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Muslims on Wall Street, Bridging Two Traditions
 

DrPeterVenkman's picture
O
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 9:55pm
logo-bank-islam2.jpg

This is a fascinating article from the NY Times featuring some of the cultural differences that Muslims face on Wall Street. It talks about the difficulty of working those long hours during Ramadan, the difference between what happens on Wall Street and Islamic Finance, and the general social differences between certain believers of Islam and their colleagues on the Street.

Young Muslims, one of the newest groups to make inroads in American finance, can face steep barriers to entry. Some obstacles are remnants of a less tolerant era. But prominent, too, are the limitations of Islam itself — a faith whose tenets, Muslim workers say, often seem at odds with Wall Street’s sometimes bacchanalian culture. “I’m always the one drinking Diet Coke at happy hour,” Mr. Iqbal said.

So are there any Muslim monkeys or "muppies" (see article) out there on WSO? Has your religion ever affected your relationships with your colleagues or affected your work?

See my WSO blog
Matthias's picture

Correct me if I am wrong but

CO
(Orangutan, 298
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 6:34pm

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Islam forbid earning interest and loaning money? Based on that it would seem that true Muslim monkeys would be at odds with their religious beliefs working in banking.

In reply to Matthias
DrPeterVenkman's picture

Matthias wrote: Correct me if

O
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 6:38pm
Matthias:

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Islam forbid earning interest and loaning money? Based on that it would seem that true Muslim monkeys would be at odds with their religious beliefs working in banking.

See page 2 of the NY Times article.

See my WSO blog

In reply to Matthias
OMS's picture

Matthias wrote: Correct me if

PE
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 7:13pm
Matthias:

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Islam forbid earning interest and loaning money? Based on that it would seem that true Muslim monkeys would be at odds with their religious beliefs working in banking.

Islam forbids charging of interest and/or receiving interest. A pure advisory firm like Greenhill, Rothschild, Lazard, Harris Williams, Peter J Solomon, qatalyst partners etc don't do financing so there is no physical monetary transaction between your firm and the client that bears interest payments. Even though your work will revolve around interest/inflation and time value of money, the main goal of your job is to efficiently and effectively originate and execute deals, based on pure advice and no financial capital. It is in the grey area for M&A/industry groups at BBs or other full-service banks, since fees (revenues) are based on transaction value and not securities transactions, but I am not educated well enough on that domain so I will go no further.

Now if you were a mortgage banker than that is a different story, since your job is to sell interest bearing securities/packages and is prohibited. Other include asset backed finance, corporate/commercial banking, fixed income derivatives, etc.

But then again, this is western society and there is not a lot of ways to avoid it. For an example a Muslim engineer working at Google in some indirect way makes porn (which is also prohibited) easier to download. Actuaries (permitted) work in life insurance (which is prohibited). Real estate agents (from my knowledge is permitted) work closely with mortgage bankers. Waiter/Waitress trying to pay for school or family serving pork/alcohol at the restaurant he/she works at.I guess it all depends on good faith, no one is perfect.

Macro Arbitrage's picture

Anyone who believes that

HF
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 8:18pm

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

In reply to Macro Arbitrage
OMS's picture

Macro Arbitrage wrote: Anyone

PE
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 8:39pm
Macro Arbitrage:

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

this. i've read into Islamic finance quite a bit and i dont see how its not the same concept as interest.

Amphipathic's picture

There is no TVM in Islam?

 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 8:41pm

There is no TVM in Islam?

In reply to oldmansacks
UFOinsider's picture

oldmansacks wrote: Macro

O
(Human, 10,466
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 8:52pm
oldmansacks:
Macro Arbitrage:

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

this. i've read into Islamic finance quite a bit and i dont see how its not the same concept as interest.

The interpretation of Sharia will change according to the funding source of the person interpreting it. I'm shooting for more poo, have at it you intellectual flyweights. Ask yourself if you really want to know, and then proceed with caution.

You think youR religion, or lack thereof, exempts you from reality?

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

In reply to oldmansacks
Macro Arbitrage's picture

oldmansacks wrote: Macro

HF
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 9:40pm
oldmansacks:
Macro Arbitrage:

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

this. i've read into Islamic finance quite a bit and i dont see how its not the same concept as interest.

Gotta love fairy tales. The banking system in the middle east is a fucking joke.

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

In reply to Macro Arbitrage
UFOinsider's picture

Macro Arbitrage

O
(Human, 10,466
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 10:11pm
Macro Arbitrage:
oldmansacks:
Macro Arbitrage:

Anyone who believes that Sharia financing is any different from charging interest is vastly misinformed.

this. i've read into Islamic finance quite a bit and i dont see how its not the same concept as interest.

Gotta love fairy tales. The banking system in the middle east is a fucking joke.

BCCI = template for international MENA banking.

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

Angus Macgyver's picture

Interest is structured

IB
 
Points)
 on 4/16/12 at 10:24pm

Interest is structured differently under Syariah law, but still works fundamentally the same way. One actual difference, though, is that banks run under Syariah law - you see a lot of these in Muslim countries like Indonesia, of course - must have pretty high "tier 1 capital" ratios. They don't exactly call it that, but that's pretty much what it is.

Turns out that that was a pretty smart move, in the wake of '08.

XFS's picture

Thank you for the share Op. I

IB
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 12:54am

Thank you for the share Op. I think the article has failed to point out that working on the street is not any different than working at ABN Amro or Standard Chartered in Pakistan [Two of the many banks there]. Though there are Banks based on Islamic concepts, so far they seem to have been bending the rules.

Interest (riba) is not allowed in Islam, and most loans are made on the basis of PLS (Profit & Loss Sharing). Islamic banking & finance is a growing segment of the global economy and after 9/11 Muslims in the Muslim countries are moving towards more Islamic ways of Banking than the conventional banking.

As for the prayers, it does not take 2 hours to pray, you can be done praying in 5 minutes and it wouldn't stop you from completing that model you are working on. It is desirable to offer Friday afternoon prayers in congregation, and it does not have to be at the mosque, it can be with a group of fellow Muslims. Also, you do not need a dedicated prayer room, you just need a clean tidy place to put your prayer mat on.

It's because there is no central authority in Islam, you will hear many versions of what is allowed and what's not allowed. In the American economy, practically everything is based on interest. Mortgage, insurance, car financing, credit cards. I use credit cards, but never pay interest. I have a rented apartment. I do insurance, because it is the law of the land. I have found that it is easier, generally, to be a Muslim in America than some of the Muslim countries.

seedy underbelly's picture

Macro is correct. It's

IB
(King Kong, 1,113
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 2:10am

Macro is correct. It's virtually interest under a different name.

junky_munky's picture

In my personal opinion, all

PE
(Baboon, 156
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 3:25am

In my personal opinion, all the Islamic finance structures are in spirit conventional structures, but Shariah compliant only in form (form over substance). They need to be approved by the respective finance institutions' Shariah body, and the approvals can be withheld by some and given by others (meaning, that even for traditional Islamic structures it can be a question of interpretation by different individuals).

At the end of the day, Islamic institutions cannot survive if they don't meet the conventional investment criteria, so there will always be a market for Islamic structures, "experts" in Islamic financing, and for the Shariah departments/ scholars who approve them.

For those of you who are interested, you could Wiki/read about the various structures
– Murabaha and Tawarruq (cost-plus financing)
– Salam (forward sale)
– Wakala (agency)
– Istisna'a (custom manufacturing)
– Ijara (leasing)
– Wakala – Ijara
– Istisna'a - Ijara
– Musharaka (partnership)
– Mudaraba (trust financing)
– Sukuk (certificates)

najifa's picture

If US was based on Islamic

PE
(Baboon, 124
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 5:24am

If US was based on Islamic banking their debt / financial crises wouldnt of been as bad.

I work in Saudi Arabia, our ramadan hours are different than regular hours. Saudi banking system is one of the strongest in the middle east due to regulations.

Gate_Crasher's picture

I thought Judaism and

IB
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 7:55am

I thought Judaism and Christianity forbid interest etc.. Well in case of Judaism its ok to lend money for interest as long as you are a goyim.
I guess it's all bull crap anyway.
At the end it all boils down to money.
And Islamic Banking is a joke. They charge interest and call it something else.

In reply to XFS
DrPeterVenkman's picture

XFS wrote: Thank you for the

O
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:28am

See my WSO blog

Leonidas's picture

Interesting article, OP. I am

 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:29am

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.

Relinquis's picture

One of my favourite

RE
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 11:35am

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

Relinquis's picture

Not to derail this thread,

RE
(Neanderthal, 2,186
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 1:04pm

relinquis... Killing the GMAT this December; Over/Under set at: 725 GMATs.

In reply to Relinquis
DrPeterVenkman's picture

Relinquis: Back to the

O
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 7:12pm

See my WSO blog

In reply to Leonidas
seedy underbelly's picture

Leonidas: Interesting

IB
(King Kong, 1,113
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 7:15pm
ChrisHansen's picture

Islamic banking...I'll give

(Gorilla, 544
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 7:22pm

"I'm the luckiest guy in the world, and when I die I want to come back as me."
-Mark Cuban

In reply to Leonidas
General Disarray's picture

Leonidas: Interesting

IB
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 8:45pm
In reply to General Disarray
OMS's picture

General

PE
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:18pm
Angus Macgyver's picture

RE: The pork thing - clearly,

IB
 
Points)
 on 4/17/12 at 10:54pm
In reply to Angus Macgyver
Anomanderis's picture

Angus Macgyver: RE: The pork

ST
(Orangutan, 357
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 9:05am

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

Leonidas's picture

@seedy underbelly: Mind

 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:00pm

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.

In reply to Leonidas
UFOinsider's picture

Leonidas: @General

O
(Human, 10,466
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 12:08pm

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

In reply to UFOinsider
Leonidas's picture

UFOinsider: Leonidas: @Gener

 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 2:30pm

Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over to your property and break your windows.

In reply to General Disarray
Cola Coca's picture

General Disarray: Just

O
(Orangutan, 321
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 2:42pm
In reply to Leonidas
OMS's picture

Leonidas: UFOinsider: Leoni

PE
(King Kong, 1,886
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 3:07pm
In reply to Leonidas
UFOinsider's picture

Leonidas: IMO, Saudi Arabia

O
(Human, 10,466
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 3:23pm

I just had my first UFO experience.

I called my wife fat while we were making dinner.

Flying saucers everywhere XD

Cola Coca's picture

Just to be clear, I didn't

O
(Orangutan, 321
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 3:42pm
In reply to Cola Coca
Angus Macgyver's picture

Cola Coca: Just to be clear,

IB
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 8:52pm
In reply to Cola Coca
Macro Arbitrage's picture

Cola Coca: Just to be clear,

HF
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 9:35pm

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Cola Coca's picture

Thanks for the info. Either

O
(Orangutan, 321
 
Points)
 on 4/18/12 at 9:50pm
DrPeterVenkman's picture

http://www.wallstreetoasis.co

O
(Gorilla, 727
 
Points)
 on 4/19/12 at 6:47pm

See my WSO blog

konig's picture

*jump starts a dead

IB
 
Points)
 on 5/9/12 at 6:17pm

Greed is Good.

Macro Arbitrage's picture

^ tl;dr.

HF
(King Kong, 1,404
 
Points)
 on 5/9/12 at 8:17pm

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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