How much can you really earn in BO and MO

Something to note is that unlike analyst/associate junior positions, at the highest levels of any role, compensation isn't going to be so easy to read across every position. There are also far fewer data points. Personally, I know a pretty senior MD-ish guy in a middle office risk management role at a BB (think CS, UBS, Barcap) who I would estimate is around $1MM/yr, but it's totally anecdotal to look at a data point like that.

While I'm sure @"SSits" wouldn't want to share his own comp for obvious reasons, if I recall, he's pretty high up the food chain in a middle office role like compliance or risk, and he may have more general, overarching insights. (sorry for the mention if I recalled your background incorrectly).

Such a wide range of roles its impossible to put a generic number on it. I know a VP in a trade support role who does well for himself, he sits on the actual desk at a large BB. While someone sitting in a regional office doing some sort of settlement, margin, reconciliation type role will make a lot less.

On an anecdotal basis, I do credit research within the risk management function of a BB. Wouldn't call this mind-numbing work as we do fairly in-depth financial/business analysis type work, but not much client-facing stuff aside from the occasional due diligence and we aren't a revenue generating segment.

Base salary for new joiners is roughly what IB analysts get, but not sure on the bonus (haven't been here long enough, and people here don't share their comp). Comp overall varies significantly office by office as well, and senior guys don't really share their comp details but they seem to do ok. Hours aren't too bad (average is 50 hrs per week), but if we have a live deal going on then this can reach 80 or so.

Exit opps are decent, with the company sponsoring professional qualifications like the CFA and people leaving to AM firms like BlackRock after 2-4yrs, as well as some guys going to small PE firms, or the occasional person lateraling into IBD or GCM. Not sure if this is the "best" area in BO/MO, but I think it's definitely up there. I have no complaints anyway.

@MLE4444 - I haven't been in MO long enough to work out whether my comp is market for my sort of MO role or is more a legacy of my old FO role. Bonus as % of my base salary is about the same in the most recent bonus cycle, but I did relocate from a region with pretty low P&L performance to one that has much fatter profits per head.

Based on what I've been told about typical Wall Street bank's MO by ex-GS/Lehmann/Deutsche people I work with, the MO office role I'm in is a lot more interactive with FO and deal structuring, so my MO team may be getting paid more at my shop because we're adding more value shaping/guiding/occasionally killing deals on a commercial basis ie looking at the business risk, deal structure risk and overall risk/reward merits of the deal. We do late nights and weekends, although fortunately not as much as the FO guys. In contrast, I've been told that typically MO are just processing compliance and other aspects of business that FO has done eg , a MO compliance team who are just looking at regulatory and reputation risk (which we also have here).

tldr version of last paragraph - I don't know how comparable my role is to the typical BB MO role.

I'd be surprised if the typical compliance or finance team member got paid anywhere near what we get, given they are much further away from impacting profit generation in a meaningful way.

As I'm also ex-FO, I think there is a perception in MO that I'm higher value, so that may also impact how much comp they think they have to give me.

I do PMO work in NYC in operations, not sure if that's considered BO and MO (when I think of back office, I think of trade processors up in buffalo, who make less).

For some exact figures: I'm an slightly above average worker who has changed firms once. At 26.5 (4.5 years experience), my total compensation was $100k. At 25 (3.5 years experience), my total comp was only $74.5k though (I switched firms + promotion which got me up to $85k base, year-end I got $10k bonus and another $5k raise).

I'd say my current comp is slightly above average for my age range for NYC ops. If you stay at the same firm, you're probably looking at ~$85k total comp. Also, better banks give much better raises and bonuses (I went from Citi to JPM and it was like night and day).

Most strong workers (but non-super star) who work in NYC can expect to make VP at around 30 (some people never make it, I know one superstar who got it at 25). Comp here will be around $120k, more if you have management responsibilities/have hopped firms. Bonus will be 10-30% generally. Ancedotally, after being a VP for a while and getting a few analysts and associates under you, you're base will get to around $180k or so. Not sure what Directors and above make, but I think there's significant salary acceleration at this point based on the life styles the people live. It is quite hard to make the jump from VP to Director though. Hard working people with moderate intelligence make VP right and left, but you need to be somewhat special to make Director. I'd be interested in knowing director salary data if anyone is aware.

Hours are great, I work 9-5 with long lunches and no weekend work. I used to work longer (~630pm or logging in 9pm for a call with asia a few times a week) or come at 8am, but we don't have to deal with Asia or daily reports anymore, which brought things down (plus I'm going to business school so I'm phoning things in at this point)

Also being in the back office, can you guys trade the stock market or are you restricted? With good coin and great working hours, I can't understand whats not to like. You could be managing 3 businesses on the side/ investing/ studying?

I can help out here as I work in the MO (although I hate this term; it really is all BO) of one of GS/MS. So, first off I believe that hours are contingent on group. Everyone from my team leaves by ~6 whereas some other teams regularly stay until 8 or 9. Many of the people take their jobs quite seriously and almost like a FO role, operating with a lot of background stress. One of the rather funny upsides of the job is that you will feel like a genius, as much of the work is done using ridiculously outdated semi-manual processes in Excel/Access, etc, and is quite simple to automate using macros, VBS script and the like. Pay for VP-level employees is in the low six-figures, rarely cracking 200k by my reckoning. I think that EDs are ~200k or perhaps more towards 300k at the high level, and pay for moderately high-rankings MDs probably falls in the mid-300k range. Bonuses are practically nonexistent for all intents and purposes but so is stress on my end. If I may opine, I'd rather have the stress at this stage in my career (and so I am planning on Bschool), but it would be a very nice sort of role for someone who has burned out in the FO.

so there are absolute no bonuses in MO/ BO at BBs?

I currently work in foreign exchange ops in NYC for a large bank. Been there for a little over two years. In regards to comp I started at 60 and recently got bumped up to 65 and now get comp for OT so all-in is around 75k annually. Also eligible for bonuses however due to the OT this no more than 5%. Hours aren't bad though, 45-50 hours typically.

In regards to stock limitations, we have to use a specific set of brokers and need to hold on to stock/options for a minimum of 30 days. There are some exceptions such as etfs and reits. Pretty sure this is standard market practice though

All MO roles aren't created equal. I started off in a somewhat selective (at least at that time) MO role after college, and I'm sure the MDs were making at least $1mn. VPs/Directors were making a couple hundred k, and analysts were making similar to ER/Capital Mkts type roles overall. Compensation might have changed since then though.

@unclepanda: I'm associate/assistant vice president, I've had 2 promotions since Citi made a bullshit title between analyst and assistant vice president called "officer". PMO is project management work. I've worked on metrics, global strategy, offshoring, onshoring, changing target operating models, onboarding new businesses, operational efficiency, dashboards, etc...job responsibility wise: I do scoping, create the business requirements documents, process flows, project plans, data analysis, tactical reports, master specs, status updates, talk to the various stake holders (front office, operations line people, technology, compliance, etc) globally, make test scripts, create new reports and risk rating models, manage consultants/temps who run reports I've created, etc

I think the above was why I was able to get into a top school - I was able to talk about a lot of responsibility and leadership. I was also offered some interviews at tier-3 consulting firms (e.g. Kurt Salmon) for high salary, which I denied. If you're just reconciling trades for 4-5 years, things become harder,

MO and BO are a bit archiac. It used to be MO would confirm the trades, and BO would reconcile and execute. Then the term MO started being used for Risk. Then the reconciling and execution stuff was either automated or outsourced, so most people in ops weren't doing that anymore. The terms don't mean much anymore, and everyone has different definition.Only important difference is FO and the rest.

The whole firm is under the same stock rules: No options, certain stocks are restricted (you ask for permission to trade a stock, and they'll either confirm or deny, you don't get a reason why), 30 day holding period. Some people have more severe rules, and the rules vary by firm (when I interned at BlackRock it was 2 months holding period, but you could trade options...if you held them 2 months).

@fixedfaileddelivered: Back office was MUCH less professionalized in the 90's and beforehand...used to be a brainless job that didn't require college. This has changed drastically in the past decade or so, especially post-financial crisis. Most of my younger colleagues are from schools like Cornell.. That said, I don't think BO generally gets to $200k by 30 (very rare), but the MD's tend to make more than $400k. Most people reach MD mid-40's. I've heard around $ 1million all in, but not confirmed. It is hard to make MD though, so be prepared to impress people and office politics successfully for a decade+.

@BmoreNerd Definitely agree here. I think part of the reason my hours are so great, is that I automated a lot of manual thing, making it 10x faster. I can accomplish twice as much as previous people in half the time. Also, ya its pretty hilarious hearing people get stressed and complain about their hours when they are working under 50 hours a weeks. Some people have no perspective or stress management skills, but, it makes things easier for you.

One thing I should tell people is - comp is pretty much set at a very high level. Don't get in a group that works long hours, as you won't ever be compensated for it. I work an hour or two less per day in my current job, and get better reviews and much higher pay than my previous job.

I think you're undershooting the salary at VP level though, I know an associate who is at $120k (at Citi! which under pays). If you can perform and are more the cannon fodder, it can be pretty lucrative.

@Corpfinhopeful: Depends on the bank and bucket. the buckets go:

1: top 10% 2: Top 30% 3%: Everyone who doesn't suck (top 70-90%) 4: You're about to get fired unless you start doing better. 5: You're getting fired.

Citi gave me a 2% bonus when I was rated a 2. JPM gave me a 12% bonus...and I hadn't even been there for the full year.

can we expand this a bit and have some salaries for MO/BO at PE and HF? I met an MO MD at a >50b PE shop he seems to be doing pretty well, just wondering how much they make.

I intern at a BB in fixed-income BO. Everyone here is on very good money (even entry-level/grad scheme) and the hours are good, and most importantly, predictable.

However, it is stagnant. There is very little upward movement, or sideways for that matter.

I have been working as a MO analyst in a HF in Texas for almost 2 years. The 3rd year pay is 65K + 10k guaranteed bonus. I got a MSF degree + CFA level III Candidate + 2 years in corporate finance. But I am on H1B. I think the market rate for a person like me should be around 80K-90K.

Also, I don't think MO is a less-stressful job. Actually in the company, you are the person who get yelled most for others mistake. For example, a trader makes a mistake and you don't find out, it's your fault. Or you ask a Prime Broker to do something and he/she confirms in the email but next day, it turns out that he/she fails to do so and it's your fault again.

Wow, they really exploit H1B workers. Aren't H1B workers legally required to be paid equal to non-Visa workers?

From a regional office for BO work I didn't make jack. Under 50k all in. I got promoted back to back to manager with a team but because we were a regional office no one really gave 2 shits about us. Got a raise once, and then barely any bonus because "hard times" for 5 years somehow? Part of the reason i quit was because they just kept saying how they will pay good employees and then never did.

Someone in our group got promoted to VP and i don't think broke 100k. Now, if you were working there before 2007 you were likely making a lot; I'd wager people on my team who worked there for a few years before i even started were making 15k more than me when i quit.

Of course this is also dependent on business units, because some other groups in our office got decent bonuses and raises.

A bunch of people quit and joined other banks for much better salary, leveraging the experience gained in our office for more comp. It was pretty well known comp was low even for our city but again, its BO work in a regional office so no one cared.

Compliance is a good place to be right now. Middle office, 50-60 hours, well paid, safest from layoffs, many open positions. Like any position though, it depends on the specific role. Desk coverage compliance roles pay the highest with everything else lagging behind. You can expect a drastic pay cut and decrease in other opportunities if you are in a compliance role for a wealth management or retail arm.

Estimates for salary based off actual data points:

1st year ~ $65-80k (expect $10-15k lower for retail/WM comp. roles) 2nd year ~$75-85k 3rd year ~$85-110k 4th year ~$100k-130k

These numbers will be $10-15k higher if promoted for that year since this is typically when the major salary increases will occur. Bonuses tend to be 8-20% depending on role, level, company among other factors. Of course, these numbers can be higher or lower based on the factors already mentioned but this offers a general guideline.

HF/PE compliance roles tend to pay within the same range with some offering larger bonuses but lesser salaries.

Came from a MO role at a mid-tier investment bank, working in a trading role at a hedge fund now. MO/BO careers are very stable and you can earn a decent living if you work hard and advance. With that said I worked with guys in their late 30's who were on the same level as me. It's a very routine and easy job once you get the hang of it, but if working 40-45 hours a week and being able to relax at work is important to you, BO/MO beats out FO every time. Just depends what your priorities are. Sure I get paid more now, but I have to work significantly more including weekends.