this year who didn't have SA positions at those banks, so talk to everyone you can and something will work out.

Be happy they told you now and not a month from now. I'm sure there groups all over who have space but have an intern who they know isn't getting an offer. Cast the net.