Brutal recruiting reality for Harvard's class of 2009

Wow. I knew that the class of 2009 faced a tough job market but didn't know it was this bad, even for harvard undergrads. The percentage of graduating seniors who entered finance or consulting was 47% in 2007; just two years later it was only 20%. For finance alone, the number dropped from 23 to 11.5%. Consequently the number of harvard seniors applying to graduate schools and teach for america, spiked considerably.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2009/6/1/survey…

 

"the number of students intending to work who already have jobs lined up fell from 66 percent last year to 59 percent"

no way is that brutal.

========================================= We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria
 

jjc, also, you need to take into account that more students at harvard probably chose not to go into finance, especially with all the bad press it was receiving.

KICKIN ASS AND TAKING NAMES
 

Listen, not getting into finance (if thats what you are trying to do) from Harvard or any other top school is like losing money with inside info and front running. Im sorry, but common. If a state school kid can break in then there is zero excuse for someone from Harvard not getting in.

All they gotta do is dunk the ball and they fuck that up, tisk tisk.

 
AnthonyD1982:
Listen, not getting into finance (if thats what you are trying to do) from Harvard or any other top school is like losing money with inside info and front running. Im sorry, but common. If a state school kid can break in then there is zero excuse for someone from Harvard not getting in.

All they gotta do is dunk the ball and they fuck that up, tisk tisk.

Hilarious to see a commercial banker say this ;)

 

Look, 2009 was a TOUGH year. But I think this goes to show that these Northeastern private schools are a HUGE risk relative to a state school. You might not get hired straight out of school from Ole Miss, but at least you won't be $120K in debt.

As Edmundo has said, it's one thing to be able to work in finance; it's quite another to HAVE to work in finance.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
Look, 2009 was a TOUGH year. But I think this goes to show that these Northeastern private schools are a HUGE risk relative to a state school. You might not get hired straight out of school from Ole Miss, but at least you won't be $120K in debt.

As Edmundo has said, it's one thing to be able to work in finance; it's quite another to HAVE to work in finance.

Going to a good state school like berkeley, michigan, UVA, makes a lot more sense than an overpriced private school like NYU or BU or even the lower-tier ivys. But harvard, yale, princeton, and stanford, are still worth it for the most part.

 
jjc1122:

Going to a good state school like berkeley, michigan, UVA, makes a lot more sense than an overpriced private school like NYU or BU or even the lower-tier ivys. But harvard, yale, princeton, and stanford, are still worth it for the most part.

Well, in most years, yes. In most years, GS does better than Northern Trust, but in a bad year, even if GS might be better managed and a whole lot smarter, Northern Trust outperforms because it's got less debt.

If you have a decent tolerance for risk, H/Y/P/S/W make a lot of sense. But a lot of 18-year-old kids don't have a lot of tolerance for risk. My brother looked at his current income- $7/hour, looked at the difference between Wharton's Accy program and Illinois's Accy program- $35K/year, did the math and calculated it would take him 10 years working full-time at his current pay to pay back all that debt- assuming no interest. He got scared and chose Illinois, knowing that he could go work as a caddy when he graduated and still make ends meet. Student debt isn't debt that you can BK on. It's stuck with you for life; he didn't want to be still paying this down when he was 50.

There's no shame in playing a conservative game and avoiding debt. If it weren't for the conservative people who saved money and avoided debt, we'd be in a depression worse than the 1930s in the wake of the crash.

If you have unlimited money, the choice between Harvard and Michigan would be pretty easy (unless you want to study Engineering or a hard science). Most people don't have unlimited money, though. If you think you'll be graduating into a good year, it makes sense to be going to a top-notch school and have a lot of debt. If you think you'll be graduating into a bad year, it's better to be graduating from a second-tier with no debt. And again- my take is that if you're the kind of person who can get into Princeton, over the course of three years, it doesn't matter whether you graduated from Princeton or you graduated from UVA. Over the course of ten years, it doesn't matter whether you graduated from Princeton or Hudson Community College.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
Look, 2009 was a TOUGH year. But I think this goes to show that these Northeastern private schools are a HUGE risk relative to a state school. You might not get hired straight out of school from Ole Miss, but at least you won't be $120K in debt.

As Edmundo has said, it's one thing to be able to work in finance; it's quite another to HAVE to work in finance.

The Harvard grad might by 120k in debt (assuming his parents didn't pay), but at least he won't have to say he went to Ole Miss for the rest of his life.

 

Outside of wanting to work in finance (or consulting) I think the prestige factor fades. If you want to be in any number of fields it doesn't make sense to pay a shit load to go to a top school. Yes, if you get into Harvard and it is free then of course go, but if you have to get 100K in debt and you want to be an engineer, teacher, F500 corp finance, manager, computer science, etc then go to the best local school with the best package.

As far as being embarrassed to go to 'Ole Miss, if you were in a frat and played sports I think it would be pretty sweet. Not everyone is super driven and focused on what other people think. I think if you start shitting on someone who went to a "lesser" school without knowing their story or anything else it really shows a lot about you as a person.

 
AnthonyD1982:
Outside of wanting to work in finance (or consulting) I think the prestige factor fades. If you want to be in any number of fields it doesn't make sense to pay a shit load to go to a top school. Yes, if you get into Harvard and it is free then of course go, but if you have to get 100K in debt and you want to be an engineer, teacher, F500 corp finance, manager, computer science, etc then go to the best local school with the best package.

As far as being embarrassed to go to 'Ole Miss, if you were in a frat and played sports I think it would be pretty sweet. Not everyone is super driven and focused on what other people think. I think if you start shitting on someone who went to a "lesser" school without knowing their story or anything else it really shows a lot about you as a person.

Ole Miss also has ridiculous chicks. It wouldn't be near my personal top choice, but if you're not trying to go BB/MBB you can party hard for 4 years in nice weather, good sports teams, hot chicks, and cheap bars and still get a pretty good job without killing yourself studying. Not too bad of a deal...

 

Yeah, I really think the college experience is incredibly undervalued on this board. I do realize that this place is all about IB and high finance, but it seams to me that a common desire is to get into banking for the "models and bottles". You don't need a sick job and tons of cash to get tang.

Needless to say, if you are from the deep south you probably dont want to freeze your ass off in Boston. I would imagine Ole Miss or the crimson tide or whatever places well in its sphere of influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Miss#Noteworthy_alumni

3 Miss Americas

Also operates the only legal pot farm !!

Girls of Ole Miss

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=girls+of+ole+miss&aq=f&a…

 
AnthonyD1982:
Yeah, I really think the college experience is incredibly undervalued on this board. I do realize that this place is all about IB and high finance, but it seams to me that a common desire is to get into banking for the "models and bottles".

So true. I think this is a very well done and interesting forum. But the threads after awhile really starts be somewhat repetitive. I am pretty prestige wh0re as the next guy. I am looking at the M7 MBA, etc.

But looking back, I am so thankful I kept my 3.45 gpa and had a blast in college. Made a great amount of lifelong friends. Partied, ate great food, pledge brothers, Hookah, drinking, Central America spring break, many girls, etc. I would never give half of this up for a 3.8. Even if I don't get into HSW. I was a more interesting person and had a lot fun doing it.

This forum seems to made up more and more of over-worked, obsessive sophomores and juniors worrying if their "sacrifice" was worth it. Where's the fun threads talking about travel and girls. There's infinite amount on "prestige of school A vs. B". Work hard and do well, but man you gotta enjoy life sometime. I just took off last weekend and met up with a lot of friends. What a fun weekend of debauchery. Miss the fun times, and recharges the working battery.

----------------------------------------------------------------- Hug It Out
 
Ari_Gold:
AnthonyD1982:
Yeah, I really think the college experience is incredibly undervalued on this board. I do realize that this place is all about IB and high finance, but it seams to me that a common desire is to get into banking for the "models and bottles".

So true. I think this is a very well done and interesting forum. But the threads after awhile really starts be somewhat repetitive. I am pretty prestige wh0re as the next guy. I am looking at the M7 MBA, etc.

But looking back, I am so thankful I kept my 3.45 gpa and had a blast in college. Made a great amount of lifelong friends. Partied, ate great food, pledge brothers, Hookah, drinking, Central America spring break, many girls, etc. I would never give half of this up for a 3.8. Even if I don't get into HSW. I was a more interesting person and had a lot fun doing it.

This forum seems to made up more and more of over-worked, obsessive sophomores and juniors worrying if their "sacrifice" was worth it. Where's the fun threads talking about travel and girls. There's infinite amount on "prestige of school A vs. B". Work hard and do well, but man you gotta enjoy life sometime. I just took off last weekend and met up with a lot of friends. What a fun weekend of debauchery. Miss the fun times, and recharges the working battery.

On the point of partying, and being a more interesting person through that;

Not to be a dick but all of the fratbro "dudebro maaaan college is best time of your life dudebro maaaaaan get laid every nite dude brooo maaaan" I have met have been incredibly boring and would be intellectually challenged by the toast I had this morning. Drinking and partying alot in college does not make you interesting, there are millions of homogenous exchangeable party bitches and "dudebros" out there.

What does make you interesting, which you are correct in is travelling to exotic places and, having a for lack of better expression, fun personality, which I think is what you are trying to say?

 

Going to a top 20 ugrad makes many differences in life. For one, doors open faster for you, even in Texas. Example: tens of thousands of UT'ers clamoring for jobs contrasted to like 250 Ivy Leaguers. Always choose a top-20 ugrad over a non top-20 ugrad. Don't be an idiot.

Everyone hears the stories of the farmboy from Kansas who made it big time, the problem is that the remaining 99% of his pals are still farmboys.

Sure, run the gauntlet, taking risks never hurt anyone, but don't bitch about it later.

 
EnteringRealLife:
Going to a top 20 ugrad makes many differences in life. For one, doors open faster for you, even in Texas. Example: tens of thousands of UT'ers clamoring for jobs contrasted to like 250 Ivy Leaguers. Always choose a top-20 ugrad over a non top-20 ugrad. Don't be an idiot.

Everyone hears the stories of the farmboy from Kansas who made it big time, the problem is that the remaining 99% of his pals are still farmboys.

Sure, run the gauntlet, taking risks never hurt anyone, but don't bitch about it later.

Tens of thousands?? That comment is way off. UT graduates at most 7000-8000 undergrads a year. Not to mention the job market is not bad at all in Texas. Actually,dare I say, it's definitely one if the best job markets in the country

 
EnteringRealLife:
Going to a top 20 ugrad makes many differences in life. For one, doors open faster for you, even in Texas. Example: tens of thousands of UT'ers clamoring for jobs contrasted to like 250 Ivy Leaguers. Always choose a top-20 ugrad over a non top-20 ugrad. Don't be an idiot.

Everyone hears the stories of the farmboy from Kansas who made it big time, the problem is that the remaining 99% of his pals are still farmboys.

Sure, run the gauntlet, taking risks never hurt anyone, but don't bitch about it later.

Graduating from UT in Texas will open plenty of doors for you (plus the girls are better looking) and 98% of his pals from Kansas probably don't care about making it big time in finance (and the girls at KU are better looking as well)

 

how many people honestly have that much debt where you absolutely HAVE to get a ridiculously high-paying job like i-banking? average debt at top universities is around 25k, which really isnt that bad...especially if paid over 5-10 years...i go to a top 30 school (non-target) and financial aid packages are pretty generous...nobody i know takes out private loans with ridiculously high interest rates. i imagine at top schools endowments are large enough to give even better financial aid packages. i understand at places like BU, NYU, GWU that isnt the case. but still, i have yet to meet anyone who pays for most or all of their education by themselves

 
highhater:
how many people honestly have that much debt where you absolutely HAVE to get a ridiculously high-paying job like i-banking? average debt at top universities is around 25k, which really isnt that bad...especially if paid over 5-10 years...i go to a top 30 school (non-target) and financial aid packages are pretty generous...nobody i know takes out private loans with ridiculously high interest rates. i imagine at top schools endowments are large enough to give even better financial aid packages. i understand at places like BU, NYU, GWU that isnt the case. but still, i have yet to meet anyone who pays for most or all of their education by themselves

NYU shouldn't be lumped with BU and GW. The later two are middle of the road schools. NYU has a top finance program and is walking distance from the highest paying employers in the country. BU and GW are both second tier schools both nationally and regionally.

 

This thread is going to boil down into a mud slinging match real quick.

There are plenty of fine schools, people make educational decisions for a variety of reasons. Not everyone is a xenophobic racist down south. Who cares if someone went to Harvard or Ole Miss. If you have to be defined by the school you went to then thats sad as shit. Once you get that first job where you went to school will count for a lot less than how you do at that job.

Applications for Teach for America and grad school are up for the 2009 class? Sounds like a lot of people who are afraid to actually work for a living. We shit all over the girl with a ton of debt from NYU, but the logic in this thread basically says she was smart because of the prestige factor.

Outside of banking and consulting prestige matters very little. A doctor is a doctor and an engineer is an engineer. I dont care where you went to school as long as the bridge you build is safe and you cure my illness. I am sure the girl who can't live a normal life because of the NYU debt isn't enjoying the "prestige" she has.

 
Best Response
AnthonyD1982:
This thread is going to boil down into a mud slinging match real quick.

There are plenty of fine schools, people make educational decisions for a variety of reasons. Not everyone is a xenophobic racist down south. Who cares if someone went to Harvard or Ole Miss. If you have to be defined by the school you went to then thats sad as shit. Once you get that first job where you went to school will count for a lot less than how you do at that job.

Applications for Teach for America and grad school are up for the 2009 class? Sounds like a lot of people who are afraid to actually work for a living. We shit all over the girl with a ton of debt from NYU, but the logic in this thread basically says she was smart because of the prestige factor.

Outside of banking and consulting prestige matters very little. A doctor is a doctor and an engineer is an engineer. I dont care where you went to school as long as the bridge you build is safe and you cure my illness. I am sure the girl who can't live a normal life because of the NYU debt isn't enjoying the "prestige" she has.

Banking and this forum in particular is so insular and obsessed with prestige that everyone forgets that they consist of .1% of the population. For the vast majority of people out there, actually getting into a good state school is as much prestige as they could ever hope for. If they can parlay that into a $45k job doing some marketing gig they feel like they hit it big time. People need to realize there is a world outside of H/Y/P and that not all several million people who don't go to an Ivy wake up every day feeling like a piece of shit because they don't have a shot at being a BSD at Blackstone in 6 years.

Before everyone rips me, I like prestige as much as the next guy, but I could imagine what it would be like to not.

 

Who the hell goes to a top target and graduates with THAT much debt? Anyone who went to my school whose fam made ~ less than $80k went to school completely for free (besides perhaps books, which you get work study for). Anybody whose fam make $150k or less doesn't pay full tuition. Now some people's parents are opposed--for whatever reason--to making a contribution towards their children's education, but those are few and far between.

If you get into Harvard--or any other top target--it is a no brainer. I know people at Illinois/Michigan/PennSt. Honors type schools that are kicking themselves because they're graduating with 3.8+s and haven't gotten a single interview outside of some MO/BO stuff.

On the flip side, I have to disagree with Anthony. it is not a cake walk to get into finance from even a top school because while you may have a leg up on people not going to a target school, there are literally dozens of people from your own school that are qualified and no company that I am aware of let's a class get filled up with tons of people from one school even if they very easily could.

 
Jerome Marrow:
Who the hell goes to a top target and graduates with THAT much debt? Anyone who went to my school whose fam made ~ less than $80k went to school completely for free (besides perhaps books, which you get work study for). Anybody whose fam make $150k or less doesn't pay full tuition. Now some people's parents are opposed--for whatever reason--to making a contribution towards their children's education, but those are few and far between.

If you get into Harvard--or any other top target--it is a no brainer. I know people at Illinois/Michigan/PennSt. Honors type schools that are kicking themselves because they're graduating with 3.8+s and haven't gotten a single interview outside of some MO/BO stuff.

On the flip side, I have to disagree with Anthony. it is not a cake walk to get into finance from even a top school because while you may have a leg up on people not going to a target school, there are literally dozens of people from your own school that are qualified and no company that I am aware of let's a class get filled up with tons of people from one school even if they very easily could.

Students going to school who have parents making between 80-150K a year are often the ones that get screwed with the high tuition/debt. For instance, a few of my friends went to schools like Georgetown, Cornell, etc. with half scholarships. The problem is, tuition is 40-50K per year. So you're still staring at 80-100K worth of debt after 4 years. It's tough to go to these "target" schools when 4-year tuition is equal to your parents yearly pretax income. While its true that the people in the middle aren't "paying full tuition", they also aren't going for free. Poor people get need based scholarships and people in the higher income brackets don't really need to worry (rich parents). It's the people in the 80-150K bracket that get fucked.

 

It might not be a cake walk, but when you have everything going for you then it is on you if you don't make it.

I went to SU for free, but never knew that most top schools were so subsidized. Never even applied to Cornell which was right down the road from my house. To this day it saddens me.

 

There is plenty of luck involved in the process, although it is easier if you go to a better school. Look, I can think of plenty examples of people who did everything right and still got relatively shafted and a couple who went to state schools, didn't do everything right, but for one reason or another were fortunate enough to land a great gig. It is a pretty big blanket statement to say stuff like that for people who have graduated since say '08 through to today where luck and/or knowing people means more than anything else.

 

Being that I live am a junior at a non-UT state school doing a B.S. Economics/ BBA Finance, I feel compelled to comment. I don't much intend to leave this state for the next 6 years or so. After this undergrad I am really not looking into BB, seeing as I don't go to UT/Rice. However I feel given that if I keep my GPA at 3.7+, get some good internships in the two coming summers (graduating winter), get some leadership positions in our stronger clubs, and just network, an MM/ Boutique IB FO job is not too far out of reach. MO/BO is acceptable o me also, in the long term I want to go to UT for my MBA (if I crush the GMAT or get a FO IB job I could shoot higher). After that is when I would be looking for BB banking/MBB consulting jobs. I will have $0 in loan money if it all works out well (being that UT is only 26k per year I will be saving to pay for most of that out of pocket). All the while im here in Texas where cost of living is low, job market is strong, and taxes are favorable. I couldn't have asked for a better situation in this economy. From UTs statistics, getting to Wall Street is not that far out of reach in their MBA program (if I would want ridiculous taxes, congestion, and terrible weather).

 
Jerome Marrow:
I know people at Illinois/Michigan/PennSt. Honors type schools that are kicking themselves because they're graduating with 3.8+s and haven't gotten a single interview outside of some MO/BO stuff.

I'm sorry, but if the people you know at Michigan are in Ross and they did not get interviews with 3.8+, then there is something egregiously wrong with their candidate profile on the whole. Even if they're not in Ross, then they must have not been determined to get into finance. With a 3.8 and determination (=doing solid extracurrics, networking, maybe taking a few acc/fin class), they still should have been able to land some interviews.

Ari_Gold:
But looking back, I am so thankful I kept my 3.45 gpa and had a blast in college. Made a great amount of lifelong friends. Partied, ate great food, pledge brothers, Hookah, drinking, Central America spring break, many girls, etc. I would never give half of this up for a 3.8. Even if I don't get into HSW. I was a more interesting person and had a lot fun doing it.

The key is to pump out the 3.8 while doing all those things. Time management, baby.

 

Too many individuals on this forum, and in life, attribute what they are doing to their own personal success, achievement, and ambition. The sad truth is that it is all luck. Every last bit of it. It achievement wasn't luck, then the people with the highest IQ's would be running the world and the people with the lowest IQ's would be poor living off of the government. It doesn't really matter where you go to school or what your GPA is; at the end of the day its who you HAPPEN to meet "at the right place at the right moment". Everyone that does well until they graduate college does well because they have more advantages than the next person. They just live the life that they are meant to live. They get top grades in high school, because they don't have to work and are TOLD to. They go to a great college because they are told they have to, which is fully paid for. And instead of getting a summer job to pay for bills and such, they get to go travel the world, volunteer, and get involved with things that others that don't have the same advantages that they do, get to enjoy.I consider myself a very lucky person, given that I am no smarter than the kid at a local community college, yet I got very lucky with knowing the right things at the right time, and guessing the correct letter to mark on the scantron exactly when I needed to. Look at the greatest achievers in the world, most of them went to a no-name college or dropped the whole college idea all-together. Everyone's path in life is their own individual path, and trying to follow the same, albeit "prestigious" path that most on this board want to follow, is just the herd mentality. You don't have to go to a great school, get into IB at a BB, and go into a hedge fund. Define your own fantastic story, don't let others define it for you.

 

I will wager this has way more to do with the percentage applying to finance and consulting than to the job market or quality of students. I read an article a while back that once an lucrative industry becomes the #1 destination for top MBA grads, it's time to short/look for the next big thing because the bubble has peaked-the article made that argument about banking/finance in the 80's, telecom in the 90's, and Silicon Valley/Internet startups in the 2000's.

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

being middle class sucks. Poor people can only go up, rich people can coast. The middle class gets owned. If anyone should get tax breaks its the middle class, but Washington never does that. They're always boosting fucking medicade, or designing a clever loop-hole for the next Leon Black.

 
EnteringRealLife:
being middle class sucks. Poor people can only go up, rich people can coast. The middle class gets owned. If anyone should get tax breaks its the middle class, but Washington never does that. They're always boosting fucking medicade, or designing a clever loop-hole for the next Leon Black.

Middle-class white and asian guys get totally screwed over during admissions.

 
jjc1122:
EnteringRealLife:
being middle class sucks. Poor people can only go up, rich people can coast. The middle class gets owned. If anyone should get tax breaks its the middle class, but Washington never does that. They're always boosting fucking medicade, or designing a clever loop-hole for the next Leon Black.

Middle-class white and asian guys get totally screwed over during admissions.

Agreed. Being middle class sucks.

 

What happened to this thread. We went from talking about the hot Mississippi ass to bitching about being middle class? Only in America. Yeah, it sucks being monkey in the middle, but don't think people should be crying about going to college. It really isn't hard to make 60-70-80K a couple years out in a corp finance role.

Yes, it isn't "ballin" like all the wanna be bankers on here brag about, but you show me someone who cannot live a nice life on 80K and ill show you someone I am just about to punch in the face. We need to come back to planet earth and start realizing life isn't about the bank roll. Your not going to be any happier with a Rolex on your wrist and a 7 series.

 
AnthonyD1982:
What happened to this thread. We went from talking about the hot Mississippi ass to bitching about being middle class? Only in America. Yeah, it sucks being monkey in the middle, but don't think people should be crying about going to college. It really isn't hard to make 60-70-80K a couple years out in a corp finance role.

Yes, it isn't "ballin" like all the wanna be bankers on here brag about, but you show me someone who cannot live a nice life on 80K and ill show you someone I am just about to punch in the face. We need to come back to planet earth and start realizing life isn't about the bank roll. Your not going to be any happier with a Rolex on your wrist and a 7 series.

*'You're'

I anticipate being pretty happy when I pick up a Rolex this weekend, I mean the new GMT is pretty cool. No interest in a 7 series, though, so no argument there.

 
LeatherPantz1:
AnthonyD1982:
What happened to this thread. We went from talking about the hot Mississippi ass to bitching about being middle class? Only in America. Yeah, it sucks being monkey in the middle, but don't think people should be crying about going to college. It really isn't hard to make 60-70-80K a couple years out in a corp finance role.

Yes, it isn't "ballin" like all the wanna be bankers on here brag about, but you show me someone who cannot live a nice life on 80K and ill show you someone I am just about to punch in the face. We need to come back to planet earth and start realizing life isn't about the bank roll. Your not going to be any happier with a Rolex on your wrist and a 7 series.

*'You're'

I anticipate being pretty happy when I pick up a Rolex this weekend, I mean the new GMT is pretty cool. No interest in a 7 series, though, so no argument there.

Yes, I understand that when you are shortening "You Are" you spell it with an apostrophe as in You're. I was typing on an IPAD and just went with it.

This goes to everyone on this forum. Correcting people in public for minor mistakes does not make you look or seem smart, it makes you look like a douche bag. If you actually gave a shit then send the person an email or take them a side, there is a polite and professional way to do things.
e Yes, buying things makes you happy. It is also well studied in psychology and finance the law of diminishing marginal utility. Things make you happy, but at a declining rate. My point is there is a lot more to life than just pissing away money. I don't expect idiots to know this, but educated people (people who are smart enough to get a 4 year degree, i.e. us) should know better. Go buy the nice stuff, it is fun, but after a while it will lose it's luster.

To the person associating a college life with being a frat brahhhh, get real. No one is saying that you should kill brain cells and have a 3.2, but do realize that knowing how to associate with people and have fun is something you can't teach. Welcome to the world of finance where being smart and knowing physics is not your (notice it isn't YOU ARE so no you're) golden ticket. No one wants to talk about some math proof you have been working on at the bar. You could be Albert Einstein, but you're ( you are ) not going to get hired if no one wants to be around you all day. Fact.

When I said 60-70-80K I did not mean in NYC. Should of said that. In NYC those are barely livable. Most F500 places have their HQ's outside of major cities so you should be fine. Working for Dell, making 80K, is a nice life. Yes, kids and a mortgage stretch this, but if your wife works and you marry someone similar to you then your total income should double. This is a general statement. Some can do it on less, more, whatever.

 
LeatherPantz1:
AnthonyD1982:
What happened to this thread. We went from talking about the hot Mississippi ass to bitching about being middle class? Only in America. Yeah, it sucks being monkey in the middle, but don't think people should be crying about going to college. It really isn't hard to make 60-70-80K a couple years out in a corp finance role.

Yes, it isn't "ballin" like all the wanna be bankers on here brag about, but you show me someone who cannot live a nice life on 80K and ill show you someone I am just about to punch in the face. We need to come back to planet earth and start realizing life isn't about the bank roll. Your not going to be any happier with a Rolex on your wrist and a 7 series.

*'You're'

I anticipate being pretty happy when I pick up a Rolex this weekend, I mean the new GMT is pretty cool. No interest in a 7 series, though, so no argument there.

Dude, you went to NYU.

 
AnthonyD1982:
What happened to this thread. We went from talking about the hot Mississippi ass to bitching about being middle class? Only in America. Yeah, it sucks being monkey in the middle, but don't think people should be crying about going to college. It really isn't hard to make 60-70-80K a couple years out in a corp finance role.

Yes, it isn't "ballin" like all the wanna be bankers on here brag about, but you show me someone who cannot live a nice life on 80K and ill show you someone I am just about to punch in the face. We need to come back to planet earth and start realizing life isn't about the bank roll. Your not going to be any happier with a Rolex on your wrist and a 7 series.

Yeah, but renting a car every weekend to get out of this god-forsaken city costs $10K/year after tax. $80K in NYC means you're really bringing home closer to $50K/year after tax, $10K is going out the window for getting out of town on the weekends, $18K is going to rent, $12K is going for food, and $5K is going to drink your sorrows away. So you have $5K/year left to save for retirement.

$80K in any DRIVEABLE city where a nice two-bedroom costs less than $1500/month to rent? Sure, I'd punch them too. $80K/year in NYC, however, doesn't go as far as you think it does.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
AnthonyD1982:
What happened to this thread. We went from talking about the hot Mississippi ass to bitching about being middle class? Only in America. Yeah, it sucks being monkey in the middle, but don't think people should be crying about going to college. It really isn't hard to make 60-70-80K a couple years out in a corp finance role.

Yes, it isn't "ballin" like all the wanna be bankers on here brag about, but you show me someone who cannot live a nice life on 80K and ill show you someone I am just about to punch in the face. We need to come back to planet earth and start realizing life isn't about the bank roll. Your not going to be any happier with a Rolex on your wrist and a 7 series.

Yeah, but renting a car every weekend to get out of this god-forsaken city costs $10K/year after tax. $80K in NYC means you're really bringing home closer to $50K/year after tax, $10K is going out the window for getting out of town on the weekends, $18K is going to rent, $12K is going for food, and $5K is going to drink your sorrows away. So you have $5K/year left to save for retirement.

$80K in any DRIVEABLE city where a nice two-bedroom costs less than $1500/month to rent? Sure, I'd punch them too. $80K/year in NYC, however, doesn't go as far as you think it does.

If you feel the need to leave the city every weekend then you should probably just fuckin move.

 

If prestige doesn't matter that much outside of BB/MBB, how come something like 40 of the last 45 UK prime ministers went to Oxbridge? Also, anyone who says you don't have fun at top targets has never been to a top target, at least in the UK. What if you want to do a PhD? Same thing.

Now outside of government, BB/MBB, academia, add law (same prestige problem) and good teaching positions (Teach First, Teach for America), where does prestige not matter? Perhaps medecine. Definitely McDonalds and telemarketing.

I would have done the same even if that had left me with 100k in debt. I could not have landed my first job from UMich, this is an absolute certainty. OK, maybe some of the non-target guys land jobs in finance through networking, high GPAs, etc. But the beauty of going to a target is that you don't have to focus on that bullshit financial EC stuff and still get interviews.

Now Goldman Sachs received around a thousand entry-level résumés from Oxbridge this year, so not everyone got the job. But being at a non-target just sucks more.

 

We ain't talking about the UK man. The UK judges people based on their accents lol.

Over in the states we have plenty of fine schools outside of the Ivy's. Government positions have jack to do about prestige. Top corporate law does focus on top schools, but if you want to be a lawyer you can go to any number of schools. Medicine is about prestige? Last time I checked having a MD was pretty bad as regardless of which school you went to. Academia? Having a PhD is pretty elite no matter where you are.

I didn't realize Teach for America was top notch. I just thought it was what kids went for who couldn't get normal jobs.

Some of the top schools in this country are not Ivy's. I'm sorry, but if you can't get a job from Ross I don't know what to say.

I always find prestige issues to be hilarious. Do realize that only you give a shit about it. No one is going to give up their seat or get out of your way because you went to XYZ school.

As far as "bullshit" finance EC's some people actually enjoy finance. I took plenty of finance EC's and could call your classes bullshit also. To each their own. Also, I am glad that you think taking 100K in debt is a good decision. May others do not. I can give you the facebook link to the girl with 100K in debt from NYU whose life is miserable.

 
  • I graduated debt-free. All I said is that I would have taken on debt if required.

  • My understanding was that Teach for America was a good program. Teach First certainly is competitive.

  • As for the UK/US difference, while the US is more meritocratic (probably), it only reduces the impact of prestige, but does not eliminate it altogether.

  • When I wrote "Perhaps medecine" it implied that medecine was possibly less focused on undergrad prestige.

  • I disagree on the PhD issue.

  • I know MIT, Caltech > Brown. Prestigious is more encompassing than just HYP. My point was that some jobs are only accessible to graduates of some schools, e.g. the undergrad PE jobs at Wharton.

  • Being treasurer of your college's finance club is NOT finance. It's running a small non-profit organization, and it doesn't mean you would like the day-to-day IB job.

  • People do give a shit. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drop+the+h+bomb If you look at biographies, you often don't even see the major mentioned. "Mr. Smith graduated with an A.B. from Harvard University." If prestige didn't matter, they would just say Mr. Smith is an electrical engineer.

  • Perhaps most importantly, people at targets tend to be heavily networked.

This debate is going nowhere. You did not go to a target, hence you will defend non-targets. I did, so I would like to rationalize my choice. But I hope the above helps clarify my point.

 

Yes, some people give a shit and others do not. I am not defending non prestigious schools (whatever that means) or being anti Harvard. All I am saying spening a ton of money for a name ( outside of banking and consulting ) tends to be a waste of money. If you want to be a high school teacher then spending 100k to go to Princeton is stupid.

Once again, if you read what I wrote you would see I explicitly say that banking and consulting tend to be the two fields that name brand matters. Your experience in the UK does not translate here. If you want to be an engineer many of the top tech schools are not Ivy's. Getting a PhD from a top school also tends to be highly political as compared to other schools. Try getting a PhD at Chicago arguing against efficient markets.

As far as mentioning schools in a bio, how is that an indication people care about prestige?? It is part of a bio just like previous employers and last names. You can do a lot better than that man. The "H" bomb. I believe that is in reference to the most douche bag thing in the world.

I don't know where the college treasurer thing came from, I hope it wasn't an insult directed at me since it was a crappy one. If you are going to try and devalue someones education because they decided to take finance classes rather than classic lit then your a fool. Here in America people are free to take whatever classes they like. Believe it or not, but some of us actually find finance and the theory behind it interesting.

If you can go to Harvard for free then obviously do it, but your blanket statement that it is worth it regardless of the cost is completely irrational and false.

FYI - argument is not over just because you say it is so

 

I don't understand how I offended you. I took a lot of finance classes, too, and I certainly did not study classics.

It seems my point wasn't clear enough, so I am going to repeat it: " if you have to fork out $60k to go to a top school and want to land a job in a competitive field, then do it."

Oftentimes, paying to attend a prestigious school is worth it because it will improve your career prospects, expand your network drastically and positively alter other people's perception of your quality as an individual (most of the time). In some cases, it won't be worth it, e.g. the $100k NYU girl. But if you want to be a banker, consultant, academic, marketing executive, VC analyst, elected official (at least here), lawyer,... my guess is that most of the time it definitely will. My statement is that you underestimate the benefits.

Then again, I imagine that your MSF is not free and that you understand the tradeoff between less tuition and more signalling.

 

I am not offended, simply disagree. This I agree with the above statement, but disagree on the definition of a competitive position and top school. You expanded the school list outside of the Ivy's so I won't split hairs. I do disagree on the academic area. That being said a free or low cost bill to go to a top top school is well worth it, even necessarily for certain industries. Outside of specific fields it doesn't make sense ( NYU Girl ) . Even at the best schools nothing is for sure.

Your last post makes sense and I generally agree with it. Your original post was what I disagreed with them most considering it was rather derogatory.

My MSF is complete and I had a fellowship.

 

It is extremely funny reading all of these comments because I graduated from the University of Colorado at Boulder, did not have a great GPA, and definitely was the definition of Van Wilder. I destroyed my interview at JP Morgan Chase in the IB division and am currently an associate. I guess growing up privileged has its benefits.

 

To a poster above. Yes, I actually can't stand standard typical "frat guys" myself. Never wanted to get involved in it and had horrible impressions coming in college. After meeting the people and finding one that appealed to me was what convinced me.

Some of my best friends are not Greeks and it's more interesting that way. I in no way partied all the time, mostly Friday and Saturdays. But we did plan awesome Spring Break trips to Central America, went Tree zip lining, white water rafting, bars, etc. I was to go a study abroad program but this internship I thought I had fell through so I stayed. I am very driven and all for working hard and getting ahead. But, on the other hand, time is one thing money can't buy. Money highly fungible, but time lost is gone forever. We should also cherish our time and actually enjoy the pleasure money can buy all the while investing smartly for the future.

----------------------------------------------------------------- Hug It Out
 

Dude, my greatest regret was not joining a frat. I know a frat from Syracuse that a couple friends of mine were in that was nothing but a IB pipeline. Being Greek is probably one of the best networks to have.

 

Just had to sign up and comment on this thread... back in University one of the few things I actually learned from school was from a random bigwig speech I attended. Basically, the take was that good school/good grades will help getting your first good job, after that no one could give a shit what your marks/school are; after that it is on you and what you want. To me that means if you work like a Japanese beaver and persevere you might be a job behind the person who had a few more advantages (and probably gave up a lot more fun), but you are still in the race. Paying the heavier tuition to the Ivy’s gets you into their network, and as always... it’s who you know and who you blow, the right network is such a valuable tool. Just getting into one of the top schools means that you either worked your ass off or are in the know, or both. And both are valuable, but my take is that a great work ethic trumps all; because it cannot be replaced by money. Education has become a huge industry, and we are getting fucked every way possible, we are constantly bombarded to seek higher education by people whose jobs and way of life are permitted to exist because they are protected by the structure of education. These are the same group who paid 5k for their MBA and are now trying to sell it for 250k. There are far too many people out there who when forced to think just show piece of paper, these are the people who struggle in the real world because the only thing they learned at school was how to write tests. The real world runs on push and the people who have nothing but a piece of paper will be pushed out of the way.

~If money could talk, it would say "goodbye".
 

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