To All the People Debating Who Has It Harder

I recently came across a post from a self proclaimed Asian male talking about how all white males have it easier than he does, and that he has to work x2 as hard as he is being constantly compared to against other Asian males who are top performers. AND he doesn't qualify for diversity. I personally don't doubt this is the case, and it is objectively unfair. I acknowledge that. 

And then there was a comment from an individual coming from a virtually unknown 3rd world country that is extremely impoverished, who thinks he qualifies for being a diverse candidate as one of a tens of thousands to attend university from his city (I agree with him wholeheartedly). 

So I wanted to use these two posts to make something clear to everyone on this site; diversity is a box companies will check to show that they care about Corporate Social Responsibility and are progressive, diverse, and open minded. They do not give a flying fuck about who they hire as long as they can tout cultivating a progressive, culturally collaborative environment. They are not looking for actual diversity!  

So fucking accept this, acknowledge your own additional challenges, and move on. How do I say this as a straight white man (spoiler alert, I am a straight white man)? I say this because I face my own set of adversity, one that I cannot talk about in the office ever. I have two chronic illnesses (one is pretty severe, e.g. Epilepsy, M/S) as well as depression, and extreme anxiety. Yet, I will never bring up any of this to my workplace.

In fact, the box on job applications that I am supposed to check only hurts my chances of being hired. I know this because when checking that box I have been immediately dinged for positions I was grossly overqualified for. But wait, many companies have a requirement to hire a percentage of total staff living with a chronic illness or that qualify as disabled? Yes, companies do have these policies, but these mandates are met through the lowest guys on the totem pole (e.g. the cashier or shelf stocker at Walgreens/CVS). These policies hurt you tremendously if you are applying for top positions, as you are a huge liability. Let's say you come on as a VP of Corporate Development, and you approve acquisition of a shitty roll-up. Then when it comes time for your review, you mention on the day the approval was given, you had just been placed on a new medicine, and a side effect was that it impacted your decision making. Its not like the company can fire you without risking serious legal recourse, and now they are in a bad spot. 

As I look to apply to MBA programs, I have been advised not to mention any of my current health issues in my applications. "No one wants a sick and weak person to go through their program" - Recent advice from a Stanford MBA grad who mentors people looking to go through the MBA process. But these are the challenges that make me unique. I have had to jump through additional hurtles since I was six years old, and have accepted that I could die on any given day. But yet it adds no value for the program, and with no disability quota for these elite institutions, they have zero incentive to admit me to their programs. 

I theorize that no one would want me at their company, and promotional opportunities would be far less obtainable had certain elements of my identity become clear for all to see. Any time I make a mistake on a project or a live deal, I never blame it on my health conditions, regardless of how things unfold. There are so many people out there with medical health issues that are severe, that cannot or choose not to disclose them as it could put their career in jeopardy. When it comes time for company-wide layoffs, who is going first, the average healthy employee or the individual with multiple health issues that could potentially affect performance on everything he does.

I say this as a top performer. I have taken full accountability for every single mistake I have ever made since I had my first internship, despite keeping my health issues to myself. I see this as a means of survival, and am not complaining about it. 

I also don't want to use this post as an opportunity to say look how hard I have it, quite the opposite really. Everyone is facing their own set of person challenges, and regardless of race / ethnicity / gender, if you want to succeed bad enough, you will. I know people who had cancer while working in IBD (who went on to beat cancer and have very successful careers). I have spoken with international folks who are alone in the US, with parents who died young and/or were never in the picture. So many people face tremendous challenges, yet still prevail.

Yes, racism is fucked, and yes certain races objectively have it harder recruiting for the most sought after positions or elite academic programs right now. But the world is slow to progress, and indisputable progress is being made. Please show me a statistic saying there are less African Americans or women working in senior positions of high finance now than there were in 2000. I am by no means saying the number is where it ought to be, just trying to speak toward general improvement here. 

It is so frustrating to see all these people debating who has it hardest, when the reality is if you work hard enough and perform well, it will all be water under the bridge. Using your adversity as a crutch for underperforming is such a weak man's mentality, and its so common to see it everywhere now. Own your results. 

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Comments (91)

  • Intern in PropTrad
Sep 16, 2020 - 11:46am

+sb

really well said.

I concur - We are all in the same game, with different levels. Dealing with the same hell, just different

devils. 

Sep 16, 2020 - 12:11pm

I am not really sure what the thesis is for this topic.  I assume that the main point is that everyone has their own unique set of disadvantages and each person who works hard can overcome the obstacles.  While I agree with the main point here, there are factors which are very difficult to overcome.  I agree that most companies do not really give a shit about diversity.  Most companies care about earnings and whoever can contribute to higher sales and earnings at a company will be the one management hires.  With that said, in finance, most senior executives are white and most clients are older white people.   This makes it particularly challenging for a black guy to get hired.  This is the reality on the ground.  The senior executive wants to appease these older clients who probably harbor racist views due to their age and the environment in which they grew up.   The senior executive will likely hire the white guy because he thinks the clients will be most comfortable with him.  Asians also face this form of discrimination but it is probably not as bad as the discrimination faced by black people.   

With that said, the pool of black applicants in finance is kind of small either because they are more interested in other fields such as law or because they assume that getting a job in finance might be difficult.  

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Sep 16, 2020 - 5:51pm

financeabc

I am not really sure what the thesis is for this topic.  I assume that the main point is that everyone has their own unique set of disadvantages and each person who works hard can overcome the obstacles.  While I agree with the main point here, there are factors which are very difficult to overcome.  I agree that most companies do not really give a shit about diversity.  Most companies care about earnings and whoever can contribute to higher sales and earnings at a company will be the one management hires.  With that said, in finance, most senior executives are white and most clients are older white people.   This makes it particularly challenging for a black guy to get hired.  This is the reality on the ground.  The senior executive wants to appease these older clients who probably harbor racist views due to their age and the environment in which they grew up.   The senior executive will likely hire the white guy because he thinks the clients will be most comfortable with him.  Asians also face this form of discrimination but it is probably not as bad as the discrimination faced by black people.   

With that said, the pool of black applicants in finance is kind of small either because they are more interested in other fields such as law or because they assume that getting a job in finance might be difficult.  

I 100% agree with the sentiment you're pointing out. But, I think OP's comment about comparing today's numbers for black leadership/representation or women's to 2000's numbers shows that the progress of diversity initiatives improving who is represented in leadership is slow progress, and it doesn't happen over night that affirmative action or diversity automatically leads to change and should be scrapped today. I think that's what OP is saying.

  • Analyst 2 in Consulting
Sep 16, 2020 - 6:00pm

Billion with a B Nailed it with the first part. I am not against AA by any means, but I think it should be amended. Mainly, I am looking to emphasize that change is occurring, and the successful minorities leading the large got there through perseverance. AA or no AA, these people wouldve succeeded. Yes AA may have helped them, but I have no doubt the top men and women (especially that are minorities) would have gotten there without it. And that people who claim that the reason they arent successful is because AA didn't work in their favor wouldnt have been all that successful in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I think AA is a noble cause. I think that increasing the percentages of QUALIFIED women and minorities is important, but it needs to be done in the right way. 

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Sep 18, 2020 - 4:51pm

I do not agree with your take on the main idea of the topic.   The main point is that everyone has their own set of disadvantages.  All you need to to do is man up, work hard and you will succeed, not matter what the circumstances.  His analogy with depression and anxiety misses the mark here.  You can conceal mental illness but it is pretty difficult to conceal one's skin color

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  • Analyst 2 in Consulting
Sep 16, 2020 - 6:20pm

The key points are that companies will never ever actually seek out diversity unless it is lucrative, mandatory, or they have something to gain from it. Everyone faces a different set of hurdles and if you are attributing your lack of success due to your inability to be lumped in to the AA crowd you were never destined for success. Finally, people with serious chronic illnesses are supposed to be given preferential treatment (comparable to those AA policies), but for any job worth having, it actually works the exact opposite way. At least for diversity applicants there are some people who benefit from the policies in place. 

Controversial
  • Analyst 2 in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 12:22pm

Imagine comparing "anxiety" and "depression" (which everyone seems to have nowadays) to systemic racism. And I say this as a white male as well. OP is a joke 

Sep 16, 2020 - 12:29pm

Clearly you equate "depression" with "feeling sad for a few days" and think the cure is "just man the fuck up". This is why mental illnesses will continue to have a stigma attached to it.

True clinical depression is debilitating and while I haven't personally experienced it, just take a look at some subreddits to hear personal accounts.

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  • Prospect in Other
Sep 16, 2020 - 1:17pm

Completely agree with this point. Anxiety, depression, etc are all things that anyone of any race / ethnicity can have. What is unchangeable the systemic factors of how one looks and therefore how one is perceived by another consciously or subconsciously. Not taking way from others' struggles. But when you account for the fact that everyone can have mental illnesses, the one huge impacting factor of recruiting that is out of your control is being viewed differently as a result of race / ethnicity. Your adversity could have been made much worse if you were black / asian / female. And that's a fact.

  • Analyst 2 in Consulting
Sep 16, 2020 - 1:26pm

1. I said two chronic illnesses coupled with depression and anxiety. So lets assume for a second that I imagined coping with anxiety and depression. Turns out you were right, they both aren't real. I don't wish to divulge which conditions I suffer from I have (they are uncommon, particularly in my field), but I have had multiple near death experiences and know countless people with my conditions that don't hit 30. I've lost track of how many times I've been to the ER. So do I now have your permission to speak to facing adversity? 

2. I never, for a second, compared my health conditions to racism. The only comparison I made is that in both cases discrimination will continue and it is inevitable and unlikely to change in the near future, so it is wise to accept it and move on. Also, I would argue I have lost out on a fair number of opportunities as well due to being honestly naive about sharing certain information. 

3. You missed my primary points entirely. My main point is to think of adversity (in whatever) as another unfair hurdle, and to continue to persevere despite it. Race and ethnicity will never stop a successful person from being successful. Sure, he or she may have to work twice as hard, but discrimination is never the roadblock that stops people permanently in their tracks. 

Sep 18, 2020 - 12:23am

OP, you bring up some important points that definitely are worth discussing, but making a blank statement that "race and ethnicity will never stop a successful person from being successful" shows that you have a very naive/simplistic view of the world. Black people in the ghettos of Baltimore - are they there purely because of class (and not race-related) reasons? So if a math genius who is born in the ghettos doesn't make it to wall street, that's only because of reasons other than race/ethnicity? Systematic racism has roots deeper than you think and the lives of those coming into the world from the ghettos have been determined and mapped out long before they were even born - regardless of how much potential they have to be successful. 

Sep 18, 2020 - 1:12pm

You don´t know what you´re talking about, buddy. I watched the person I love the most crumble into little nothings due to depression. At the lowest point, there was barely anything left of them, no joy, no laughter, no motivation, no hope, nothing. Depression is like a cancer of the mind, and far stronger people than your sorry little ass have been consumed by it.

Sep 16, 2020 - 12:38pm

+sb. Investing all my bananas here. Extremely valuable advice.

Personal experience: I just went through SA recruiting process. I do feel that I am more qualified than other candidates but was not afforded the same opportunities. Because of that, my self-pity compelled me to seek out external validation and tell the world about how hard I've worked for it and how I'm a victim of the system, etc.

I think that's completely normal, it's what the ego does.

Is it in my best long-term interests though? Absolutely not. So I'm trying to be more aware of it.

I've come to the conclusion that there will be winners and losers in every period. 60-80 years ago society favors the white men over women & blacks. You would have given everything to be white. Now we favor the (mostly upper class) women & blacks - suddenly you don't want to be a white dude anymore.

Maybe 10 years from now Asians will have it easy, after the Supreme Court rules against Harvard in the ongoing discrimination case.

The point is: Is it fair? Nah. But can you do anything about it? Also no. Just got to go with the zeitgeist.

Men's biggest flaw is the illusion of control, so we just got to make the best out of the hand we are dealt. Cheers

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Sep 16, 2020 - 1:31pm

vanilla_twilight_options

I've come to the conclusion that there will be winners and losers in every period. 60-80 years ago society favors the white men over women & blacks. You would have given everything to be white. Now we favor the (mostly upper class) women & blacks - suddenly you don't want to be a white dude anymore.

This is Bullshit with a capital B.  Yeah, we had racism against black people 60-80 ago and now it is gone, Yay!

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Sep 16, 2020 - 5:59pm

vanilla_twilight_options

+sb. Investing all my bananas here. Extremely valuable advice.

Personal experience: I just went through SA recruiting process. I do feel that I am more qualified than other candidates but was not afforded the same opportunities. Because of that, my self-pity compelled me to seek out external validation and tell the world about how hard I've worked for it and how I'm a victim of the system, etc.

I think that's completely normal, it's what the ego does.

Is it in my best long-term interests though? Absolutely not. So I'm trying to be more aware of it.

I've come to the conclusion that there will be winners and losers in every period. 60-80 years ago society favors the white men over women & blacks. You would have given everything to be white. Now we favor the (mostly upper class) women & blacks - suddenly you don't want to be a white dude anymore.

Maybe 10 years from now Asians will have it easy, after the Supreme Court rules against Harvard in the ongoing discrimination case.

The point is: Is it fair? Nah. But can you do anything about it? Also no. Just got to go with the zeitgeist.

Men's biggest flaw is the illusion of control, so we just got to make the best out of the hand we are dealt. Cheers

Not sure why I feel this way, but I really see the argument that Asians DON'T have it easy as hard to make. It's no question that Asians work hard but it also seems to be the case that it produces incredible results. Now, with that being said, when it comes to an easy path through top target schools, it may be the case that that is a little harder for the average Asian person, given the typical higher expectations for test scores. But outside of that, there are results that outperform any other category of measurement for success. Numbers of representation in top American schools often times is 4-5x higher than general population. Household income is is about 1.5x national average. Education rates are high. Wealth is pretty good. The one thing that seems to be problematic. The one. Is college admissions, specifically at a handful of schools. Is that really a societal issue? Additionally, statistical measurements aside, the Asian population qualitatively produces better group results through their traditions, which is much better than any other group, and is partially why this exists, which is that they are contextually viewed as "too good". It's a tough one, that I just see very marginal benefit to fighting this fight of college admissions.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Ind
Oct 7, 2020 - 4:19pm

You also have to remember that a majority of the Asians in the US were the top of the top in their respective countries. If a first gen in the US's parent's came here from China in 1980, that means they were a top student out of hundreds of millions and were going to be successful whether in China or here. Comparing the top 3% of whites in the US with 3% of asians in the US is a much more fair comparison. Think of all the hundreds of millions/billions in Asia that aren't doing well.

Sep 17, 2020 - 1:23am

vanilla_twilight_options

+sb. Investing all my bananas here. Extremely valuable advice.

Personal experience: I just went through SA recruiting process. I do feel that I am more qualified than other candidates but was not afforded the same opportunities. Because of that, my self-pity compelled me to seek out external validation and tell the world about how hard I've worked for it and how I'm a victim of the system, etc.

I think that's completely normal, it's what the ego does.

Is it in my best long-term interests though? Absolutely not. So I'm trying to be more aware of it.

I've come to the conclusion that there will be winners and losers in every period. 60-80 years ago society favors the white men over women & blacks. You would have given everything to be white. Now we favor the (mostly upper class) women & blacks - suddenly you don't want to be a white dude anymore.

Maybe 10 years from now Asians will have it easy, after the Supreme Court rules against Harvard in the ongoing discrimination case.

The point is: Is it fair? Nah. But can you do anything about it? Also no. Just got to go with the zeitgeist.

Men's biggest flaw is the illusion of control, so we just got to make the best out of the hand we are dealt. Cheers

What a loser mentality. You can't do anything about it? You can fight. Especially against this evil madness tearing our society apart. 

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.

Sep 17, 2020 - 7:31am

Harvard needs to start emphasizing socioeconomic diversity. They're favoring the international Asian students over domestic ones, and creating race quotas based on that. The international Asian students also bring in a lot more money and are great for KPIs; it's not actually pro-diversity. It's a money game. Yay higher ed!!!

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 12:51pm

You're fortunate to have an illness that you can hide and be able to progress in your career. My disability is incredibly obvious so I can't hide it and constantly get dinged by companies. :(

  • Analyst 2 in Consulting
Sep 16, 2020 - 5:37pm

Using the term Fortunate when we are comparing illnesses is not what I would go with, but if you want advice or help create a throwaway and comment on this and Ill DM you and help if I can. I know how hard it can be, and I will try my best if I can. Depending on the disability, it can be really hard to get top FO positions (IB / MC), but doesnt hurt to try

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 5:46pm

I'm past FO roles because I wouldn't be able to handle the stress and long hours given my health issues. I was actually referring to being repeatedly dinged for MO/BO roles. I just leave the "prospect in IB" tag because that's who I really was before my conditions escalated.

Sep 16, 2020 - 1:02pm

You've basically explained intersectionality. Yes, people can be oppressed in many different ways and sometimes even in multiple ways and I agree with most of what you say. Where I disagree is in your reduction of discussions regarding the struggles of marginalized groups to a suffering Olympics. I think people have a right to call out the ways they're being discriminated in any way they see fit- ultimately,. I think it's good as it makes people think and become more sensitive to other's suffering. 

To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 1:28pm

I might get MS for this. I get that we have to just "accept" that this is the way things are, but I really fucking can't. Maybe this is because I'm younger and more idealistic and less willing to accept the unfair reality of the world. Diversity hiring and AA is truly unjust. All this systemic racism nonsense is bs imo. You mean to tell me that a black guy from a well-to-do family should get an edge over an untouchable from India or a poor Vietnamese immigrant because sYstEmIC RasIcM? The dumbest bull I've ever heard. Can someone give me one legitimate example of a disadvantage URMs face solely because of their skin color and not because of other factors (economic status, no value towards education, stupid personal decisions like trying to steal a taser from a cop etc.)? Any disproportionate representation of races within lucrative fields (heck, any field) is largely based on the the cultural background, upbringing, and the personal decisions of individuals. More whites and Asians in finance? Maybe that's because more of them have been pushed by their parents towards the "path" (Ivy League->???->Goldman Sachs) than any other group. More men in tech? Maybe more of them are interested. If we can look at under representation in lucrative fields and conclude that it's due to systemic racism or discrimination, then I demand that the NBA and NFL hire Chief Diversity Officers because quite frankly, I'm tired of the sYStemIc rACiSm against whites and Asians in pro sports. And if a team hires too many black athletes, then they are clearly racist and we should sue the fck out of them. Load of bs we have in this country now.

Sep 16, 2020 - 1:42pm

Which are you more upset about the discrimination against whites or asians?

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 1:47pm

I'm unhappy with "diversity" initiatives and AA in general. They both cause unfair discrimination against people who are actually the most qualified for a job. I don't care if the person's Asian, white, or purple. It's just not right in principle.

Most Helpful
Sep 16, 2020 - 1:55pm

I'll give a legitimate example. Resumes with ethnic hints, such as minority-sounding names (Lakisha, Jamal, etc.) perform better after they're "whitened." 

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/298795100_Whitened_Resumes_Rac…

https://cos.gatech.edu/facultyres/Diversity_Studies/Bertrand_LakishaJam…

Also, funny you mention the athletic superiority of African Americans. Overall, you have a very uninformed point of view. The NFL is SOLELY because of capability, and it would be great if that were the case for the common job fields as well. But it's not. If you can find me evidence of white people being prevented from joining, even if they have equal capability as someone qualified, I would like to see it. But there's MOUNTAINS of evidence for discrimination against URMs, which is why there's diversity initiative. I can send more research of discrimination, if you like. They were never hard to find, even though you're asking for an example. You never tried to bother looking.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 2:12pm

I want being sarcastic about the NBA/NFL. That was my entire point. The NBA doesn't need a diversity officer and neither does a company. 
Edit: Didn't get to finish comment. Full response down below.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 2:29pm

I tried to reply fully to your comment but WSO was getting buggy. Look, those discrimination studies might be accurate but the current approach to counteract them is not right. If you look at history, nearly every single group, or "race," of people on this planet has been discriminated against, but that soon went away after these people proved themselves through hard work. In other words, many "races" have moved up socioeconomically, especially in America, despite the discrimination they faced. Despite the fact that the Chinese faced extreme racism in America and were barred from entering the workforce in the 19-20th century, they became prominent entrepreneurs and small business owners and eventually sent their kids to the best schools. Despite the fact that the Irish were discriminated against in America with "No Irish Need Apply" signs, they worked hard and moved up to the middle class and effectively removed anti-Irish sentiment from this country. (I don't think anyone today can even tell the difference between an Irish and an Anglo-Saxon.) Despite all the anti-Semitism the Jews faced nearly all of human history, they became the most successful demographic in America. History is marked by racism and discrimination, but as long as that oppression isn't enforced by the state, it's possible to move up. Today, there are no anti-URM hiring practices, like apartheid in South Africa, that are enforced by the state. If an URM is truly qualified, a firm will want to hire them, and any firm that doesn't is shooting itself in the foot. Unfortunately, instead of letting URMs move up themselves-like every other demographic in human history-we are trying to "help" them with AA and the like, which really hurts them in the long term.
AA and diversity hiring are really suboptimal solutions. They unfairly punish qualified "well-represented" people (Asians and whites) and keep us farther and farther away from a society where no one genuinely gives a fck about race, in the same way that no one today gives a fck about the difference between an Irish, an Italian, a Jew, a German, and a Slav.

Sep 16, 2020 - 2:50pm

You're giving me the "they should work harder" argument and giving a lot of misinformation of half truths without context. You know Asians started moving up more... when people became less racist to them, right? (Of course, there's still racism against them but it's much better than the past with yellow peril and stuff. Now we're seen as model minorities.) Asians have been used to tell black people why their struggles aren't real, and you're buying right into it. Most of your argument is just the model minority myth. First off, Asians starting getting a lot more richer in many aspects due to the Immigration Act of 1965. That Act allowed a lot of Asian people to immigrate here, but only those who were highly educated with specialized skills. 81 percent of the growth of the Asian American adult population between 1970 and 2016 owes to immigration. So that gives a big boost in the success of Asians, when you're taking the doctors and scientists that are already at the top. And black people were literally brought here as slaves, not Asians. They have very different histories, and don't get me started on loan and housing discrimination and segregation against black people. The Irish were discriminated against, yes. Also, they weren't seen as white back then when they were treated poorly. Doesn't that say a lot? The fact they were treated like garbage because they weren't perceived as white but black? The Irish were often referred to as "Negroes turned inside out and Negroes as smoked Irish." The Irish also treated black people terribly and alienated themselves from them so they could rise up. The Jewish argument I don't understand nor know enough since I'm mostly referring to the United States. Jewish people were definitely treated poorly, but I don't know of any oppression regarding financial aspects. And perhaps you can argue that AA hurts URMs, but your comment about them just needing to just work harder like others is completely not accurate due to big historical differences. There are no anti-URM hiring practices but it doesn't mean discrimination isn't an issue. It's like saying addiction to cocaine or meth or heroine isn't legal so it's not a problem in the country. 

https://depts.washington.edu/sibl/Publications/Model%20Minority%20Secti…

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/19/524571669/model-mino…

https://thepractice.law.harvard.edu/article/the-model-minority-myth/

https://www.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html

So you know I'm not just spewing whatever.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 3:15pm

First off, we're talking about different things right now. You're now talking about wealth disparities, but I was responding to your earlier comment about names like Jamal being discriminated against. My point was that people used to discriminate against "Irish" and "Jewish" sounding names, but that eventually stopped without a diversity program or social movement in sight. Why is that? It's because 1) employers genuinely stopped giving a fck once these immigrants assimilated and proved they could work and 2) firms that chose to be racist and not hire qualified Jewish, Irish, etc workers were outcompeted by firms that did. Slowly but surely people stopped caring whether someone's last name was Bernstein or O'Leary. The same can happen for black people and other URMs, but race conscious policies like AA is holding that back. Seriously, just how long are we supposed to continue diversity programs for URMs? For a decade? A century? Truth is, they will never end unless people in the year 2145 finally notice that race relations haven't changed one bit with these policies in place. Yes, I agree that blacks and other minorities faced the struggles you mentioned in the past. But unfortunately, you can't change the past. This is why I mentioned other ethic groups in my posts. Black people aren't the only people in America with screwed up histories. The Jews have a screwed up history. The Irish have a history of being fcked by the British that goes back centuries. The untouchables from India (my family and I are in this group) were essentially slaves by birth for millennia, and even they have moved up in the United States (while being put in the "Asian" category for college and job apps, mind you). What happened, happened, and the best we can do now is create a "blank slate," a society with no race conscious policies whatsoever, and let people move up from there.

Sep 16, 2020 - 3:28pm

No, the wealth disparities are relevant because you pointed out a bunch of groups who supposedly worked really hard, beat racism, and became middle class. You brought it up lol. You say, "Why is that?" in regards to them not being discriminated against anymore when I literally just made a lengthy explanation as to why. Do you have any sources to back you up? Because we have differing reasons why they rose up in the end. And yes, perhaps employers did realize they could work, but the bias against black people is still here today. You say firms that chose to be racist were outcompeted. Which ones? Because they could just float by with white people. And even if they were outcompeted, that's not the point. I don't believe it's a whole firm trying to discriminate. Often times, it's subconscious bias when hiring, promoting, etc. by individuals. Hence, why the resume studies ended up the way they did. And again, you can argue that AA hurts them but to tell them it's just them not working hard enough and others were able to "beat" racism is bs. We would continue the programs until URMs are fairly represented and there isn't mountains of evidence showing they're discriminated. 

"Best we can do now is create a "blank state" with no race conscious policies, and let people move up from there."

That would be GREAT but it can't be a blank state if they're still being discriminated against!? I- 

Sep 16, 2020 - 3:55pm

wow really 

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Sep 16, 2020 - 2:24pm

Another unnecessarily long post from a liberal trying to justify why racial discrimination is ok so long that it's against certain groups.  

Look, dear OP, this isn't a debate. You support racial discrimination? You are a racist. End of the story. Your opinion is worthless. 

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.

  • 7
Sep 16, 2020 - 3:45pm

Nah. Stopped reading at ''just accept this''. I will never accept to be racially discriminated against by a bunch of envious, resentful, mentally unstable traitors. 

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.

  • 1
  • Intern in Other
Sep 16, 2020 - 3:08pm

I'm just a bill.
Yes, I'm only a bill.
And I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill.
Well, it's a long, long journey
To the capital city.
It's a long, long wait
While I'm sitting in committee,
But I know I'll be a law someday
At least I hope and pray that I will,
But today I am still just a bill.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 16, 2020 - 4:52pm

Op has never  been called racial slurs, never had to code switch to conform, never had to feel insecure and question whether his ethnicity or foreign sounding name will be the reason he is dinged in an interview because of the lack of representation of his race in c suite, never had to suppress feelings of anger because of the lack of action taken to dismantle discriminatory or racist "jokes", doesn't deal with ignorant stereotypes but wants to say that he acknowledges it and then chimes in with his own issue that is non racial. Sure you have life concerning health issues and I'm glad you have dealt with them to succeed but you're using that as a comparison to a racial issues that YOU can never experience. A counter argument to a racial issue by saying "yeah I know you suffer but pull your socks up " is as flawed as saying don't be homeless to a homeless person. 

Sep 17, 2020 - 8:27am

Bias based on one's ethnicity is real. It becomes less of an issue when you get older . It also helps to hang with people who are not ignorant.

http://www.series65examtutor.com
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 17, 2020 - 5:36pm

Op has never  been called racial slurs, never had to code switch to conform, never had to feel insecure and question whether his ethnicity or foreign sounding name will be the reason he is dinged in an interview because of the lack of representation of his race in c suite, never had to suppress feelings of anger because of the lack of action taken to dismantle discriminatory or racist "jokes", doesn't deal with ignorant stereotypes but wants to say that he acknowledges it and then chimes in with his own issue that is non racial. Sure you have life concerning health issues and I'm glad you have dealt with them to succeed but you're using that as a comparison to a racial issues that YOU can never experience. A counter argument to a racial issue by saying "yeah I know you suffer but pull your socks up " is as flawed as saying don't be homeless to a homeless person. 

If people want to claim behaviorals and social skills are merit in a job, why does that not qualify in how Harvard admits its incoming class? Meaning, maybe there is a 10-15% merit in someone who has had to face the challenges you mentioned but it's implicit and doesn't show in test scores or academics. Logically, the concept of higher academic based measurements such as test scores seems simple enough, but there are other factors to consider and that is less contentious when it best suits the individual.

  • Prospect in Other
Sep 17, 2020 - 11:59pm

Can I ask for some advice. If you disclose a serious medical condition in an application, this might be held against you. If you don't disclose your condition, and get selected, would you not need to disclose it during pre employment health checks. 

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