Top Hedge Fund List

Is there a top 20 hedge funds to work at? I've seen this on other boards and it has been incredibly useful to me. Also, hedge funds are a little weird in that they are rather small companies vs. total capital. So this should give a weighting to the size of the firm and ease of getting hired alongside total capital under management.

I know, I'm useless. But any pointers for this neophyte would be appreciated.

cheers Monkeysama

165 Comments
 

Monkey,

What's your qualifiers for Top Funds though? Are we talking AUM? Recognition of the Fund Manager? Stylistic? Performance? More info makes for a much better list.

The NY Mag article is great, but it's also not reflective of the new market order. If you can find it, check out HSBC's quarterly performance piece on the Hedge Fund Market. It's extremely interesting stuff.

 
FriedsMonkey,

What's your qualifiers for Top Funds though? Are we talking AUM? Recognition of the Fund Manager? Stylistic? Performance? More info makes for a much better list.

The NY Mag article is great, but it's also not reflective of the new market order. If you can find it, check out HSBC's quarterly performance piece on the Hedge Fund Market. It's extremely interesting stuff.

Well. Think of a ranking based upon this metric:

Number of Employees + (Total Under Management / (Number of Employees * Large Constant))

The higher the better.

The problem is that Arrowstreet Capital, for example, has 100 employees. So I'm never going to get a job there. I want to go to a large and successful firm, but I want to know where to not bother applying.

And always, I whore out my resume: https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1zEuVDd2EsL_o9josf2aiSSc0VUDG5…

 

So, sorry. I just remember while my metric is good it could use some improvement to capture perfomance:

Here:

Number of Employees + (yoy%100)(Total Under Management / (Number of Employees * Large Constant))

The larger number the better.

There.

 

That's not what I meant. Your formula doesn't really work too well anyway for a multitude of reasons.

Think of my question as a league table type question. Insert any random BB Ranking post and cull how the rankings are done whenever a league table is mentioned. You know, the whole concept of the whole we're only looking at the rankings for Banks involved with M&A for deals under $3 Billion but greater than $500 Million in size in the Levered Tech Hardware Space for foreign companies outside of the G-7? That's how you need to frame things for a more concise ranking.

Instead of using the League table to rank banks and how many permutations you can get from it, do it for your criteria. Pick a Space, location and an AUM range before you decide how you want us to offer suggestions on potential funds.

 
FriedsThat's not what I meant. Your formula doesn't really work too well anyway for a multitude of reasons.

Think of my question as a league table type question. Insert any random BB Ranking post and cull how the rankings are done whenever a league table is mentioned. You know, the whole concept of the whole we're only looking at the rankings for Banks involved with M&A for deals under $3 Billion but greater than $500 Million in size in the Levered Tech Hardware Space for foreign companies outside of the G-7? That's how you need to frame things for a more concise ranking.

Instead of using the League table to rank banks and how many permutations you can get from it, do it for your criteria. Pick a Space, location and an AUM range before you decide how you want us to offer suggestions on potential funds.

Well, my problem is simply a min max problem. What is the best type of company/hedge fund I can get into with my qualifications? That's why I put size in there - I figure a very small company would be very hard to get into if it was pretty good.

Now, good can mean a lot of things (AUM, growth, etc etc). Ideally I probably am most qualified for a macro type fund, and less for a technology/programming type fund. But I struck out at Bridgewater, so who knows. In any case I don't care about geographic location, business type (so long as they'll take me), or anything like that. I just want a job.

 
everythingsucksWhat sort of role are you looking for in this HF?

Well, ideally I would be an investment associate/portfolio creator role. If I was at a more technical firm I would try and go programmer (HF or AI obv.)

I know that I have no hope at either management of Quant. But I think I could also swing ER, although I don't think that's necessarily want to be. Depending on the role though it could be fun.

Does that make sense?

 

this guys a troll...

bro. there are hedge funds that have 8 people that manage at least $1b.

-- "Those who say don't know, and those who know don't say."
 
nutsaboutWSthis guys a troll...

bro. there are hedge funds that have 8 people that manage at least $1b.

First, not a troll. Second, I am looking for places that would want to employ me. In your hypothetical firm I have zero chance of working there as they're either all self made and have known each other for years, or there might be one or two guys who are related. That type of fund wouldn't be in a "Top 20 to get hired at" type of list that I am trying to propose.

 

Most hires I've ever seen in the industry are either network hires or through a headhunter. Very few firms are in a position where it makes sense to post jobs on their website like a bank or consulting firm. You may have some luck cold-emailing funds but the industry is fragmented and try to come up with a list of places to apply is futile, especially since you don't seem to have much of a focus in terms of what sort of fund you're looking for.

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

Dude I think you're top 20 list idea is misguided. Considering the size of the HF universe, there's no point in solely focusing on larger firms. Any fund over 1bn is going to have some turnover and it would be foolish to just wait for a large fund to have an opening when you could do the same thing at a slightly smaller place where you may get P/L faster and people might be more open to mentoring you (those are the things that really matter once you get past the analyst level).

Hedge Funds aren't like Big 4 accounting firms. PwC is most people's top choice because they have the highest revenues and hire the most auditors by a substantial margin. The biggest hedge funds have a smaller headcount than the incoming classes of auditors at each Big 4. For the odds to be decent, you need to look at all firms, not just the big ones.

 

OK, I get what you guys are saying now I think. I guess in a lot of areas of finance there is sort of the "places to be" kind of lists and so I asked a dumb question. Thanks for replying.

as always the illustrious monkeysama

 
BlackHat

redacted

Apparently, you guys have been making too much noise. Don't let the popularity go to your head...lol

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/_KarateBoy_
 

Has anyone else noticed that the HF brand names, Greenlight, Pershing, Baupost, etc..., are not on the list?

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/_KarateBoy_
 
KarateBoy

Has anyone else noticed that the HF brand names, Greenlight, Pershing, Baupost, etc..., are not on the list?

What's with the surprise?

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
 

Good year for equity guys. Cooperman at Omega and Robbins at Glenview (who used to work for him) both killed it this year, ~25% for the full year. Also anyone who bought mortgages obviously made a killing.

 

Also, keep in mind that if these stats are through 9/30, it is before the big move in AAPL which creamed a lot of the guys that were crowded in that trade.

 

tough to rank HF's like PE. Some of the better known ones that take from banking are Maverick, the Tiger funds, Citadel, Fortress, Cerberus, Farallon, Och-Ziff, Caxton, Silver Point, Soros. But there are a whole host of funds which are arguably better (Renaissance Technology, etc) which recruit different types of applicants, really about finding the right place and strategy where you can succeed unlike in PE where you know the big funds will most likely continue to be the dominant players in the game

 
napoleontough to rank HF's like PE. Some of the better known ones that take from banking are Maverick, the Tiger funds, Citadel, Fortress, Cerberus, Farallon, Och-Ziff, Caxton, Silver Point, Soros. But there are a whole host of funds which are arguably better (Renaissance Technology, etc) which recruit different types of applicants, really about finding the right place and strategy where you can succeed unlike in PE where you know the big funds will most likely continue to be the dominant players in the game

I'm pretty sure the Tiger funds are closed. Anyways, Tudor, SAC, DE Shaw, AQR, Vega, RenTec, Bridgewater, ESL, Cerberus, Convexity, etc.

 

is not a hedge fund, but they are smart guys. The Tiger fund (Julian Robertson's fund) doesn't exist anymore, but he seeded a bunch of Tiger cub funds which still retain the Tiger name (Tiger Global, etc) which are separate from the Tiger startups at Maverick, Lone Pine, etc

 

I believe Wellington Mgmt is a hedge fund. According to Bloomberg at least, they have to report 13F Hedge Fund Holdings quarterly.

 

Thanks for your responses, everyone.

In the case that 10 years are too long, is there a ranking with shorter periods of returns, say 3 or 5 years? Or are returns confidential?

 

Good place to start, but things like AUM and performance can be tricky because of a few things: 1) Info is often out of date 2) Different managers run different funds/different strategies and how these are separated/accounted for can vary 3) Not everyone discloses their information, though the best data providers usually illicitly get data from investors 4) Bigger is not always better

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

Trustworthy, sure - but one key inaccuracy is % of hedge fund assets. Certain funds will be listed with a very high AUM, but not all will be in alternative strategies - the large hedge funds (in the $10-15Bn range, which appear further down the list, will in fact be larger).

 

If you're interested in working at a hf, especially after undergrad, it would be well to note that many of the funds on the list are better than others (assets under management doesn't directly translate to this) as well as the fact that many of them are darn near impossible to get a job for (Ren Tech, who seems to go looking themselves for brilliant Math/Physics phds and is more of a closed group).

I don't know too much either but I think some of the best that take people out of undergrad are D.E Shaw Citadel (but its notorious for a high turnover) Bridgewater

Gl and I'm def. very interested in this thread and anyone who wants to expand on how to get a career in a hf after undergrad, and which will take you (sa positions etc), and yes I know there is a thread on this, but its not very informative.

 

Solid list. There are a few notable omissions that I know did really well this year which is interesting. Larry Robbins is a boss and has been for some time.

[quote=patternfinder]Of course, I would just buy in scales. [/quote] See my WSO Blog | my AMA
 
Gray Fox

It is worth noting these are only through oct 31.

-I find it kind of ironic they have conatus but not Lone Pine
-baupost should be on here, but hey it is only a $20bn+ fund
-Viking should be on here

You know more than I, but are the returns for those worthy of the list? Besides, this is only looking at total return, not risk-adjusted, right? Gotta wait for the HFI.

 

By "sources", do you mean Alpha magazine? http://www.deshaw.com/articles/Alpha.pdf By top 3? Do you mean ranked by aum? It's rather hard to rank hedge funds by other criterion, since absolute and relative returns are dependent on portfolio manager philosophy and benchmarks, which aren't publicly available.

 

By AUM, RenTec isn't on the list at all. RenTec, as many have noted, has generally become more of Simons and associates' personal investment vehicle that a hedge fund--in order to maximize returns on their investments they have capped fund size.

 

By AUM, RenTec isn't on the list because they return money to their investors at the end of each year. They could be much bigger than they are now, if they so desired. I'll also not that being big doesn't automatically make a hedge fund good at what they do.

In addition, the fact that they mostly manage the money of their employees shouldn't really be an issue. This means you can't invest in the fund, making it no different from any of the other closed HFs out there. Whether or not a hedge fund is good has nothing to do with who's money is being managed.

 
RicketsBy AUM, RenTec isn't on the list because they return money to their investors at the end of each year.
Didn't I just say that?
Rickets They could be much bigger than they are now, if they so desired. I'll also not that being big doesn't automatically make a hedge fund good at what they do.
Actually, it does. Think about it for a second. Hedge funds like Renaissance are in the game of stat arb/alpha extraction. As a fund grows it becomes harder to extract alpha, because you need to find significantly more strategies and opportunities. Think about a fund that is benchmarked to LIBOR+100 or something to that effect. It's much easier to get those returns with a 100 million fund than $2b. I'm not saying that Renaissance is a "bad" fund; I agree that the returns are amazing, but don't underestimate that cap. Places that are managing 3 to 4x they capital are often forced to play other "games" than stat-arb and mathematical modeling.

All of this is pointing out that you can't judge returns on a relative basis, which is clear to most people in the industry. Renaissance is still an incredible fund, but to say that "any list that doesn't include RenTec" is not top 3 is just ridiculous.

Rickets In addition, the fact that they mostly manage the money of their employees shouldn't really be an issue. This means you can't invest in the fund, making it no different from any of the other closed HFs out there. Whether or not a hedge fund is good has nothing to do with who's money is being managed.
It does have to do with whether the issue is of any importance to investors. However, I was just informing others that the fund is capped, and has a relatively small cap at that, which is important to note.
 

IIRC, their very recent REIF B fund is supposed to placate criticisms of that and, according to them, has a cap of $100B.

I think it's amazing that they're able to get such high returns from just equity and equity futures since those seem to be the most squeezed out of all financial products

 

sources at D.E. Shaw tell me that the top 3 hedge funds for 2006 are:

1) Goldman Sachs AM 2) Bridgewater 3) D.E. Shaw

I'll also add that since GSAM's Global Alpha fund was down in 2006, it's laughable to think they were "top 3" by any criteria in 2006.

 
All of this is pointing out that you can't judge returns on a relative basis, which is clear to most people in the industry.

I don't disagree that it's very hard to compare the success of funds that operate at very different AUMs. Clearly transaction costs would erode RenTec's returns to some extent if they chose to operate at DE Shaw's size, though it's impossible to know by how much.

 

Sure, I've heard of bad luck. But consider this, if Tiger Woods somehow won no tournaments this year, would we still say he's one of 2007's top players?

Global Alpha had a lousy 2006, and thus they don't belong at the top of any "Best funds for 2006" list that has remotely anything to do with performance.

Also, from Goldman's 2007 Q1 Earnings Report:

Asset Management net revenues were $1.07 billion, 28% lower than the first quarter of 2006, reflecting significantly lower incentive fees, partially offset by a 31% increase in management and other fees. Incentive fees were $90 million for the first quarter of 2007 compared with $739 million for the same prior year period.

This suggests that the fund isn't off to a great start in 2007.

 

ESL, SAC, RenTec, Citadel aren't on the list, but GSAM, with Mark Carhart's shitty '06 and the subprime meltdown, IDK what you're talking about. That list is shitty as hell.

 

Also, is it always better to get into a bigger hedge fund, as opposed to a smaller to medium sized one? Is the typical career progression anything like IB?

Thanks!

 
Paulson & Co.

So what do you do? -I work for an investment banking firm. Oh okay; you are like my brother, he works for Edward Jones. -No, a college degree is required in my profession

Reality hits you hard, bro...
 
Yea, Paulson may have made like the largest bet against subprime but you've gotta admit that that shows some prescience. Also $28 bn AUM is no small sh*t.

So what do you do? -I work for an investment banking firm. Oh okay; you are like my brother, he works for Edward Jones. -No, a college degree is required in my profession

Reality hits you hard, bro...
 
MMBinNCYea, Paulson may have made like the largest bet against subprime but you've gotta admit that that shows some prescience. Also $28 bn AUM is no small sh*t.

So what do you do? -I work for an investment banking firm. Oh okay; you are like my brother, he works for Edward Jones. -No, a college degree is required in my profession

The AUM is a decent argument, indicates that investors believe in him etc.. ok, but if I go to Vegas and put it all on black and double up, does that make me a gambling genius? Something to think about.

you go to Vegas, plunk down 8% of your chips on a bet that pays out odds of several thousand to one but really has a very high probability of you winning then yes, you are a gambling genius.

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/people-who-think-trading-has-more-to-do-with-luck-than-skill#comment-118987

Having seven of the above list (including Paulson) as former clients, I would say categorically that they are top drawer.

 
John Mackyou go to Vegas, plunk down 8% of your chips on a bet that pays out odds of several thousand to one but really has a very high probability of you winning then yes, you are a gambling genius.

//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/people-who-think-trading-has-more-to-do-…

Having seven of the above list (including Paulson) as former clients, I would say categorically that they are top drawer.

That is a fair point, maybe I oversimplified with the "double up on black" but the point still remains; do you think he can do it again? It's my understanding there were quite a few funds who had the same bet but were off on the timing, Paulson was just the guy who had the timing right and I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that the timing is largely dictated by luck/unforeseen circumstances (BS HFs crashing, e.g.). So that leaves Paulson as being one of the few who timed it right along with betting in the right direction- does that make him a top HF in the sense of institutional investors, sovereigns etc. would instantly commit billions to? I don't know the right answer but my feeling is he may not be at "elite" status yet. I could be wrong though.

 

Oh just for the record so the clowns on this thread that think Paulson was a fluke in 2007. HES AT IT AGAIN up 26% vs avg decline of -.75% in 2008.

From http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aNrsOoR6tqPc&refer=…

"John Paulson, 52, and Philip Falcone have successfully navigated the markets and are attracting new investors. Paulson, who runs the $33 billion Paulson & Co. in New York, returned 26 percent in his Advantage Plus Fund through June, according to investors.

The 45-year-old Falcone, who heads the $26 billion Harbinger Capital Partners in New York, has racked up a 42 percent return for his main Harbinger Capital Partners Fund, clients said. "

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

Why do you say his strategy is more risky? What evidence is there, im really curious to know.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

This is obviously a very difficult question and it depends on the crtieria we are using to judge. I would say there are two relevant questions with very different answers: 1) Who would I want my money with? 2) Who would I want to work for?

The answer to #1 is only shops that have never had blow-ups, never put up gates, and have good returns over a very long time horizon...15+ years. So with my own money I'd be in places like Tudor, Soros, Moore,...having a hard time thinking of any more. I certainly would never put my own money in Citadel, GSAM, or someplace else that dropped 50% in 2008 or would not let investors get out on their original terms during the financial crisis.

The answer to #2 is going to be way different...the three I mentioned above are still on the list but I would add a whole swath of newer firms that dont have a long enough track record to make list #1. Really when you are going to work someplace the key factors are just stability of the fund, amount of capital you are going to be able to manage, the payout and other terms of the contract (claw-backs, deferals, etc) and whether they are going to leave you alone and let you run the money the way you want.

 
Best Response

And for the record I think that Paulsen has undergone a massive "strategy drift" since the financial crisis and I do not see him as a great macro guy. His returns have been good so far mainly because he has taken a giant punt on gold but I think the way he is trading is dangerous. Subprime was a once-in-a-decade-type trade and he seems to be aproaching every trade as if it is this type of opportunity. For eg, when he likes gold he very publicly goes ballistic buying gold and vows to hold the position for years. That is not how the macro funds that have been around for a long time do it. I t dosent matter for him personally since he is a billionaire but I'd be worried about putting money in his fund now. One of these giant bets is going to blow up in his face and the bets he has now (gold, financials, higher interest rates) do not offer nearly the type of asymmetric pay-outs the subprime bet did.

 
BondarbAnd for the record I think that Paulsen has undergone a massive "strategy drift" since the financial crisis and I do not see him as a great macro guy. His returns have been good so far mainly because he has taken a giant punt on gold but I think the way he is trading is dangerous. Subprime was a once-in-a-decade-type trade and he seems to be aproaching every trade as if it is this type of opportunity. For eg, when he likes gold he very publicly goes ballistic buying gold and vows to hold the position for years. That is not how the macro funds that have been around for a long time do it. I t dosent matter for him personally since he is a billionaire but I'd be worried about putting money in his fund now. One of these giant bets is going to blow up in his face and the bets he has now (gold, financials, higher interest rates) do not offer nearly the type of asymmetric pay-outs the subprime bet did.

Good point. Paulson is down this year, and he shows no sign of giving up his gold bet. Paulson's rise has been meteoric, but that was probably once in a decade opportunity.

It seems like Soros and Moore are the macro funds that most people want to work for.

 

Here are some of the top hedge fund gurus: http://www.hedgetracker.com/top_hedge_fund_gurus.php

Just because they are gurus and have had succesful track records, doesn't mean they are the best place to start you own hedge fund career.

If you look at the guys who have moved on from great firms to succesfully launch their own firm's, some of greatest firms would seem to be: Goldman prop desks (not GSAM), SAC Capital, DE Shaw, Tiger Management & its affiliates, Soros

I would defitnitely remove Stark from above

 
BondarbI would like to bump this post in light of the fact that Paulsen has undergone a full-fledged melt-down this week and is probably down more then 50% for the year after today....can we officially cross paulsen off this list please?

Very prescient post, Bondarb. It's crazy how much things change in a year. I was visiting a friend at booth yesterday and talked to a bunch of 2nd years. One of them said, "I would never work for Paulson." Just last year, every finance person at HBS/Wharton/Booth were dying to get a job there.

 
Awon Eleyi Awon Eleyi Won Bad GanFact is I would still rate Paulson a top shop irrespective of the returns because of the caliber of people working there. These are guys who could jump ship to other top event driven shops if they wanted to. Also, 50% of $35bn is still $17.5bn which is still a large number by HF standards.

If the -50% figure is true, it's probably only one of their funds that's gotten hit that hard, with the other ones faring a lot better, implying that the total AUM isn't in nearly as big of a hole.

Array
 
awpBridgewater is a 60 bn + fund. thats insane....

So the assumption is that it is harder to get bigger returns if the AUM is large right? So, Prop trading firms return much higher percentages with smaller AUMs?

 

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"Kept feeding him dollars 'till it all started to make cents."
 

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