Centerview analyst suing for $5m for not being allowed to sleep 9 hours
Thoughts on this FT article?
Kate Shiber wondered why there was so much hurry-up-and-wait in investment banking. “I would really appreciate if we could strategise how we/I can be more efficient earlier in the day,” she wrote in an August 2020 email to a more senior banker on the “Project Dragon” deal team to which she had just been assigned.
A few weeks earlier, Shiber had joined Centerview Partners, the elite boutique M&A investment bank, as a 21-year-old, first-year analyst. The Dartmouth graduate said she had worked past midnight on the previous day but had signed off before confirming with her colleagues that her assignments were complete. She was contrite the next morning but also concerned that staying up perhaps all night would exacerbate her mood and anxiety disorders.
That day she told the firm’s human resources department about her medical condition and a therapeutic need to get eight to nine hours of sleep a night, later confirmed by a nurse’s note. Centerview immediately expressed compassion for her and implemented what it referred to as “guardrails”, a daily nine-hour window starting at midnight where she was excused from her work duties.
Less than three weeks later in September 2020, Shiber was summoned to a video meeting where two Centerview administrators fired her, tersely informing her the firm could no longer accommodate her sleep requirement. She has subsequently sued Centerview, accusing the firm of violating federal and state anti-discrimination laws that she believes apply to her based on her mental illness diagnoses. She is requesting $5mn in damages.
Junior analyst’s lawsuit against top bank puts Wall Street hours on trial - https://on.ft.com/3umdqhM via @FT
Lmfao according to her LinkedIn she lasted 3 months at Centerview
Was just reading this. I don't know employment law enough to know if she has a case but I love the little answer at the end from a CVP executive. Basically said, "She should've known what she got into because everyone else does."
I reckon we'll see more of these cases over time.
Well, if it was not clearly stated in the employment contract, then assumptions or priors are baseless. She has a case and can win.
The only thing that can be dismissed is the disability lawsuit she filed for New York, given she neither worked nor lived in NYC.
From what I've seen, many finance job contracts have a little clause that says "work hours according to business needs" or something like that.
Would that affect it? Then it would be a case of proving that IB hours are necessary. Based on FT comments, that's a tough ask tbf.
seems so:
https://www.rubinfortunato.com/article/out-of-state-out-of-luck-new-yor…
In a recent case out of the Southern District of New York – Shiber v. Centerview Partners LLC, 21 Civ. 3649 (ER) (S.D.N.Y. Apr. 20, 2022) – the court was faced with the question of whether a resident of New Jersey, who worked solely in New Jersey due to the COVID-19 pandemic for a New York company, could assert employment claims under the New York City Human Rights Law or the New York State Human Rights Law. The court applied the long-standing “impact” requirement and ruled that she could not maintain such claims.
Thank you Diversity Recruiting.
this isnt even a diversity hire, at least diversity kids have previous internship experience. this is 100% a nepo hire...
Women are considered diversity, that is why firms target hiring 1/2 of the new analysts as females
Why would this be diversity recruitment? I'm not sure why someone complaining about the working hours would make them a diversity hire
LOL
She's white, went to Hotchkiss for highschool, and was in varsity Sailing. But sure, keep being a bigot dude.
SHE is already being at advantage. Hit these female quotas.
This is literally the exact profile of your average diversity hire lmfaoooo I worked at a firm doing a diversity recruitment drive for women specifically and they literally just hired 3 or 4 white chick interns, all from the Harvard LAX team
If you’re female, you still qualify for diversity quotas in business and finance. I got scholarships and diversity recruiting invites even though my parents bring in 7 figures
Actually, old thread, but I knew this girl at Dartmouth. She was, on paper, Native American.
I tried at one point to get accommodation to be able to sleep 7 hours per day as associate when not on live projects. The bank went bonkers even though I explained it was only temporary as was switching between meds and needed extra rest, and got all appropriate approvals etc. Overall, being quite mentally challenged myself, due to family history, I am symphatetic to her partially, but then, if you already know, you struggle with anything less than 9hours of sleep - just do not go to the top bank, and settle for some jobs in finance that are more WLB oriented. Given how long they kept her, and tried to accommodate, I do not think there is that much of case, but looking forward to see what US courts will decide.
I feel for her but trying this only 3 weeks into the job... she seriously had no idea what she was getting into...?
Might be a tough sell, the ADA law only allows accommodations that are "reasonable" for the job. It specifically prohibits "special treatment" which this clearly would be. I'm sure they will settle out of court and never get to this point, but this accommodation essentially means they have to re-staff all her projects past midnight. CVP probably should have offered her an internal transfer.
Looks like she is now on her 4th job since graduating 3ish years ago...
Low key hoping that she’ll win, but also acknowledging that it is more realistic that she won’t.
Why would u hope that she wins when everyone and their mother knows IB is demending. She's just mad she couldn't handle it.
Who cares? Her winning is better for juniors in general.
You are right!
If she was protected by the FMLA / ADA, she will win. Employment law is very interesting.
Not necessarily. FMLA does not apply here as that relates to unpaid leave and she wasn't even eligible for FMLA given her short tenure... ADA is a maybe but this is no slam-dunk.
CVP will likely just settle this, but if they fight it they do have a case, assuming they did the documentation correctly on their end. For ADA it has to be a reasonable accommodation for the job and not considered special treatment. Her not working nights would significantly impact the other juniors' workloads.
"Depending on the nature of the work assignment and operational requirements, changes to work schedules and hours may be a reasonable accommodation as long as it does not result in an undue hardship."
https://odr.dc.gov/book/manual-accommodating-employees-disabilities/typ…;
What’s tough is that they accommodated her and then terminated her at the same point that they terminated her accommodation. One would think they would keep the employment despite terminating the accommodation.
She won’t qualify for FMLA due to the tenor of her employment. Still hope she wins- I’m beyond any of this but things need to get better and I wouldn’t send my son through this BS.
As easy as it is to make fun of her and wonder why she went into this role (which is all completely fair), everyone here should be hoping she wins - would be a phenomenal precedent for protecting junior bankers and improve all of our lives. I’m sure it’s unlikely but I can hope…
I wanted to write the same! This would be a good lesson for all the shops
I hope she loses and gets humiliated. I, for one, frequently wet my pants dreaming about work-induced sleep deprivation
Don't you think bonuses would take a big hit? Might as well join the soviet union and rename the street to Red Finance Avenue at this point
Not one bit. As much as people like to signal that IB is not all about the money and it’s about the exits, the prestige, the work, the insert whatever people say, we all know that cash is king. If IB paid you $100k flat I think talent would be hard to come by. I’m not saying that banks couldn’t find people but I am saying they wouldn’t find the top people.
The only way investment banks can attract top talent is by paying for it. If banks stopped cutting checks regardless of the hours worked then the shift to tech and other high paying careers would be quite dramatic. This would leave IB hurting for talent. They need top talent at the analyst level to continue to fuel the pipeline of analyst to MD
Most investment bankers aren't really doing productive work from 7 am through to 4am every day. You're smoking crack if you think that the job actually requires you to work every single hour of every single day.
Maybe, but fingers crossed for significant boost of per-hour rate
It will not help because there will be always people who just love to work longer hours. During my analyst years, a bunch of fellow analysts tried to limit the hours by just automating a lot of things and asking for advanced instructions. Seniors actually were happy to embark on track but there were just a few guys who prefer to work extra hard to keep their cloud of being the best. Sadly, this is competitive sport not team based
Total speculation on my part, but I would not be surprised if CVP initially told her it was okay with the intention of firing her from that moment but gave her the few weeks just to show that they legally did try to me accommodating.
No, everyone should not. The only realistic conclusion of lower working hours is lower pay. Clients hire investment banks to go above and boyond and then some. The moment this no longer happens, clients will have no need for an investment bank.... Way exaggerating, as low probability this suit leads to a meaningful change, but this could be a likely trajectory if more of these go in favour of the plaintiff.
hahahahahhahahahaaha man stop watching TV
As someone who DIDN'T do banking I still completely disagree. Willingness to work late into the night is just a fact of life sometimes and it can be a differentiator that separates people you would want to work with/feel have earned their fees vs those who don't. It also acts as another filtering mechanism for keeping more people out of the industry which if you care about your pay and status, you should. This was a weak female diversity candidate, no question. She certainly didn't SA at any half decent bank if this is her attitude.
Against all odds
First, I hope this goes to a public trial, that will set such a strong message to the entire Wall Street and may be they do something’s proactively
Second, hope she fucking wins! That precedent will open the flood gates which means the banks have to definitely implement protective measures
But I know they will settle this pennies on the dollar
This some top G shit, fuck all these other bots in the industry
There are lots of things that I don't get about this story.
First, why would Centerview hire Shiber in the first place if the firm was aware that she had a medical condition which required her to sleep 9 hours per night. It was quite obvious that with junior investment banking hours this could not work out.
Second, according to the the FT article, Shiber claimed that she could still work 105 hours a week for CVP :
So basically she would be working from 9 am until midnight non stop then sleep from midnight to 9 am? no commute time? no showering/eating/shitting time? No day off all week - in this case literally 0 second off all week? Even if CVP did let her have her 9 hours of sleep, did she seriously think that this kind of rythm was sustainable in the long term?
Both CVP and Shiber fucked up and made poor decisions here imho - CVP for hiring Shiver and Shiver for thinking that she'd be able to manage IB hours with her condition.
How would CVP have known about her medical condition before she showed up for work?
She probably did an internship there?
It's against federal law to not hire someone because of a medical condition...
Either way, her condition was mental health/anxiety so I'm guessing she only disclosed it once she had started and was not enjoying the lack of sleep. I put the poor decision mostly on Shiber - IB is not the kind of job you land by accident, she went through the whole long prep process and FT recruiting at CVP, she had to have some idea of what the job was.
Surely there needs to be some exceptions to that. It has to be legal, for example, to refuse to hire a paraplegic applying for a construction job. My guess is there's an exception for disabilities that materially impair the person's ability to do the job.
Now of course, this case is a much closer one than my previous example. But I still suspect there's nuances that apply here. Most of all, I doubt that Centerview's legal department would have allowed them to fire her in a way where they blatantly admit to doing something illegal.
How did you make partner with your reading skills?
It says during COVID era WFH. And 9 hours was set up as guardrails. Offline from midnight to 9 am.
While the “can work 105 and can increase to 120” is crap, but that includes the downtime in between. Unless she is working while eating and while sitting on the toilet.
Conclusion: READ before you go on a rant.
back in my analyst days I worked when eating (sad, i know).
Going further on your opinion...
I have some lawyer friends who can actually bill clients for their own showers - because they keep thinking about argumentation, and points to research during the shower... trust me, you can easily do thinking at any point, and the more senior you get, the more insights you will get what you can multi-task your work with ;)
clearly she never raised this an issue prior to the hire. CV hires almost all of their analysts off of their internship program, I want to say 100%, but I am sure there are exceptions. I am sure she knew what she was getting into, and then raised the flag when she couldn't hack it.
I can't find her on Linkedin or other socials, I'd be curious who her parents are and what their backgrounds/ connections are, Hotchkiss, Dartmouth, Oakcliff Sailing, lots of white privilege here. This is IB, you don't get into without knowing the pitfalls. There are MANY that go thorugh similiar ubringing and schools and decide NOT to do IB because it doesn't appeal to them for many reasons.
Respect. Hope she wins
i agree that she is likely mentally ill, but not that she should recover a penny
centerview also should consider firing whoever supported her candidacy. something clearly went horribly wrong during her interview peocess
Bankers are the ones who are mentally ill lol. Don’t even. Completely reasonable request
Why? If CVP broke the law they should pay her. If CVP has a business need for 18 hour days at work, then they'd easily be able to prove it. They really don't.
Think it's more likely for CVP to pay for the settlement -- Even if CVP can win the case in court, any valid points made by her will be in court documents and I will not be surprised if many other juniors, as long as they are not interested in PE/HF, will try to leverage such arguments and create massive chaos over the street.
Blair would have to fire himself because female quotas start at the top.
Looks like she lasted 3 months which... isn't the standard probation period at companies 100 days?
Probation isn’t grounds to discriminate based on disability (which is what she’s alleging)
Usually 90
She knew this before she started employment. With that said, the courts do need to step in to save all the masochists slogging out insane hours wrecking their mental and physical health. Your $200K or whatever you make as a junior banker, on a hourly basis, isn't excellent wage when compared to professions with better WLB balance. If the industry can't reform itself, sooner or later the courts will get involved to knock some sense into the employment/ exploitation practices.
the weakness of this premise is that people are aware of the hourly wage, and still decide to get on board
so the maximum a judge will do is ask the plaintiff if he's retarded. If the plaintiff confirms that he is retarded, only in this case the process will go forward, because if you have an IQ of less than 60/70 then there's the presumption that in EVERY type of social interaction you had along your life you were exploited lol
sure but you can't buy things with an hourly rate
d
This reads like someone that has Parkison's disease, becomes a surgeon, and then sues the hospital for firing her after seeing how her issue impacts her work.
Total non-sense and I hope she losses, just to spread the idea among those kids that you must also be self-aware of your limitations. Poor you.
Also, I would love the judge to put in his sentence the following passage from TED, you know, just to wake up those kids to the reality of how the real world works (because she really thought that sending an MBA-type of sentence to some MD would revolutionise the way senior bankers work lol):
Agree with the general message of your post but you sound insufferable
I just hate people that go to courts with bullshit issues, because they're main goal is grab the max. amount of money from others. She just could simply be mature and realize that my issue isn't really compatible with banking, put a resignation to not interfere with their colleagues workload and not let them down in live deals, and move om, but no, let's go to courts ffs.
Courts are intended for serious matters (one party doesn't fullfill his obligations, issues with your landlord = becoming homeless, etc. etc.), but not shit like this or the woman that sued McDonald's for making the coffee too hot lol - those are the insufferables in our society
When you pray for rain you got to deal with the mud too. Props to CVP executive for telling her lawyer to take the piss - should have added "... we call you for the paperwork" just to finish him
Delusional
what the dogs understand here is investment bankers do not deserve the salary!
If they cut the hours, they will cut the compensation
please open your eyes and realize IB doesnt have that much value add other than gatekeeping capital market transactions
Anything past the 15 hours a day mark is just bullshit dick measuring with no real productivity increase.
Hope she wins and all the hardos here can take a piss
Nothing feels better than replying to your MD - can't do it, I have to get my sleep
Those who actually worked in IB know how it feels
The real question here is - why the hell is Centerview hiring a Studio Art major from Dartmouth with no finance experience or relevant internships in the first place?
According to the case, CVP HR told her "that she had made a mistake in accepting the job, and that she should have known that the position would require many 120-hour weeks". Yes, she should have known what she was getting into, but part of the interview process should be screening for people who are willing and able to put in the required work.
Putting the case aside, the real victim here is the poor non-target, non-diversity hustler whose seat was taken by this hire...
A studio art major who attended a fancy boarding school in Connecticut and was a member of the sailing team. Sounds like a lot of nepo diversity hires across the street
She is also fat, that may explain her "issues" in dealing with anxiety and mood disorders as a lack of exercise exacerbate those.
“Poor non-target” LMAO
my old PE firm is pretty clear in hiring that they are a grind shop. it is appreciated by everybody involved that it is disclosed up front and you aren't left guessing or hoping you can get associates to speak candidly about their experience
Is it WP? I still recall my first round interview scheduled for 10pm, followed by a case study a few days later - between 7-10am so they can ensure I can communicate at any times of the day
This is probably going to get settled because insurance. The validity of this lawsuit is… well, I am no employment law attorney so I have no clue
So, if anyone wanted to know; you can actually google and find the actual case number. In that, you can read the complaint and what it specifically says. To answer some questions people mentioned, she was claiming she worked 8am to 1am and only had 7 hours or less per night to sleep. Keep in mind, this was in 2020, so she was WFH, so logging off at 1am hypothetically meant sleeping by 1:01, so her 9 hour request was 12am to 9am.
Additionally, it seems HR made the accommodations, and she explicitly had a follow up call confirming that the accommodations would not be a problem for the company but then 1 month later she got fired. Interestingly, she is claiming that in that call she offered to go back to 120+ hour work weeks versus the 105 she was currently pulling to keep her job but the decision was final.
To me, it’s odd this is coming up now as this case was filed in 2021, but it seems it’s only getting traction as it’s going to go to a jury (mandatory mediation was already conducted months ago which indicates to me at least that it failed, so either Centerview said F it we aren’t paying a dime or she asked for too much).
Hope this insight helps!
Some MD definitely said F it.
I hope hope hope she wins
5mn payout for firing someone for not working past midnight....
firms will get spooked as hell knowing they might face the same fate. believe it or not there was a time when a saturday policy for no IB work was UNHEARD of. I could see this lawsuit making firms adopt a "no work past midnight" type policy which would be HUGE for junior bankers.
yes it might not actually be enforced and hardos will still go above and beyond the policy (like the saturday one), but I think we can all agree the saturday policies banks rolled out improved bankers lives.
hope she wins.
I remember when the Goldman 13 were trending, and this forum kinda iffy on them at the time too. The result of their screaming & shouting about “normal IB conditions,” was a drastic increase in IB base salaries + a recognition that it is important to treat juniors humanely. Has that fully translated? No, but as another commenter mentioned, Saturday-Off policies used to be nonexistent and they’re now loosely enforced.
So maybe this ex-CVP analyst will also improve everyone’s lives somewhat by trying to hit this fastball. Worst that could happen is she loses and continues her career outside of IB.
Pencils down and protected weekends started before those Gen Z... believe in c. 2015-2016 - at least in Europe / London
That’s what center view gets for hiring a woke youngster and then not making up a good reason to fire her. Morons.
To everyone hoping she wins, hope you're okay with your total compensation affected. You simply are paid top dollar to put in the hours and be a bitch, especially as an analyst. If anything, T&Cs on the employment contract will be more ironclad, you have to sign an indemnity etc.
lesser working hours and less responsiveness -> slower client deliverables and "lesser client engagement" -> lower revenue.
in fact, it can be argued that responsiveness is needed for M&A transactions involving public listed companies given the fact that more analysis needs to be done amid the need to adhere to timelines. i'm all for 9 hours of sleep/rest everyday, but i've been on live deals where it's simply not possible unless there are more analysts and they do shift work.
Well, I disagree - IB salary went up and we have initiatives such as pens down on Friday and protected weekends
It’s very possible. You’re just an insecure little bitch who thinks responsiveness means anything in a process because that’s the only variable you can control in an advisory role besides the quality of your advice
This is a shit attitude
lol for everyone who hope she wins because banking will then have easier hours - not sure how you expect to be compensated the way you are, with as many opportunities as you have if the job was significantly more palatable. Good luck competing with the massively bigger talent pool that will emerge if banking was cushier and the significantly higher number of applicants per job will also impact wages. Yes, the top ones will still do well but the law of averages will apply....
The banks will continue to pay junior employees because they have to. Banks have been bleeding too talent for years now as college grads are demanding better hours, WLB, and tip pay. The tech vs ibd debate has been beaten to death on here, but the fact that it is even a debate at all is telling. Banking is no longer the best path and its some that some of the archaic culture norms of working 100+ hours a week went away
missed the point; yes, if banking were more appealing from a wlb balance, they would attract better talent. that means a good chunk of people who have jobs now, wouldn't, because banks would have a much larger pool of applicants. banking and even PE are great spots for people who aren't enormously talented but are smart and work hard. Also banks are laying off pretty hard so don't appear to be overly concerned about bleeding talent at the moment but it's a cyclical job so I'm sure base salaries and wlb initiatives will take another step forward in the next bull market lol
Software engineers get more and work lower hours.
yes, and? most people in IB don't have that skillset or ability, otherwise they'd probably go that route.
Ibanking means no sleep, this is known
go woke go broke. as many above said, centerview deserves this.
Reading a lot of comments from total hardos in this thread. The bank I work for has a great wlb/culture, I've never had issues with 8 hours of sleep (most nights, aside from the occasional crunch obviously) and still achieved top bucket every year as an analyst - to the point I got promoted early. This industry has an unhealthy obsession with unnecessary work and false deadlines, resulting in far too much overnight work every night, and I really hope she wins.
This. Thank you
Which bank and group is this? Bullshit
Thanks for diversity recruiting (again)
Yes she should have know better before accepting the job
that being said ADA disability protection is a federal law, and it’s not really up to centerview to decide on this matter. They should have offered her reasonable accommodation including another role while she figured out what to do with her life
CVP always caught up in the fucking mix LMAOOOOO
.
😎
1) You can look at the case documents on CourtListener here:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59850397/shiber-v-centerview-partn…
2) She actually only worked from July 27 until Aug 24. The rest was training
3) Her lawyers were actually asking for 50 Million dollars -- 5 million for each cause of action, though the first 6 causes of action were thrown out by the courts.
4) Her case seems weak. The NJLAD and NYCHRL are basically extortion mechanisms where low-quality disgruntled workers team up with a lawyer whose job is to run up the legal bills and harass the defendants. The settlement demands are typically 90% of the cost of the most expensive discovery/jury trial the lawyer thinks they can get away with, or the value of the business, whichever is lower. This has nothing to do with justice.
The goal of the extortion lawyers is to run up the cost of the case as high as possible, and, at the end, if they get a technical win, apply for fee shifting. So the defendants could pay 500k to the lawyers and 30k to her. This has very little to do with her right now.
5) They do have a strong defense. They've filed summary judgement requests, and we should see if the rest of her case gets thrown out.
Anyone figured out what she's doing now?
She got a studio art and quantitative social studies degree. She's doing art now. Guess it is nice to have rich parents.
Stop pulling things out of your ass. She’s on the Finance team at Google now. Why lie about something you can easily look up?
She’s obviously bright but IB wasn’t the right move for her.
https://studioart.dartmouth.edu/news/2020/05/2020-art-awards-recipients
"Kathryn Shiber - Kate Shiber was born and raised in New Jersey and graduated from The Hotchkiss School in 2016. She majored in both Studio Art and Quantitative Social Sciences (Honors). Within Studio Art, Kate concentrated in drawing and painting. She also enjoys photography. After graduation, Kate will move to NYC to continue her art and to work for investment bank Centerview Partners."
Not sure where the finance google thing came from. It says she's a realtor now
http://katesrealtor.com/index.php/15c42-web-agency-gb-about-us/
"An analytical and creative thinker, Kate studied Quantitative Social Science and Studio Art at Dartmouth College. She has worked in Investment Banking, Marketing, and Private Equity."
Her Linkedin appears to be down or at least fairly hidden, but she is at Google. It was up when this article broke
Also mentioned in a few articles "Shiber, who now works no later than 8pm in strategy for Google, is suing the boutique firm for $5m."
https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/2023/11/working-hours-centerview…;
1. The article literally says she works at Google now
2. I found her LinkedIn in 10 seconds
I hope she wins. Then everyone in banking can get a 9-hour good sleep. So that they ain’t all crying and whining about hours
Suing your bank is going to become is going to become the new hot exit. PE is so 2022
“As I exit from ibanking analyst at Centerview, I’m honored to receive the following prestigious offer: 5 million dollar court settlement !!! I’m so grateful for people who supported me through this journey — big thanks to my attorney @Tom, and even bigger thanks to my VP @ Jerry who gave me the opportunity to make 5 million dollar by asking me to work in midnight ”
Kudos to Kate..... fuck Centerview and their shitty brand
this is my DREAM
sue one of these IBs that grind and advantage of juniors for millions and get a nice payout because they dont want the negative news
5million. damn.
Very helpful commnets😁
We have somebody with a good amount of medical issues at my firm. They are accommodated, but it is excruciating to anybody else on their deal team because they are frequently absent so everybody else takes up the slack. It’s basically like not having them staffed at all.
Do you guys not do any work between 9am and 5pm? Genuine question. I can’t imagine the marginal productivity decrease from not working from 7pm-1am is equivalent to not having them do any work at all during the day.
You obviously haven’t worked in this industry, but yes, if there is a lot of work to do you’re busy as hell all day and all night, however it is a sick industry that takes pride in grinding for grinds sake. There are tons of times when it would make better sense to do things In the morning vs having junior people suffer in the evening, but unfortunately that’s not how the culture is. Also sometimes, which you allude to you will have light things to do or nothing at all just to be staffed on a project between 5-9pm which will ruin your evening into the wee hours of the morning and kill optimal productivity until you get time to adequately rest.
Is she correct about the insane level of inefficiency and nonsense work in banking? Yes.
Should she have been aware of that going in and considered a different career? Also yes.
I hope this happens, PE salaries would double overnight in order to stop the inevitable mass return back to banking if they actually have to let analysts sleep nine hours
looks like she’s at Google now, if she could get a job at Google why did she settle for Centerview initially…
What, how did she get into Google ? Isn’t Google on freeze ?
Honestly it's better if she losses. If she wins and it becomes precedent, banks will have a hard limit on time they get out of employees. To offset this they'll hire more, but also cut comp, especially at publicly traded firms. Overall turnover would drop too since people would be more tolerant of the hours, so upwards progression would drop too. Before you know it, this becomes a much less lucrative career
This! If she wins the only way to keep the work going is to hire more people, the bonus pool stays the same so bonuses become much lower, before long this career path looks like any other corporate job
IB is one the last cons out there in my opinion, literally the only required skill is having a strong work ethic and that's why we get paid a ridiculous amount of money, once you take away the long hours it's not like bankers are doing anything stupidly complex that would be a barrier for people to enter the industry
I personally hope she loses and this gets buried
She will probably settle for like 1mil (Super ded fkn srs).
Centerview will offer 500k(a normal associate/vp bonus).
They will center at 1mm, settle, and she will sign an nda.
The comment thread here is pathetic. We create laws to protect workers from abuse. The number of people here foaming at the mouth ready to work 120/week making useless PowerPoint slides for mega corporations is absurd and sad. This isn’t 1982 when you work 100hrs at a bank and have a look at being paid $1mm.. top bucket analysts are getting like $50k-$70k right now which is like next to nothing when starter homes in hcol cities have 300k down payments lol. You could work in like entry level sales for 50/week and get paid more. Evolve or die - with all the boomers refusing to get with the times and modernize their workflows, these banks are clearly picking die. Nobody remembers the laborers who died hauling rock and were buried in the Great Wall and nobody is gonna remember some college grad working 120hours a week chiseling out a model in the middle of the night for some no name shitco.
I did my time in top banking and I remember it being a graveyard of low talent dickheads who nobody wanted to hire and were therefore forced to stick out these hellholes. Seeing the 22-year-olds on here compete over who can be the bigger tool just makes me sad for the world.
I hope she wins and the jury is revolted by how depraved these faceless corporate jobs have become.
I have some questions for / about Dartmouth.
I'm conflicted on this. I went to a target (Penn) and I'm a first Gen immigrant. I'm a smart, clever, personable guy that would be on top of any interviewer's offer list. I was also raised in NYC and could have easily started my career there by simply living with my parents, with less risk or pressure compared to transplants. My point is, getting a good IB job would be relatively easy for me.
But I'd get stressed out from the IB work style and I also have a congenital gastrointestinal disorder that isn't crippling by any means, but it requires me to spend more time on the toilet than most, and would undoubtedly be exacerbated by the long work hours/lack of routine. I spent considerable amounts of time at the gym as a treatment for it. The IB life just wasn't for me, so I decided to pursue other fields that better accommodate my preferences for work styles. I saw how hard my Wharton friends worked during their internships and it just wasn't appealing to me. In contrast, I found that careers in civil & environmental engineering are perfect for me because they offer relatively low hours and a healthy dose of physical activity from site visits which suit my lifestyle and health condition quite well.
I don't quite understand this mindset of being entitled to a job if you can't meet the physical requirements of it. That's like saying that you want to be a lineman but you're confined to a wheelchair, so you can't be allowed to climb unto electrical poles. Or you want to be an underwater welder but you can't swim and you're pathologically terrified of deep water. Or you want to be a surgeon but you faint at the sight of blood/viscera. At some point, you just have to come to terms that you're not suitable for the core elements of a specific job.
From my outside understanding, the core element of banking is a tolerance for consistently long, unpredictable hours. The smartest people I know went into engineering or became academics - fields where excellent problem solving and analytical skills are privileged over superhuman work ethic. But the hardest working people I know went into banking.
I don't believe that a 21 year old at Dartmouth hired for a full time role at an EB had zero exposure to the banking lifestyle prior to this and didn't know what she was getting into. In my opinion, she doesn't have a case.
If this lawsuit is successful, it could spell the doom of banking in general, because salaries would plummet as banks hire way more staff in order to accommodate a 9-5 workday.
She should lose. This is not the kind of "spokesperson" for better hours in IB. To me she just seems like one of those self-entitled brats who wants money to play and retire early after complaining that the job is harder than she thought.
1) Most jobs these days cannot guarantee you 9 hours of sleep every day. There may be project deadlines, and when my PE firm was selling my portfolio company pretty much every one of the portco's ops/finance/M&A/legal/accounting were pulling the midnight oil and fulfilling client requests amongst other stuff. It's hard to get a guarantee even in tech when you're on call, much less a job in M&A where working around the clock is not only expected but often times required. It sucks, but we all know about it.
2) It's absurd to come into a job knowing what is expected of you and then say that you literally cannot do that. It's not just about the hours, but it's the entire attitude with which she approached this job. I was losing sleep and suffering from depression during my time in PE, but I still did my job despite how tired and drained I was. It's the bare minimal of a professional to receive a paycheck from a company to do your actual job, and that has a range of responsibilities which often involves not getting a full, uninterrupted 9 hours of sleep every day.
3) Lawsuits cost money, so no one who is struggling to secure their financial future through a banking career would do something like this. Not only that, but she's ruining her future prospects quite a bit in this industry (would your firm dare to hire someone who just goes around casually suing the company if they fired her, even after trying to accommodate her unmentioned requests prior to employment?). I had a friend who once was scammed out of his entire lifesavings and wanted to hire a lawyer to sub poena the scammers, but she could not afford the cost of even doing that.
So filing such a lawsuit like this tells me she has family dough and is just trying to rip off the bank.
I won't ever support someone like her, and even if she wins, it won't be anything good for the industry. Banks would be much more paranoid to hire someone who won't turn around and sue the bank for such things.
It will never change because of people like you, shame
Between getting the shittest RBC sophomore intern for SA 2024 and now this -- really shows how insane CVP's diversity hiring practices are. Seems like all you need to do to get a SA or FT at CVP is to be diversity at a top college (no experience required)
You honestly sound bitter man. Touch Grass. Being diverse isn't what got them the jobs both were at least qualified to make it past the hard interviews and beat out other diverse candidates. You probably are just jealous you never got a chance despite working your ass off at your school to interview there. It is totally fine to hate because it just means you are jealous someones of achievements since they are better than you.
Yeah you're right, you can bet that every non-nepo/non-target/non-diversity kid is upset about stories of unqualified people being hand-held through interview processes while others work their asses off -- just like you said. People getting CVP FT interviews without finance internships is a hard pill to swallow. Next time I'll be nicer in pointing something like this out, but you can't say that those that get CVP interviews are better than those who don't.
What's the story about the RBC sophomore intern?
Marked. See if she wins.
She shouldn't have gone into IBD at Centerview if she knows she has to sleep that much.
Good sue them hope she win. She woke up out the matrix to realize she's just a slave working for the master.
I do hope she wins, but the industry is full of this kind of girls in junior positions. This says more than anything I could say (she did IBD at Merrill)
And she ended marrying Chase Coleman which quite frankly beats out any buyside exit imaginable
Source? Is he somehow not too old for her?
Just wanted to update everyone on this. Centerview filed a motion for summary judgement asking for the case to be thrown out. Decision will likely be made in February, but if it’s throw out (the request) it means the judge wants it to go to trial.
thx for the update
any update in April?
She wants to change certain legal standing of her case because of some new laws or something. Nothing is going to be done till probably August at earliest.
Diversity hiring. Hope the penalties are deducted from HR salaries. Btw, white females are often top picks for diversity hiring even though they are the most privileged members of our society. Far more privileged than the white straight male who is frequently portrayed as the villain in corporate America …
Believed it till the last part lol
Wait till you spend a few more years in this business and are expected to lead recruiting.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59850397/121/20/shiber-v-centervie…
Here's an email she sent immediately after being fired. She describes the recruiting process, the training, the hours, her interaction with HR, etc.
Absolutely worth reading!
why is she emailing someone from threadstone? apparently that's where she worked afterwards as an "IBD associate".
Good catch! She went there (maybe a summer there before?) but was gone pretty quickly (Feb 21, so not more than a few months). And then she decided to sue CVP.
That’s Billy Sussman, the CEO (or was, think they got bought by Cascadia?). Have interacted with him before, and he’s a total joker LMFAO.
What is even more interesting is that she offered to revoke her 'medical diagnosis' in order to keep her job....
They told her flat out that it was the wrong job for her, and that she'd taken someone else's spot b/c she didn't do due diligence. Seems pretty incredible that it is 4 years since she worked there, and this case is no closer to trial; she's going to spend her entire 20s suing a company that she worked for for about 2 months.
Yeah, so true, and kinda tells you a lot. How many 20-somethings do you know that can afford to litigate against a multi-billion dollar firm for four years? It stinks of Ivy League and daddy`s money privilege
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