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Wall Street Oasis » Forums » Monkeying Around
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Muslims on Wall Street, Bridging Two Traditions
 

DrPeterVenkman's picture
DrPeterVenkman
      O
 
 
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 9:55pm
logo-bank-islam2.jpg

This is a fascinating article from the NY Times featuring some of the cultural differences that Muslims face on Wall Street. It talks about the difficulty of working those long hours during Ramadan, the difference between what happens on Wall Street and Islamic Finance, and the general social differences between certain believers of Islam and their colleagues on the Street.

Young Muslims, one of the newest groups to make inroads in American finance, can face steep barriers to entry. Some obstacles are remnants of a less tolerant era. But prominent, too, are the limitations of Islam itself — a faith whose tenets, Muslim workers say, often seem at odds with Wall Street’s sometimes bacchanalian culture. “I’m always the one drinking Diet Coke at happy hour,” Mr. Iqbal said.

So are there any Muslim monkeys or "muppies" (see article) out there on WSO? Has your religion ever affected your relationships with your colleagues or affected your work?

See my WSO blog
  • muslims
  • wall street
  • muslim religion
  • Muslim
  • islam
  • islamic banking
  • Monkeying Around
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Matthias's picture

Correct me if I am wrong but

Matthias
      CO
 
(Orangutan, 298
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 6:34pm

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Islam forbid earning interest and loaning money? Based on that it would seem that true Muslim monkeys would be at odds with their religious beliefs working in banking.

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In reply to Matthias
DrPeterVenkman's picture

Matthias wrote: Correct me if

DrPeterVenkman
      O
 
 
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 6:38pm
Matthias:

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Islam forbid earning interest and loaning money? Based on that it would seem that true Muslim monkeys would be at odds with their religious beliefs working in banking.

See page 2 of the NY Times article.

See my WSO blog

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In reply to Matthias
OMS's picture

Matthias wrote: Correct me if

OMS
      PE
 
 
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 7:13pm
Matthias:

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Islam forbid earning interest and loaning money? Based on that it would seem that true Muslim monkeys would be at odds with their religious beliefs working in banking.

Islam forbids charging of interest and/or receiving interest. A pure advisory firm like Greenhill, Rothschild, Lazard, Harris Williams, Peter J Solomon, qatalyst partners etc don't do financing so there is no physical monetary transaction between your firm and the client that bears interest payments. Even though your work will revolve around interest/inflation and time value of money, the main goal of your job is to efficiently and effectively originate and execute deals, based on pure advice and no financial capital. It is in the grey area for M&A/industry groups at BBs or other full-service banks, since fees (revenues) are based on transaction value and not securities transactions, but I am not educated well enough on that domain so I will go no further.

Now if you were a mortgage banker than that is a different story, since your job is to sell interest bearing securities/packages and is prohibited. Other include asset backed finance, corporate/commercial banking, fixed income derivatives, etc.

But then again, this is western society and there is not a lot of ways to avoid it. For an example a Muslim engineer working at Google in some indirect way makes porn (which is also prohibited) easier to download. Actuaries (permitted) work in life insurance (which is prohibited). Real estate agents (from my knowledge is permitted) work closely with mortgage bankers. Waiter/Waitress trying to pay for school or family serving pork/alcohol at the restaurant he/she works at.I guess it all depends on good faith, no one is perfect.

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Macro Arbitrage's picture

Anyone who believes that

Macro Arbitrage
      HF
 
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 8:18pm

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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In reply to Macro Arbitrage
OMS's picture

Macro Arbitrage wrote: Anyone

OMS
      PE
 
 
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 8:39pm
Macro Arbitrage:

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

this. i've read into Islamic finance quite a bit and i dont see how its not the same concept as interest.

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Amphipathic's picture

There is no TVM in Islam?

Amphipathic
     
 
(Senior Gorilla, 833
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 8:41pm

There is no TVM in Islam?

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In reply to oldmansacks
UFOinsider's picture

oldmansacks wrote: Macro

UFOinsider
      O
 
(Human, 10,466
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 8:52pm
oldmansacks:
Macro Arbitrage:

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

this. i've read into Islamic finance quite a bit and i dont see how its not the same concept as interest.

The interpretation of Sharia will change according to the funding source of the person interpreting it. I'm shooting for more poo, have at it you intellectual flyweights. Ask yourself if you really want to know, and then proceed with caution.

You think youR religion, or lack thereof, exempts you from reality?

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

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In reply to oldmansacks
Macro Arbitrage's picture

oldmansacks wrote: Macro

Macro Arbitrage
      HF
 
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 9:40pm
oldmansacks:
Macro Arbitrage:

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

this. i've read into Islamic finance quite a bit and i dont see how its not the same concept as interest.

Gotta love fairy tales. The banking system in the middle east is a fucking joke.

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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In reply to Macro Arbitrage
UFOinsider's picture

Macro Arbitrage

UFOinsider
      O
 
(Human, 10,466
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 10:11pm
Macro Arbitrage:
oldmansacks:
Macro Arbitrage:

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

this. i've read into Islamic finance quite a bit and i dont see how its not the same concept as interest.

Gotta love fairy tales. The banking system in the middle east is a fucking joke.

BCCI = template for international MENA banking.

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

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Angus Macgyver's picture

Interest is structured

Angus Macgyver
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 754
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 10:24pm

Interest is structured differently under Syariah law, but still works fundamentally the same way. One actual difference, though, is that banks run under Syariah law - you see a lot of these in Muslim countries like Indonesia, of course - must have pretty high "tier 1 capital" ratios. They don't exactly call it that, but that's pretty much what it is.

Turns out that that was a pretty smart move, in the wake of '08.

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XFS's picture

Thank you for the share Op. I

XFS
      IB
 
(Senior Chimp, 21
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 12:54am

Thank you for the share Op. I think the article has failed to point out that working on the street is not any different than working at ABN Amro or Standard Chartered in Pakistan [Two of the many banks there]. Though there are Banks based on Islamic concepts, so far they seem to have been bending the rules.

Interest (riba) is not allowed in Islam, and most loans are made on the basis of PLS (Profit & Loss Sharing). Islamic banking & finance is a growing segment of the global economy and after 9/11 Muslims in the Muslim countries are moving towards more Islamic ways of Banking than the conventional banking.

As for the prayers, it does not take 2 hours to pray, you can be done praying in 5 minutes and it wouldn't stop you from completing that model you are working on. It is desirable to offer Friday afternoon prayers in congregation, and it does not have to be at the mosque, it can be with a group of fellow Muslims. Also, you do not need a dedicated prayer room, you just need a clean tidy place to put your prayer mat on.

It's because there is no central authority in Islam, you will hear many versions of what is allowed and what's not allowed. In the American economy, practically everything is based on interest. Mortgage, insurance, car financing, credit cards. I use credit cards, but never pay interest. I have a rented apartment. I do insurance, because it is the law of the land. I have found that it is easier, generally, to be a Muslim in America than some of the Muslim countries.

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seedy underbelly's picture

Macro is correct. It's

seedy underbelly
      IB
 
(King Kong, 1,113
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 2:10am

Macro is correct. It's virtually interest under a different name.

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junky_munky's picture

In my personal opinion, all

junky_munky
      PE
 
(Baboon, 156
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 3:25am

In my personal opinion, all the Islamic finance structures are in spirit conventional structures, but Shariah compliant only in form (form over substance). They need to be approved by the respective finance institutions' Shariah body, and the approvals can be withheld by some and given by others (meaning, that even for traditional Islamic structures it can be a question of interpretation by different individuals).

At the end of the day, Islamic institutions cannot survive if they don't meet the conventional investment criteria, so there will always be a market for Islamic structures, "experts" in Islamic financing, and for the Shariah departments/ scholars who approve them.

For those of you who are interested, you could Wiki/read about the various structures
– Murabaha and Tawarruq (cost-plus financing)
– Salam (forward sale)
– Wakala (agency)
– Istisna'a (custom manufacturing)
– Ijara (leasing)
– Wakala – Ijara
– Istisna'a - Ijara
– Musharaka (partnership)
– Mudaraba (trust financing)
– Sukuk (certificates)

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najifa's picture

If US was based on Islamic

najifa
      PE
 
(Baboon, 124
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 5:24am

If US was based on Islamic banking their debt / financial crises wouldnt of been as bad.

I work in Saudi Arabia, our ramadan hours are different than regular hours. Saudi banking system is one of the strongest in the middle east due to regulations.

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Gate_Crasher's picture

I thought Judaism and

Gate_Crasher
      IB
 
(Senior Baboon, 187
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 7:55am

I thought Judaism and Christianity forbid interest etc.. Well in case of Judaism its ok to lend money for interest as long as you are a goyim.
I guess it's all bull crap anyway.
At the end it all boils down to money.
And Islamic Banking is a joke. They charge interest and call it something else.

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In reply to XFS
DrPeterVenkman's picture

XFS wrote: Thank you for the

DrPeterVenkman
      O
 
 
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:28am
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See my WSO blog

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Leonidas's picture

Interesting article, OP. I am

Leonidas
     
 
(Senior Baboon, 235
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:29am

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.

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Relinquis's picture

One of my favourite

Relinquis
      RE
 
 
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 11:35am

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

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Relinquis's picture

Not to derail this thread,

Relinquis
      RE
 
 
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 1:04pm

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

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In reply to Relinquis
DrPeterVenkman's picture

Relinquis: Back to the

DrPeterVenkman
      O
 
 
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 7:12pm

See my WSO blog

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In reply to Leonidas
seedy underbelly's picture

Leonidas: Interesting

seedy underbelly
      IB
 
(King Kong, 1,113
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 7:15pm
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ChrisHansen's picture

Islamic banking...I'll give

ChrisHansen
     
 
(Gorilla, 544
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 7:22pm

"I'm the luckiest guy in the world, and when I die I want to come back as me."
-Mark Cuban

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In reply to Leonidas
General Disarray's picture

Leonidas: Interesting

General Disarray
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 795
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 8:45pm
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In reply to General Disarray
OMS's picture

General

OMS
      PE
 
 
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:18pm
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Angus Macgyver's picture

RE: The pork thing - clearly,

Angus Macgyver
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 754
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:54pm
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In reply to Angus Macgyver
Anomanderis's picture

Angus Macgyver: RE: The pork

Anomanderis
      ST
 
(Orangutan, 357
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 9:05am

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

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Leonidas's picture

@seedy underbelly: Mind

Leonidas
     
 
(Senior Baboon, 235
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:00pm

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.

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In reply to Leonidas
UFOinsider's picture

Leonidas: @General

UFOinsider
      O
 
(Human, 10,466
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:08pm

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

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In reply to UFOinsider
Leonidas's picture

UFOinsider: Leonidas: @Gener

Leonidas
     
 
(Senior Baboon, 235
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 2:30pm

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.

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In reply to General Disarray
Cola Coca's picture

General Disarray: Just

Cola Coca
      O
 
(Orangutan, 321
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 2:42pm
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In reply to Leonidas
OMS's picture

Leonidas: UFOinsider: Leoni

OMS
      PE
 
 
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 3:07pm
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In reply to Leonidas
UFOinsider's picture

Leonidas: IMO, Saudi Arabia

UFOinsider
      O
 
(Human, 10,466
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 3:23pm

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

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Cola Coca's picture

Just to be clear, I didn't

Cola Coca
      O
 
(Orangutan, 321
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 3:42pm
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In reply to Cola Coca
Angus Macgyver's picture

Cola Coca: Just to be clear,

Angus Macgyver
      IB
 
(Senior Gorilla, 754
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 8:52pm
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In reply to Cola Coca
Macro Arbitrage's picture

Cola Coca: Just to be clear,

Macro Arbitrage
      HF
 
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 9:35pm

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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Cola Coca's picture

Thanks for the info. Either

Cola Coca
      O
 
(Orangutan, 321
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 9:50pm
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DrPeterVenkman's picture

http://www.wallstreetoasis.co

DrPeterVenkman
      O
 
 
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/19/12 at 6:47pm

See my WSO blog

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konig's picture

*jump starts a dead

konig
      IB
 
(Senior Orangutan, 446
 
Points)
 on 5/9/12 at 6:17pm

Greed is Good.

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Macro Arbitrage's picture

^ tl;dr.

Macro Arbitrage
      HF
 
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 5/9/12 at 8:17pm

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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Forum Topics

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  • Is this firm legit? I recently graduated and am lookin for an IB opp. They seem good? Anyone...
    Gruppo Levey & Co.
  • From Quora, the OP asked the following question: [quote] I'm new to LBOs, just looking into them. I just wanted to ask: do LBO investors look to actually increase the value of the businesses that they acquire, or do they simply look to pay off all of the debt used to finance the...
    Do LBO investors aim to create value or simply pay off debt?
  • So after seeing numerous discussions on what seems to be the horrific cost of living in NYC, I wanted to look into the subject a little further. Obviously, average cost of living data can be found everywhere on the internet (seems like it's on Yahoo! front page every other week). The more...
    The Cost of Living
  • Hey guys, I was wondering if anybody has taken all three of these exams. If so, is there any overlapping in the study material? I would like to take Level 1 of the CFA as well as Level 1 of the CAIA next year but I think the only way to manage all that would be if they both cover some of...
    CFA, CAIA, FRM?
  • So all new users to WSO get 6 free financial modeling lessons, 5 of my best tips for networking and my best tips for interviewing over the first month of being a user. Tonght I got a response from one of my networking tips e-mails from a slightly older gentleman that is a "financial...
    Why is this Quant so Angry and So Out of Touch?
  • Hey guys, I appreciate all critiques. I just finished my undergrad and looking for an entry-level analyst position. Having a little bit of difficulty so I thought maybe a resume review would help me out. Any other suggestions regarding career options fitting my credentials would be great....
    Resume Review
  • I've been looking around online. Can't seem to find anything up to date, or maybe I'm searching the wrong things. Anyways, I took the princetonreview practice test and scored 51Q and 30V with no study at all. So what is the best prep for verbal? I have the Kaplan 800 book, but I...
    GMAT Verbal prep
  • I'm currently doing an internship now and am wondering how to word a task I've been doing for my resume. I look at yearly financial statements of companies and plug them into a spreadsheet on excel (which I made myself). I basically enter the companies' income, tax, expenses etc. to...
    Is this considered 'modelling'?
  • When I was attempting my Level II, I was feeling mighty poor.&nbsp;<br> <br> I had just left my role in finance and I wanted to try my hand at something else that had caught my attention - advertising.&nbsp;<br> <br> Weird, I know.&nbsp;<br> <br>...
    How to Pitch to your Firm to Sponsor Your CFA Program
  • I apologize if you have read my previous post on this several weeks ago, it is just a big concern of mine and that last thread got really carried away and off topic. I would like to hear advice/tips specifically from guys who have had similar experience as me here....
    No-name Boutique M&A IB
  • There are 9 days remaining until the conference (June 29th) and each day we'll be listing off another reason for why you should join us at the conference. <strong>Reason #9:</strong> All attendees will receive a free three month subscription to the <strong><a...
    WSO Conference 2013: Reason #9 To Join Us
  • Does anybody happen to know of some good books for EM trading? Added plus if they discuss how they're different from developed markets with respect to things like products, market participants, role of central bank/government, economic growth models,...
    Good books for EM trading
  • Hi...
    Need Advice - Rising Senior
  • I've got some decisions to make in the next few days and I'd love to hear your thoughts just to see if I've missed any lines of reasoning. I have an offer for a trainee program at one of the major commodities trading houses (Glencore/Traf/etc). 6 months ago this was hands down my...
    Start-up vs Commodities Trading
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<em>Mod note: make sure to see the great comment below by CompBanker</em> I come from a small town where nobody had ever heard of consulting or IB. I was fortunate enough to attend a top target college (a good Ivy) and land a gig in IB at a BB/EB. I'm starting full time this...
Finance Culture - Personalities
<strong>Background</strong> I randomly discovered WSO nearly seven years ago just weeks after I secured a FT MM IB position. The website was extremely nascent at the time with only a few thousand registered users. The majority of the users were college students with only a handful...
How WSO has enhanced my IB/PE career
<em>Mod note: <strong><a href="http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/faq/what-are-the-best-qa-threads-and-interviews-with-top-finance-professionals-on-wso ">Click here</a></strong> to see all of our q&a's and interviews</em><P> I figured I...
Open for Questions - Equities in Dallas
After over one year in the making, the <strong><a href="http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/2013-wso-compensation-report-full">2013 WSO Compensation Report</a></strong> is here! Access to the FULL 108 page 2013 WSO Compensation Report is <strong>100%...
2013 WSO Compensation Report has Arrived
Where do i even start..I learned so much from this forum. The brutally honest opinions, sincere willingness to help, the technical information and random tips on everything has been absolutely crucial for me landing this offer. Coming from a non-target I didnt get that 3rd year SA position at...
Thank you WSO! Got my FT Offer! ADVICE NEEDED
When I first started as a PE analyst, I constantly struggled with judging the amount of time I should spend on reviewing sourced deals. How much time is enough to really get a handle on the company’s revenue streams? How granular do I need my analysis to be on industry threats? With this...
Misguided Efforts: A Cautionary Tale
Fellow Primates, We are looking for 1-2 students on each campus to help WSO in its sales efforts to student clubs/career centers, and overall promotion at your school both online and on the ground. Below is a description of the position and benefits...thanks in advance for your help! <a...
WSO is Looking for Campus Reps For Summer/Fall 2013 (and beyond)
Many of the questions that have come in surround recruiting for front office Wall Street careers from a non-target so we’ll start with some ideas for recruiting, move on to interviewing, preparing for the job and finally long-term career management advice. Before we begin, it has been...
Stand Out as a Non-Target: Recruiting (Part 1 of 4)
Any Asset Management people here who could give me some insights on it, such as the nature of the work, the pay, the hours, the potential for career advancement, ect? I was looking into IB before but I've decided that I would rather pursue a career that's more intellectually...
Asset Management a better choice than Investment Banking?
<img src="//img.pandawhale.com/48721-Sexually-Oblivious-Female-Meme-Ze2w.png" alt="Sexually Oblivious Female Meme - Favorite Position? I would like to be a CEO.">
If you could be the richest person in the world with your dream job only as a public virgin forever would you do it?
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