So what happens if I didnt get a return offer

jonathan-wang3
Rank: Baboon | banana points 129

Situation: Interned freshman summer at small IB, but didnt get return offer, probably because I sucked ass. For junior SA recruiting, if they ask why I didn't return to that bank for sophomore summer, should I say I didnt get a return offer b/c it was my first business internship ever so i made mistakes? Or should I lie and say they weren't interested in hiring an intern for the next summer?

also for background checks, will banks ever contact my old bank and ask about my performance if I don't list them as a reference?

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Comments (79)

Jul 15, 2017

bump

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Jul 16, 2017

bump

Jul 16, 2017

I'd say you wanted to test other industries your sophomore year (assuming you had an internship then), but discovered you really were interested in banking.

Jul 16, 2017

Isn't that technically lying or is that okay?

Jul 16, 2017

Well, would you be lying? Were you stuck on banking from your freshman year? Never wanted to intern anywhere else?

There would be a white lie / exclusion by not mentioning you didn't get a return offer. I'd also just listen to ROK_Marine's new comment.

Jul 16, 2017

Jesus. They don't care about return offer when you are in Freshman. Rejected Return Offers are significant when you are in your Junior year and you haven't secured that final full time offer. They will realize that something's not quite right during your crucial Junior internship. For Freshman and Sophomore rejected offer (I didn't know they even did these offers), admit that you made mistakes but then learned from your mistakes to become a better analyst, etc. Better yet, just say they didn't have any space or capacity for interns because that's a lot of case for most boutiques.

    • 2
Jul 16, 2017

"Better yet, just say they didn't have any space or capacity for interns because that's a lot of case for most boutiques."

I was going to go with this, but I was worried if they called up my bank, they would find out the real reason I didn't return. Maybe I am just overthinking this lol.

Jul 17, 2017

You are seriously overthinking man. Unless you have a criminal record, they only phone the banks to check that you did work there and for how long. Best of luck.

Jul 16, 2017

Yea, you should probably be honest.

Jul 17, 2017

You will probably have trouble getting into any algorithm shops that are worth getting into, on account of not having a phd and not being a math / coding genius. But you could probably still do other buyside stuff. Your background would be good for trying to get a job as an economist or structured finance analyst.

If my office were any closer to the front, I'd be a doorman instead of a receptionist

Jun 4, 2018

I don't have many job ideas since I worked on mostly sales desks and it sounds like you were a quant. The main point to get across is to keep an open mind about where you apply and who you network with. I ended up in a completely unrelated field from S&T and really enjoy it.

Now that I think about it, some big asset managers / insurance companies have investment grade fixed income analysts who do statistical analysis on bond portfolios along with fundamental corporate bond research, and it sounds like your background could be a match for that. Very good pay and probably better hours since you're on the buy side. Look at Prudential, TIAA, metlife, nuveen etc

    • 1
Jul 17, 2017

Great post, thanks for sharing your experience and insight.

Jul 16, 2017

you were a freshman.

Jul 17, 2017

If what you're doing right now isn't working, then you should change something. Change your story, change your resume, change your angle of attack, etc. Just change something. If you saying you didn't get a return offer is the ONLY thing holding you back from getting another job, then just lie. Say you turned it down because you didn't like the culture, or some bullshit or that you got the return offer but want to explore other opportunities.

This reads like your whole life you've never even heard the word 'No' and now that you finally have the world around you is falling apart because you can't fathom someone saying no to you.

make it hard to spot the general by working like a soldier

    • 1
Jul 17, 2017
Skinnayyy:

If what you're doing right now isn't working, then you should change something. Change your story, change your resume, change your angle of attack, etc. Just change something. If you saying you didn't get a return offer is the ONLY thing holding you back from getting another job, then just lie. Say you turned it down because you didn't like the culture, or some bullshit or that you got the return offer but want to explore other opportunities.

This reads like your whole life you've never even heard the word 'No' and now that you finally have the world around you is falling apart because you can't fathom someone saying no to you.

Gonna go ahead and say lying is a bad idea.

Jul 17, 2017

Worst case scenario is he doesn't get the job because he lied, which he wouldn't get anyways based on the information given.

Even without straight up lying just avoiding the answer would be better.

make it hard to spot the general by working like a soldier

Jul 17, 2017

Why didn't you get an offer?

Jul 17, 2017

I would definitely explore Big 4/Boutique Management Consulting since that is a real possibility without a return offer and your story would make even more sense in that context. For FT IBD recruiting, I would cast a wider net beyond BB/EBs. As I'm sure you have, you need to think about it from their perspective: why would a similar level/better firm want to hire you if you could not convert your SA stint? Keep the grind on and I'm sure you will end up fine.

Jul 17, 2017

Why didn't you receive a return offer? What type of feedback did you receive? Do you think the analysts and associates you worked with would give you a favorable recommendation (not just some nonsense HR "recommendation")?

I was in the same situation years ago and found it VERY difficult to spin into any type of acceptable answer, even if you have mitigating circumstances. You will be asked if you received a return offer almost immediately by any interviewer. If you answer truthfully you will be auto dinged by most interviewers, that's just the reality.

I disagree that you should lie: most people in the industry know each other, or have mutual contacts, and they will learn the truth. Search for the Jeff Chiang story if you want to see how that strategy can go off the rails.

Really need more info to give better advice. Personally it worked out very well for my career that I skipped out on IBD, though it sure didn't seem like it at the time.

Jul 16, 2017

you're overthinking it. just mention how you had other things planned your sophomore summer that further reinforced your decision to pursue banking. whether it was another job, summer school, etc...

don't tell them unless they ask.

Jul 17, 2017

Experience always matters more than grades in my experience, but employers might wonder about your potential if you haven't converted an internship and have mediocre academics to back it up.

That said, everyone is feeling the squeeze of hiring freezes and will not judge you for not being hired on that. It wasn't up to you.

It's probably too late to improve your GPA though, so I'm not sure what sort of response you're looking for on that front.

Jul 17, 2017

It's not all about BB or bust - expand your search and apply to all EB / MM banks & network as much as you can. You have solid experience and no headcount is an acceptable reason for not getting an offer. GPA is less relevant once you get to the interview stage - which you can also do through networking.

Jul 17, 2017

There's a 90% chance you should 100% ignore your fucking peers. Unless you're trying to pass off a 1 week internship as solid experience or your dad owns a bank and got you a job delivering coffee, your experience looks good, and high quality experience is superior to grades. Like most kids in university, they are highly insecure about their position in life and are trying to justify everything they've done.

Never take life or career advice from a 21 or 22 year-old.

Jul 17, 2017
Gangster Putin:

Never take life or career advice from a 21 or 22 year-old.

That would make 75% of the WSO forum content irrelevant.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.

    • 1
Best Response
Jul 17, 2017

Happy to report that I landed an offer with a top-tier consulting firm! MBB

    • 3
Jul 17, 2017

Congrats!

Jul 17, 2017

Congrats! Full-time, right?

Also, which region?

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Jul 17, 2017

Hi BD12, any of these discussions helpful:

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  • More suggestions...

Who will rescue this thread? @oceans1989 @Mr. Mellow @tangent style

I hope those threads give you a bit more insight.

Jul 17, 2017

Yeah, get on your network and start talking to banks asap.

Jul 17, 2017

Sure - just be able to talk around it. Maybe you can BS it regarding products (ie if you were on a rates desk that you liked bonds or fx more) or something like that. Talk around it, convincingly and see where it goes. Not the end of the world. Good Luck

I used to do Asia-Pacific PE (kind of like FoF). Now I do something else but happy to try and answer questions on that stuff.

Jul 17, 2017

Yeah talk about why you tried S&T but decided it wasn't the right fit for you, and your banking experience showed you that's much more your style.

Jul 17, 2017

This is easy, you tried SnT and Banking and you prefer latter.

Jul 17, 2017
IvyLeagueVet:

This is easy, you tried SnT and Banking and you prefer latter.

This. Easy story to spin.

Jul 17, 2017

I've bumped into a few kids at top schools who did SA'2011 at BB/EB/top MMs and didn't receive a return offer, and are STILL looking for work. Probably not entirely there fault, just a shitty hiring environment and economy.

But the majority i see end up going through formal OCR for FT and end up at comparable or even better shops. I've also seen people say screw banking and do something else finance related if they didn't receive a return offer.

In the end most find their way, even if it means doing a MSF..

Jul 17, 2017

The kids that do have one summer of banking experience at least have a leg up on those that do not, and they also likely have the credentials as far as school, GPA, etc. as they were able to land a summer offer. I'd guess that most that want it are able to land at other banks, while some find that it isn't a good fit and pursue other options.

Jul 17, 2017

This year coming off a SA without FT offer was tough, at least at my target -- especially S&T. Some did land FT at other top firms, but many had to trade down in terms of role or firm, at least compared to their SA gigs. This year is a crummy year to be looking, some BB SA classes only hired sub 50% in certain divisions ... certainly not a slam dunk, although they do seem to put that image out there until the very end.

In short, you can not get a return offer and still get the same job somewhere else, but it isn't easy. You're still certainly better off than someone who didn't have an SA.

Jul 17, 2017

did any of the banks do substantial FT hiring out of the intern class in s+t? i think citi hired a few

IVY for Life

Jul 17, 2017

Jul 17, 2017

Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

Jul 17, 2017
Bernankey:

Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

That doesn't really seem sleazy to me. If they don't have the spots available they can't give an offer

Jul 17, 2017
Bobb:
Bernankey:

Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

That doesn't really seem sleazy to me. If they don't have the spots available they can't give an offer

If you dont have spots available dont do superdays and provide false hope...they wasted people's time who probably took it very seriously

Jul 17, 2017
Bernankey:
Bobb:
Bernankey:

Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

That doesn't really seem sleazy to me. If they don't have the spots available they can't give an offer

If you dont have spots available dont do superdays and provide false hope...they wasted people's time who probably took it very seriously

I completely agree. MS posted that they were doing OCR for FT, then changed about a week before resume submissions were due to a Resume Drop, which is completely fine. They made it known in advance that they didn't have as many FT needs as they thought, but the thought of them actually coming to campus, selecting a few kids, and then flying us up to NYC just to hedge their SA bets seems repulsive to me.

Jul 17, 2017
Bobb:
Bernankey:

Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

That doesn't really seem sleazy to me. If they don't have the spots available they can't give an offer

This is simply false. I personally know two people that did not work as SA's at Citi but are working there FT.

Jul 17, 2017
SlyGuy:
Bobb:
Bernankey:

Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

That doesn't really seem sleazy to me. If they don't have the spots available they can't give an offer

This is simply false. I personally know two people that did not work as SA's at Citi but are working there FT.

Might be different divisions though. I'm sure some departments did hire FT aside from SA but some divisions or groups may not have. Like it seems absurd to me that literally not one person would be hired across IBD, S&T, corporate banking, etc, for FT who wasn't a summer analyst so I'm sure there was at least one, but there may not have been any formal process for many divisions and they may have hedged their SA classes in several of them.

Jul 17, 2017
SlyGuy:
Bobb:
Bernankey:

Citi was by far the sleaziest of all the banks...

From what I heard, they did FT recruiting as a hedge against any SAs not accepting an offer. In the end, they did superdays for FT recruiting but took no one because all of their SAs accepted their offers..

Gone are the days where you could actually leverage a FT offer from SA to a better bank.

That doesn't really seem sleazy to me. If they don't have the spots available they can't give an offer

This is simply false. I personally know two people that did not work as SA's at Citi but are working there FT.

I'm referring Sales and Trading...

Jul 17, 2017

i also know someone that didn't summer there and got hired FT

IVY for Life

Jul 17, 2017

I can 100% confirm that Citi did hire some people FT for S&T who were not SAs. Not many, but some. Please only post information if you actually know what you are talking about.

Jul 17, 2017

Can anyone confirmif BAML, MS, GS, or CS recruited for any/many FT in S&T who weren't SAs?

  •  Jul 17, 2017

youll have to explain why youre not returning. just say the culture wasn't for you, or if youre going up say u wanted the experience of a bulge

Jul 17, 2017

I also didn't receive an offer, but I interned in S&T. I really wanted to make the transition from Sales to Trading, but they weren't flexible. Due to their desk-specific placements, I didn't get an offer.

I think you should be fine. As long as you have a good reason and have a good resume and experience, i'm sure you'll be fine.

  •  Jul 17, 2017

what were u trying to go to from S&T

Jul 17, 2017

Just make sure to be extremely enthusiastic about the industry. You are going to have to prove that it wasn't a lack of interest that held you back at your last job.

Jul 17, 2017

What do you mean? The way our internship program was structured was that if you were in S&T, you did Sales or trading. So I started as just a Sales intern but got interested in Trading..so i'm trying to go into Trading now.

Jul 17, 2017

I had a freind who interned with JPM IBD as a summer analyst, he did not receive an offer. One of the first questions he was asked in every IBD interview was why he didn't get an offer to return to IBD. He didn't end up receiving a banking offer and now works in the Corporate Treasury of another BB.

Jul 17, 2017

Thank you for your responses. Have any of you gotten fulltime offers after not receiving offers from summer analyst internships (or know any people)? And what did they do to get their jobs?

Jul 17, 2017

I met a few traders who interned at other places, didn't get offers, but still really wanted to do trading and got a job.

It depends. are you still trying to stay in ibanking or capital markets? If so, you'll hopeuflly have agood reason as to why you didn't get an offer. If you are trying to change 'professions', it might not be as difficult because you want to explore other options.

Jul 17, 2017

I think you are pretty much done with the firm. If they don't give you an offer from your SA, why would they give you an offer for FT? That does not make any sense.

Jul 17, 2017

i shudder to think about the possibility of not getting an offer

Jul 17, 2017

Yea I think if you don't get the offer with them after the internship you are done. I know of one person who was called back for a FT superday AFTER finishing the summer internship, but that doesn't make any sense to me. What are they going to learn about you in an 3 hours of interviews that they didn't find out over the course of 10, 80-hour weeks?

NEVER lose your BlackBerry
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Jul 17, 2017

Only thing I can think of is if you don't get an offer in your group b/c either they don't want/need anyone or b/c you didn't perform well enough as an intern. Is it possible, then, that they would bring you back for FT interviews in a different group/area?

"I'm not sure what the four 9's do, but the ace, I think, is pretty high."

Jul 17, 2017
BlueHorseShoe:

Only thing I can think of is if you don't get an offer in your group b/c either they don't want/need anyone or b/c you didn't perform well enough as an intern. Is it possible, then, that they would bring you back for FT interviews in a different group/area?

If you don't get the offer because your group has no headcount, it is possible that you may be called back by another group in the same firm for additional interviews.

If you don't get the offer because you didn't perform well, other groups will not call you back for interview either. Or even if they do, they will soon find out that you are not a good performer, then you are done.

Jul 17, 2017

any info on which firms typically have a lot of their summer interns back? and firms that take a small number back?

Jul 17, 2017

Barclays and MS are pretty good. GS isn't.

Chase Us, Break In
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Jul 17, 2017

Barclays and MS are pretty good. GS isn't.

So why even intern at GS if your chances of getting called backed are so slim? Why not just wait until your senior year and apply?

Jul 17, 2017
bugatti:

Barclays and MS are pretty good. GS isn't.

So why even intern at GS if your chances of getting called backed are so slim? Why not just wait until your senior year and apply?

If you can get their name on your resume it will open MANY doors.

Jul 17, 2017
bugatti:

Barclays and MS are pretty good. GS isn't.

So why even intern at GS if your chances of getting called backed are so slim? Why not just wait until your senior year and apply?

1) Even though your chances of getting an FT offer from your SA job are slim at Goldman relative to other banks, your chances of getting an FT offer at Goldman after being an SA are greater than your chances of getting an FT offer at Goldman without having been an SA.

2) Even if you don't get an offer with Goldman after being an SA, you often stand a good chance of getting an FT offer from another bank.

www.gottamentor.com

Jul 17, 2017

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